http://kanican.livejournal.com/55915.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Zangetsu
according to this you should have seen an decrease in damage from an increase in either VIT or DEF until you hit the damage floor
Are the numbers too high?
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02-23-2012, 05:06 AMRydin
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02-23-2012, 05:09 AMAllistarIMO the numbers are definitely too big/exaggerated...in every aspectQuote:
Originally Posted by Rydin
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02-23-2012, 05:29 AMZangetsuPeople are testing things at such low stats. 269 is very low VIT. The higher you go past a larger number it starts to change. Well not change but what I think we are doing is capping ourselves. What if it was something like:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rydin
2def+1 VIT = 1 damage
At a certain point your going to hit a "cap" because it will be very difficult to meld the stats needed to continue the damage reduction. Has anyone tested something like this? I don't think we're seeing how stats really work yet. -
02-23-2012, 05:43 AMBruceyBruceyBangBangQuote:
Originally Posted by Rydin
That's all well and good, but you are describing it as if there are several different directions the increase can go in and that there are other viable alternatives. If a little is all you have than the little of what is most potent goes a long way. Instead of attempting to figure me out and label what outside interests I have --which are perfectly fine interests-- you steer away from what is important.
If you want to keep up in a discussion you should know what you're saying first. If what you have said doesn't make sense, which it doesn't, how about you just say that you never thought about it that way. That's what I would do if I were not making sense. -
02-23-2012, 05:47 AMZangetsuThanks for the link. I was looking it over more carefully and I realized it proved exactly what I'm trying to say. You should do more tests with higher VIT because I don't think there is a cap. I think your capping yourself. More def Started to to have no effect after a point but when I do it with more VIT I get damage cuts all the way to 900 def. There may be a ratio that needs to be kept to keep seeing damage cuts. All that def is useless without more VIT is what I think it may be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rydin
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02-23-2012, 06:04 AMRydin
on MOBs +/-10 levels he was able to control one stat while increasing another and see change the entire time up to 345 VIT
It would take the highest VIT gear and double melds on every applicable piece to hit 400 VIT... It is possible though
maybe we should....
What was your VIT and DEF, what MOB were you fighting and how much damage were you taking when you capped the VIT increase?
If you're really lucky and you could get 5 melds on each applicable piece... plus the right gear... you could get +300 Vitality... for like 560 Vitality on a Glad... I definitely don't see that happening though -
02-23-2012, 06:07 AMKaeko
Ok going to actually respond to Zangetsu's attempt to debunk the testing, specifically on VIT.
In the "initial testing on R52 Mongrels", it shows that for VIT of 178 all the way up to R269, the damage floor or "cap" as you refer to, is the SAME. So going from 178 VIT to 269 VIT did NOT change the cap.
Regarding your belief that we did not test VIT high enough, you are mistaken. You believed that we only tested to 269, but if you look at the post, it CLEARLY states in the actual body of the post AND the conclusions that the tested VIT range was 252 to 345. If you want to make the argument that a tier exists beyond 345 go for it, but going beyond 345 starts to border on the realm of impracticality in game.
Regarding the argument that DEF is somehow tiered (your example of going from 599 to 600 produces a 30 damage decrease)... First of all, we have offered an extremely large data set that would practically flood this thread if we were to post the raw data here. It clearly showed for at least 40 cases that there was a steady linear decline, not some sort of tier function. Not to be snarky or anything but I have never seen you offer any data in any of your posts suggesting anything regarding any stat at any time. Even a basic methodology like what mob, what level, etc. is not present.
We have the same goal in that we want to know how stats work. We offer our methodology in detail so that players like yourself may attempt to debunk it. That is what you are trying to do and we appreciate this. However, in your attempts to debunk it, you offer no alternative that has any test, data, or logical observational conclusion to support your counter-argument. As such, I (with all due respect), personally cannot take your theory(ies) all that seriously. This is not some personal attack on you. I only mean that if you expect us to defend our findings and detail our methods to be picked at, we only ask you produce the same.
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Regarding the actual topic, I'm happy everyone has differing opinions. I just find it frustrating when they base their opinions of false or generally unproven ideas. If you're going to argue 1 way or the other, at least try to have the most accurate depiction of how things really work before you go at it. I stated this on like the 3rd page of this thread (buried somewhere in there), but
CheersQuote:
It's like we have to stand up before we can learn to walk - we have to know and AGREE on how stats work before we can complain about how they are broken.
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02-23-2012, 06:08 AMRydinI'm not arguing with you... my point is facts are facts.... interpretation and commentary is not...Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang
Example:
"I ate an entire 10oz. steak today... It was frikkin huge"
or
"I ate this little wimpy 10oz steak today"
neither is wrong...
FACT: You ate a 10oz steak
OPINION: it was either huge or wimpy
thats all I'm saying... Im not saying Eldaena was right or wrong... I'm just pointing out that saying "A little goes a long way" is an opinion
If you're saying that is not an opinion then there is no need to discuss it further because we obviously disagree on what is opinion -
02-23-2012, 06:19 AMMychaelWhat's "subjective" in my opinion (though I can only speak for myself) is that 50 HP to a cura is "a long way." This isn't XI, the HP:MP ratio of my cures is hardly a concern--unless we're talking a big difference (more than a the difference that 50hp/280mp could make). Then, 50 HP is barely anything in this game. When someone's taking damage fast enough--with no downtime to regen your MP--that you're casting so much to worry about the 1 extra cura you could get in after casting 20+ curas, there's probably another healer involved. ^^; Which probably means that the +50HP on your cura went into an overcure, which only served to pull more emnity toward yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang
In fact, let's say your CNJ has 3000 MP total, and make it 4000 with Blissful Mind/Shroud of Saints. You could fit in 14 curas. Over the course of your full MP pool plus abilities, you have produced 700 more HP with that +50 HP. Admittedly, that doesn't seem like "a long way" to me.
And then, consider that you're paying 1m for those two Healing Hands III materia, or 700k+ for a single Healing Hands IV. (I haven't checked prices in a long time, hopefully they've gone down...) Is that really worth it? -
02-23-2012, 06:20 AMEldaenaIt is my opinion on significance of the data, not the data itself. Not everyone finds things as important as me. Rydin was correct that my opinion is subjective, but there really was not any reason to say so, since it should be common knowledge that opinions are such. That being the case, however, there is definitely an effect from stats. That is not subjective. I knew what Rydin was saying, and he was correct that my opinion was an opinion. That doesn't change that I still think that stats have a bigger impact than one may think based on the numbers shown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rydin