SE needs to do more to help bad players

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

Is it though?

The game has specific rotations and actions every role takes to do what they do. So long as they are doing their rotation and using their kit this would be considered playing "decently". Why? Because they are using what the game gives them instead of spamming the same spell over and over or spamming something like Piercing Talon on DRG.

People would not play better if the game told them they play bad because it already does by them failing content and then they run to the forums/reddit/twitter and complain and beg for content nerfs and Job buffs.

If you want to play poorly, then fine, but don't get upset when people don't want to carry you through content that you are not contributing to at all and are actually making more difficult..

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It is.
Just because the game highlights the next ability you're supposed to be pressing for the chain, doesn't mean you're performing well.
Me personally am new to summoner. And while I have gotten way better at the rotation and can actually produce steady DPS, there have been moments in the main story duties where I struggled to actually get past the encounter.
And that's with pressing the nicely highlighted abilities as they popped up.


[SPOILER]It was all the Ran'jit encounters[/SPOILER]


So no, the game doesn't help you at all to actually get better at the class you're playing.
You get the absolute bare minimum, and that's what you see from people and what everyone is complaining about : the bare minimum.


As for summoner, yeah you need to read the tooltips:

• Know to keep your dots up
• Know what resets tri-disaster
• Know the requirements to summon demi-bahamut
• Know that Ruin IV needs to be proc'd and can't be assigned to the toolbar
• Same or the Bahamut/Phoenix abilities

Like above, reading the tooltip is the bare minimum, and not every skill even tells what it's replacing on your toolbar, so people might not even bother with it in the first place cause it's not obvious to figure out.

k so what i get from those bad people, we have to please them because they dont bother to play at basic level?
i dont give a shit at low level contents, but from 60 to 80 you should be able to do basic things, i dont queue to do speed run because its stupid in the first place, but I dont queue to be in a group with people cant even do the basic shits of their classes either

this isnt about doing what people want, its about respecting people in your group and pulling your weight. Imagine I go to a dungeon and just spam 1 skill because that's how I want to play.

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Originally Posted by TalithaSolarien

That is a huge fallacy. There are about 30-40 skill per class that play together in an intricate web to enable you to do optimal dps (just talking dps here). Figuring that out alone from the tooltips is hard, esp. as they are not as complete as one would wish. Figuring that out for yourself is what a lot of players do and this leads to a lot of bad rotations. Add in the fact that most dps jobs play differently.

So no, it's not as easy like saying "just read the tooltips".

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playing optimally is hard, but playing decently isnt, even a monkey can do it.

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Originally Posted by DavidIven

k so what i get from those bad people, we have to please them because they dont bother to play at basic level?
i dont give a shit at low level contents, but from 60 to 80 you should be able to do basic things, i dont queue to do speed run because its stupid in the first place, but I dont queue to be in a group with people cant even do the basic shits of their classes either

this isnt about doing what people want, its about respecting people in your group and pulling your weight. Imagine I go to a dungeon and just spam 1 skill because that's how I want to play.



playing optimally is hard, but playing decently isnt, even a monkey can do it.

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and that is the problem. People don't want to do it. The game can't force them to do it. As long as force grouping happens for story elements. You just got to put up with people. Or, give up your convenience and start doing premades.


Because even if you made content harder. It won't change a thing. It will just make it more tedious for you.

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

Personally I think they’ve done quite enough to help casual or bad players, lol

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This. I feel like job duties, while on level with gear one would reasonably have, are good enough hand holding. As well as solo duties. When people jump potion, they skip them. There's still, currently, the role quests that you cannot complete the MSQ without doing- and I found the tank one to be a pain. But people still manage to not stack or stand in stupid.

I think it'd be great to really make these duties a bit less lenient.

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Originally Posted by Nyvara

This^

We are talking about MSQ dungeons acquired in the duty finder and folks are getting crazy about Kicking the bads and bad this or bad that. Save all that crazy for the high end things. As I have said in a thread like this more than once. I can expect people to have high standards in expert/savage content. But for normal? you need to lower your standards.

For pete's sake don't go kicking folks in quest dungeons because they are not performing to your standards. That's a real crappy thing to do.

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No. I am tired of this crud, MAYBE low level with sprouts I can have some patience, but when we are at SHB and dps still outright refuse to use any kind of aoe, or have ANY situational awareness, and end up being a complete and utter detriment to their team is when they need to be kicked.

Things like this in my own personal experience is completely unacceptable:

https://i.imgur.com/fqg2PBn.png

https://i.imgur.com/VvwnkBc.png

This shouldn't be tolerated, we are people "behind the screen" too.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

No. I am tired of this crud, MAYBE low level with sprouts I can have some patience, but when we are at SHB and dps still outright refuse to use any kind of aoe, or have ANY situational awareness, and end up being a complete and utter detriment to their team is when they need to be kicked.

Things like this in my own personal experience is completely unacceptable:

https://i.imgur.com/fqg2PBn.png

https://i.imgur.com/VvwnkBc.png

This shouldn't be tolerated, we are people "behind the screen" too.

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I feel your frustration, was leveling a tank with a friend. The RDM in our group was doing incredibly low dps, like incredibly low. While also dying to almost every mechanic.
This was the level 71 dungeon (Hemlich switch ?sp) A dungeon that should take around 20 minutes ended up talking almost an hour. It was so frustrating. They weren't doing AOEs, or even a proper rotation. If a AOE was placed on them, they would stop casting, do the slow turn around, and walk out of the aoe. When i mean walk out, i mean get hit and die.

I'm also feeling this frustration in Eden normal, these are the same group of people excited for savage but don't understand countdowns/stack mechanics. It's going to be frustrating trying to clear savage with a PUG group (Since i do not have time to commit to a static) when they have fun dying from the same thing over and over again and saying "relax it's just a game" , i agree its just a game, but they are wasting other peoples time.

I'm not sure exactly what the problem is, maybe they get tunnel vision and just stare at their hotbar? And theres no guiding them during the raid/dungeon because they don't pay attention to chat when they are alive.
Could they introduce more mandatory Guildhests at higher levels? Maybe solo guildhests with the more "difficult" mechanics that they can't enter content without clearing that first?

I haven't read through the whole post and all it's replys yet, so sorry if repeat stuff others have mentioned.

The first thing you have to realize is there is next to nothing SE can do to get bad players that can't realize or are unwilling to admit that they are bad players to improve. It is possible to be so bad that you think you are good, look up the Dunning-Kruger effect if don't believe me.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

I, like many of you, often find myself internally raging as I watch players commit any number of major offenses:

* Not using AoE on 3+ enemies (2 depending on class)
* Never ever ever doing damage (Healers...)
* Mindlessly failing the same mechanic

I suggest a special "Mechanic Test Zone" that players can use to bridge the gap between the lowest content and mid-core content. It would handle things like:

* Mechanics list

Simple things like these would go a LONG way to improving the general skill of this community.

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On the first point about AoE, thats probably just bad awareness on their part, and likely never doing the potency math. Its very easy to just default to the highest base potency chain of skills instead of doing the math to see when the lower aoe potency passes the single target.

On point 2, yes healers can and should be doing damage during downtime, but pretty sure outside of ultimates and damageless dps race phases (like dohn meg lyre phase) healer dps is not part of the encounter balance.

For 3. There definitely needs to be some ways to practice a few more mechanics outside of dungeons. There are getting to be a lot of them. Maybe we just need a few more bosses like the mechanics one in Bardams Mettle or an arena like that to practice them.

I definitely think it might be worth adding a tutorial mode on all the mechanic icons in the game. Not all of them are immediately intuitive, and there are some mechanics that only show up in a handful of fights, making it not immediately obvious what you're meant to do during them.

Sure most people might ignore this mode, but I'd be thankful for it. Being told 'oh this is just [insert ex trial's mechanic here] thing' isn't really enough to help me learn what it does.

I'd really like to have a post-dungeon tally screen. For a Level 70 Scholar for example, dealing damage is so underwhelming and stupid - both audiovisually and number-wise - that I often really can't be bothered (I do not care about your hate in that matter :) Also, no kicks yet for that, so apparently not everyone is getting "salty" about that as the kids say nowadays). Some guy here said it takes "EXTREMELY" long if the healer does not do DPS, I mean, get real.

I am an absolute statistics freak - but right now, I can't even see my own damage numbers properly in all the visual clutter when Biora has another tick of "extreme" [sic] damage going on. So my incentive for being very efficient is equally low. If I have a good day then it happens by itself, but else all my efforts simply vanish. No recording, no tally, no summary. It's either "YAY, YOU DID IT" or "OOPS! YOU FAILED".

A statistic screen after the dungeon would literally nullify harrasment. In LoL for example, I place much, much more wards since I know visual score is a thing that again leads me not only to a better statistic - but also a better score for my "champion mastery".

I mean, I had do a government test for selling non-prescription medications. Took me 3 days, and I had a score to reach. Nobody gives a damn abou the score, they took the slip saying "PASSED" and that's it. Maybe many people tackle dungeons in the same manner due to the lack of actual numbers. If I get a "B-" on DPS as Scholar, and other people see that, heck you will see me DPSing next time! Or if my "physical damage" is only "B" while the other Red Mage has "A-", then I need to get my melee phases better!

Sincerely,

https://i.imgur.com/kXOfaq9.png

ok... so, for these dungeons, what if we cut down the duty time allowed from 90m to 30m? That would give less room for error before all being booted out.

Also, I think a case could be made for if you fail enough mechanics, you get auto-kicked from the duty. Not pulling enough DPS compared to the average? Autoboot. It sounds harsh, but I think we're going to need to start implementing an autoboot system by SE. Starting from the level 10 Guildhest. Throw in a 6 hour "Duty Locked" timer too.

I'm serious too, it's brutal but it would fix this mess. Exception would be if you're queuing fully premade (possibly the "Practice" part of Raid Finder too). If it's the standard, then people will work to improve. Also, can we start adding in gear checks for all dungeons and guildhests? A level 10 in racial gear for the guildhest, needs to be made sure to be geared in level 10 gear for the guildhest.