6.2 Hrothgar Update

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

They probably won't do this. The amount of character creation options seems to be limited to a fixed number. Probably to prevent the character packets from getting too large. And AFAIK they never increased the size, not even for the new races.

So they will probably say that if we want a hunch toggle, they'd have to remove another option. Or add that option for everyone.

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An even easier option would be to add a non-hunch stance via changepose, for idle. For years races had unique idle stances. Giving Hrothguys the option to just, you know, stand up straight while not in battle would take the absolute minimum amount of effort, compared to recoding every single emote. And it's something they could add in by patch 6.2 or 6.3, not the 7.X series.

Re, the missing ears: I'm usually pretty charitable toward the dev team but even I think that was insulting. Just tweak the frigging hair rigging for that one race if you can't get the ears to play right.

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

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Yeah, and I was quite active in the male viera thread saying I don't think they should release male viera yet, prior to 'fixing' female viera and male hrothgar. I'm sorry female hrothgar wanters, but their inclusion will only be bad for the game, unless they somehow figure out how to completely overhaul how they fit gear, and everything else.. We will likely be looking at even less customization options than before, for something even more niche than male hrothgar! A race counterpart a couple people might play. I'm all for options, but at the expense of everyone else SUCKS.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

I don't think people are understanding the situation.

A) We KNOW it would take time to make Race-exclusive hair. Not just to make the 3D model, but design it to begin with.
B) We KNOW that just converting stuff over is easier, albeit still a mess to go through.

The issue isn't there, though. The issue was them converting stuff in such a shoddy way and picking the absolute worst ones. That is why he had such a backlash.


The rest I can say is just... "I hope he understands people who play Hrothgar do take the game seriously and that we don't want to be discriminated. We understand it's hard, but after so much crap aimed at us, we've had enough. And that sentiment is valid and understandable. You can't just expect a portion of the playerbase that's felt miserable for the past 3 years because a) the devs ignore it and b) the community trashes it, to not feel absolutely gutted when the only content we asked for is presented to us like we're a laughing stock."

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That's because it most likely would have been too much work for them to want to convert even the shared hair styles properly. If I remember right, that's even what he said. It's why they amputated hrothgar ears. Though, as people say, in doing so, they might have made more work for themselves in the process. As for the choices of hairs, there has got to be some sort of logic to their choices, right?

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

See, you had me until the fantasia bit. That we wouldn't have shared hair is fine, a lot of people want race-exclusive hair since stuff wouldn't otherwise look good on a lion face.
But if that's the model they're going with, despite the fact that no other race had to buy fantasias to do it, then wow Square Enix is ten times worse than I ever thought.

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I ... I don't know what you thought this was.
Hroth couldn't change hair without paying $10 ALL throughout ShB. It was ALWAYS the intention that Hrothgar's hair was a part of their CC, it allowed them to make very different heads without having to make their hair look good on each face. People have been b*^*^in at them about that for years, it's part of the reason they went outta their way to make shared hair work on them. Now people are throwing a fit again, so they asked for a final bit of feedback. The options are unique Hrothgar hair that's VERY rare (coming in between large spans of time) and VERY few in number (This is a game that gives normal races 6-8 hairs an expac MAX ... could easily mean 1 every expac) or go the shared hair route, and try to make that work.

Race made from poor logic and mistakes.

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Ehhh, I'm detecting a little bias there. You really think they won't be hunched over femroes? Do you really? :^)

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Yes, I really think that. They're not giving females with boobs a hunch. And no bais, the game has 2 whole races to look at. Neither race 1:1 copies the body types of the gender of the same race.
FV are shorter, fixed Elezen ... MV are taller, updated Male Miqote.
Male Au Ra are taller, fixed Elezen ... Female Au Ra are shorter, updated Female Miqote/ Middies.
Hrothgar are shorter, fixed Roebros ... fill in the blank. My guess is taller, updated Highlander or the Queen's body from Bozja (which is a mix of Female Viera and Female Au Ra proportion/ shape wise)

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Yeah, and I was quite active in the male viera thread saying I don't think they should release male viera yet, prior to 'fixing' female viera and male hrothgar. I'm sorry female hrothgar wanters, but their inclusion will only be bad for the game, unless they somehow figure out how to completely overhaul how they fit gear, and everything else.. We will likely be looking at even less customization options than before, for something even more niche than male hrothgar! A race counterpart a couple people might play. I'm all for options, but at the expense of everyone else SUCKS.

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How niche they are is completely dependent on how they're designed. Make them look like the dudes-but-with-boobs that the woke people on twitter (who REALLY want to challenge gender norms to feel special) keep pushing, even though we know the arvg person wants no part of that? Yup, a bunch of time and effort to please like 3 people and make something less popular than Femroe.
Make them look like some amount more-furry, taller Mithra as seen in the queen's artbook art and murals? Easily more popular than the dudes, at least, and could make a decent fanbase.

Regardless of how many people whine about Au Ra, the females are hella popular and show that a few people online crying don't speak for the majority.

Anyway, it's not a matter of talking about it at this point. They're coming regardless of what effects they have on the reg dev time, so the time to warn against that is looong gone.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

That's because it most likely would have been too much work for them to want to convert even the shared hair styles properly. If I remember right, that's even what he said. It's why they amputated hrothgar ears. Though, as people say, in doing so, they might have made more work for themselves in the process. As for the choices of hairs, there has got to be some sort of logic to their choices, right?

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Then they should let ears clip like every damn thing in the game already does. My feet clip thru unlevel surfaces, Runar hair clips thru 80% of chestpieces bc of stupid collars.

The CORRECT reason they chose 5 crappy hairstyles is because they already did it for viera. Why did they force hrothgar to be left out an extra four months when this was their decision? Hell if I know.

The sole good hairstyle hrothgar got, Snow, was a fluke because they had to consider whether a precious viera might ever fantasia and gosh it would sure suck for them to lose a hairstyle they paid mogstation bucks for.

A more cynical (but, based on their lame "its so hard" excuse, also correct) reading is they decided terrible options because they KNEW the community would hate them amd this would give them a perfect excuse to trod out the now-just-glue old horse of "hrothgar hard pls understamd" and thereby not have to work on them again until 3 minutes before 7.1 drops in 2ish years. Expect both viera genders to get the next 6.2 hair but hrothgar to get jack.

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

The options are unique Hrothgar hair that's VERY rare (coming in between large spans of time) and VERY few in number

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If they had started since Shadowbringers and gave us a couple in between long wait periods like every 2-3 patches, which means maybe up to 5 new hairs since release, with plans to do more into Endwalker and beyond.
Id be 100% ok with this. Because then we Hrothgar Players (I have an Alt, as a reminder) would have these hopefully Cool Unique hairstyles, and they wouldn't have these dumb issues. They would be made specifically for the Hrothgar for their unique heads.

You can say Using old hair is less work and might come out faster...but at the cost of...yknow, the nonsense we are dealing with now.
Id rather wait longer for something to be done RIGHT, then a short period and get crap.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

If they had started since Shadowbringers and gave us a couple in between long wait periods like every 2-3 patches, which means maybe up to 5 new hairs since release, with plans to do more into Endwalker and beyond.
Id be 100% ok with this. Because then we Hrothgar Players (I have an Alt, as a reminder) would have these hopefully Cool Unique hairstyles, and they wouldn't have these dumb issues. They would be made specifically for the Hrothgar for their unique heads.

You can say Using old hair is less work and might come out faster...but at the cost of...yknow, the nonsense we are dealing with now.
Id rather wait longer for something to be done RIGHT, then a short period and get crap.

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Yeah, but do you play your alt much? I have an alt too, and I haven't done ANYTHING on it in the past 2 or maybe 3 years except log on to fantasia or do events. :p

I find it questionable if waiting longer will actually yield anything good. As hrothgar already waited three years, and got those hairs.. A lot of the viera hairs don't even look that good for the long wait, with those gigantic foreheads..

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

How niche they are is completely dependent on how they're designed. Make them look like the dudes-but-with-boobs that the woke people on twitter (who REALLY want to challenge gender norms to feel special) keep pushing, even though we know the arvg person wants no part of that? Yup, a bunch of time and effort to please like 3 people and make something less popular than Femroe.
Make them look like some amount more-furry, taller Mithra as seen in the queen's artbook art and murals? Easily more popular than the dudes, at least, and could make a decent fanbase.

Regardless of how many people whine about Au Ra, the females are hella popular and show that a few people online crying don't speak for the majority.

Anyway, it's not a matter of talking about it at this point. They're coming regardless of what effects they have on the reg dev time, so the time to warn against that is looong gone.

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Even if they made them not look like hulking monstrosities, they'd still be pretty niche, let's be honest. I seriously doubt that race counterpart will be worth the consequences towards customization options, gear, etc. for everyone else. Male hrothgar will probably end up being the ones who suffer the most for female hrothgar inclusion, for that matter. Again, I don't think they should have released male viera either, yet. The only way it would be worthwhile is them miraculously making it easier to fit gear, add customization options, hair, etc.. by then.

I don't think au ra are comparable to female hrothgar either. Unless you think they are going to literally just do miqo'te 2.0 where femhroth are more human than bestial.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

If they had started since Shadowbringers and gave us a couple in between long wait periods like every 2-3 patches, which means maybe up to 5 new hairs since release, with plans to do more into Endwalker and beyond.
Id be 100% ok with this. Because then we Hrothgar Players (I have an Alt, as a reminder) would have these hopefully Cool Unique hairstyles, and they wouldn't have these dumb issues. They would be made specifically for the Hrothgar for their unique heads.

You can say Using old hair is less work and might come out faster...but at the cost of...yknow, the nonsense we are dealing with now.
Id rather wait longer for something to be done RIGHT, then a short period and get crap.

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I got curious and checked how many hairstyles for normal races have we gotten since Shadowbringers. The answer is eleven. 11. Four of them are just NPC hairstyles, btw. I'm sorry but expecting five Hroth specific hairstyles in the same time period is kinda rich and your reaction only reinforces the point reivaxe is making. You'd really be looking at 1-2 unique hairstyles per expansion.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

If they had started since Shadowbringers and gave us a couple in between long wait periods like every 2-3 patches, which means maybe up to 5 new hairs since release, with plans to do more into Endwalker and beyond.
Id be 100% ok with this. Because then we Hrothgar Players (I have an Alt, as a reminder) would have these hopefully Cool Unique hairstyles, and they wouldn't have these dumb issues. They would be made specifically for the Hrothgar for their unique heads.

You can say Using old hair is less work and might come out faster...but at the cost of...yknow, the nonsense we are dealing with now.
Id rather wait longer for something to be done RIGHT, then a short period and get crap.

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What coulda been means nothing, and "Long patches" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there given we have no reason to think that they would do anything more than 1 an expac, if that. Fact of the matter is that the Graphics team came to YP with their proposal on what they can do/ how they could find the resources to make Male Viera and Female Hrothgar just 6mts after the release of ShB.
So from that moment on, everything was up in the air and subject to change. To me, it's clear that "spend resources making Viera only hair and more Hrothgar $10 heads/ manes, FOREVER" was one of the things chopped off because of that and in no small part because of the constant request for shared hair and not having to pay $10 to change your hair change.

Every hairstyle that the Male Viera were released with was time and money and resources that coulda went towards making unique female Viera hair ... I find it acceptable, personally. Every race would want more unique new hair, ultimately, but quantity is more important and no one wants to be left out of new content rewards. No problem with people feeling the other way, but I do warn against pie-in-the-sky outlooks. "Would I be willing to wait an entire expac to get just ONE hairstyle?" is the way I think it should be addressed, seeing as they were willing to make Viera/ Hrothgar wait over an entire expac to get ANY new hair options.

As someone whose wanted to play female Hrothgar since the reveal of Hrothgar, and is 100% gonna play them provided SE gives them an appealing design, I'd 100% prefer shared hair and I can only hope that they were designed with shared hair in mind.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Yeah, but do you play your alt much? I have an alt too, and I haven't done ANYTHING on it in the past 2 or maybe 3 years except log on to fantasia or do events. :p

I find it questionable if waiting longer will actually yield anything good. As hrothgar already waited three years, and got those hairs.. A lot of the viera hairs don't even look that good for the long wait, with those gigantic foreheads..

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Yes, I actually do. I log in everyday and do a few roulettes with him to level him up. After I get the Beast Tribe done on my main Im gonna take him through and Blitz the MSQ.
Then exclusively play him for a while, redoing fun content I enjoyed and leveling a couple of Jobs again.
I would find it weird that Im so gung-ho for the Hrothgar if I didnt play the Hrothgar Alt. Thats just me I guess.

What Im saying is, if an option where there way back in ShB to make these Unique Hairstyles for the Hrothgar, but the trade off is a longer period wait. I would say Yes, 100% no question. Because they would take the proper time to make them, the ear issue wouldnt be a thing, and we'd have maybe at least 5 new hairs or 6 or 7 by now.
But they decided to drag their feet, and then just try and use old hair. Which are just...BAD.

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

Every hairstyle that the Male Viera were released with was time and money and resources that coulda went towards making unique female Viera hair ... I find it acceptable, personally. Every race would want more unique new hair, ultimately, but quantity is more important and no one wants to be left out of new content rewards. No problem with people feeling the other way, but I do warn against pie-in-the-sky outlooks. "Would I be willing to wait an entire expac to get just ONE hairstyle?" is the way I think it should be addressed, seeing as they were willing to make Viera/ Hrothgar wait over an entire expac to get ANY new hair options.

As someone whose wanted to play female Hrothgar since the reveal of Hrothgar, and is 100% gonna play them provided SE gives them an appealing design, I'd 100% prefer shared hair and I can only hope that they were designed with shared hair in mind.

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Yeah I totally agree people asking for unique crap at the cost of ingame rewards everyone else can use is wildly stupid. I want the crap I earn in game, much less pay for on the shop, to work for my race. I do not want another whole expansion of seeing everyone get new stuff to enjoy and then they be like "Well for 7.0 hrothgar get 1 (UNO) new mane...with a braid on the LEFT this time" like no thats appalling. Also a constant complaint and part of the reason hrothgar and viera wanted hair updates is everyone looking the same and 1 hair per expansion is absolutely not combat that.

I want the 6.2(x) hair to work for hrothgar. I want every new hair hereon out to work for hrothgar. If it can be earned it should be usable by every race and "hrothgar hard unique headshape ubuuuu" is not an acceptable excuse. And I really wish people would stop asking for unique stuff they had ALL of shb to live up to "unique hairstyles" promised to viera and hrothgar and failed colossally just let me us my Modern Aesthetes like every other race.

"No expense spared" Boy I sure hope so Yoshi.