Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

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Originally Posted by Ozpa

I've found this roation EasymodeX posted in another thread:

HT IDC P TTT H TTT
P IDC HT TTT P TTT

I believe I can do jumps after the same skills (CT and FT) and spam BFB/IR/LS whenever available too, right? It just takes some time for me to learn a new rotation (muscle memory) and I don't want to invest weeks into what I will change again later. Without nitpicking it too much, this should be the most versatile and damaging rotation to date then?

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It kinda weirds me out when people are surprised to see that rotation. It's in the guide. It's this one:

HT-ID-Dis-CT-Ph-TT-VT-FT-HT-TT-VT-FT-Ph-ID-Dis-CT-HT-TT-VT-FT-Ph-TT-VT-FT

Don't forget to use Fracture after buffed CTs or you'll clip 'em though.

It's all about the right marketing and branding.

Maybe we should give these rotations fancy names so people will recognize them more easily when they see them.

....... nevermind.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

It's all about the right marketing and branding.

Maybe we should give these rotations fancy names so people will recognize them more easily when they see them.

....... nevermind.

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oh god.. rift all over again

"do you use the dusk rotation?" "no i use H-whatever his face's rotation". you had like 4 that were 1 button different and people would fight over who came up with it first and such -.-

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

It kinda weirds me out when people are surprised to see that rotation. It's in the guide. It's this one:

HT-ID-Dis-CT-Ph-TT-VT-FT-HT-TT-VT-FT-Ph-ID-Dis-CT-HT-TT-VT-FT-Ph-TT-VT-FT

Don't forget to use Fracture after buffed CTs or you'll clip 'em though.

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One Fracture is enough to fill that horrid gap between your TTT and IDC combos without IDC clipping? Good to know, I usually throw in a jump around that time to fill that black hole.

Using 2-3 jumps or Fracture will delay it enough to avoid the clip (or dodging most mechanics).

You should call it the hard rotation.

Because I call it that in my sim.

Because its the opposite of easy =)

(its actually just to differentiate it from the priority rotation, which is soft as in "liquid, easy to change" while the hard is hard as in "hard as rock, unchanging")

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Originally Posted by AzumaKun

One Fracture is enough to fill that horrid gap between your TTT and IDC combos without IDC clipping? Good to know, I usually throw in a jump around that time to fill that black hole.

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It depends on how you approach it really. Though it's easy to compensate for the initial opening of the rotation, from that point onwards your BFB and IR will be applied at staggered positions, so you'll always have to be thinking about whether you need a Fracture or not depending on what buffs are active when you apply every CT. That might work for some, I find it annoying, and you sacrifice the TP benefits of using a rotation that never needs Fracture.

If I want a rotation without Fracture (high uptime fights or TP heavy fights...which are often the same fights since higher uptime drains more TP) I just use the fourth rotation in the guide which doesn't require it at all.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

You should call it the hard rotation.

Because I call it that in my sim.

Because its the opposite of easy =)

(its actually just to differentiate it from the priority rotation, which is soft as in "liquid, easy to change" while the hard is hard as in "hard as rock, unchanging")

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Whenever I attempt to describe the pros and cons of the individual rotations presented I usually tend to think of them as: 1) Learning rotation, 2) Dummy rotation, 3) Modified Learning, and 4) TP conservation.

You know what, I'm going to call it the panda rotation regardless and everyone else should too.

So anyway, because I'm so incredibly experienced in playing dragoon, the panda rotation should serve all your needs because it is so modular.

You can easily replace an HT with a P and vicea versa for boss disconnects, and delaying an IDC is not too much of a dps decrease either.

Because you can break them into 4 GCD chunks it shouldn't be too hard to learn boss fights too.

Panda rotation for president.

Good job on the thread, it looks like you've done your work. I personally skimmed thru the first paragraph then gave up. I got my own rotation and looking at your suggestions it appears we aren't far from the same thing though, kudos.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Panda rotation for president.

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http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs5/i/200...dashopping.jpg

It was more than likely discussed earlier but in a quick scan of the pages I was unable to find it, but would anyone mind discussing aoe dpsing? I struggle with tp management every time I try a wp speed run. When invigorate is up I'm ok but when it's not I end up Ll but sitting half the fight out....

WP speedruns are different from normal AOE.

1. HT-ROT spam (no DS) is the most damage/tp for 3-4 targets. This will lighten the load on normal dungeon runs where you have multiple extended 3-5 target pulls compared to spamming DS. For example, this is your go-to AK cycle. If you feel like burning TP, then Doomspike still works and is more DPS, but it will eat through your TP unnecessarily.

2. Doomspike beats HT-ROT spam for both dps and dpTP for 5+ targets. Note: obviously you still maintain the HT buff. Also, obviously you use ROT when you refresh the HT buff.
BLM).

3. For WP speedruns, your "only" cycle will be the default HT-ROT -> Doomspike spammm. The trick is that you need to time your cooldowns between pulls. Your cooldowns are: BFB, DFD, Invigorate. Never use Invig on a single target (boss). Never use DFD on a boss. BFB should be up for virtually every pull. Never use BFB late in a boss fight.

Also, your other DPS needs to not suck. If they suck then the DRG will run out of TP before the mobs are sufficiently dying. If they don't suck, you'll have sufficient TP to keep a good pace in the run (basically second best DPS from a DPS class behind BLMs).

I'll put this t good use. Thank you!

Make sure you credit the panda rotation once you become the best dragoon ever.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

1. HT-ROT spam (no DS) is the most damage/tp for 3-4 targets.

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You sure about that?

Assuming HT buff:

HT-ROT (3 targets): (170+150*3)/(70+120)= ~3.26 DPT, 310 DPG
CT combo (4 out of 10 CT ticks): (180+220+160*1.11+20*4)/(70+60+60)= ~3.46 DPT, 219.2 DPG
FT combo: ((150+200+300))*1.11/(70+60+60)= ~3.42 DPT, 216.7 DPG
CT combo (10 out of 10 CT ticks): (180+220+160*1.11+20*10)/(70+60+60)= ~4.09 DPT, 259.2 DPG
FT combo (Dis. debuff): ((150+200+300))*1.11/(70+60+60)= ~3.80 DPT, 240.5 DPG

It seems like all CT/FT combo variants are superior per TP (for 3 targets) and if you're aiming for damage/global for bursting (BfB, etc.) you may as well use 3-target DS (3 DPT, 480 DPG).

I tend to use DS for 4 targets as well because the DPT difference is insignificant:

HT-ROT (4 targets): (170+150*4)/(70+120)= ~4.05 DPT, 385 DPG
DS (4 targets): (160*4)/(160)= ~4 DPT, 640 DPG
*CT Combo's DPT surpasses both at the full 10 DoT ticks only.

the exception being when I have to make every TP count of course (REALLY bad DPS, low TP, etc.) The general rule of thumb I follow is to alternate between best DPT and DPG rotations. DPT rotation for most situations, DPG for when I'm buffed (BfB) and to prevent myself from over-regening (=> wasting TP=> wasting damage potential) between pulls.

I agree with everything else, though.

edit: fudged Disembowel's potency, and yes meant potency in all cases of damage

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Originally Posted by Swarna

You sure about that?

Assuming HT buff:

HT-ROT (3 targets): (170+150*3)/(70+120)= ~3.26 DPT, 310 DPG

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Do you mean potency instead of damage? I also assume DPG refers to potency per GCD?

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

Do you mean potency instead of damage? I also assume DPG refers to potency per GCD?

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Yeah, meant potency in all instances of damage. Sorry.

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You sure about that?

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The damage / TP was in reference to Doomspike comparison, so no, actually.

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Assuming HT buff: [math]

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Good point. In terms of actual DPT, ST[3] is better DPT than HT-ROT[3].


One thing I noticed when I was originally running AK though is that the exercise is to maximize DPS while still maintaining non-dry TP. Single target TP per second was simply too low to ever run out in that situation, allowing you to spend more TP to gain more DPS (shifting to HT-ROT).

Doomspike spam is generally "meh" for 3-pulls because it exhausts TP too quickly before the targets die, leaving you at low TP for the next and then the next fight, resulting in reaally slow killing.


HT-ROT ended up being a happy medium for 3-pulls because it dealt more DPS without running dry. Associating that scenario result with DPT and DPG is inaccurate, though, whoops ^_^.


I think it would be an interesting simulation exercise to compare HT-ROT[3] versus alternating ST[3] + DS[3], though.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

I think it would be an interesting simulation exercise to compare HT-ROT[3] versus alternating ST[3] + DS[3], though.

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I would definitely be interested in that. Without any proof or calculations I have a nagging suspicion that the latter is superior for pulls where you use BfB simply because you fit a higher proportion of your damage potential into the limited 20s duration (Doom Spikes) rather than an equal proportion of it (HT-ROT is constant throughout).

e.g.

if HT-ROT is equal to HT-ROT>DS<>ST
then:
HT-ROT<>(HT-ROT) is weaker than (DS)<>ST

Where the () denotes when you are using BfB.

Without more in-depth calculations I can't confirm this, though.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Make sure you credit the panda rotation once you become the best dragoon ever.

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President Panda , making dps rotation affordable to all:

"You can keep your rotation if you like."


:D

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Originally Posted by xyaie

We'll see how that goes. Ill get she is gonna force us to change and put small non theorycrafting free companies out of business

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More like she'll introduce a tax on theorycrafters for their "cadillac" dps rotations...

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Originally Posted by mythicrose

President Panda , making dps rotation affordable to all:

"You can keep your rotation if you like."


:D

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We'll see how that goes. Ill get she is gonna force us to change and put small non theorycrafting free companies out of business

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Originally Posted by Swarna

You sure about that?

Assuming HT buff:

HT-ROT (3 targets): (170+150*3)/(70+120)= ~3.26 DPT, 310 DPG
CT combo (4 out of 10 CT ticks): (180+220+160*1.11+20*4)/(70+60+60)= ~3.46 DPT, 219.2 DPG
FT combo: ((150+200+300))*1.11/(70+60+60)= ~3.42 DPT, 216.7 DPG
CT combo (10 out of 10 CT ticks): (180+220+160*1.11+20*10)/(70+60+60)= ~4.09 DPT, 259.2 DPG
FT combo (Dis. debuff): ((150+200+300))*1.11/(70+60+60)= ~3.80 DPT, 240.5 DPG

It seems like all CT/FT combo variants are superior per TP (for 3 targets) and if you're aiming for damage/global for bursting (BfB, etc.) you may as well use 3-target DS (3 DPT, 480 DPG).

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I think you're looking at how AE works from the wrong angle (also some of the numbers are a little off since if you're assuming HT buff is up then you need to apply it to HT-RoT). You might get slightly higher damage for your TP from single target abilities, but you're only applying that damage to a single mob. For example, take a fully buffed set of single target moves, and compare those to a buffed AE moveset.

HT must be refreshed if down, and DE must be applied to each mob, so you'd get this:
170+198+242+181+242+363

HT buffed HT-RoT gives a potency of:
170-165 followed by 187-165


We'll consider a pack of 3 mobs, each of which requires 1000 potency to kill. With Full Thrust the process would look like this:
HT-ID-Dis-TT-VT *switch* FT-ID-Dis-HT *switch* ID-Dis-TT-VT-FT *done*
170+198+242+181+242=1033 *mob 1 dies* 330+198+242+187=957 *mob 2 dies* 198+242+181+242+363=1226 *mob 3 dies*

Give or take some autoattack damage (such as on mob #2 which I cut at 957 cause an autoattack would make up the difference), it'll take somewhere around 12-14 GCDs to kill all 3.

With HT-RoT it looks like this (M1=mob 1):
HT@M1-RoT | HT@M2-RoT | HT@M3-RoT | HT@M1-RoT | HT@M2 | ID-Dis@M3
170-165 | 187-165 | 187-165 | 187-165 *mob 1 dies* | 187 *mob 2 dies* | 198-242 *mob 3 dies*

Most of the mobs were dead after 9 GCDs, with two extra used to kill off the final mob with single target damage.

You might get slightly more damage for your TP on a single target, but the overall group damage is much lower and so everything will take longer to kill.

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

I think you're looking at how AE works from the wrong angle...

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Look at what I was replying to. I was simply making the point that every variant of single-target chains yields higher damage per TP spent. I didn't make the case that it cuts down clearing time or that it boasted a higher damage per global (I actually showed that it was higher for HT-ROT with the stated DPG values). It's already very obvious that HT-ROT spam can kill a group of 3 in less globals than just single-targeting so your simulation of an example of events isn't contradicting anything I said.

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Originally Posted by Swarna

Look at what I was replying to. I was simply making the point that every variant of single-target chains yields higher damage per TP spent. I didn't make the case that it cuts down clearing time or that it boasted a higher damage per global (I actually showed that it was higher for HT-ROT with the stated DPG values). It's already very obvious that HT-ROT spam can kill a group of 3 in less globals than just single-targeting so your simulation of an example of events isn't contradicting anything I said.

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Except that you also calculated the damage for HT-RoT incorretly by applying damage buffs to all the other formula, but not to it. In addition, there's not much of a point to showing that single target abilities are 0.7 TP per second more efficient than AE abilities, but you'd still AE anyway because it's way better damage for almost the exact same TP cost. It's information that no one can use for anything.

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

Except that you also calculated the damage for HT-RoT incorretly by applying damage buffs to all the other formula, but not to it.

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Where did I do this? I said assuming you already have the HT buff active (meaning you already have used 1 unbuffed HT-ROT) the relative damage values should be accurate to eachother. The only additional damage buff I applied was the DE buff (x1.11 modifier) for the relevant attacks as stated (and Chaos Thrust's active portion right after a DE).

And I disagree on your latter points. I just did some more number crunching on the merits of using a mix of Doomspikes and single-target combos vs. just plainly HT-ROTing. I'm going to post it in a bit.

Edit: Also, you're brushing off a ~0.7 DPT advantage in favour of about ~50 DPG, but the same logic can be applied to forsaking a ~0.26 DPT advantage on HT-ROT in favour of ~170 extra DPG on Doomspiking.

Back to the topic of determining whether or not HT-ROT spamming is superior to DS-ST alternation for 3 targets: after having some time to think about it in the gym I deduced that it's always going to be a better case to do the latter.

HT-ROT spamming has set damage per TP (DPT) and damage per GCD (DPG) rates. DS-ST's rates are variable based on the usage % of each. If you are a person already content with utilizing HT-ROT spam for 3-target pulls then that means you are content with either its DPT, DPG, or both.

I algebraically calculated (omitted for neatness) some values of Doomspike and some variants of ST chains that would yield the same DPT over time as only HT-ROTing. I decided to show only the results of using non-DE buffed FT combos (as it is typically the worst scenario) and of using CT combos on fresh targets and having the entire DoT tick (as it is typically the best scenario). Almost every other scenario of using single-target attacks lies in-between these two in results.

(We are assuming that the HT buff is active and as such all the globals we are talking about here is excluding the 2 you spend every ~20 seconds to refresh it by doing 1 HT-ROT.)

HT-ROT's DPT is ~3.263 as already established earlier.
DS (~37.5% usage rate)+ non-DE buffed FT combos (~62.5% usage rate) yields ~3.263 DPT. All this means is that if you spend 37.5% of your globals using Doomspike and the rest doing your full FT combo (1 part per global) you are doing the same DPT as if you had just been HT-ROTing.*
DS (~75.9%)+ fully-ticked CT combos (~24.1%) yields 3.263 DPT.

Now what is the difference? The DPG values. One method of damage dealing is outputting it faster than the other (and spending TP faster) at the same DPT rate.

HT-ROT's DPG is 310 as shown in my previous post.
Using the aforementioned usage rates:

DS + non-DE buffed FT combos: ~315.42 (480*0.375+((150+200+300)/3)*0.625)
DS + fully-ticked CT combos: ~426.79 (480*0.759+((180+220+160*1.11+200)/3)*0.241)

Since these are typically the best and worst ways to single-target, all other results will be in-between these DPG values. This means that if you alternate Doomspikes and single-target combos in a way that maintains the same damage/TP cost ratio as HT-ROTing, you will deal more damage in the same amount of time.

Naturally you might say "but my TP runs out faster" or "I like the pacing with which HT-ROT uses my TP". That's why we can also look at a different mixture of Doomspiking/single-targeting that matches the DPG of HT-ROTing and compare the DPT instead. In other words, if HT-ROT deals X damage in Y amount of globals, we can come up with a DS-ST mixture that also deals X damage in Y amount of globals and compare how much TP each method consumes.

After more calculations:

HT-ROT's DPG is 310 as we already know.
DS (~35.5% usage rate) + non-DE buffed FT combos (~64.5%) yields ~310 DPG (actually slightly more)
DS (~77.0%) + fully-ticked CT combos (~23.00%) yields ~310 DPG

Now if you calculate the DPT rate for maintaining 310 DPG with mixtures of DS and ST combos:

DS + non-DE buffed FT combos: ~3.272 DPT ((480/160)*0.355+((150+200+300)/190)*0.654)
DS + fully-ticked CT comboes: ~3.841 DPT ((480/160)*0.77+((180+220+160*1.11+200)/190)*0.23)

Which is higher than the 3.263 DPT rate of HT-ROT. What this means is that you can do the exact same damage per global as HT-ROT with DS and ST combos and spend less TP in doing so (from a small disparity in the worst scenario and up to a very high disparity in the best case scenario).

Also, if your usage rates lie in between the values I've shown for matching the DPT and DPG of HT-ROTing (i.e. you keep your Doomspike usage between the aprox. mentioned 35.5% and 37.5% mark when you are using non-DE buffed FT combos) you will have both higher DPG AND DPT than HT-ROT and this is how I can definitely say that DS-ST alternation is superior to HT-ROT.

You might argue that you could over-Doomspike by accident and do less DPT (waste all your TP) but you've still done more DPG. You can say if you don't Doomspike enough you do less DPG (don't deal as much damage in the same amount of time) but you are still using your TP more efficiently with higher DPT. The point being is that HT-ROT is never outright superior to DS-ST, while DS-ST can be superior in all ways (when you're within certain usage thresholds) and (if you're used to the dungeons you're doing) you can speed up your runs flexibly by deciding when you value a higher DPG (and Doomspike more often) or when you need to conserve TP for something (and Doomspike less often). Not to mention synchronizing your major buffs like Blood for Blood and front-ending all your Doomspikes into it (making up for it with ST combos after) benefits this type of rotation far more than it does the HT-ROT cycle. User error is only a valid excuse for people inexperienced with a dungeon or their lack of awareness of their party members' pace or something else. Playing Dragoon is all about planning your attacks in advance anyways so this shouldn't come as a surprise to any decent Dragoon.

Note: I didn't account for any additional damage you may do with Doomspike if you have DE debuffs applied as a result of single-targeting. Accounting for this would (very slightly) widen the gap further for Doomspiking/single-targeting so I didn't see a need to show it.

tl;dr version:

For packs of 3 mobs:

-HT-ROT and then switching between using Doomspikes and single-target combos intelligently is better than just HT-ROTing repeatedly.
-Either the damage/TP cost, damage/GCD, or both will be superior depending on how you use it and you can manually crank up or down the TP expenditure to adjust this and speed up your runs.
-On the other hand, HT-ROT is a static rotation with no ability to tweak the DPT or DPG to better optimize your runs and it is never going to be superior in both.

If you're inexperienced with the pace of dungeon runs it may be "safer" to HT-ROT. By the same logic, however, you can still TP-starve yourself with just HT-RoTing and it would have been "safer" to use a more single-target heavy rotation. Keeping a general rule of thumb of never letting yourself over-regen TP (tick over 1000) and dumping TP in a manner that ensures you start every pull at around 800-999 (also aiming to effectively use Invigorate every cooldown) should suffice in you using Doomspikes and single-target combos effectively.

*For less numbers inclined people: this is the same as saying that (very roughly) if you are doing 3 Doom spikes for every 2 full (6 globals) non-DE-buffed FT combos (outside of the mandatory HT-ROT, as always) you are using your TP with the same efficiency as just HT-ROTing over and over.

Probably wrong thread to ask (though I'll admit it's lovely), but is anyone else having issues with Leg Sweep's stun not seeming to exist? Does anyone know what triggers it?

To be specific, at times when I perform Leg Sweep, I'll cause the damage and nothing else. I'm not getting any "Stun (Resisted!)" messages popping up. It just seems to act as if there actually isn't a stun component to the skill. It's quite rare that it happens. I usually try interrupting things such as 100-Tonze Swings if the tank is struggling to avoid them, and the stun of Leg Sweep not registering is... both painful and annoying. -_- Am I missing something here? Is there some separate accuracy check for the Stun? Or does it require you to hit from a particular angle, such as the Impulse Drive combo or Heavy Thrust? :p

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Originally Posted by Raminax

I usually try interrupting things such as 100-Tonze Swings if the tank is struggling to avoid them, and the stun of Leg Sweep not registering is...

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There are two different things.

1. A stun can be resisted if you've hit diminishing returns. You're not seeing this; this is not what is happening.

2. Many boss attacks cannot be interrupted. The bosses are immune to stun -- not because of diminishing returns (Resisted!), but because they are coded to give a big F U ,,|,, to interrupt mechanics.


You're seeing #2. Run away from 100-Tonze Swing :p.

That's not it, though. Just yesterday I was doing Aurum Vale several times and interrupted all Eyes of the Beholder without any issues on the Coincounter. The third run of the evening had a tank struggling to get away from the 100-Tonze Swings in time, so I stunned those for him. Then suddenly I failed interrupting the second Eye of the Beholder on the same fight, despite the fact that 100-Tonze Swings happen nowhere near as frequent that you'll run into diminishing returns. I reaaally don't remember getting any resist messages, the Stun effect just didn't seem to exist. :/ Though it may just be that my memory was faulty. Suppose I'll take screenies next time I go there of the combat log.

At least Spineshatter Dive ALWAYS stuns unless the enemy is outright immune to Stuns, but I don't want to rely on that for interrupts due to the long cooldown and animation. :p

That's pretty odd then. Of course, I tend to not try to stun things like 100-Tonze Swings so maybe my memory is off :O.

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Originally Posted by Raminax

Probably wrong thread to ask (though I'll admit it's lovely), but is anyone else having issues with Leg Sweep's stun not seeming to exist? Does anyone know what triggers it?

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Leg Sweep is notoriously unreliable. From my experience whether or not the stun will apply depends entirely on when you use it during your usual ability spam. If you use an ability whose animation is easily canceled then Leg Sweep should be fine, however other abilities do not interrupt as easily and this seems to balls up whether the stun is applied or not. It doesn't matter if you get the stun off while the spell is still casting, it still won't apply (you'll even see the little "+Stun" thing in the scrolling combat text).

It's pretty annoying.

Have you guys been noticing that sometimes Power Surge doesn't apply to Jump or maybe that Jump's damage doesn't get used at all? I'm not 100% sure on this, but here's what I've gathered. Usually off-GCD actions can only be used after the damage from a GCD action is applied, but some actions can have the off-GCD used early before the damage of the GCD action even appears; Disembowel and Chaos Thrust seem to be the usual offenders. But it seems that if you use a jump during this time, sometimes the damage won't apply or the GCD action damage will be applied super late and after the off-GCD, which is bad with Disembowel in particular where you want Disembowel first to amplify your jump damage. Has anyone else seen these things happening?

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Originally Posted by Mantrus

Have you guys been noticing that sometimes Power Surge doesn't apply to Jump or maybe that Jump's damage doesn't get used at all? I'm not 100% sure on this, but here's what I've gathered. Usually off-GCD actions can only be used after the damage from a GCD action is applied, but some actions can have the off-GCD used early before the damage of the GCD action even appears; Disembowel and Chaos Thrust seem to be the usual offenders. But it seems that if you use a jump during this time, sometimes the damage won't apply or the GCD action damage will be applied super late and after the off-GCD, which is bad with Disembowel in particular where you want Disembowel first to amplify your jump damage. Has anyone else seen these things happening?

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Any off-GCD ability can be overwritten by a main ability if you are switching between them too quickly (server lag tends to worsen this problem too). This causes all sorts of problems such as Invigorate not proving 500TP, Life Surge not applying the crit, etc. In your case Power Surge gets used but isn't applied, or Jump goes on cooldown but is never actually used.

This can happen with any class as well, not just Dragoons. Just be careful when you're using oGCD abilities and don't hit your next main ability until the oGCD has successfully applied.

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Originally Posted by Mantrus

Have you guys been noticing that sometimes Power Surge doesn't apply to Jump or maybe that Jump's damage doesn't get used at all?

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Yeah, noticed it happened a couple times. I usually time my first jump after Chaos Thrust (using a Power Surge either before or after Disembowel) and 95% of the time, it goes off fine without a hitch and uses my Power Surge. But every once in a while, it's almost like I'm clipping the animation of Chaos Thrust and jumping sooner than normal. And in my mind, at first I was like, "Yeah! Shorter animations!" but then I noticed most times that happened, my Power Surge would still remain on the bar after the Jump. I'd guess it's some weird animation mechanic thing or server side lag/latency.

Due to all the AE talk over the last couple pages I've added an AE section to the end of the guide so people have some numbers for comparing RoT and DS. It's all pretty intuitive stuff, but I figured people might want the fully worked values.

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

Due to all the AE talk over the last couple pages I've added an AE section to the end of the guide so people have some numbers for comparing RoT and DS. It's all pretty intuitive stuff, but I figured people might want the fully worked values.

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I didn't look over your AoE section in detail, but I have a couple of comments.

1. DoomSpike (DS) is our highest Potency Per Second (PPS) GCD skill or combo starting at just TWO targets. It destroys our TP but helps our DPS in multi-target situations to the extent the TP cost is affordable.

2. Ring of Thorns (RoT) out of combo is more PPS than HT-RoT when there are FOUR or more targets. So it's not strictly correct to say that RoT is useless outside of combo, just TP costly and probably not competitive with other options.

3. Buffs. With Single Target (ST) damage, when exactly you apply buffs like Blood for Blood (B4B) and Internal Release (IR) is not very important. With multiple targets comes the possibility to spam AoE abilities (namely Doomspike) in your buff window. This makes Doomspike (or even RoT out of combo) spam attractive compared to HT-RoT because of the potency you can pack into your buff window.

Good to see an AoE section added to the OPs. I've begun looking into what my AoE options are with the rise of dungeon speed runs and Turn 4 on the horizon for me so I'm glad to see the recent discussion addressing this topic. So far it's opened my eyes to the power of Doomspike.

If a DRG is bursting with BFB + IR, and using HT-ROT + DS + DFD, there's virtually 100% chance you'll pull threat against something (or multiple somethings) in an AOE situation, even against BLMs (who need to catch up by their ... 3rd Flare or so). Then again, that's why DRGs have Bloodbath and Keen Parry.

Only problem is it's not sustainable over a long duration by any stretch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoolieWho

I didn't look over your AoE section in detail, but I have a couple of comments.

1. DoomSpike (DS) is our highest Potency Per Second (PPS) GCD skill or combo starting at just TWO targets. It destroys our TP but helps our DPS in multi-target situations to the extent the TP cost is affordable.

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If something isn't worth doing, such as Doomspiking two targets, there's no way I'm going to suggest anyone actually does it. Single target damage is quite good vs. two target packs, and there is no situation currently in the game where you need to AE two mobs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoolieWho

2. Ring of Thorns (RoT) out of combo is more PPS than HT-RoT when there are FOUR or more targets. So it's not strictly correct to say that RoT is useless outside of combo, just TP costly and probably not competitive with other options.

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That is indeed a fair point. Though as you say, when considered in terms of TP cost for damage you'd be better Doomspiking than using unbuffed RoTs, so it does render them pretty useless. An argument I could see for unbuffed RoTs would be if you could fit more mobs in with a circle AE and you don't care about TP conservation, so that I'll probably add in later.

Thanks for the comments though, I'll be editing that section over the next couple days as I evaluate what is missing.

EDIT: I've added the unbuffed RoT numbers. I don't feel it should ever be used over Doomspike or HT-RoT when all is equal, but it is definitely much better if there is a difference in the number of mobs you can hit with a circle vs. line AE

Based on a brief discussion on reddit, I evaluated one variant of the simpler rotations and it's pretty good and consistent/reliable:

HP IDC TTT / HP IDF TTT

So basically a stupid-simple repeat cycle replacing Chaos Thrust with Fracture every other cycle. No compensation required for DOT clipping unless you have abnormal levels of skill speed.

The only possible downsides are: (a) it uses Impulse Drive more often than many other rotations, requiring more "back time", and (b) it uses slightly more TP than a rotation with 0 Fracture. The fact that it only uses FR once every other cycle mitigates that a bit.

How important is mercy stroke? I do some research and people say it's worthless others say your gimping yourself by not having it.