Forcing NA Duty Finder to be better, we need a grading system.

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Originally Posted by Klamor

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You also have to consider the bad that would go with this system as well and can it prevent that bad behavior from repeating itself.

I am not talking about bad gameplay skills but also mentality of a player for being S, A, B, and etc.

Never forget that back in early 2.X era that people did use PF to create learning parties but the issue of people with "better" skills ignoring players new to the old contents grew out of control because they felt their time was only worth using with other players who cleared the content and are skilled enough to burn through the content fast. It was not until the Punishment for quiting a DF run early and Bonus for helping new players were introduced that it died down a bit but that did not elimiate the issue completely as people found ways to get around the punishment through requesting being Vote Kicked or just holding the entire group hostage in the dungeon with them until they are Vote kicked or someone Leaved themselves so they don't have to face the Punishment.

A middle ground will be required to prevent such mentality from taking over S and A rank player base or else we faced with this issue once more where people are left behind because they could not meet "expectations" nor perform task the way a certain player within S and/or A rank would have done things just because they're new to the content even though their skills are atleast at A rank, B rank, or C rank.

A worse case scenario this system may promote groups of S/A rank players to look down on B Rank or C rank players and have these B Rank or lower players "Kicked" from the group in hopes of getting another "S/A" Rank Player or the entire group or one of the S/A Rank player quits the Dungeon because they did not get a full group of S/A Rank players.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

(stuff).

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Just this, seriously.

Just a simple rating system like you see at the end of stages in a lot of games that tells you how well you did (as long as it can be calculated well, that is.) so that people will definitely be aware if they could use improvement, and it could be motivation for some, wanting to move up to A or S rank from where they generally get at dungeons and such.

But none of the exclusionary "people are only matched with those of their rank" crap, because that hurts what DF is as a whole and can cause more splits in community. It is not something like competitive PVP. MAYBE the system could prefer to match people of close rank but it is not guaranteed (like how it apparently prefers to try matching a more balanced group of dps if possible before just going with both dps being melee, or both being BRD/MCH, etc. Dont take my word on that as I dont know how true that is, but you should get the idea regardless) if you are so inclined to force the bads away from you completely (even though that can never happen)

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

The design of the content goes in hand with the system (or lack of). If the content allows below-minimal play to be passable, it falls onto the system and community to address it.

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No, it doesn't. What you look for in content is something that looks nice, plays well, and is polished.

Just look at any RTS game. The content is the actual RTS aspect of it. If you just released a game like SC2 with nothing more than the basic game-modes, it'd be a fine game. It's a pretty game, the combat system functions well (aside from complaints stemming from complicated issues like MBS, unit collision and pathing, etc.), and it's pretty bug free. But, it's systems like ladder that utilize the content and changes our approach to it. Suddenly, because winning or losing has a real impact on our ranking, some people will start to care a lot more.

FFXIV's content is fine. It's a sufficient sand-box. We're just not given much of a directive. Take the DF system for example. 90 minutes to clear some crappy dungeon for some loot and monetary rewards (gil, tomestones). That system is incredibly bland when it could be so much more. You say the content is hand-holding and allows for bad play. No, the content doesn't do that. Take that same content, and change the DF system to only give you 10 minutes to complete Sohr Khai. The content didn't change. But, using the system, you've changed our experience with said content completely.

You could easily put in more dungeon objectives. And, best of all, you can release more of them over time to keep people interested in old content. Of course, the content itself needs to leave room for those objectives but like I said earlier, the content is generally a sufficient sand-box. You can have basic objectives like "clear with no deaths," "clear in under 15-minutes," "kill all enemies." Then you could have content specific objectives like "defeat Moglin without allowing any moogles to be revived," "defeat the horse boss with all borders broken," "defeat Hraesvelgr with 7 platforms remaining." The system can easily dictate how we interact with the content.

But, as with what you constantly do, this is getting caught up in the unimportant. The important thing is actually making people care about and want those objectives to begin with. You could lock the rare minion drop, the TT card drop, and the orchestrion roll behind the completion of a certain number of objectives. You could give scaling monetary rewards based on objective completion (more objectives more gil and tomestones). You could give achievements and titles. But, I think there will still be people who just don't care.

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Originally Posted by MihaelB

Facing the main point first, yes majority are casuals. Yes most won't ever reach the standard of the top raid. Yes there's a unification necessary for the player database but currently there is no unification, there is nothing but continual daily repetition of the negative space you see in this thread. 416 pages don't lie about the type of people you will face in duty finder.

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Why are you trying to use that thread as evidence to back up your disdain against less skilled players when a large portion of that thread is about elitists and self proclaimed skilled players ruining runs too. A lot of the posts in that thread are about people who think they are skilled being just as much responsible for creating what you call 'the negative space'. Outside of trolls, botters and RMT the next most negative element of this community is the elitists who look down their noses are casuals and the less skilled players.

They are less patient, less forgiving, less likely to go out of their way to help others unless they have something to personally gain from it (mounts, tombstones, achievements, gil or minions etc), more prone to rage quitting when things do not go the way they wanted or if was a wipe or two. Trying to punish others because they are not as good as them and trying to segregate/split the community between themselves and the people they hate so much because those less skilled are a slight inconvenience to them once in a while.

Your original idea is a prime example where you want to actually punish others by extending their queue times if they are not a high enough grade plus segregate them so you won't have them infecting your zone of self proclaimed skill/awesomeness. Maybe you would like it if SE added a new emoticon/animation which mimics spitting on the casuals who cant click a mouse/button as fast as you while your at it...or maybe you would prefer an auto kick from groups towards anyone who has a disability and because of it struggles more than you do in memorizing rotations or due to their disability they lack the same level of motion control/responsiveness.

I've seen this grading system before and it's horrible, if anyone ever played any fighter online this is basically the same system they use to determine ranking. I've seen this heavily influenced in DoA 4+5 as well as SF 4 to name a few fighters, and it created toxic lobbies, lopsided fights and lead to increased boosting. These are issues we already have presently and something we need less of, adding a superficial ranking system doesn't do anything. If you don't believe play those fighters I mentioned, or even any shooter with a ranking ladder. Simply because Person A is a "top rank" doesn't mean they're going to preform at that level 100% of the time. Do you know how many games of Halo 5 I've logged since I got it roughly a month ago where I seen players at level 100+ go negative? Where I a much lower level (28 I believe) out preform them.

You're fighting a battle that you'll never win, that is spread across multiple genre of games. The moment you stop and realize this you'll be in a better place, players are going to play how they want irregardless of what you or I want.

The age old solution to this issue is play with people you know play well, if you don't have those people find them. It'll make your experience all the more better.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Why are you trying to use that thread as evidence to back up your disdain against less skilled players when a large portion of that thread is about elitists and self proclaimed skilled players ruining runs too. A lot of the posts in that thread are about people who think they are skilled being just as much responsible for creating what you call 'the negative space'. Outside of trolls, botters and RMT the next most negative element of this community is the elitists who look down their noses are casuals and the less skilled players. They are less patient, less forgiving, less likely to go out of their way to help others unless they have something to personally gain from it (mounts, tombstones, achievements, gil or minions etc), more prone to rage quitting when things do not go the way they wanted or if was a wipe or two. Trying to punish others because they are not as good as them and trying to segregate/split the community between themselves and the people they hate so much because those less skilled are a slight inconvenience to them once in a while.

Your original idea is a prime example where you want to actually punish others by extending their queue times if they are not a high enough grade plus segregate them so you won't have them infecting your zone of self proclaimed skill/awesomeness. Maybe you would like it if SE added a new emoticon/animation which mimics spitting on the casuals who cant click a mouse/button as fast as you while your at it...or maybe you would prefer an auto kick from groups towards anyone who has a disability and because of it struggles more than you do in memorizing rotations or due to their disability they lack the same level of motion control/responsiveness.

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Have I ever mentioned I possess disdain towards less skilled players or whether I'm an elitist player? No, don't put labels on me. I'm a non-raider and if this system was to be integrated, I'd be a E-C player due to my latency which I'm well aware of is a problem.

I'm well aware of my limitations as a player and I put in the time to do the research to improve which I am in dire need of. Anyone can look up my stats on parsing websites and see it's below average.

Do I want to play with players who are equal skill to me? Yes.
Do I want someone to be punished for being drunk and high on drugs while playing? Yes.
Do I want someone to be punished for being intentionally idiotic all the time in Duty Finder? Yes.
Do I want to play with people who have so much disabilities and struggles that they can't even push out basic rotations? No.

I'm not a bleeding heart activist with my time I spend in my leisure, I waste it playing a game to have fun. I do not find carrying people who have 0 incentive to improve fun. At least with a grading system, I'll be able to carry myself out if I desire to put in the time to learn something and I'll fall down below if I don't.

If I want to get drunk and high whilst playing this, I would go make a party finder. 'DRUNK BISMARK, COME DRINK WITH US' and if you have an extreme known disability that detriments your game play, maybe you should reach out to people who are willing to help you instead of the assumption of being carried by strangers.

Some people are gifted and will be good without trying and the same goes for the people with disabilities. If you don't possess the natural skill to do something, you need to put in the extra effort to reach those who do.

Clearly OP you have too much time on your table . It's not the first time it was suggested and if somehow it does, it will divide the community even more.
Yes, we play for fun and treasure our time doing so.
I don't see a clear purpose to this as long as you have ls available and you can clear, play however you want with that group .
There is 0 point in adding that system in any game as it would stir up more than you can take.
But then again, you can write nonsense on forum, as it just an opinion and it will remain only that.

If you're not able to make some connections in a game , might better find a solo and not a mmorpg instead of bashing and always complaining how the community should be graded by performance. If you know a little history, you would know that is not a good thing to request or enforce. Then again, it is a democracy and everyone is entitled to suggestions, but only that : Don't force your ideas on a whole group, it might backfire .

You're leaving out the cause of bad players.

I honestly do not think that people are bad at this game because they are incompetent.The problem with this game seems to be more that the game is easy all the time.You get into the game, do some dungeons but never really have to use your brain or try your best.You can get through this game simply by being brain afk.There is no skill level required to reach level 60.N-O-N-E. If anybody is trying to tell me sub lvl 60 dungeons are anywhere near hard then you must be kidding me.

People act as if challenge is a bad thing."Oh no this content is forcing me out of my comfort zone because it makes me try, nerf please!" and boom things get nerfed.If anybody wants to somehow get rid or around the flood of bad players then the only way to do so is to make the game more challenging, more unforgiving.

And please don't pull the "But we're just playing this for fun, not to be good at the game" thing on me because if you do you are an egoist.I see so many people leaving when they get nidhogg on the roulette because they know it's probably be a wipefest.One bad player can ruin the fun for others.

I don't see this game having a bright future if things continue this way.


Oh btw: I'm stuck at nidhogg because of people who can't even follow simple instructions like killing the enemy marked with a 1 first.
We're even wiping at the DPS check.
BAD PLAYERS ARE RUINING MY EXPERIENCE

@Exidrial
Again, you don't have to clear something using df, that's not the purpose of the df.There are linkshells for hunts, for raiding, for clearing content. I really don't see how you people still disregard this option and only cry wolf at the df. Yes, you will find new players in the df and some which come across a challenge will leave the party.
And still I don't quite understand how you can generalize to include most of the player base because of your experience with df groups.Most of us don't even use the df or use it only when we don't have enough people on. But instead of providing actual help and tips before the pull it's made, better to cry wolf on forums , cause why not?
This is why we don't have nice things in rl and ig , cause there is a bunch of people which refuse the social aspect of a Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game and use the time in actual clearing , finding or making a bond with people in a game to rather bark at a tree.
Wake up and smell the roses, the world doesn't revolve only on a few select and bare in mind that it's a privilege to play and nothing more.
And on a more friendly note : if you really are not able to find parties in pf or ls or even muster the courage to speak with people which might struggle with the same step, speak up ig and not on forum . The ideas might be good and nice to have, but to have them implemented it will take plenty of time , in which the energy you waste to type and be angry can be used to actually play the game.

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Originally Posted by Exidrial

You're leaving out the cause of bad players.

I honestly do not think that people are bad at this game because they are incompetent.The problem with this game seems to be more that the game is easy all the time.You get into the game, do some dungeons but never really have to use your brain or try your best.You can get through this game simply by being brain afk.There is no skill level required to reach level 60.N-O-N-E. If anybody is trying to tell me sub lvl 60 dungeons are anywhere near hard then you must be kidding me.

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To be fair, they are easy now that everyone overgears the content by so much it's not even funny. Forcing veterens into lower dungeons by rewarding them tomes is a blessing and a curse. Now we ignore mechanics and younger players learn nothing. We speed run dungeons that these players would have previously had to work hard at. SE is definitely to blame, but it's not because they didn't design content with challenge in mind, it's because the content is now so overgeared (and level sync is kind of broken) that we blatantly ignore everything the dungeons were trying to teach us.

So what's the answer at this point?