What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

If you want to tell a story about the end, about despair and about hope in spite of it all, what you need to do is you need to make these concepts resonate at every level. You can have big universal concepts like the fate of the other stars and dynamis and all that crap. But you need to make it resonate at a personal, character level as well.

The question the Endwalker story should have tried to induce in the players is: With everything that happened, why should we go on? And not on a meta level (why should we go on if the story is so shit?).

There is in my opinion no substitute for character death when it comes to finality, for left regrets, things unsaid, for fate inescapable, death is the ultimate end and thus should have been a major part of Endwalker. Imagine if Alphy had died and his dad had just MISSED the chance to tell him what his son really meant to him? THAT is despair. Imagine Alisaie giving Zenos her bit of advice as a consequence of her having grown BEYOND revenge and seeing him for the pitiable bum he really is? That is someone who is able to move on in spite of it all. Isn't this what Endwalker was going for thematically? They could have gone in a fantastic direction with all this.

Also, imagine a main character dying in future expansions. Endwalker was the perfect place for it, I just can't see it happen in a satisfying way anymore, it would rehash the theme of Endwalker better than Endwalker. Satisfying in a horror kind of way, I don't enjoy characters dying in a sadistic fashion of course.



All that said the Urianger quest on the moon was great tho.

Reminder this thread has a discord where you can mald in real time. :P

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Originally Posted by Moebious

Biggest moment of jolt, was probably in the Elpis scenario, realizing everything is predetermined, the literal, "Chosen One", not just some random person who fought against concepts of fate and destinies, but was all along predetermined on a path they had no real choice over. Complete and utter manipulation of entire of the person's fate. There never was any question of whom or what you were, you were always just some special 'Chosen X' from the past soul, your individuality hasn't changed or anything, no real character progression actually, you were the same then as you are now, somehow. All the deaths, calculated to the predestined need of the moment. Makes things rather cold, calculated, and very sinister.

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Exactly this. It's even worse when you factor in that Azem was Venat's protege and that she knew she was not only condemning Emet by sparing him, but also all of the souls within Zodiark as well (which include Hythlodaeus) who would be in indefinite purgatory. Not to mention that she knew of the bond between Azem and Emet and banked on that as part of her plan, so the whole thing was also grossly emotionally manipulative. I will forever be salty that Emet didn't rip her a new one in UT. Incidentally, the fact that people include Venat in the "trio" with Emet and Hyth is absolutely galling to me after what she did to them. Hell, the fact that the WoL does not seem to care even a little bit that Venat essentially murdered their original self I'll never understand, nor the community's complete willingness to overlook it either.

Regardless :P, yes, the time loop unfortunately not only ruined EW, but retroactively the rest of the game. I can't fathom why they thought this was a good idea. My best explanation is they thought a 'full circle' storyline would be nice when, instead, it just makes Venat look like a monster and every other character look like pawns in her sick game. The WoL was groomed by her and when people bring up, "How could we think Hydaelyn's evil when she's helped us?" Literally her entire plan rests on the WoL, she has a vested interest in them not dying so of course she's going to pull out all the stops. I've seen so many people compare her actions to an abusive relationship (familial or otherwise) and saying she's a textbook example of a narcissist.

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Originally Posted by SpitbreakFTW

I hate to rob your joy here, but that is the exact point at which I felt the quality of that story begins to plummet.

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Well, I am nowhere near done with halfway or so through with the Citadel DLC and, let me tell you, I pity the dead who can no longer know such joys.

The whole DLC has been a riot. The actual plot was over and done with pretty quickly, and now it's just a mountain of night life and character moments. And as completely out of sync with the tone of the rest of the game as it is, I can't help but love it. It's like it's all taking place in its own parallel universe where ME3's plot isn't really happening.

It's easy to compartmentalize away, is what I'm saying. Also, I romanced Garrus back in ME2, and frankly every single moment of that romance has been worth it. But especially this one:

https://i.imgur.com/xXsINKx.png

I only wish I'd been expecting it, so I could've flooded my screenshots folder or recorded it.

I'm actually a little worried about starting Priority: Cerberus HQ, 'cause I get the feeling it will lock me into the endgame upon completion and I don't want to miss a single moment of this glorious DLC.

... but I should probably stop being off-topic and discuss FFXIV instead. Yeah, the reinforcement of the player's Chosen One status really rubbed me the wrong way, too. I had to stop and wonder something about that.

If Azem were to learn of Venat's ambitions for their soul, how would they feel? Would they gladly lie down and die so that one day they would reincarnate into Venat's "Light of the Future"? Or would it destroy them inside, knowing their whole life is nothing more than a means to an end for their own mentor?

I kind of wanted to explore that with Ashes, but I can't really find the room for it to have Atlas discuss it.

Yeah, the story was bad. I recently beat endwalker, and was left with nothing but dissapointment and confusion, many reasons why were allready listed in this thread. I then made a post about it on reddit and discord, and you can imagine how people reacted. saying they threw a tandrum does not make it justice, and they even deleted my post on reddit. what a joke

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

... but I should probably stop being off-topic and discuss FFXIV instead. Yeah, the reinforcement of the player's Chosen One status really rubbed me the wrong way, too. I had to stop and wonder something about that.

If Azem were to learn of Venat's ambitions for their soul, how would they feel? Would they gladly lie down and die so that one day they would reincarnate into Venat's "Light of the Future"? Or would it destroy them inside, knowing their whole life is nothing more than a means to an end for their own mentor?

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If it's the former/bolded, that will be my last straw. :D

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Originally Posted by Lauront

If it's the former/bolded, that will be my last straw. :D

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I hope this won't ever be answered. I feel the less we know about Azem, the better. The disconnect with my pc is already strong enough, I don't need my Azem hc be destroyed further.

Azem being in any way involved in or supportive of the sundering is an automatic deal breaker for me as well.

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Originally Posted by Bismar

they even deleted my post on reddit

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Was yours the 2-parter?

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Originally Posted by Lelila38

I hope this won't ever be answered. I feel the less we know about Azem, the better. The disconnect with my pc is already strong enough, I don't need my Azem hc be destroyed further.

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Yeah. Having the player character be complicit in the extinction of their own species would be a pretty bizarre direction to take.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Yeah. Having the player character be complicit in the extinction of their own species would be a pretty bizarre direction to take.

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Unfortunately, Azem is already somewhat of an incoherent enigma despite their limited presence in the narrative. They defected from the convocation and Ignored Venat's invitation, choosing instead to walk some indeterminate path. Thanks to Panda raid however, we now have to accept that Azem might've had some degree of precognition to allow for Themis to know of our eventual arrival. It might be way too early to tell where they're going with this at the moment, but assuming were meant to take this literally and this isn't a set up for a future gag, it could suggest Azem is already aware of their inevitable fate, which has... unfortunate implications.

So.....what WAS the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

EDIT: Mass Effect 3 stuff. Editing in because making a new post seems... eh.

Javik: Imagine if everyone you knew was dead. You could not remember their faces, or the color of the sky above your home.
Javik: The memories were gone... but so was the pain.
Javik: Would you want to remember that, Commander? Even if it meant watching everyone die again?

My fucking heart. Oh, Elidibus...

EDIT: Doing Priority: Earth now. The setpieces are genuinely pretty challenging for my hot blooded lizard brain, the horror of what's happened around me is basically what I wanted from the Final Days outside of a single instance in Thavnair, and the sheer tension in every aspect of this mission is so palpable I can taste it.

Also, Javik is Elidibus. And Emet-Selch. And a better Venat than Venat. You know why? Because Javik ADMITS THAT HE FAILED. There is no 1,000 IQ 5D Wizard's Chess that only makes sense if the character is a total sociopath. The Protheans tried. They genuinely tried their fucking best. And they failed. And Javik owns that failure, whereas Venat is 100% written as an Ends Justify the Means character who is absolutely right (even though she's not).

EDIT: Okay. I have finished Priority: Earth. And... yeah, this is goddamn stupid.

Most of this is great. The entire approach to the Citadel beam is fantastic. The tension of getting hit at the very end, inexplicably surviving, and struggling onto the end is perfect. Probably full of plot holes, but the whole "you took more damage than you could possibly survive and are still going" thing is 100% emotional torque and I'm fine with it.

Even the ending I picked (Destroy) is actually pretty good. Yeah, the Geth die. EDI dies. Every species is set back pretty hard by this, since VI/AI development makes up the backbone of a lot of Mass Effect's technology. But it completely wipes out the Reapers, whereas the other two endings are... they try to paint them as Golden Endings, I know. And I'm sure if I looked them up on Youtube, the writers gave their best shot at making them seem like Golden Endings.

But I hate Golden Endings where they don't make sense, and frankly, I don't think Control or Synthesis make any degree of sense. I don't really want to elaborate why, but the former amounts to "giving one man/woman unchecked power over the galaxy for eternity is a disaster waiting to happen" and the latter amounts to "forcibly altering the existence of all lifeforms without their consent is so abhorrent I'd kill anyone who dared to try (if the game would let me)".

Basically, Synthesis is the Venat ending, but presented as explicitly the morally correct choice instead of "the ends justify the means!". I was already against Venat, so... yeah.

But I think the biggest takeaway I had from watching these endings is that you could remove Control and Synthesis, along with the entire existence of the Starchild, and it would only make the Mass Effect 3's ending better.

All in all: Great experience, great trilogy, writing was hit or miss at times, somehow tripped into a backflip at the end zone and fumbled the ball.

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Originally Posted by Nilroreo

Pandaemonium

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It's my sincere hope that our arrival and adventures in Pandaemonium are paving the way for an eventual "Split Timeline" reveal. The first tier capped off with the guy who asked us to time travel more or less saying "You've changed the past, but somehow it hasn't affected the present", which could easily be seen as supporting such a development. But it could just as easily mean that the writers are now playing with Back to the Future/Chrono Trigger rules, which are also rife with unfortunate implications of their own. Stuff like "If we're just casually rewriting history, where does the unwritten history go?".

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

It's my sincere hope that our arrival and adventures in Pandaemonium are paving the way for an eventual "Split Timeline" reveal. The first tier capped off with the guy who asked us to time travel more or less saying "You've changed the past, but somehow it hasn't affected the present", which could easily be seen as supporting such a development.

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Unfortunately, I suspect this is going to be more time loop nonsense, but EW turned me into even more of a pessimist. :P

Elidibus' fate in our timeline is likely unchanged unless they retcon it. I would love something after Pandemonium where we find out Emet & Hyth were able to retrieve Elidibus' soul from the First, especially because that would make the intervention in SoS not appear so brutal given EW context. As much as I'd like an AU, I still want to 'fix' our timeline as much as possible and part of that is Elidibus not having burned through his soul for time travel fuel.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

snip

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Now that you’re done, I can say that the reason I think it’s not the best comparison is because ME3 set up the Reapers as a threat too powerful and too grave to reasonably deal with, so they ended up pulling a mediocre out-of-nowhere superweapon to handle it for us. The tension was there, the sense of dread was there, but too much of a good thing rolled over into being a threat that didn’t make sense to beat. By comparison, as anti-climactic as it was, at least we nipped the Final Days in the bud before it became a threat so grave that it’d require Catalyst-level nonsense to actually deal with.

And while it was still nonsense in its own way, Dynamis was nowhere near as nonsense as the Catalyst (both the object and the character).

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

snip

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I agree that they built the Reapers up too much to have a reasonable solution to them. But I don't think it bothers me all that much that the unreasonable solution was "blow them up with a really big bomb". That it was such an oddly specific bomb... yeah, that bothers me.

Otherwise it's just like... Lavos. So powerful it can manipulate the flow of time and space, brainwash people to do its bidding, alter and guide the genetic evolution of an entire planet's lifeforms... but Crono whacking it in the face with a sword a dozen or two times is enough to put it down for good (until the sequel).

EDIT: Also, I think I'd hate the the Crucible a hell of a lot more if I'd played the game before the endings got expanded on. Back when it was just "pick the color of your ending".
Also also, I can't believe this slipped my mind, but the very idea that you can only use the weapon made to destroy the Reapers with their explicit approval just baffles me. But that's just another reason for me to say "Removing the Starchild would make the ending better".

Where Dynamis gets me is that it's not even remotely clear that it was necessary to enable the final confrontation with Meteion. All it's ever used for is emulating things that other power sources could already do. Limit Breaks were explicitly aether-based until the Endsinger opened her mouth to squawk "dYnAmIs?!" at us. The telepathy and universal translation stuff was stuff the Echo could reasonably do... or already did. As was the whole "transcending your limits" thing. It's literally called Transcendent Power or something rather than "the Echo" in the Japanese text, iirc.

It's like Dynamis is trying to be the Unreasonable Solution to the Insurmountable Problem, like the Crucible/Catalyst was to the Reapers. Except the problem doesn't seem nearly as insurmountable as the writers wanted it to be, and more reasonable and less genocidal means of dealing with Meteion seem plenty viable as well.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

I agree that they built the Reapers up too much to have a reasonable solution to them. But I don't think it bothers me all that much that the unreasonable solution was "blow them up with a really big bomb". That it was such an oddly specific bomb... yeah, that bothers me.

Otherwise it's just like... Lavos. So powerful it can manipulate the flow of time and space, brainwash people to do its bidding, alter and guide the genetic evolution of an entire planet's lifeforms... but Crono whacking it in the face with a sword a dozen or two times is enough to put it down for good (until the sequel).

EDIT: Also, I think I'd hate the the Crucible a hell of a lot more if I'd played the game before the endings got expanded on. Back when it was just "pick the color of your ending".
Also also, I can't believe this slipped my mind, but the very idea that you can only use the weapon made to destroy the Reapers with their explicit approval just baffles me. But that's just another reason for me to say "Removing the Starchild would make the ending better".

Where Dynamis gets me is that it's not even remotely clear that it was necessary to enable the final confrontation with Meteion. All it's ever used for is emulating things that other power sources could already do. Limit Breaks were explicitly aether-based until the Endsinger opened her mouth to squawk "dYnAmIs?!" at us. The telepathy and universal translation stuff was stuff the Echo could reasonably do... or already did. As was the whole "transcending your limits" thing. It's literally called Transcendent Power or something rather than "the Echo" in the Japanese text, iirc.

It's like Dynamis is trying to be the Unreasonable Solution to the Insurmountable Problem, like the Crucible/Catalyst was to the Reapers. Except the problem doesn't seem nearly as insurmountable as the writers wanted it to be, and more reasonable and less genocidal means of dealing with Meteion seem plenty viable as well.

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What annoyed me more about the Reapers is that the first and second game set up a perfect "Achilles' Heel" for them -- that is, the whole "Assuming Direct Control" thing.

In the first game, Sovereign BSODed when he tried to assume control of Saren, and that's the only reason the Citadel Fleets were even able to beat it. Until then, Sovereign was stomping them. Then, when Harbinger was introduced in the sequel, we see that the workaround the Reapers have come up with for this is to assume control of someone who can also assume control of someone else. That way, as long as the direct host is not killed, the Reaper themself doesn't have to worry. I thought for sure that they were setting this up for an organic way to stop the Reapers in the third game.

But then, nope....Eleventh-Hour superweapon. Hell, the Collectors don't even reappear for the entirety of the third game outside of DLC and multiplayer. From what I heard, the reason for taking out the Collectors was that the dev team were upset with how overused Harbinger was as a meme. Which is....childish, to put it mildly. Harbinger was ridiculously quotable, yes, but the Collectors were also such an enjoyable part of Mass Effect 2 that the third game was absolutely worse for it. Especially if their removal also resulted in the aforementioned foreshadowing, and made Harbinger completely silent for the literal finale of its saga.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

From what I heard, the reason for taking out the Collectors was that the dev team were upset with how overused Harbinger was as a meme.

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That is a massive shame. I liked Harbinger as a villain. I think I'd have preferred him over the Starchild.

Apparently there's a mod that does exactly what I wanted: Removes the Starchild and the Three(Four) choices entirely, replacing it with a modified version of the Destroy Ending. I say modified because it also removes EDI and the Geth's deaths (if you kept the latter alive), which is... well, I do like that there are negative consequences to eliminating the Reapers.

But yeah. A better foreshadowed solution would've definitely been preferred.

I had a longer post typed up but decided against posting it. Today was bad, I feel more isolated and belittled than I already was when it comes to this game's future and direction. This isn't my game or my story anymore. It's theirs.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Today was bad, I feel more isolated and belittled than I already was when it comes to this game's future and direction. This isn't my game or my story anymore. It's theirs.

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Aveyond, join the Convocation. You don't belong here.

Seriously though, I know you're adverse to interacting with the community, but most of the people who agree with you are in the thread Discord. https://discord.gg/uzUNyK4T

Also, if it makes you feel any better, your threads were linked and translated by JP players on 5ch. They echo a lot of the same issues you've voiced.

The Leviathan DLC was fucking amazing though. Might've been the peak of the whole series for me. Fit my exact taste in terms of tone, aesthetic, and story beats.

"And the Reapers who trespass this world will understand our power. They will become our slaves. Today, they pay their tribute in blood."

That was my shit.

It really makes me wish Endwalker leaned a lot harder into the cosmic horror angle. They almost had something there with Endsinger but made her way too... human. I would've liked it a lot more if her origin was Meteion's sisters encountering some horrid something in space instead of just a bunch of dead or dying civilizations. I know a lot of people in this thread prefer "harder" (i.e. hard/soft science or magic) explanations for these kinds of things, but I would've loved it if Endsinger was something intentionally inconsistent or nigh-inexplicable with the universe's internal logic.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I had a longer post typed up but decided against posting it. Today was bad, I feel more isolated and belittled than I already was when it comes to this game's future and direction. This isn't my game or my story anymore. It's theirs.

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You're a king bro, don't worry. As someone who has felt disconnected from the community from the start, I understand the feeling. But don't worry about it, you've got supporters, and are one of the few people on here who care enough to write out long responses to things, while remaining pretty reasonable.

Side note, mass effect has a better story than FFXIV could ever hope to have. Not that the FFXIV story is all bad, but even with the bad ending mass effect absolutely sweeps every single FF game, including 14. This has been an OBJECTIVE statement from the Mass Effect Follower. Don't even know how it was brought up, just thought I'd share my objective opinion on it.

I mean, yeah, but FF stories are basically just the popcorn flicks of RPG stories so it’s not really fair to compare them to Mass Effect. The goals of the two are entirely different.

(I’d also argue that some of the high points of the FF franchise like Tidus and Kuja’s character arcs and all of Crisis Core are at least on par in terms of their nuances and characterization but that’s a discussion for another day.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I had a longer post typed up but decided against posting it. Today was bad, I feel more isolated and belittled than I already was when it comes to this game's future and direction. This isn't my game or my story anymore. It's theirs.

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But... It's always been theirs...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I had a longer post typed up but decided against posting it. Today was bad, I feel more isolated and belittled than I already was when it comes to this game's future and direction. This isn't my game or my story anymore. It's theirs.

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It's unfortunate but the recent Live Letter simply made it clear that this isn't actually a story driven game any longer. It just pretends to be one. Anyone invested in the story is punished for paying attention and even more so if they dare to want depth rather than lazy 'hApPy EnDiNgS' that mysteriously clad the protagonists in plot armour, give them everything they want and force the antagonists to lose absolutely everything they care about - including their ideals. Even the antagonists that stick around - such as Fordola and Gaius - are forced to admit that they were 'wrong' in a way that punishes them disproportionately.

I've already got one foot out of the door. The shift towards slice of life and 'comedy' already annoyed me but now the relic weapons are being tired to something that I loathe and find to be beyond childish. I'm going to be using Elder Scrolls Online as a stepping stone until Ashes of Creation comes out. This is no longer the game I fell in love with and it isn't going back to where I want it to be. Players who actually liked the setting for what it originally was have, unfortunately, been thrown under the bus.

I agree with Rulakir's suggestion, though - you're certainly not alone in your thoughts.

Yep, at this point I just don't see much room for improvement. Pandaemonium is about the only thing I have to look forward to and even with that storyline, I am worried they're just going to mess up the ancient backstory further.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

until Ashes of Creation comes out.

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I actually can't wait for it to release. I played in Alpha and healers lvl10 there were better designed than in FFXIV.

I've never been a fan of Hildabrand and that type of humour, so its unfortunate that he's part of the relic questline. I guess this really is the direction the game is heading?

I don't expect future mmorpgs to hold their stories to any good standard. It's drastically easier to tell a cohesive plot when your game isn't going on indefinitely. And even if they take the self contained per expansion approach they will always be held back by the fact they're still mmorpgs, limiting the risks you can take.

Likewise the industry realised the only way to maintain mmorpgs with production quality equivalent to WoW or higher they need to make the game appeal to people who quite frankly want all the progress and reward but don't like the pve content cycles enough to like being challenged and only see the necessity of cooperating with other players as an annoyance.

So I have no faith in Ashes of Creation. And I think I'll be lucky if Pantheon ever fully delivers what was promised from the start.

I think these attempts at making mmorpgs feel like offline rpgs have all been miserable failures at best in the execution. Because the features that make them MMOs will always get in the way.

FF games have very easy to digest writing and they don't really go very deep, but at least prior to XIII (except VIII) they had something that XIV lacks: cohesion.

XIV's writing was doomed from the beginning since ARR was being handled by people who have complete disdain by the foundations after all.

There will NEVER be any mmorpg with the writing of the likes of Mass Effect, the original Dragon Age, Xenogears... XIV couldn't even rehash Chrono Trigger properly since their time travel rules change to whatever is convenient for the expansion. And there will never be a mmorpg that offers challenge at least at the level of the easiest single player Final Fantasy not called Mystic Quest during its main story.

So really the way I see it MMOs are a terrible place to look for anything well written or with balanced difficulty with any level of decision making. I'm really done with the genre entirely.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I've already got one foot out of the door. The shift towards slice of life and 'comedy' already annoyed me but now the relic weapons are being tired to something that I loathe and find to be beyond childish.

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O horror! O harrow!
O tyranny! O, humour in a game!

... The irony of such statements. Often coming from those who end up acting exceedingly childish themselves. Who do you think it is that writes this "childish" comedy?

Adults. Adults who wants to create. Adults who want to bring joy to others. Adults working to enjoy the world to the fullest and not restrict themselves with childish attitudes towards anything not deemed "mature".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Aveyond, join the Convocation. You don't belong here.

Seriously though, I know you're adverse to interacting with the community, but most of the people who agree with you are in the thread Discord. https://discord.gg/uzUNyK4T

Also, if it makes you feel any better, your threads were linked and translated by JP players on 5ch. They echo a lot of the same issues you've voiced.

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Thank you for this, though I don't talk much on discord I'll give some of the channels a read through when I get the chance. Today I think I'm gonna take a break and play some more FFXI. Even after so many years that game is still comforting to log into. There's still a handful of jobs I still haven't fully levelled yet. I also may as well chase down the remaining relic armor and weapons I don't have in that game instead of going after FFXIV's Manderville relics.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

O horror! O harrow!
O tyranny! O, humour in a game!

... The irony of such statements. Often coming from those who end up acting exceedingly childish themselves. Who do you think it is that writes this "childish" comedy?

Adults. Adults who wants to create. Adults who want to bring joy to others. Adults working to enjoy the world to the fullest and not restrict themselves with childish attitudes towards anything not deemed "mature".

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There is such a thing as "too much".

Obviously I love hildibrand's quests but I agree with comments that XIV's writing got worse when they started leaking hildibrand style comedy into the MSQ so often.

Endwalker often downplayed it's doom atmosphere drastically willy nilly too. Every story has its breathers but they handled it extremely poorly paced here, with and without the humor.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

There is such a thing as "too much".

Obviously I love hildibrand's quests but I agree with comments that XIV's writing got worse when they started leaking hildibrand style comedy into the MSQ so often.

Endwalker often downplayed it's doom atmosphere drastically willy nilly too. Every story has its breathers but they handled it extremely poorly paced here, with and without the humor.

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I don't even disagree with the argument that the comedy in Endwalker was mostly a "miss" for me. But, to be honest, the VAST majority of comedy in FFXIV is a miss for me. I can easily point to the 4.0 WAR quests as an example where I just did not care and never even cracked a smile.

But the "slice of life" arguments are hyperbolic, from where I sit. For the most part, these were not segments where we help Krile ask out the cute boy in English class or help Estinien try out for the basketball team. Even The-Scene-Which-Shall-Not-Be-Named and the dreaded Estinien night scene are either commentary on the events of the story, or (particularly in the latter case) the characters trying to psych themselves (and the WOL) for whatever dangers are about to come. Do I think these scenes were 100% necessary and added integral depth and intrigue into the plot? No. But where I stand, they also aren't "abject proof that SE has lost its way", either.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

XIV's writing was doomed from the beginning since ARR was being handled by people who have complete disdain by the foundations after all.

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To be fair, the story went sideways after the new writer took over during Stormblood. By the way, don't compare Xenogears with Mass Effect, that's just rude, lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

O horror! O harrow!
O tyranny! O, humour in a game!

... The irony of such statements. Often coming from those who end up acting exceedingly childish themselves. Who do you think it is that writes this "childish" comedy?

Adults. Adults who wants to create. Adults who want to bring joy to others. Adults working to enjoy the world to the fullest and not restrict themselves with childish attitudes towards anything not deemed "mature".

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You seem to be leaping to some rather bizarre conclusions! I don't have an issue with 'funny' scenes being present. I have an issue with the lack of variety. The very same people insisting that people should 'get over it' and just accept every other side quest revolving around comedy are often the same people screeching about how even the slightest bit of grit or consequence in the story is 'too far'. If you read through this thread a common suggestion is for variety and a healthy balance to be embraced. Not...whatever the game has spiralled into becoming.

Let's not forget that this is all happening after the game decided to artificially cut short some of the main storylines that many of us were following and enjoying. We know the reasons for cutting them short were something of a lie too - because the 'new stories' are just tugging at existing plot threads such as the Void and Sil'dih.

Furthermore, this is a game with players from all over the world. Variety is required to appease different tastes, not just without block of players happen to be the loudest and most active on social media.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

O horror! O harrow!
O tyranny! O, humour in a game!

... The irony of such statements. Often coming from those who end up acting exceedingly childish themselves. Who do you think it is that writes this "childish" comedy?

Adults. Adults who wants to create. Adults who want to bring joy to others. Adults working to enjoy the world to the fullest and not restrict themselves with childish attitudes towards anything not deemed "mature".

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Thanks for the TED talk, very informative.

I'm beginning to think this is a dev issue rather than a player issue. Like covid, Soken's cancer, and whatever else we may not know about just wrecked the team so much they can't handle working on anything but fluff now. I'm flashing back to Yoshi-P's comments about how they have to be into what they're doing and I guess what they're into right now is abject silliness. This doesn't bode well for the rest of EW if they considered 6.0 to be so heavy* that the rest of the patches are just going to be nonsense.

* It really wasn't, not with lack of consequences and the gratuitous amount of jarring, immersion breaking 'comic relief' scenes.

Speaking of which, FF14's general brand of humor doesn't work for me either. I just want a good story and it's looking like ShB was the end of that. I'm an adult, if I feel the game themes are too much or that all I want to do is laugh I'll log off and watch a stand-up comic. I don't play FF14 for comedy and trying to force me to 'have fun' with very subjective forms of humor isn't what I'm looking from my gaming experience. FF14 already wasn't as serious or dark as the other numbered titles, but now it's straight up starting to feel like the kiddie pool version of FF titles.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

now it's straight up starting to feel like the kiddie pool version of FF titles.

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Can't really agree with this, either. FFXIV's humor doesn't land with me, true, but I hardly found that uncharacteristic for the series. Final Fantasy humor has rarely ever been high-brow or sophisticated. FFVII did a whole comedy routine based on Cloud bathing with a bunch of oiled-up muscleheads and being picked by the resident r--ist as his toy for the night. FFIX has a segment where you play Red-Light-Green-Light as a frog.

To be frank, the one FF game where the humor was mostly on-the-mark for me was FFXV. (A large chunk of that was Ardyn, but there were funny interactions between the main heroes as well.)

I guess FFXIV's "crime" here, as it were, is that everything is so padded and stretched out that when a joke "Doesn't Land", you have to watch the plane crashing in slllllloooooooooowww motion. Whereas most prior examples in the series just ripped the bandaid off quick.

Having more light-hearted scenes is generally alright and not a problem, but FFXIV lately struggles heavily with the fact that you have to be very, very careful where in the story you decide to utilize them.

Having fast food while you are fully aware that in other parts of the world people are getting their souls shredded due to the apocalypse is just bad placement for that kind of scene - it would belong to the very start or the very end when there is no other, highly time-sensitive issue that needs to be addressed.

The loporrits did not feel like a natural continuation of the moon, they just were sudden, unfitting comic relief after we were exposed to some important information and fought a very important fight - and once again, we know that the Final Days are going to start all over, and having a bunch of furry creatures beat the dead horse that was the constant jokes about Rabbits! Carrots! was just jarring. But the loporrits are a whole other can of worms in itself.

And we will not talk about Y'shtola's magical girl thing and her happily sending her familiars into the great unknown.

If you are not careful with where and how you place these scenes and comedy beats, then you end up with a jumbled mess that can be stressful to digest at best and jarring and outright annoying at the worst.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Can't really agree with this, either. FFXIV's humor doesn't land with me, true, but I hardly found that uncharacteristic for the series. Final Fantasy humor has rarely ever been high-brow or sophisticated. FFVII did a whole comedy routine based on Cloud bathing with a bunch of oiled-up muscleheads and being picked by the resident r--ist as his toy for the night. FFIX has a segment where you play Red-Light-Green-Light as a frog.

To be frank, the one FF game where the humor was mostly on-the-mark for me was FFXV. (A large chunk of that was Ardyn, but there were funny interactions between the main heroes as well.)

I guess FFXIV's "crime" here, as it were, is that everything is so padded and stretched out that when a joke "Doesn't Land", you have to watch the plane crashing in slllllloooooooooowww motion. Whereas most prior examples in the series just ripped the bandaid off quick.

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Those other games typically have actual consequences for either the world or the main cast though, so those light hearted moments are somewhat warranted. Whereas literally nothing happens to the main cast and it hasn’t happened in so long. We have the entire moon arc basically taken up by slice of life rabbits wanting us to play dress up. This is then mimicked at the 2nd labyrinthos visit where we spend a huge chunk of time playing tour guide for a bunch of rabbits.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

I guess FFXIV's "crime" here, as it were, is that everything is so padded and stretched out that when a joke "Doesn't Land", you have to watch the plane crashing in slllllloooooooooowww motion. Whereas most prior examples in the series just ripped the bandaid off quick.

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This is it for me, at least.

EX: The entire moon section could be roughly summarized as "Twenty minutes of trying and failing to protect the world's greatest hero from an omnicidal clown, then upwards of an hour of getting Found In The Alps by comic relief rabbits".

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Those other games typically have actual consequences for either the world or the main cast though, so those light hearted moments are somewhat warranted. Whereas literally nothing happens to the main cast and it hasn’t happened in so long. We have the entire moon arc basically taken up by slice of life rabbits wanting us to play dress up. This is then mimicked at the 2nd labyrinthos visit where we spend a huge chunk of time playing tour guide for a bunch of rabbits.

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As I've said elsewhere, Endwalker is the "Final Disc" of the FFXIV story. It's the "Hero's Return" portion of the tale where said heroes apply what they've learned into overcoming whatever the final adversary of the plot is. Sure, more dire stakes would have been cool, but it didn't make or break the arc. However, with that said, the reason the problem is so pronounced is because of the constant fake-outs. If you're not going to kill anyone in the main cast, then fine.....but stop trying to pretend that you might.

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Originally Posted by Tama-Kanzashi

Having fast food while you are fully aware that in other parts of the world people are getting their souls shredded due to the apocalypse is just bad placement for that kind of scene - it would belong to the very start or the very end when there is no other, highly time-sensitive issue that needs to be addressed.

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But that hadn't even happened yet, by that point in the story.