So you're telling me..

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Originally Posted by Rym

Hmm.

ohhhh but why are you linking max logs only are you cherrypicking for your argument you loser lmao

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I mean its literally the only setting for that graph where reaper drops from rank 1 to 2, and things like kill time/crit rng/party team comp all play a much greater effect when looking at only max rank, do you really think its a good idea to balance the game around that? I am not saying max rank doesnt mean anything, just that ranks from 95 - down are much more applicable to the average playerbase, and i think you already know what those graphs look like.

I am not 100% sure about monk, but from my understanding the rotation/opener its currently doing is something the developers did not think about and it makes it so they do way more damage than intended or something, not really gonna talk about it since i dont understand it.

Second of all, since you played wow i am pretty sure you realize how unfair it is for the best or in very limited scenarios probably not applicable during progression, second best damage dealer to also have the best utility skill except instant raise, while also being pretty easy to play.
In the end it just comes back to this, what is the point of playing something like dragoon or ninja, if they do less rdps, have no party utility, animation locks, and are also harder to play on top of that? Outside of the obvious "because you like it/have fun" which is true but also invalidates every balance issue ever.

I think for how streamlined the game is, no talents, no legendaries, stats have similar effects for all jobs, no trinket effects, the balancing could and should be better, i really dont see how you can argue for one job to be best at everything, there should be different upsides for different situations, as it is right now its not good.

And chill with the hyperbole, absolutely no one is asking for gigantic nerfs that make the class unplayable, i wanna play some reaper myself aswell, i'd just like to see the margins tighten, if ninja/dragoon/samurai/reaper were all within 1% damage wise reaper would still probably be the best option because of party healing, which is something the other melees just dont have access to, except monk's mantra which is also on a longer cooldown and weaker.

I also have an inkling you'd like square to not watch these forums until the job you like playing is the one on the undertuned side.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

No one is saying Reaper should do 2k less dps and just because people are talking about it doesn't mean that it's '' whining ''.
By that same logic you're whining about people whining.

Just because you disagree with what someone is saying doesn't mean that they're whining.

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A lot of people have been asking that RPR be the weakest dps. No joke, this thread has more than a handful of calls to nerf it into the ground, and to be on par if not lower than NIN.

It gets worse when you look at other threads and on reddit.

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Originally Posted by Maverick_Haas

A lot of people have been asking that RPR be the weakest dps. No joke, this thread has more than a handful of calls to nerf it into the ground, and to be on par if not lower than NIN.

It gets worse when you look at other threads and on reddit.

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No one is saying this please link me to where anyone has said that Reaper should be the weakest dps.
Including in this thread.
I haven't even seen anyone say it should be the lowest of melee dps.

This is like how clickbait media operates where they'll say '' people say '' and they'll link to a Tweet with zero followers and one like ( by themselves ).
Or they won't even do that they'll just say that but then not back it up and just act like it's true to make it seem like there's a controversy where there is none.

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Originally Posted by Maverick_Haas

A lot of people have been asking that RPR be the weakest dps. No joke, this thread has more than a handful of calls to nerf it into the ground, and to be on par if not lower than NIN.

It gets worse when you look at other threads and on reddit.

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Still nobody here asks for nerfs like "2000 DPS less".

RPR should have the lowest melee DPS in comparison. Having a gap from ~300/400 DPS (buffs already included) between the 1st and the 5th melee should be fine. I´ve posted a little list some pages ago.
Of course you don´t have to agree with it, but i highly doubt that anyone here is like "Nerf it into the ground!". It´s still about balance based on difficulty and utility. If e.g. a top DRG would´ve 400 DPS more than RPR, then the average is probably even since DRG has way more stuff to care about. (But if a top RPR has 400 more than a top DRG, than the average RPR has 800 more... a similar state we´ve already and which is not good...)

Stuff like AC is a different thing. It´s just to powerful as tank-healing is. SE needs to adjust all of that and should give healers their role back. Stuff which assist healer (Mantra, Nophica) is something different than having pure heal-utilities which are as strong as or even stronger than the most tools in healer kits.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I haven't even seen anyone say it should be the lowest of melee dps.

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I did... either the lowest melee or even with MNK on the 4th place. NIN, DRG and SAM should definately have a comfortzone since they need more input and have 0 utility.

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Originally Posted by Maverick_Haas

A lot of people have been asking that RPR be the weakest dps. No joke, this thread has more than a handful of calls to nerf it into the ground, and to be on par if not lower than NIN.

It gets worse when you look at other threads and on reddit.

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Those are just bad faith arguments, you can safely ignore them, but there are reasonable takes in this thread, i don't think it should be that controversial to say that different jobs should have different upsides and that comparing ninja or dragoon to reaper makes them look pretty weak as they contribute less rdps, utility and are at least a bit harder to play (least important thing of the 3 just feels bad to get more with less effort in my opinion).

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Originally Posted by Scuoll

I am not 100% sure about monk, but from my understanding the rotation/opener its currently doing is something the developers did not think about and it makes it so they do way more damage than intended or something, not really gonna talk about it since i dont understand it.

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It´s laughable at best.

Given to the graphs on balance, it´s a DPS gain from ~15 DPS in 2 out of 3 situations where you´ve a bunch of raid-wide buffs with you. Otherwise both rotations are even or the standard one is slightly better.
On top you´ve fights like the current EX, where the rotation goes from EF/RP -> PR to PR/RP -> EF automatically cause by transition-phases. So in the first phase you sit on the normal rotation, meanwhile you sit in the 2nd way longer phase on phantom rush within the burst-window.

It´s not that gamebreaker ppl might think. The biggest DPS numbers come with "adjust on the fly", a bunch of critluck and a sick raidparty anyway. (e.g. stuff like 3-8 DoTs in 2nd EX addphase and RDPS counted by brotherhood. )

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

Still nobody here asks for nerfs like "2000 DPS less".

RPR should have the lowest melee DPS in comparison. Having a gap from ~300/400 DPS (buffs already included) between the 1st and the 5th melee should be fine. I´ve posted a little list some pages ago.
Of course you don´t have to agree with it, but i highly doubt that anyone here is like "Nerf it into the ground!". It´s still about balance based on difficulty and utility. If e.g. a top DRG would´ve 400 DPS more than RPR, then the average is probably even since DRG has way more stuff to care about. (But if a top RPR has 400 more than a top DRG, than the average RPR has 800 more... a similar state we´ve already and which is not good...)

Stuff like AC is a different thing. It´s just to powerful as tank-healing is. SE needs to adjust all of that and should give healers their role back. Stuff which assist healer (Mantra, Nophica) is something different than having pure heal-utilities which are as strong as or even stronger than the most tools in healer kits.



I did... either the lowest melee or even with MNK on the 4th place. NIN, DRG and SAM should definately have a comfortzone since they need more input and have 0 utility.

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I dunno about bellow NIN, I think Reaper and MNK should be on par I do think that AC needs to get looked at tho it's too strong ( and there is quite frankly already too much and too easy healing going around, healers are already having a bad time with too little to do ).

Regardless this ain't directed at you but just in case of '' well acktjhually '' from others.
I am not saying that quite literally no person on the planet is saying Reaper shouldn't perhaps even be the lowest dps altogether.
But those people are not worth taking seriously and they also don't represent a sizeable enough portion of people that it's even worth entertaining.
You can find people who say quite literally anything, I am sure you could find people who unironically believe that Tanks should be out dps:ing DPS.

People just bring up these absurd examples like '' 2k dps nerf '' to basically try and shut down the conversation.

If they cut the heal of arcane crest by half so it's only a possible 250 pot (they can increase the personal shield if they want) then they can be around monks or dragoons level of DPS, but they really need to nerf arcane crest it's way too good right now.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

Still nobody here asks for nerfs like "2000 DPS less".

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I agree it's hyperbole, but effectively people are asking for it to be the worse dps because crest should be tuned? Instead of tuning down crest, they just want to completely kill the class identity.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

RPR should have the lowest melee DPS in comparison.

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RPR should not be the lowest melee DPS. Everything about this job screams DEAL DAMAGE. It's class identity, transforming into a void sent and dealing a ton of damage, would feel completely underwhelming if it hits like a wet noodle. If you're not a fan of class identity or want to be more realistic with your approach, then RPR's whole kit is designed around having a 40 - 60 second burst phase (double or triple enshroud). Circle gives a 3% damage buff, but most importantly it gives us the resource we need to use PF which enables us to do these long burst phases. I'll be honest and admit that I'm not sure if NIN and DRG has such a long burst phase and set up requirements (although lvl 80 DRG didn't seem have any issue with getting it's burst phase which was maybe a 15-20sec burst iirc). But I guarantee you RPR will become a laugh that it has to do a long burst phase in order to do more DPS than ranged variants.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

Stuff like AC is a different thing. It´s just to powerful as tank-healing is. ...which are as strong as or even stronger than the most tools in healer kits.

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What I don't understand is if you think crest is so strong, then why not advocate for nerfing it to be more on par with what MNK has, instead of wanting to nerf the whole job in itself. I'm not talking about not tuning at all, of course, but most people's reasoning for nerfing RPR to lowest "melee" dps is because of crest? Makes no sense to me and feels very overreaching. If crest was removed, would their DPS output be more acceptable?

Also, crest is one of the weakest regen abilities, only beating fairy whispering dawn, not to mention is very situational with a 30sec recast time, where as medica 2 can be recast immediately after the 15s duration. Not saying it shouldn't be tuned, but it's asinine to claim that it's putting healers out of a job.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

NIN, DRG and SAM should definately have a comfortzone since they need more input and have 0 utility.

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?? I don't think I understand what you are saying here, NIN and DRG have a ton of raid utility?

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

...Of course you don´t have to agree with it...

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I don't agree at all with your opinions, but I hope we can at the very least agree to disagree and let SE do what they feel is best.

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Originally Posted by Scuoll

Those are just bad faith arguments, you can safely ignore them

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I agree with you that they were bad faith arguments, but they also tend to be the "loudest" where ever I look.

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Originally Posted by Maverick_Haas

RPR should not be the lowest melee DPS. Everything about this job screams DEAL DAMAGE. It's class identity, transforming into a void sent and dealing a ton of damage, would feel completely underwhelming if it hits like a wet noodle. If you're not a fan of class identity or want to be more realistic with your approach, then RPR's whole kit is designed around having a 40 - 60 second burst phase (double or triple enshroud). Circle gives a 3% damage buff, but most importantly it gives us the resource we need to use PF which enables us to do these long burst phases. I'll be honest and admit that I'm not sure if NIN and DRG has such a long burst phase and set up requirements (although lvl 80 DRG didn't seem have any issue with getting it's burst phase which was maybe a 15-20sec burst iirc). But I guarantee you RPR will become a laugh that it has to do a long burst phase in order to do more DPS than ranged variants.



What I don't understand is if you think crest is so strong, then why not advocate for nerfing it to be more on par with what MNK has, instead of wanting to nerf the whole job in itself. I'm not talking about not tuning at all, of course, but most people's reasoning for nerfing RPR to lowest "melee" dps is because of crest? Makes no sense to me and feels very overreaching. If crest was removed, would their DPS output be more acceptable?

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I am a bit confused by this part, i am pretty sure the fantasy of every melee dps is doing damage, ninja stabs and casts magic, dragoon is shooting dragons and jumping all over the place, samurai does big sword slashes, am i missing something?
Is it alright for ninja fantasy if it hits like a wet noodle while stunlocking yourself with raiju dashes? Kinda weird argument

Also, i agree it makes more sense for reaper to be a damage dealer first and foremost than the melee with a really good healing skill for the whole party, but you cant ignore they currently are both.
If crest was just removed it would still be one of the best jobs in the game, thats the crazy part, i think you also need to tune damage of other melee jobs so their rdps is closer to each other. Maybe for reaper fantasy lower the rdps contribution of circle so its clearly more focused on personal dps, i dont know about the specific changes honestly, and i would personally prefer the highest rdps job to be one of the harder ones, which doesnt mean reaper useless and unplayable, just closer to the others.

I am aware that perfect balance is impossible unless complete homogenization happens, but right now it definitely has room for improvement/tightening the margins.