So, how is Pagos?

The more I think about it the more Pagos reminds me of the Dynamis Relic hunt back in the Hayday of FFXI. It has all the same ingredients. Mind numbing grinding. Having to acquire various objects along the way (level quests that are difficult to complete). Amassing tons of Gil (light farming). Killing a HNM for your final piece (Louhil). The only difference between this and Dynamis is Dynamis was more fun. Think it may be time to replace the Devs who transferred from FFXI with fresh blood?

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Originally Posted by MuseTraveller

. . .

You know what I feel sorry for? All these FATEs and monster's HP, skills, behavior, coding, designing the instance - all these resources poured into a concept that the players have said countless times that they do not enjoy. Yes, it feels lazy as a whole but it's still workhours poured there. It just baffles me why they insist so much on feeding us the diadem over and over again.

I'm one of those who always tries to defend the developers, I was the one who would pour time to gather messages from my server for Yoshi P's bday projects, edit them neatly with screenshots, but I have so much salt over Pagos that I'm restraining from going on negative ramble every time I think about it and the whole of 4.x as experience. I love FF14 but I don't like the direction it's going even one bit. I feel betrayed as a loyal player and only way I can let my voice be heard is with my sub being canceled. Even then it will be just one drop in the ocean. I'm just a number in statistic that doesn't make a difference between, a sprout or a crown icon by the name.

/ramble

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This entire game is a testament to this very concept. SE can't have a failure. FFXIV 1.0 was an unmitigated failure, did they chalk it up as a loss and move on? No! They burned it down and tried again and thy would have kept doing that until we liked it. The exploratory mission (Diadem, Eureka, etc.) they can't have the failure they will keep shoving them down our throats until they we like it. The problem with this one is they seem to not be learning from their mistakes and are instead doubling down on all the aspects the players hate.

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Originally Posted by Derio

The funny thing is this content is suppose to be geared towards the casual playerbase, and there is nothing casual about Pagos

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who said it was geared towards casuals?

i don't raid, i don't even do exprimals. but i have thousands over thousands of hours logged in this game. i am not a raider, but i am also not a casual. i love grind. and this content seems to be designed for me.

however, i agree that Pagos is terrible. but i like the fact that there is endless grind content for me. it just needs a complete overhaul >.>

casuals who have not much time can get the tomestone stuff. high skilled players have their raid stuff. i think the grind stuff is meant for people with lots of time but not that much skill.

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Originally Posted by Tint

who said it was geared towards casuals?

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Relic is the casual alternative for people who don't raid. It's casual in that sense, not how much time investment is needed. The relics have always been a massive grind-fest, a lot of people act like it's not for some reason, that people want the relic handed out to them because they don't like Pagos. One has nothing to do with the other, the relic was always meant to be a grind, and more importantly a time-sink between patches. It's by design a long grind, even after nerfs. In that aspect alone Eureka is like the older relics, but that's where it ends, and the complaints come from everything else.

https://i.imgur.com/TlVoL2c.png

Some people need to work on their definition of CASUAL.

Pagos is way more annoying then anemos especially when you are just entering it now because its not that easy to find a group in your level to grind mobs with maximum effectiveness and doing it solo is just a pain in the a..

The older relics were also nice because none of them required me to commit more than the time to run a dungeon at one time. I could farm a few fates, run a dungeon, go do some real life stuff, then come back and do something different. In Pagos, you have to commit so much time just to levelling that trying to do it in bits and pieces leaves you far behind. And then, if you're at the right level to make it to an NM you have to farm forever just to see a single one spawn. Jumping in for 30m here and there is useless.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

https://i.imgur.com/TlVoL2c.png

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This deserves a fresh page of it's own

Bah.

I spent a good hour working on trying to spawn a NM on one side of the map only for a NM to spawn elsewhere. I tried making my way to it and got about halfway there before it was pulled. By the time I arrived, it was dead. I let out a sigh and used return to head back to the base. The NM I'd been working on spawned. That was pulled immediately as well! Needless to say, I missed out on that too - and that was with me rushing there as quickly as possible. I need a break, I think.

Even playing the content as 'intended' leaves far too much room for other players to ruin things for their brethren. Pagos is designed to reward a group effort...in theory. Yet in reality a lot of people in this game are selfish and it's worrying that there still aren't measures taken to mitigate such things. It's no different to the hunt system. You can spend hours working to spawn a particularly tedious S rank only to miss out because it appears in an awkward point on the map and someone snipes it in the 2-3 minutes it takes to run there.

What's agonizing is that the very aetherites you need to get to in order to participate in similarly-leveled NM fights can't even be accessed until you're level 30!

Yeah, the level requirements on the aetherites is too high.

As is the EXP curve on the last couple of levels.

And the rate at which you get light from mobs is a bit on the low side as well, i wish it was a bit more consistent, even if it's low i at least want reliable progress, not complete randomness.

i spent almost two full lockouts in pagos, grinding my way up to 32... it was hell... and annoying as ppl left left and right, to get a stable party is... hard. Meanwhile i heard em try and spawn Louhi, with few luck just in the middle of the 2nd lockout they made it (i tried to get in the same instance again since i knew what they were doing and knew about what mobs were already up) and i even made it there, but still... the time ppl had to waste for that, despite having the right weather and all... *sigh*

IF they have to make it hard, parties should get their own NM which only exists for them, like leaves or smt... its not about the actual effort, its the waste of time...

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Originally Posted by Edax

They probably saw the train as an exploit like Destiny's loot cave.

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This is [one of many reasons] why I'm so angry. The NM train is not an exploit. (I know you're not saying it is, I'm saying this in regards to them changing Eureka as if it was.) All the methods utilized to create it are within game capacity - all it takes is a large group of people, working together (which, correct me if I'm wrong, is one of the definitions of the PVE portion of an MMO.) An exploit is like ungarmax, taking a skill that was not designed to exist (and does not exist within the current UI) but finding a way in which to access the skill elsewhere. An exploit is like the alt+f4 method of skipping cutscenes in MSQ roulette.

Anybody who has played any kind of social game ever understands that even if you leave a trail of breadcrumbs, having thousands/hundreds of thousands of players accessing it means that your "desired path" will be strayed off, deviated from, and adjusted. Even a small handful of people can do this; take a look at practically any D&D/pen-and-paper campaign ever created. A DM can spend hours crafting a puzzle only to have his players ignore it altogether in favour of the random rock he happened to describe that the party has determined holds the key to their campaign - or, after scratching their heads, hit upon an unforeseen weakness that clears the puzzle within seconds.

A good DM encourages exploration, listens to what their players like, adjusts the campaign so that the players are having fun. That's what a game is - a collaboration between DM/creator & player. A bad DM forces the party back into the puzzle, changes the rules halfway through so that they can't solve it in any way except the DM's way, and forces the players to sit there for hours until they find the exact thought process that the DM "planned for", even though there are other ways to solve it.

Guess which path XIV has been taking?

A game shouldn't be a railroad (unless it's Ticket to Ride). A game should be a collaboration between DM/devs and players to create a game that is doable by the devs and enjoyable by the players. All of these tantrums because we're not properly appreciating their Anemos intentions are petty and show me that they're more interested in showing off their grand ideas than actually seeing what the players want.

Like several other things in the game lately, it's meh. A very tedious grind.

Hard to find a party in the limited free time I have during weeks, so it is consigned to weekends for the most part, when I would much rather be doing things I enjoy more, including the very broken frontlines. People are extremely flaky and self-absorbed and parties fall apart rather quickly.

I also used to main BLM but I've grown rather irritated by their design choices for the job, and the relic is no exception.

And yet, it's still less of a disappointment than HoH was, in just about every aspect.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

Some people need to work on their definition of CASUAL.

Pagos is way more annoying then anemos especially when you are just entering it now because its not that easy to find a group in your level to grind mobs with maximum effectiveness and doing it solo is just a pain in the a..

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I think an even bigger issue than that is that the design of the chain means you really can't come and go as you please, at least not without screwing your party over. I have to wait until I have 7 other people. I can't just jump into Pagos. Then I have to stay there for at least an hour or two. It's fortunate that I have nothing to do over the summer, but I can't imagine trying to fit this into my schedule and actually get it done at a reasonable pace if classes were in session.

As much as I want a relic weapon this expansion... suffering through Pagos just isn't worth it. I went in, got to level 21, and decided that it is just way too mind-numbing to go back in. This will be the first relic I've skipped. Unless they change the way it works, the content is dead to me.

Found a new way to enjoy Pagos.

It involved ignoring Pagos entirely and paying 45 euro to Blizzard, but I'm having a great deal of fun so far.

I mean, you can try, but I wouldn't recommend it, with or without lube.

Still without any cassie earrings for our world population. I heard the NM spawned twice on my datacenter so far. We did try slaying hundreds of enemies to make it pop tonight but no luck. Why is there a rare NM which most people will never see unless it's adjusted. Copycat minion and the earrings come from there.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

Still without any cassie earrings for our world population. I heard the NM spawned twice on my datacenter so far. We did try slaying hundreds of enemies to make it pop tonight but no luck. Why is there a rare NM which most people will never see unless it's adjusted. Copycat minion and the earrings come from there.

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To make you try to spawn it and keep you busy with it obviously they know exactly how hard it is to spawn but it's part of their recent strategy to keep players somehow busy with the least amount of work done/money spend on the game patches.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

https://i.imgur.com/TlVoL2c.png

This deserves a fresh page of it's own

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https://www.gamasutra.com/db_area/im...753/3steps.jpg

Might want to add this too and circle the third one.

Tried it a bit more, some thoughts.

* The "chain mobs 6 levels above you" thing...it seems really tight. Like we were a mix of 22-20, chaining on 26s or 27s, i forget, one tank two healer 6 dps, and it was very tight just to do the chain. Like you could lose it unless everyone played hard; when one member dc'ed, we lost the chain.

* The fates..they seem to spawn right on top of farming grounds now, with a lot more enemies. Twice we had a fate pop and just got murdered because of so many enemies in a little space.

* Were'nt they supposed to fix job changing so you could everywhere? It's worse not being able to do it in pagos because its much harder to get to camps.

* there's only one small starting area instead of two. Map feels very small at lower levels. trying to get to the 25 fate is incredibly hazardous.

6 above is iffy unless you've got a group that's at the same level.

A party spread over 20-22 is very unlikely to be able to keep chains going. 5 above would be far more consistent at that point.

And good spot Marxam <3

It is even worse than Anemos imo as in Anemos I could join easily get invited to the Fatetrain and level up. In Pagos, since I didn't get to play during the first 1.5weeks it came out and I am now still only lvl 21, I cant seem to find any groups who will invite me to anything as they are already lvl 30+.
Square Enix needs to go away from this and make actually FUN content, otherwise I feel drawn away from XIV to try another MMO instead :( And I even played through XIV1.0 and had a fun time. I am not enjoying Pagos at all, nor has there been a lot of other content to keep me entertained :/

I guess Square already has forgotten their XIV1.0 screwup and Players come first and If it isn't fun, we are doing it wrong already in pursuit of the Quick Almighty $$$.

I spent five hours yesterday mindlessly doing FATEs and chatting to people in Southern Thanalan for an outdated S rank. It was more fun than doing Pagos without a full 8-man premade.

I'm kinda surprised that after Anemos turned out kinda OK after people figured out how to have fun with it and made the FATE train a thing, SE went ahead and shut it down.

I could care less that its a grind its a relic after all its not meant to be enjoyable just tolerable,
Like Anemos, I dont mind pagos but its just gonna get worse and worse for new people to find a group as time goes on unless they bring the fate train back or make those bunny fate at least give a little bit of EXP (not as much as other fate but a good filler to grind)
but i struggled week 1 to find a group for level 20 since i was farming rathalos first few days and High level groups are already blitzing through fates so others don't get a chance.

I'm now 35 and I got my first relic: it was a pain, grinding mob all day brainlessly is not fun at all.
In two hours of non-stop grind, i was only getting 1,4 crystal for the relic, this is ridiculous.


They need do add more ways to get experience / light because now, it's just boring as hell, or at the very least increase the fate rate.

Grinding mob is already a boring thing, please don't force players to do it non-stop for bonuses.


I was planing on doing a second relic, but i'm not going back in Pagos untill they do something about it.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

I could care less that its a grind its a relic after all its not meant to be enjoyable just tolerable,
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That is terrible game design. Games you pay a subscription to are supposed to be fun, not "tolerable".

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

I think an even bigger issue than that is that the design of the chain means you really can't come and go as you please, at least not without screwing your party over. I have to wait until I have 7 other people. I can't just jump into Pagos. Then I have to stay there for at least an hour or two. It's fortunate that I have nothing to do over the summer, but I can't imagine trying to fit this into my schedule and actually get it done at a reasonable pace if classes were in session.

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I agree. It is simply not enjoyable to be forced to stay for an hour or longer in there and makes me think of just letting this relic go.

Anyone else having issues finding groups? I don't like it but I'm trying to slowly go through it. My main issue is Eureka in a while seems a lot less friendly. I finally hit 23 last night after going back to Anemos to do my challenge log because I couldn't get a group in Pagos. I eventually had to make my own but still couldn't find a full party of 8 that wanted to do the same things. Luckily we got group of about six to work together on our challenge log. This was during prime time hours. This is going to be very difficult for people to catch up even with the challenge log.

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Originally Posted by RukiaFae

Anyone else having issues finding groups? I don't like it but I'm trying to slowly go through it. My main issue is Eureka in a while seems a lot less friendly. I finally hit 23 last night after going back to Anemos to do my challenge log because I couldn't get a group in Pagos. I eventually had to make my own but still couldn't find a full party of 8 that wanted to do the same things. Luckily we got group of about six to work together on our challenge log. This was during prime time hours. This is going to be very difficult for people to catch up even with the challenge log.

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Yes its hard to find a party if you are not 30+ because this content is already over a week old. I don't even want to think about the poor souls who go into pagos in a month or later.

My Pagos experience today as lvl 25 : get a party to kill lvl 31 mobs, die 4-5 times on the way, have everyone distracted on the first pull and party wipe. Eat the penalty to go raise the party, delevel to 24, get beaten to the punch for the raise, die on the way anyway. Got raised but then FATE spawns at the other side of the map. Get in time for it, get some exp back but then party disbands.

Real fun for masochists. Even in FFXI we had prism powders/sneak oils to navigate dangerous areas. I think I'll pass on the relic this time even though I got ARR and Heavensward ones...

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

That is terrible game design. Games you pay a subscription to are supposed to be fun, not "tolerable".

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but the sensation of finishing a relic is nice and a good feeling
the opposite of "its not about the destination its the journey along the way"

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Originally Posted by Duskane

but the sensation of finishing a relic is nice and a good feeling
the opposite of "its not about the destination its the journey along the way"

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But there is something wrong if the relic is a braindead grind without any form of diversity. Take a look at the old relics, they had some really tedious steps but they also had some steps that had diversity and weren't as annoying. This now is just tedious.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

but the sensation of finishing a relic is nice and a good feeling
the opposite of "its not about the destination its the journey along the way"

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A nice and good feeling is finally clearing Kefka Savage with your main group of friends (we're mostly casual).
If I genuinely don't enjoy something and get the reward for finally beating/completing it, I don't feel good. I still feel frustrated. "That was dumb. I did not like this at all."

If Pagos was just Anemos 2.0 and then some (page 54 I mentioned a couple of things), it would be fine. Levelling up would be bearable and going afk for one reason or another wouldn't cause parties to break the chain... also reduce the heatwaves. Please SE.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

but the sensation of finishing a relic is nice and a good feeling
the opposite of "its not about the destination its the journey along the way"

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Just to let you know on something. It took me about 80 hours of prog to clear Ultimate Refrain: Ultima. Now it takes me 1 hour to reclear to get a second weapon. It's probably faster to get 1 relic from Pagos than clearing UwU. But if you take the silly time it takes for me to reclear, on the long run. It'll take me less time for obtain, stronger, more prestigious weapons. Outside of the WHM relic, there's none that can be currently be used and you can be sure Alphascape savage WILL drop 405 iLevel weapons and your relic won't be 405 for a very long time.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Just to let you know on something. It took me about 80 hours of prog to clear Ultimate Refrain: Ultima. Now it takes me 1 hour to reclear to get a second weapon. It's probably faster to get 1 relic from Pagos than clearing UwU. But if you take the silly time it takes for me to reclear, on the long run. It'll take me less time for obtain, stronger, more prestigious weapons. Outside of the WHM relic, there's none that can be currently be used and you can be sure Alphascape savage WILL drop 405 iLevel weapons and your relic won't be 405 for a very long time.

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Having difficulty understanding your point?
because i don't care for these "prestigious weapons" since they are just ugly recolors in my eyes,I get weapons and gear because i like the look of them, i don't care for this rush to get high ilevel or best gear when 99.9% of the content can be done at a lower ilevels.
I really have no issue with my gear being outclassed at some point because its bound to happen anyway why stress about it.
I like the look of some of the Elemental weapons and i will get them regardless of the stats or Patch when there is better weapons

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Originally Posted by Nestama

A nice and good feeling is finally clearing Kefka Savage with your main group of friends (we're mostly casual).
If I genuinely don't enjoy something and get the reward for finally beating/completing it, I don't feel good. I still feel frustrated. "That was dumb. I did not like this at all."

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i feel the exactly opposite. after i have beaten my head against the mechanic wall in a raid fight and finally have cleared it i feel nothing but "That was dumb. I did not like this at all."

the biggest excitement i ever get in this game is from fishing. it's RNG after RNG after RNG, a horrible grind and - completely useless. it also involves basically no skill at all. but catching those legendary fish after weeks or even months of trying it over and over again feels awesome! :O

what i don't like in Pagos is the leveling and the exp penalty you get when the levels don't match. i also don't like the chain system, because i don't like to play with that clock. i want to be able to take breaks. after finally getting a party together and then locked inside for 3 hours and the chain timer is no fun. but i have no problem with the grind per se.

I'm going to give my honest opinion now to pagos after getting 35.

I enjoyed it to a degree. Now there are some things I wished they changed.

Music, for example, is one of them. Giving us the same Eureka type music just made the experience a down watering curve. So the fact that I didn't like the train, brought back the undesirable feeling to play with the music.

I wish they gave us daily quests, things that would help progress besides the once a week dailies. That way people wouldn't get totally burnt out. Challenge log was great but it wasn't enough that people felt any change at lower levels. They needed something to get them out of the disparity of grinding.

Now for some insight, I love grinding and I loved the harsh world they set out. I liked the dangerous feel it made me feel like 1.0 again. So this thing made me very happy. It brought back some memories of dying and exploring and it was great. I'm glad they did it no matter how many people hate the death walk. I liked it. Loved the elementals that cast with healing aggro and I love the agro HP mobs. I liked the dragons that aggro to sound but even when I was walking they would aggro me so idkwtf but its a cool concept none the less.

What I didn't like about the grinding that in 11 you could still grind and chat. In 14 your powering through rotations in silence just trying to hit a chain. You have to be on top of your shit to get to 30. I feel that is something they majorly need to change. At least so you can enjoy to grind and joke. More time for chains so it's not a total disparity or lower HP on monsters a bit more - take your pick. (People were complaining about Carpal Tunnel for goodness sakes!) In 11 you had magic bursts etc so chaining would be easier - this isn't the case here so SE needs to elevate it so it is not so mind numbing of a button-bashing silence through each run. This really would have changed the feel a lot.

Also please change the music again.

NMs should have a higher spawn rate. Not like overtly so but I've been in an instance fresh through the whole nine yards and no NM spawn makes you feel kind of - slap in the face. Especially so when all that grinding with no pause and chatter. It's just not good. It really isn't. So it needs to be changed if it already hasn't.

I do again like Pagos as terms of dangerous and less train - but I still feel like they shouldn't have made mounts so hard to gain.

I have been however at 35 - with my lowbie friend at 30. He does gain 2k exp on crabs with me and another 35 power leveling him. You might say that's not much but considering how fast we killed and how much chain 30 we gained it was not a steep slope. Much better in the end so there is not loss hope for those trapped on lower stuff. Find your 35 friend - and ask them to help you until SE sorts the mess out.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

Having difficulty understanding your point?

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I think the point he's making is that, some (raiders, to be specific) can invest less time and effort into getting weapons that are better than the weapons from Pagos. And while this is typical, as the relic is never on par with Savage weapons until the end of an expansion, I do think it at least speaks volumes when Sigmascape Savage or UwU weapons are less tedious to obtain than their casual/non-raider equivalent.

My biggest gripe is that Pagos was introduced so late into 4.3, that it will have relevancy for less than a month before i380 weapons come out that will be even easier to obtain. Considering Patch 4.4 is due in September. And if they continue to delay further installments, the Relic will spend less time being relevant/on-par with Alphascape weapons compared to past relics. Personally, I can't seem to justify investing the time into Pagos when I can jump into a God Kefka and get better weapons for the jobs I play - especially since they are of little use to me.

At least in previous incarnations, relics could be decent for progression before eventually becoming BiS. But with how late they introduce them, they will struggle to serve this purpose save for those who are progressing in tiers relatively late.

Edit: on the BiS aspect, I seriously wonder if they will ever be BiS. There has been little indication of us being able to customize stats on them. And some (BRD, Healer relics) will struggle for that BiS slot even with 5 guaranteed melds unless the Alphascape weapons are absolutely trash stat-wise (for example, if the BRD Alphascape weapon is like Skill Speed/Determination).