As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

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Originally Posted by xJimmehx

I ugh...kinda find that sorta thing every single day in DF.. Tanks who stay in dps stances and dps who spam random moves. Dragoons who refused to do anything but main tank. Im surrounded by bad players and occasionally do hard content with pre-mades.
So i hate to break it to you but yes, everyone is getting away with it. Not just healers. As i said before though, I really dont care how they play as long as i get my completion. If completion becomes a problem then we talk. If talking leads to arguing, vote kick.

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Yes, but I never said it doesn't happen. The difference is no one would ever argue those aren't bad players. Healers who refuse to DPS are the only job which gets a built in excuse for some people. Simply put...

A tank refusing to rotate cooldowns or turn on their tank stance is a bad tank.
A DPS who doesn't execute their rotation properly or use support abilities is a bad DPS.
A healer who only heals despite having ample opportunity to DPS is... just doing their job.

One of those is not like the others. ;)

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Yes, but I never said it doesn't happen. The difference is no one would ever argue those aren't bad players. Healers who refuse to DPS are the only job which gets a built in excuse for some people. Simply put...

A tank refusing to rotate cooldowns or turn on their tank stance is a bad tank.
A DPS who doesn't execute their rotation properly or use support abilities is a bad DPS.
A healer who only heals despite having ample opportunity to DPS is... just doing their job.

One of those is not like the others. ;)

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So what if everyone doesnt play to 'optimal efficiency' ? Is the world going to end? Im sorry but I just want to have fun, I dont really care if everyone plays perfectly or not tbh

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Originally Posted by Feyona

control freaks.

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Once a upon a time in a far away- - - -



I don't care.



My sanity went down the toilet when I read the lack of aspiration to be a boon to their own party.


Control freak, call it what you like. Everybody may have reasons for what they do, YET. It ain't an excuse to be second rate end game.


This may be a video game where everyone comes to have fun, but do realize you are not playing a single RPG. You will need to step up your A game if you wish to not be a burden to the party in your future adventures. It's practically the same concept in real life, go above and beyond in a job interview and you'll get the position. Be just the average Joe, then don't be surprised if someone else gets hired over you.

This one fact that no matter what you or anyone else say won't change.


I'll always be picked over the healer that just heals.



Let this thread die.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

So what if everyone doesnt play to 'optimal efficiency' ? Is the world going to end? Im sorry but I just want to have fun, I dont really care if everyone plays perfectly or not tbh

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I have fun by attempting to play my role to the best possible capacity inside each and every encounter, thus, its is also unfair that my fun is ruined by people who refuse to attempt to play optimally as my efforts effectively carry them through content. The argument swings both ways I'm afraid, except the person who is playing better is having their energy leeched by those who are not even trying (because its "fun").

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

I have fun by attempting to play my role to the best possible capacity inside each and every encounter, thus, its is also unfair that my fun is ruined by people who refuse to attempt to play optimally as my efforts effectively carry them through content. The argument swings both ways I'm afraid, except the person who is playing better is having their energy leeched by those who are not even trying (because its "fun").

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Honestly by Feyona Logic. I could just pull mobs as a DPS, have the healer deal with the nonsense while the PLD spams clemency on the healer because its fun.

It's not worth debating this anymore. The thread reeks of socialism.

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Originally Posted by Cleftobismal

Honestly by Feyona Logic. I could just pull mobs as a DPS, have the healer deal with the nonsense while the PLD spams clemency on the healer because its fun.

It's not worth debating this anymore. The thread reeks of socialism.

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No it reeks of elitism, dogmatism, and intolerance

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Originally Posted by Feyona

No it reeks of elitism, dogmatism, and intlerance

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Don't forget Lazybones, entitled, and pompous. You wanna go there sister?

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

I have fun by attempting to play my role to the best possible capacity inside each and every encounter, thus, its is also unfair that my fun is ruined by people who refuse to attempt to play optimally as my efforts effectively carry them through content. The argument swings both ways I'm afraid, except the person who is playing better is having their energy leeched by those who are not even trying (because its "fun").

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Well you can just have fun in your way playing with people who live up to your standard. And let me have fun my way, which has more emphasis on enjoyment of the game with people who feel the same way. We still clear the content, but no one feels the necessity to micro manage anyone else's playstyle

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Originally Posted by Cleftobismal

Don't forget Lazybones, entitled, and pompous. You wanna go there sister?

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Not sure what your trying to say really. But you did quote me so I'm replying not sure why or what to

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

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Your right, bad is bad. Though, if they think that they are not bad. It doesnt really matter because youre still surrounded by bad, whether they admit it or not. Trying to force your beliefs on them to make yourself happy is just as bad as them refusing to think of anyone else. So just let go and enjoy yourself. Learn to accept others are different than you or play single player if you cant handle different types of people.

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Originally Posted by Cleftobismal

Honestly by Feyona Logic. I could just pull mobs as a DPS, have the healer deal with the nonsense while the PLD spams clemency on the healer because its fun.

It's not worth debating this anymore. The thread reeks of socialism.

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If everyone is having fun and they get their completion why should you care? Ive done naked trial runs just for kicks and giggles myself(with premade of course). Now your just being plain silly.
Edit: Ah, i notice you said "I could pull" If you're involved i could see why youd care. If your having fun, you're darn right I would give you the ok. Id be happy for you. As long as you dont fail your group, knock your self out. God knows this game could use some fun. Life is too short to turn a game into something stressful and constantly complain that others playing are different and dont care to maximize their potential and would rather have fun. (fun, in a game, i know. Crazy, right?) Really guys..

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Well you can just have fun in your way playing with people who live up to your standard. And let me have fun my way, which has more emphasis on enjoyment of the game with people who feel the same way. We still clear the content, but no one feels the necessity to micro manage anyone else's playstyle

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Notice the word attempt lol, I have no beef with people who are bad but are open minded, they will naturally improve with experience. My beef is with those that don't try and then justify it. And no unfortunately not all content can be done with good people. The entire game is rigged to force better players to carry weaker ones. The gearing curve is literally built around DF (except maybe Savage), you have no choice. Why else would stuff like Wonderous Tails exist?

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Originally Posted by xJimmehx

God knows this game could use some fun.

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You don't find this game fun anymore? Shocker.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

My beef is with those that don't try and then justify it. The entire game is rigged to force better players to carry weaker ones.

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So much truth in this ^. These certain players in this thread just don't get it that of course I will be (and have the right to) be offended when I see a healer just sitting there not earning his keep in the party. In essence when you que in the duty finder, you're there to work****** with the party.

Work.



>>>>>Work<<<<<


http://i65.tinypic.com/14k8p75.png


I see nothing but the truth that supports my point.

You can't get the job done efficiently if you just horse around and do nothing but the bare minimum.


Time is money. And I really sincerely do not want you in my party, if you're the reason why a 25 minute duty is taking 40mins.

I'm not sorry.

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Originally Posted by Cleftobismal

You don't find this game fun anymore? Shocker.

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How do you expect to be taken seriously when you keep acting like that? Maybe i should have worded it differently. I have plenty fun. Im referring to the stiffs that cant find anything other to do with their time than complain about how others play or pass out insults on the forums.. Do you know how many people call this community bad or toxic? What about Elitists and trolls? It is joked at as being the new home of "wowfags" and the like. (not my words, but a quote. I have no intention to offend anyone..I dont know much about WoW) If people were busy having more fun and speding less time worrying about others I think it would lessen this sort of behavior. That is what i ment.

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Originally Posted by Cleftobismal

You can't get the job done efficiently if you just horse around and do nothing but the bare minimum.
Time is money. And I really sincerely do not want you in my party, if you're the reason why a 25 minute duty is taking 40mins.

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Who cares if its efficient? You? So i should care what you think? You. The guy who doesnt care what anyone else thinks and "isnt sorry" PPPPffftt. Get over yourself.

Time is money. Right. And i paid my sub to play. Not you. If time is money ill play how you want all day but you better start coughing up the cash or gtfo because my time is worth just as much as anyone elses. I wouldnt want you in my party either. Im glad you agree on that at least.

Edit: I love how you compared a game to work by the way. Because thats what normal people want. To log in to a "game" to work and pay to be allowed to work without getting a paycheck.

Edit: Ive reached my daily limit on posting. This is my last reply most likely:
lol work. As i said, you want my sweat and blood and my forfeit of my on pleasure. Pay me. This is a game and you're not the only one with certain interests. Nor are your interest any more important than anyone elses. The OP was right. Encouraging people to do better. You are just being selfish. Demanding you get what you want and intentionally trying to make others feel bad like they are somehow the deciding factor in your own pleasure and should be ashamed of themselves. That is what i do not approve of.

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Originally Posted by xJimmehx

How do you expect to be taken seriously when you keep acting like that?

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It should of been clear i'm not interested in giving my best interests anymore on this thread.

It's one thing after the next with you and another. All of which stray from the OP's point.

My statement will forever stand. It's just like life. Employer or co-worker. I don't want some slacker on my team who refuses to contribute above the bare minimum. I wan't to go home and do other things. Not put in over-time that could of been avoided.


Translate that into FFXIV talk and you get the picture.

Ain't nobody got time for this nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Yoshida is a smart man and says virtually nothing on this topic; the dev team just kind of shrugs whenever it comes up.

My speculation is that they don't want to promote the idea of any playstyle that might make the game seem hardcore. This isn't to say that dealing damage while healing is some kind of hardcore activity, but we have to remember that the bar for "you must be X tall to ride" this proverbial theme park is set around 4 feet. This is a business, and perception is king.

Getting people to play support in party-oriented games can be challenging to begin with because of the perception of responsibility. If it's not that, it's that PvE content with a pure healing model is usually boring as hell, and very few players are dedicated enough to their role to stick it out until end game. If the dev team stays quiet on issues of playstyle, they can let players sort out their own meta and not risk directly alienating anyone.

In my perception, the ideal situation is that new healers learn their role as they level up and (hopefully) read the objectives and start to piece together a playstyle that meshes well with all parties. It's the "healing-only" healers who get stuck in a rut, whether it's because they somehow missed the memo while leveling that DPS helps or because they've decided to boycott this interpretation of the Healer Role. In the former case I would like to help those players learn that they can play bigger and better, that they can be real powerhouses that help their parties; in the latter case I would like those players to understand that their choice, while pleasing their sensibilities, is selfish when measured against the fact that other players have to carry the weight of that choice.

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I suspect that you're right, as much as it pains me to say so. In a lot of ways, the developers tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to major changes like this, and since a metric like "do healers enjoy DPSing amply in content or no?" is so subjective I doubt they have the metrics necessary to make an informed change. Couple that with the fact that while we're super passionate about the debate here, the bulk of the playerbase could not care less, and you basically have a green light for the devs to just sit on their hands and let the playerbase sort it out.

What's important to take away from this though is that healer offensive capabilities at this point are wholly intended, or else we wouldn't have gotten a plethora of new DPS moves in our kit post-50 (WHM in particular has a whopping 3/5 post-50 spells that can be used offensively). They're not going away, even if the developers try to shift the endgame focus to be more healing-intensive overall. Healer DPS is never going to entirely go away, and I think the players who think that are only setting themselves up for frustration and didappointment in the long run. Is it possible for 4.0 to adjust encounter scaling so that raids can't be largely solo-healed by a WHM with a SCH mitigating the the more painful stuff? Sure. Is this game ever going to be tuned so that healing is a constant seat-of-your-pants heart-stopper, even at the faceroll content level? Heck no.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

So what if everyone doesnt play to 'optimal efficiency' ? Is the world going to end? Im sorry but I just want to have fun, I dont really care if everyone plays perfectly or not tbh

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No, but you lose the right to complain about bad tanks or DPS. Regardless, it isn't so much I care whether people play to "optimal efficiency". But don't hide it beneath the guise of "its my playstyle." You're playing your job incorrectly. Own that. And don't be surprised if people who do want to progress fast aren't keen about your unwillingness to contribute.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I suspect that you're right, as much as it pains me to say so. In a lot of ways, the developers tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to major changes like this, and since a metric like "do healers enjoy DPSing amply in content or no?" is so subjective I doubt they have the metrics necessary to make an informed change. Couple that with the fact that while we're super passionate about the debate here, the bulk of the playerbase could not care less, and you basically have a green light for the devs to just sit on their hands and let the playerbase sort it out.

What's important to take away from this though is that healer offensive capabilities at this point are wholly intended, or else we wouldn't have gotten a plethora of new DPS moves in our kit post-50 (WHM in particular has a whopping 3/5 post-50 spells that can be used offensively). They're not going away, even if the developers try to shift the endgame focus to be more healing-intensive overall. Healer DPS is never going to entirely go away, and I think the players who think that are only setting themselves up for frustration and didappointment in the long run. Is it possible for 4.0 to adjust encounter scaling so that raids can't be largely solo-healed by a WHM with a SCH mitigating the the more painful stuff? Sure. Is this game ever going to be tuned so that healing is a constant seat-of-your-pants heart-stopper, even at the faceroll content level? Heck no.

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Which makes me sad. At least surprise spawn packs in PotD can be a pretty intense heal check. At least compared to anything not Savage/Extreme Primals.

Whew, what a thread~

While my post won't add anything noteworthy to the thread i figured i'd post something before bed.

I'll never force any healers to DPS, whether it's during 4-man or 8-man if you ain't comfortable with it that's fine. That said, i recommend trying anyway, it won't do any harm unless you get carried away in Cleric Stance. (or the classic "i turned CS off but it's still on" mistake that happens to everyone) I'm someone who used to ignore the idea of DPS'ing as a healer simply because i felt it "wasn't important whether i did or not" to me it didn't do any difference.

Naturally, that mindset changed and nowaday i'm DPS'ing whenever possible, while keeping my party alive and, honestly, it made me appreciate those jobs far more. I always love chugging a bunch of Gravities at a pack of mob, while my tanks soak damage like a champ thanks to their CDs and my Nocturnal shields. If you're an AST main, like myself, it's even less risky to DPS thanks to Noct Sect shields. For WHM well, i toss that Asylum and a Regen and start Aero III/Assize/Stone III (even a fluid aura in there cause why not) i won't deny i enjoy seeing those 6k/5k damage with Assize/Gravity and i'm just a godamn healer and thanks to Benediction, on WHM, i can stay in CS for a looooong time during bosses. That's mainly for 4-man though, and with how easy these are it's obviously nothing to boast about.

For Savage (or 8-man in general) i tend to play it a lot more safe. In my static i'm the main healer but i've been slowly tossing some Combust/Combust II/Aero in there. I think my best dps in A9S is a mere 250 but it's still something i'm proud of considering i used to be "nope, never" about healer DPS and it's a number that i can easily improve. Attempting to DPS as a healer made me analyze those fights a lot more than i normally would so now, when i run that content, i have key moments where i can freely toss my DoTs without worrying about heals, in both A9S and A10S (and i'm sure the same will happen with A11S/A12S when i get around to clear those)

I apologize for the ramblings, i suppose i felt like giving my personal view on what happened to my healing experience once i stepped out of my comfort zone, or my disdain of healer dps if you prefer. As i said, it made me enjoy healing so much more, being able to keep my groups alive while dishing out some hurting. In the end, DPS if you desire, or stick to pure healing only if you want. What's important is playing what you're comfortable with, but don't be afraid to step out of your comfort zone once in a while. Who knows, you may end up like me and the healing experience will be increased tenfolds, in a positive way.

I primarily did it for myself, not because it's considered the optimal method, and i don't regret it. The approval i received from friends and strangers, on my performances and efforts, are secondary but welcomed.

On a side note, to a point made a couple pages back now, there is almost never such a thing as sudden high damage in this game.

Estimating the probability of players screwing up is part of the healer flow chart and can easily be adapted into a full-kit playstyle.

E.g. I ran Expert last night as AST and noticed that one of my two ninja struggled to avoid AoEs. I dealt with this by timing my CS so that I would always be ready to drop it and patch him up if necessary following major AoEs, and I often pre-shielded so that I could mitigate his next mistake. When I knew that a mechanic wasn't followed immediately by another that would hit him, I kept going as planned and just made sure to fluff him before the next mechanic.

When I tank, I find that the more a healer likes to only heal - the more healing I will actually need...so strange... ;)

(Albeit, If they're not new or genuinely new or uncomfortable with the content...it's very easy to tell this as a tank).

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

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Sorry I had a long post replying to you and some other peoples and then I f***** up with my browser and lost the whole thing. And I don't wish to retype it all xD

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Originally Posted by Chevronone

When I tank, I find that the more a healer likes to only heal - the more healing I will actually need...so strange... ;)

(Albeit, If they're not new or genuinely new or uncomfortable with the content...it's very easy to tell this as a tank).

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Well at least you're making them happy so they can enjoy casting heals :p

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Originally Posted by Chocolys

Well at least you're making them happy so they can enjoy casting heals :p

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This would be true, except that most of the heal only healers that aren't new/uncomfortable would rather stare at the wall and watch paint dry for 75% of the run. So it'll probably interfere with them watching cat videos while in EDR...

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Originally Posted by xJimmehx

Do you know how many people call this community bad or toxic? .

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Are we going by the truth or your truth?

Because in truth very few people consider this community bad or toxic. Most people actually consider it to be one of the best communities in online gaming currently. Many people are accepting, accommodating, and at least make an effort to say "hi".

WoW, LoL, Dota. Those have toxic communities.

FFXIV? Not even close.

I cannot say that I am a heal only person but I do err on the side of caution. So dps alot in dungeons, but still feel unsafe in savage. I dont consider myself a bad player, my commendation maybe can attest to the fact I dont sit and watch the paint dry. An elist would call me a very bad player, but I cant help it. I try my hardest, always give my best and I know I will improve in time its often not fast enough. Yep I am slower than some at picking stuff up on the game and faster than others, thats how I understand how some struggle with stuff. I worry that too much is being expected of healers on the game and expressed it and was met with biggotry and insults for even suggesting that people shouldnt be forced to dps. Not many of you have given even a reasonable unbiased solution . Coupled withe the fact that you can onlsee one way to play thegame and its often the way that suits you but when I state I want to play my way , Its because Im lazy

This game is becoming toxic like wow and I left that one cos it was literally ruled by numbers. People no longer mattered. I play to have fun with people not to be nitpicked on over parsers. Yep to some Im a bad player my timings are shit, I overheal, and dont alwys micro manage my pet. Does that mean Im carried? Not really cos the riad would die without me. Do I deserve to play? I thought so till I read some of your posts. Just wanted to add to what the guy said above. Some poeple just want to heal because they cant get the hang of dps same way some dps cant heal. Thats why they play their roles. Healers are being expect to do both at once and some are not fast enough to pull it off

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I cannot say that I am a heal only person but I do err on the side of caution. So dps alot in dungeons, but still feel unsafe in savage. I dont consider myself a bad player, my commendation maybe can attest to the fact I dont sit and watch the paint dry. An elist would call me a very bad player, but I cant help it. I try my hardest, always give my best and I know I will improve in time its often not fast enough. Yep I am slower than some at picking stuff up on the game and faster than others, thats how I understand how some struggle with stuff.

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This sounds a lot like me when I heal. I'm not that good at it and I try. People die, but I always apologize and I rarely, if every, get insulted for actually trying. I'd rather Tank than heal but I still enjoy using a healer. I find it incredibly boring to spam heals so I am always trying to learn how to better utilize my DPS skills.

I forget to use my Cards a lot and its something I am working on. lol

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I worry that too much is being expected of healers on the game and expressed it and was met with biggotry and insults for even suggesting that people shouldnt be forced to dps. Not many of you have given even a reasonable unbiased solution . Coupled withe the fact that you can onlsee one way to play thegame and its often the way that suits you but when I state I want to play my way , Its because Im lazy

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No one called -you- lazy. If they did its because they assumed you never DPS and never try to learn to dps and get carried through content. No one here is being bigoted. And there is not too much being expected of healers in this game, unless you believe that healers can't handle being expected to do as much as everyone else. Healers who try and healers who are not as skilled are not looked down upon by me, or many others around here. I know for sure VanilleFang and Cynfael, along with myself, would do our best to help new healers learn and understand what they can do. When I tank with a new healer in my team I do not attack them, if anything I defend them. And always offer ways to make things easier. However healers who do not try and deliberately do less because they can't be damned are a whole other story.

Nearly every post in this thread criticizing heal only healers are directed at ONE very specific type of heal only healer. Not new healers, not uncomfortable healers, not healers who are trying their hardest and just can't get a solid grasp on heal/dps...

...they're directed at skilled healers who could very easily dps, but by their own volition, would simply limit their contribution to an instance to only when the need for healing arises.

Despite everything i said previously i am a very patient and accommodating person in game. You want to only heal on nidhogg ex? Fine, please solo heal phase 1 while i focus on dps and i will backup aoe heal when appropriate and keep regen on tanks. I find it better to be accommodate people in game rather than argue with them, most people will leave a party at the hint of drama or toxic behavior, no one logs on to become berated by another player.

If you are willing to learn and improve upon yourself you have my respect and i will go out my way to help teach you. It's the players who are entitled and don't want to learn at all who are the people who make my stomache turn. The: my 15$ my way crowd. Everyone pays for the game, and everyone is working together in a group, some groups maybe want you to focus on healing while the scholar dps, maybe some groups want the whm to dps cause its only single target and the whm is more geared. Sometimes your learning a fight and your lower item level so it's better to not spam dps to keep your mp up for raising and healing only since you will be doing alot of learning. There are wide variety of scenarios.

If you are trying to learn how to be more efficient with dps while healing, i have a few pointers. Use stoneskin in cleric stance as a mock heal in case cleric stance is not ready to turn back yet. Use virus right after to buy more time even.Throw eye to eye up on every group pull for the tank. IF your whm Divine seal>med2>regen>asylum >eye to eye before going in cleric stance...you may not even need that much but i garuntee you combining that with holy bombing(stun every other holy) will significantly reduce the dmg the tank takes while doing beast dmg. Use benediction as a way to push more dps, don't switch out of cleric stance at all and use it instead of healing. If your using a controller keep tetragrammatron and other instant heals on same set of buttons as cleric stance and dps>cleric off>tetra>cleric on>dps in case of emergency.

For people who are willing to learn i show much patience to, i will sit there for hours and explain shit to you, i am a hardcore FFXI player back in the day and i understand the virtue and the rewards of patience. It's those who are entitled and don't want to practice to become better who i don't have alot of respect for.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

If you are willing to learn and improve upon yourself you have my respect and i will go out my way to help teach you. It's the players who are entitled and don't want to learn at all who are the people who make my stomache turn.

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Preach it!

So now we're onto the accusations of bigotry. We've had 'bullying' and 'intolerance', but now it's time to call other users bigots. Way to cheapen the power those words should hold.

We've been told that if we want to WORK in a group that performs as well as they can, then we should go play a singleplayer game :/

Yesterday I was in WP Hard Mode. The Healer (Scholar) did no DPS at all, in 230-60 . At the first boss they spammed Adloquium spell, and then jumped around the boss area. This is the kind of person that people here take issue with (I think). Not your learner. However, I did not want to play to their level, so I left... shocking you can do that. Arguments here would dictate that I was being forced to play with them. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head and saying "play my way, you have to!". You have a choice to be lazy, just don't expect others to waste their time on you.

Yes, I'm intolerant of those players, and I don't care. Since we're using buzzwords, apologists for this kind of lazy behaviour are the worst kind. They are actively encouraging people to be poor.

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Originally Posted by Dsync

Arguments here would dictate that I was being forced to play with them. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head and saying .

Yes, I'm intolerant of those players, and I don't care. Since we're using buzzwords, apologists for this kind of lazy behaviour are the worst kind. They are actively encouraging people to be poor.

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You ae entirely within your right to not play with peple you dont consider are worth your time . I never dessert the party no matter how badly they play because its a challenge and plus I dont want to be anti social on a very social oriented game. Bad players are people after all. This is just my take btw.If the mjority were like you though no one would be able to play because people like you would be sitting waiting for your penalty and the rest would still be in the instance waiting for a new member

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Originally Posted by Feyona

You ae entirely within your right to not play with peple you dont consider are worth your time . I never dessert the party no matter how badly they play because its a challenge and plus I dont want to be anti social on a very social oriented game. Bad players are people after all. This is just my take btw.If the mjority were like you though no one would be able to play because people like you would be sitting waiting for your penalty and the rest would still be in the instance waiting for a new member

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I get the spirit of these posts you make about being tolerant and granting others benefit of the doubt, but what I'm not getting is a sense that this idea ought to flow both ways.

In other words, why should the burden of "being social" rest solely with players who might have an issue with others playing badly? What about the obligation of each player to do right by their party? I'm all for cooperating in a multiplayer game, but there should be a reasonable expectation that everyone at least attempt to do their best, regardless of what is "best" given their skill level.

The healers we have identified as knowing-better-but-choosing-not-to-do-more deserve exactly the same consideration they afford their parties....

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Originally Posted by Feyona

You ae entirely within your right to not play with peple you dont consider are worth your time . I never dessert the party no matter how badly they play because its a challenge and plus I dont want to be anti social on a very social oriented game. Bad players are people after all. This is just my take btw.If the mjority were like you though no one would be able to play because people like you would be sitting waiting for your penalty and the rest would still be in the instance waiting for a new member

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It's not about how badly someone plays, it's about how lazy they are. bad=/= lazy. It is VERY anti-social to play just for yourself because you "pay your sub" in a group game. I respond to that anti-social behaviour (that is committed first), yet I'm the one who is anti social first? lolno.

Intolerant
Bullying
Bigotry
Anti-social
Got anymore you want to imply people in this thread are?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

In other words, why should the burden of "being social" rest solely with players who might have an issue with others playing badly? What about the obligation of each player to do right by their party? I'm all for cooperating in a multiplayer game

The healers we have identified as knowing-better-but-choosing-not-to-do-more deserve exactly the same consideration they afford their parties....

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What about the obligation to the party that you enter an instance with? Maybe theres a reason why SE made a penalty. People play on this game knowing that they will need to play with all types of abilities. I may be wrong but I think thats why you get rewards for roullettes etc. Duries that no one maybe would enter. You know full well when you enter WC that you will be thrown in with the good and the bad. Cos thats the game and we cant all be good players by all standards cos everone has different ones

That obligation ends when someone can't be bothered and you can't kick them/don't want the hassle of arguing.
Bad player who is trying? Fine.
Lazy player expecting a carry and spamming their space bar? No.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dsync

It's not about how badly someone plays, it's about how lazy they are. bad=/= lazy. It is VERY anti-social to play just for yourself because you "pay your sub" in a group game. I respond to that anti-social behaviour (that is committed first), yet I'm the one who is anti social first? lolno.

Intolerant
Bullying
Bigotry
Anti-social
Got anymore you want to imply people in this thread are?

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Thats just the thing though I dont play just for myself I help any party as much as I can. It is a genuine believe though that I would be being anti social if I selfihly left my party to have to wait for another player just because they wernt playing as good as I thought they should

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dsync

That obligation ends when someone can't be bothered and you can't kick them/don't want the hassle of arguing.
Bad player who is trying? Fine.
Lazy player expecting a carry and spamming their space bar? No.

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Yes you do get the odd lazy person that wants to ve carried and some actually go afk. I could blame a whole party for that though. I just dont get wound up about it. I dont think such players will be able to progress very far in the game tho

again... it's not about not playing well enough, it's about being outright lazy. There are all sorts of people, and then there are people who can't be bothered to even try beyond pressing 3 or 4 buttons.
Bad players can learn
Bad AND Lazy don't care

Encouraging from an early point that healers have DD skills, and that there are times that they could use them, is better than them finding out later in the game that they're often(more often than not) expected to do some damage in dungeons/trials, since they are so easy to heal anyway. Otherwise the newer, less lazy but badly advised, are going to get a culture shock in the later content.

This has not changed in the years since release, so it's bad advice to tell people who WANT to try that they don't need to do damage. Those are the people who then might get stick, all because they weren't warned what to expect at the end. Had they been warned/encouraged earlier how the content is played with experience, they may well have started to try earlier.

I don't know what more can be said guys.

Sigh.

It'll never get through.