The Ifrit Fight is Dangerous to the Community.

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Originally Posted by SilvertearRen

To me, Dzemael is still relevant.

Should it be discounted just because it's a minority opinion? Sensible people would say no.

Plus, there is an argument to be had about whether or not Yoshi-P should account for this sort of thing in the design and implementation of new content in 2.0.

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see that's the thing. this thread is all about you. there is no majority chiming in with you. if there is it's literally only 1% of this thread. that does not warrant a change.

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Originally Posted by Denmo

I hate to say it, but the problem seems to be you, not the game.

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What I said was a generalization of the negative experiences I've had in FFXIV, not the overall experience.

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Originally Posted by Richard_BG

see that's the thing. this thread is all about you. there is no majority chiming in with you. if there is it's literally only 1% of this thread. that does not warrant a change.

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Human behavior. I am suggesting an optional feature that I feel very strongly about. Most people do not share that kind of passion. It's a simple statistical fact, but it doesn't mean that these people won't appreciate the feature I'm proposing.

says that nobody is willing to compromise with him,

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/up...t-template.png


And then refuses to compromise with anyone else.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

says that nobody is willing to compromise with him,

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/up...t-template.png


And then refuses to compromise with anyone else.

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rofl <3 <3 <3 <3

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

He says that nobody is willing to compromise with him,

And then refuses to compromise with everyone else.

It's all about you, isn't it Feral.

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Dude.

First off.

I would have easily said, STRAIGHT THE F*CK UP, "NERF IFRIT" without ever considering the sensibilities of the hardcore people.

Would you have preferred I led the argument with that, and remained stubborn with that position? (And thereby making myself out to be a true, total and complete f*cktard?)

It's simple, really. I already made compromises to the argument with your sensibilities in mind. If you can't wrap your gods-damned head around that, you're not making a very good effort at constructive debate/discussion.

Instead of being a rude douchebag about what "I" want, I choose to compromise my initial proposal and suggestions to try to make it as palatable to those who would oppose it. It doesn't mean I'm giving you an inch right out of the gate, I'm giving you a gods-damned mile.

If you can't respect that kind of thinking, one has to wonder about the level of respect you have for actual discourse intended to produce results.

Please, tell me the compromises.

I am excited to see, because each "compromise" you made was just an explanation of why YOUR ideals would work.

I see nothing about compromise from your end here..

How about you "Compromise" and level another job to 50.

even given the "learning curve" system OP demanded, OP will still die to Ifrit, since OP can't operate under stress, eventually you will drain the healers mana dry by standing in fire, then demand another "learning curve" for the learning curve.

the learning curve of Ifrit should go like this,

1. Get hit by eruption or dash. You should learn that, when Ifrit dash, standing in FRONT of him is bad. when the ground cracks standing on TOP of it is bad.

2. Ifrit turns red, triple dash, triple eruption. You should learn that when Ifrit turns bright red, his eruptions and dashes come in a set of 3 instead of 1. Also notice there's plume, and should learn that standing on TOP of it is bad.

3. 4 nails dropped, you should already know taking down the nails is essential from Ifrit 25 and try to take them down. You will eventually realize that Hellfire still hurts quite a bit even with nails taken down, and will spend the majority of your time here trying to figure out a way to balance the damage and deal with recovery post hellfire. Sentinel is your quickest solution, but grouping up for Stoneskin and Curaga is also a solution (altho requires more synchronization, definitely not for OP)

4. Enter final phase, realize Ifrit splits in three during dash, and after trial and error should learn the "safe spot" for dash if you haven't already.

5. Rinse and repeat to familiarize and perfect the fight, you will be farming a massive amount of dark matters in no time.

why even use the hardcore vs casual moniker in this thread? hardcore =! skilled =! casual =! skilled =! low playtime =! high playtime ect argument.

I know of SO MANY sub par linkshells who have killed ifrit. I know of SO MANY low playtime linkshells who have killed ifrit. If they can do it without saying /rant compromise /rant nerf /rant we are the 1% - then so can you.

no, don't. this is past 600 posts and it's gone long enough. D:

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Please, tell me the compromises.

I am excited to see, because each "compromise" you made was just an explanation of why YOUR ideals would work.

I see nothing about compromise from your end here.

Maybe you just don't know what it means,

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=compromise

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Suuuuure.

The compromise is this:

YOU GET TO KEEP YOUR ORIGINAL IFRIT FIGHT AND THE EXCLUSIVITY OF YOUR F*CKING IFRIT LOOT DROPS.

Oh and the incessant e-peen fapping resultant from such achievements.

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Originally Posted by Denmo

no, don't. this is past 600 posts and it's gone long enough. D:

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If Doctor Mog could stop trying to troll me under the guise of constructive discussion, this thread could finally die.

You could always "Compromise" and level another job to 50.

P.S. MY "exclusive" club mates:
http://www.ffxivpro.com/achievement/942

All 900 of them.

sooooo relevant to this thread: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Fpig..._order&list=UL

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

You could always "Compromise" and level another job to 50.

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Out of the question, this is crazy talk.

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Originally Posted by Richard_BG

why even use the hardcore vs casual moniker in this thread? hardcore =! skilled =! casual =! skilled =! low playtime =! high playtime ect argument.

I know of SO MANY sub par linkshells who have killed ifrit. I know of SO MANY low playtime linkshells who have killed ifrit. If they can do it without saying /rant compromise /rant nerf /rant we are the 1% - then so can you.

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QFT. There's only 2 kinds of players in my eyes, players who care, and player who doesn't. Players who care, regardless of how little time they have to play will eventually accomplish what they wish to accomplish. Players who do not care, regardless of how much time they have on their hands will always be whining about how the game is unfair and the "hardcores" are jerks.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

You could always "Compromise" and level another job to 50.

P.S. MY "exclusive" club mates:
http://www.ffxivpro.com/achievement/942

suuuuuure buddy.

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In the process of doing that, actually. It's a slow road, though, because I have other sh*t to do in life, alright? Your mentality is not really quite being accepting of the fact that there does exist people who would appreciate an adjustable difficulty option in their endgame content.

You do realize what I am proposing is also a system that could be applied to future content, right? As opposed to having to go back and "fix" everything, it could be developed as part of an endgame content template.

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Originally Posted by SilvertearRen

In the process of doing that, actually. It's a slow road, though, because I have other sh*t to do in life, alright? Your mentality is not really quite being accepting of the fact that there does exist people who would appreciate an adjustable difficulty option in their endgame content.

You do realize what I am proposing is also a system that could be applied to future content, right? As opposed to having to go back and "fix" everything, it could be developed as part of an endgame content template.

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So where did you compromise again?

I missed that part.

Oshi. The real life card.
http://rlv.zcache.com/i_have_no_life...60qi0i_400.jpg

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

So where did you compromise again?

I missed that part.

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Originally Posted by SilvertearRen

The compromise is this:

YOU GET TO KEEP YOUR ORIGINAL IFRIT FIGHT AND THE EXCLUSIVITY OF YOUR F*CKING IFRIT LOOT DROPS..

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If you don't understand the meaning of this statement, I'll spell it out for you: It means I'm not infringing on your preferences. Your preferences. Of which you control entirely for yourself. You can opt out of the design mechanism that allows for lower difficulty options, and still do the content you prefer.

The entire premise of this thread is based on having the option to choose how hard you want your content to be. You can make it as insanely hard as you want, or make it a bit easier.

In case you meant in terms of me compromising within the framework of the current design, as a game designer, I feel I shouldn't condone a lack of thoughtful gameplay design; however, that alone is not a reason for me to completely boycott the endgame content. I will still periodically try the content with whatever resources I have available on hand; if it still proves to be frustrating, I will certainly rant. Every. Single. Time.

Now, if you're done trying to piss me off to the point where I'm ready to tear the steel bumpers off my neighbor's offroad 4x4 with my teeth because of your lacking in constructive input, can you shut up?

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Originally Posted by SilvertearRen

What I'm trying to say is that I would like reasonable game design principles to be applied here, not "Let's make it incredibly difficult for lesser-skilled players to complete!"

I do not approve of elitism.


I have a reasonable party, and they have done well in other content. It's just puzzling to see that we, all of us at rank 50 with our main classes, simply cannot seem to get Ifrit past 50%, and even by then one of us has been knocked out at least once.

And yes, we have been using the strategies offered by linkshells such as BlueGartr, and have viewed the videos, etc. We're being screwed over by technical and human limitations.

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So you resent challenging content? Everyone can relate to your frustration when it comes to the technical issues. But when it comes down to it, it is your own fault if you wipe.

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Originally Posted by SilvertearRen

In the process of doing that, actually. It's a slow road, though, because I have other sh*t to do in life, alright? Your mentality is not really quite being accepting of the fact that there does exist people who would appreciate an adjustable difficulty option in their endgame content.

You do realize what I am proposing is also a system that could be applied to future content, right? As opposed to having to go back and "fix" everything, it could be developed as part of an endgame content template.

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First of all, if you can't put in the same amount of time in game, then don't demand to have the "same experience" in game. Life is hard, we know.

Second, just because "there does exist people who would appreciate an adjustable difficulty option in their endgame content" doesn't mean it should be implemented. I am sure there are people who appreciate drugs being legal, doesn't mean it should be legal.

Third, the so called "learning curve" system is no different than the normal/hard mode in WoW, and guess what, people still complain about hard mode being hard, when it specifically states "hard mode", and is supposedly designed for the "hardcores" who are willing to put in the time and effort to down the boss.

Truth is, people will always look at the top guild/LS, and see their shiny toys, and go "shiny! me want!". The content is already instanced which avoid competition issue like the HNMs back in FFXI (before the change), so you already have your fair shot at it, but don't expect to have it without putting in the same time and effort, yes this applies to the "experience" of the fight too, not just the loot.

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Originally Posted by Clydey

So you resent challenging content? Everyone can relate to your frustration when it comes to the technical issues. But when it comes down to it, it is your own fault if you wipe.

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I'm not denying that it's the party's fault - mine included - if we get wiped. I'm advocating for the option to adjust the difficulty...

Again, because people on the forums can't get it through their head: Option.

Meaning, completely at your f*cking discretion if you want to turn it on or off.

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Originally Posted by KyrsIsley

Third, the so called "learning curve" system is no different than the normal/hard mode in WoW, and guess what, people still complain about hard mode being hard, when it specifically states "hard mode", and is supposedly designed for the "hardcores" who are willing to put in the time and effort to down the boss.

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I've only played the original World of Warcraft for two weeks, so I don't really know what the gameplay features are like now. And I will tell you this, about the bolded text:

Those people are idiots.

If the feature exists, and people still can't grapple with the fact that the mode is designed for hardcore, and you do the damn raid at that option, you have essentially opted in and don't have a goddamn right to b*tch.

http://music-electronics-forum.com/a...thread_die.jpg

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Originally Posted by Answa

http://music-electronics-forum.com/a...thread_die.jpg

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Just have to say, your sig is greatly disturbing.

OT: No. Not going to happen. Not on this content. Not on any content before 2.0 at least.

Continue fighting.

Hmm,

I say we keep the rank 30 as "easy"

and the 50 as "hard"

option for difficulty: Complete.

The OP wants a scaling difficulty setting so that casual players have a chance to beat Ifrit, at the expense of not being able to get drops.

That being said, I disagree. Yoshi wants a balance between hardcore and casual. This does not mean make all the hardcore fights scaled for casual players.

It means having casual content and hardcore content.

When you make the hardcore content scale on a difficulty slider, then it takes away from the hardcore community because really, not everyone should be able to do that content unless they are dedicated enough.

Balance between Casual and Hardcore does not mean Hardcore with difficulty settings.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

Hmm,

I say we keep the rank 30 as "easy"

and the 50 as "hard"

option for difficulty: Complete.

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[SIZE="7"]Oh, for F*ck's sake![/SIZE]

I've already said in this thread that the Rank 25 fight does not follow the same behavior patterns as the Rank 50 fight, and requires that at least one person in the party have the required quest active.

Therefore, it is NOT applicable to this debate/discussion.

I am thoroughly convinced that you are seriously trying to piss me off and repeatedly create disinformation. Stop posting.

Seriously, can I get some moderator support on this thread? This is aggravating. I'm trying my best to keep this thread constructive, and DoctorMog is needlessly antagonizing.

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Originally Posted by RolandDebreton

"Dangerous to the community?" Resentment? "Community Unity?" Do you know what I resent? Inanity. Look it up, it's a great word. Phrases like the the unity of the community and other talking points are growing to be way too common. These things are being used as a bludgeon by the inane to try to get one's way.

They feel left behind, weak, listless, and are not being listened to - they are the little guy. Do you know why? Because they are inane, they are spectacularly boring and repetitive, they don't like a challenge they want it all handed over. They scream they represent the majority, they scream loud and long and far; and surely that means they are the voice of all.

I am part of the community, you do not represent me, and your entire idealism that everyone feels like this beat up lost weak creature is not who I am. Your demands that people that can succeed need to be diminished are as invalid as your fallacious logic that you are in fact the representative of the masses. I'm tired of these wearying demands that we hear you out, while you hold us hostage with a sad, whining persistence.

I speak for me. I like this battle, I like challenges, I like scores being kept, I like getting beat sometimes to get better, I like red ink on my errors, I like difference, I like division, I like hierarchy, I like rich, I like good, I like strong.

I am not a victim, and I will not have people like me made into sacrifices to mediocracy. To quote Hank Reardon, "If it is now the belief of my fellow men, who call themselves the public, that their mood requires victims, then I say: The public good be damned, I will have no part of it!"

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Nicely said!

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Originally Posted by SilvertearRen

Those people are idiots.

If the feature exists, and people still can't grapple with the fact that the mode is designed for hardcore, and you do the damn raid at that option, you have essentially opted in and don't have a goddamn right to b*tch.

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The irony... I wonder what that "HYPER" means.

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Originally Posted by RolandDebreton

"Dangerous to the community?" Resentment? "Community Unity?" Do you know what I resent? Inanity. Look it up, it's a great word. Phrases like the the unity of the community and other talking points are growing to be way too common. These things are being used as a bludgeon by the inane to try to get one's way.

They feel left behind, weak, listless, and are not being listened to - they are the little guy. Do you know why? Because they are inane, they are spectacularly boring and repetitive, they don't like a challenge they want it all handed over. They scream they represent the majority, they scream loud and long and far; and surely that means they are the voice of all.

I am part of the community, you do not represent me, and your entire idealism that everyone feels like this beat up lost weak creature is not who I am. Your demands that people that can succeed need to be diminished are as invalid as your fallacious logic that you are in fact the representative of the masses. I'm tired of these wearying demands that we hear you out, while you hold us hostage with a sad, whining persistence.

I speak for me. I like this battle, I like challenges, I like scores being kept, I like getting beat sometimes to get better, I like red ink on my errors, I like difference, I like division, I like hierarchy, I like rich, I like good, I like strong.

I am not a victim, and I will not have people like me made into sacrifices to mediocracy. To quote Hank Reardon, "If it is now the belief of my fellow men, who call themselves the public, that their mood requires victims, then I say: The public good be damned, I will have no part of it!"

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I am not asking for any of your preferences to be acted against. Do I think I'm the majority? No.

Do I think we, as players, should have choices in how we play our content? Yes.

Am I trying to water down hardcore content? No.

Am I trying to hold you hostage? No. You are holding yourselves hostage by acknowledging me.

Am I asking for everything to be handed over to me? Hells take you!

My counterargument to your statement is that I desire nothing more than the flexibility of having the option to choose my difficulty for the endgame content.


P.S. For as long as people continue to reply to this thread with a mindset unwilling to accept and respect the concept of "The freedom to choose your experience" within the context of endgame, this thread will continue to live. You have been warned.

(No, the R25 Ifrit fight does not qualify as endgame content. Guess why! It's R25...)

We UNDERSTAND what you want.

We dont AGREE with your opinion.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

What a stance to take for a "suggestion"


We UNDERSTAND what you want.

We dont AGREE with your opinion.

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And I accept the fact that you disagree with me. Though what I do question is the idea of disagreeing with something that does not infringe in any way with your preferences. To me, that just smacks of obstructionism.


ob·struc·tion·ist
noun
1. One who systematically blocks or interrupts a process, especially one who attempts to impede passage of legislation by the use of delaying tactics, such as a filibuster.

I think that all of what you needed to say has been said.

let it die.

I'm sure SE isn't hard of reading.

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Originally Posted by SilvertearRen

And I accept the fact that you disagree with me. Though what I do question is the idea of disagreeing with something that does not infringe in any way with your preferences. To me, that just smacks of obstructionism.


ob·struc·tion·ist
noun
1. One who systematically blocks or interrupts a process, especially one who attempts to impede passage of legislation by the use of delaying tactics, such as a filibuster.

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Game
noun
Is not politics.

lol

Doctor Mog stops legislation.

Mog for president!

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

I think that all of what you needed to say has been said.

let it die.

I'm sure SE isn't hard of reading.

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Then, can we agree on this one thing?

If Square implements the scaling difficulty option, without infringing on the rewards, prestige and value of the hardcore mode, can you respect that gameplay design decision?

(People who complain about the hardcore option are fair game for heckling, though!)

No because it is a waste of resources better spent on MORE content.

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Originally Posted by SilvertearRen

ANOTHER COMPROMISE FROM ME!!

Seriously, offer me one reasonable compromise on your part, and I'll respect you as a "gamer" and as a fellow human being.

Jesus F*ck. I am sick of seeing people refusing to compromise, left and right. It's enough to make me want to choke kittens.

Even more so when it's idiot quacks running my country and the world.

P. F*cking S. I've already repeated several reasons why.

1. Learning Curve. TRAINING FOR THE FIGHT, MAYBE?
2. For the sake of COMPLETIONISTS. Some of us don't give a flying flip about the Ifrit drops!
3. We probably also don't give a flying flip about achievements, either.
4. For the sake of FLEXIBILITY. There are people out there who might be able to handle a slightly scaled-down version of Ifrit, but not the original fight.

Read. The. F*cking. Lines.

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2. For the sake of COMPLETIONISTS. Some of us don't give a flying flip about the Ifrit drops!
3. We probably also don't give a flying flip about achievements, either.

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COMPLETIONISTS.
don't give a flying flip about the Ifrit drops!
don't give a flying flip about achievements, either.

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Wut.

/10chars

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Originally Posted by Answa

Game
noun
Is not politics.

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What I was referring to when I used the dictionary definition, was generally the social aspect of being an obstructionist. Basically, "Saying No for the Sake of No."

You know, like the scrubs in every country's legislature that likes to stomp all over the other side's toes just because they hate their guts regardless of the content of the bill that's on the floor.

(Analogy: Gamers say no because they wanna say no to a proposal suggesting that a pre-existing feature be altered, or because they hate the type of player the proposer is.)

Answa, quit being a troll. Keep your snark outta my thread, will ya?

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Originally Posted by Sol_Aureus

Wut.

/10chars

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I probably should have phrased it differently. Certain kinds of completionists. Some want to collect items, others just wanna experience the fights without any care for the drops.

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

No because it is a waste of resources better spent on MORE content.

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I believe I already described the general idea of the programming side of things...it's not a major undertaking. Just a few adjustments to the loot tables, stats, and adding a dialog box offering the options. Push it through QA testing for a few weeks.

This isn't a painstakingly-accurate 3D model simulation of the R.M.S. Titanic being coded into the game, people.

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Originally Posted by SilvertearRen

And I accept the fact that you disagree with me. Though what I do question is the idea of disagreeing with something that does not infringe in any way with your preferences. To me, that just smacks of obstructionism.

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Actually, how about I put it this way. You already have your "experience" or "encounter" with Ifrit. Based on the storyline, you later found out that you didn't really defeat Ifrit (R30).

Thus the R50 "Hyper" encounter was designed for "harcores" who are willing to put it the time and effort and really vanquish Ifrit once and for all. Thus your "wants" and "needs" do in fact infringes on my preferences of not having an alternative dumbed down/adjusted Ifrit for those who aren't willing to put in the same amount of work.

Because that wouldn't do Ifrit justice, the "real defeat" of Ifrit should be hard (if you can call it hard) and challenging. If you do not posses the same skill level and perseverance, you are not fit to defeat the real Ifrit at its full strength, meaning you SHOULD be squashed over and over until you learn how to not stand in fire.

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Originally Posted by SilvertearRen

Then, can we agree on this one thing?

If Square implements the scaling difficulty option, without infringing on the rewards, prestige and value of the hardcore mode, can you respect that gameplay design decision?

(People who complain about the hardcore option are fair game for heckling, though!)

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No, because Ifrit does not deserve to have a dumbed down alternative lore wise, just so you can experience his demise.