It's time to kill the argument that DPS abilities keep healers from healing.

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Originally Posted by inhaledcorn

Are....

Are you seriously suggesting in order to have more fun as a healer just... don't be good at the game? Do you even know what being a "good healer" even entails? Yes, the goal of a healer is to minimize the use of GCD heals to maximize use of GCD spells. There are various levels of people who can reach that ideal. I can get pretty close to that ideal. Sure, not many people can. Are you seriously saying it's fair that I have to suffer just because I wanted to be a better team player? I'm not saying I want a NIN or DRG level of rotation. I just want a second DoT to juggle. Spells or skills to use for Burst phases. If I keep getting oGCD healing tools to minimize my GCD healing to maximize my GCD damage, why can't I get more GCD damage? New players aren't a factor. They're not going to hit those buttons until they feel they're ready, and there are plenty of people who are never ready to hit those buttons. There are tons of people who believe that their ideal state is to just be a healing battery. We've already accommodated their play with Cure I spam. Why does someone like me have to suffer when playing healer? Don't say, "Play another role," I want to play and I like playing healer.

I like playing healer because it gives me the satisfaction of feeling smarter than the thing I'm fighting. DPS is for when I want to punch something's face in. Tank is for when I want to feel invincible. But, when I'm a healer, I'm thinking about how I'm going to use my multitude of tools to "optimize the fun out of a fight" as you put it. If you think that "optimization" is somehow inherently unfun, then maybe the problem is on you, not on us.

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Are...

Are you seriously suggesting that what you got from all that is that to have fun as a healer you should be bad at healing?

Did you really read the whole thing? Context matters...

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

To these points specifically, I raise you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry2a-1DZ-mE

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That moment when you realize it's all gone to sh!t and you might as well go out with a blaze of glory and give it your best shot.

A comment from the skill floor.

Dps complexity or simplicity does not impact the absolute skill floor. The required minumum healing skill is to be able to heal the first 10 perhaps 15 seconds of roulette trash megapulls, when dps has zero priority anyway. After that, it's stable, and healing the rest including bosses is cake in comparison. The challenge on bosses are mechanics, not healing. Even the mechanics required for the msq, makes a mockery of a claim that more than dps single button spam is too hard even for the higher tier players. Seriously.

I don't know the state of healing above the floor, but I would expect higher level difficulty content to require more job skill. Otherwise, why do it?

See, I'm of the opinion that to unlock the new jobs, you should have levelled one of their category to the starting rank and perform a basic solo duty to make sure you can do that role. So for gnb you needed to get a tank to 60 and fight as a drk, pld or war. Sage likewise should be to 70 and you got to do it as a whm, ast or sch.
Ensuring basic competence is not the same as gatekeeping

Back in the ARR and hw days, if you didn't know the basics of your job by the time you reached level 30, aiatar would give you a kicking over in brayflox's longstop. Likewise you had to do dps in order to stop madison from shooting everyone dead in sastacha hard or Titan from punting everybody back to the start.

You learned to do dps when healing regardless of stance dancing or not.
The msq too, forces you to dps while healing. You cant heal the trash to death when saving the beggar in uldah. You cant heal your way past raubahn in 3.2
The msq duties do not give you the echo healing as a healer. You got to heal yourself and do dps to beat the encounter.

Healing while dpsing is like pc requirents

The skill floor in duties is healing everyone enough to clear the content. That's the absolute minimum specs
But you want the reccommended specs which is always be casting- healing everyone enough to clear the content and do something productive with your gcd. This means damage.

You should be past the skill floor once you reach the end of ARR's story.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

This is an incredibly disingenuous argument, and completely disregards any context as to why people dislike older ARR dungeons nowadays. Being synced down to lower level content removes a good portion of most jobs toolkis, leaving several complete shells of themselves. Bard, Dancer, Black Mage and pretty much every tank all are extremely below at or below 60 simply because they're missing far too many of their core skills. Take Gunbreaker, for example. What makes the job fun is Continuation. Below 70, you're essentially doing 123 Burst Strike and nothing else. Bard and Dancer have laughably low proc rates (I believe 20%) at these level ranges. Granted, Standard Step isn't remotely balanced for low level content. So that gives Dancer something. Bard is little more than a Heavy Shot simulator.

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Yeah, this is huge. Levelling is straight up scuffed for a lot of Jobs. Every time the devs think "we need to remove skills to keep the Job from getting bloated" they end up removing skills from early levels. After all, the later levels need to be exciting, so people are sitting there going "I just hit Stormblood and got a bunch of new tools!" or whatever. Except now the ARR portion is largely garbage barring the few Jobs that have sane levelling kits. RDM is fine, SAM is pretty decent, but then there's BRD as you mentioned, DRK which is the poster boy for a completely jacked levelling experience, multiple Melee DPS that don't get AoEs until horribly late because obviously DRG loves getting Doom Spike at level 40. SE needs to actually sit down and do a full revamp of the 1 to 90 experience, but that would probably require so much damn work to make sure content doesn't snap in half that they'd probably run out of time to design Jobs for the next expac.

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Originally Posted by Beddict

Yeah, this is huge. Levelling is straight up scuffed for a lot of Jobs. Every time the devs think "we need to remove skills to keep the Job from getting bloated" they end up removing skills from early levels. After all, the later levels need to be exciting, so people are sitting there going "I just hit Stormblood and got a bunch of new tools!" or whatever. Except now the ARR portion is largely garbage barring the few Jobs that have sane levelling kits. RDM is fine, SAM is pretty decent, but then there's BRD as you mentioned, DRK which is the poster boy for a completely jacked levelling experience, multiple Melee DPS that don't get AoEs until horribly late because obviously DRG loves getting Doom Spike at level 40. SE needs to actually sit down and do a full revamp of the 1 to 90 experience, but that would probably require so much damn work to make sure content doesn't snap in half that they'd probably run out of time to design Jobs for the next expac.

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Do we really need new jobs for the next expansion? I'd say we've hit a pretty solid amount of Jobs at the moment.

We got the healer and the heavy armor DPS we needed to make things more or less rounded. (Though I guess we'd still need another ranged and a second Dexterity melee job, that is if you consider Blue Mage the 4th caster.)

Given how many of the supposed new buttons are actually old ones under a different name, there's really no reason why a lot of them can't be restored to lower levels since SE already admitted they don't do much balancing for them (look at the ED nerf) just like how healer dps actions being restored would be beneficial to the levelling process by giving new healers options to do in combat during the long levelling process instead of yet another heal they won't press.

Plus, judging from the preview, monk is getting howling fist and steel peak being returned at lower levels. Why not other jobs? Energy drain should be back at the level it was taught to be used in the acn quest for example. Get the core mechanics taught early.

And tbh, if all the flashy new holy, aow and gravity is just a 10 potency increase, just scrap the current form and make that a trait and make the holy/gravity/aow 2 do something NEW

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

Do we really need new jobs for the next expansion? I'd say we've hit a pretty solid amount of Jobs at the moment.

We got the healer and the heavy armor DPS we needed to make things more or less rounded. (Though I guess we'd still need another ranged and a second Dexterity melee job, that is if you consider Blue Mage the 4th caster.)

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I'd be perfectly fine with SE skipping out on new Jobs to re-do the levelling kit for the Jobs we have, but I bet SE heavily banks on showing off new Jobs to generate hype. "We fixed the trash levelling system and made ARR combat less boring!" doesn't have the same appeal as "SUMMON A DEMON FROM THE VOID TO BECOME THE ULTIMATE EDGELORD". Plus there are still some fan favourite Jobs that people are asking for, such as Beastmaster, Time Mage, and Chemist, and going an expac with zero Jobs would just being "delaying" those Jobs (even if SE has zero intention of ever making them).

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Originally Posted by Beddict

I'd be perfectly fine with SE skipping out on new Jobs to re-do the levelling kit for the Jobs we have, but I bet SE heavily banks on showing off new Jobs to generate hype. "We fixed the trash levelling system and made ARR combat less boring!" doesn't have the same appeal as "SUMMON A DEMON FROM THE VOID TO BECOME THE ULTIMATE EDGELORD".

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This is the issue in a nutshell.

The changes that'd seem common-sense to those already invested in the game aren't sufficiently juicy to hook those who aren't yet customers, so when push comes to shove...

As a WHM player who levelled the Job to max level back in Stormblood (also first Job I levelled to max) and will be dropping it in favor of AST, the Job needs something to make it a more enjoyable Job to play. The Job is simply too boring for me now, and after seeing the media tour for the Job, I believe it's time to hang my cane up.

However, I still want the Job to succeed. Believe it or not, WHM doesn't need a lot to make it fun. Aside from a few nitpicks, the WHM healing toolkit is fine in my eyes. Really good even. And I do agree with the nerfs to Thin Air. I believe that in order to fix WHM, the devs can add one or two DPS skills and that's it (maybe three but that's pushing it). Healing isn't hard. It's not. And adding one or two DPS skills won't raise the skill ceiling all that much. Maybe I'll make a new thread about WHM in the future. It's just sad to see the Job that I loved and levelled to max level first isn't being shown any love at all.