[dev1008] About Jumping

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

Now for this I have a case in point that proves someone in FF series did jump while in plate armor........Steiner from FF9!

As far as a compromise on jumping with your character but not on chocobo, I say no. I can only see people jumping just for the fact to bunny hop. If you really want to jump, why not just add it in an /emote? As you said, we should keep it as only a FFXIII or Zelda game where it's recognized as a Collision Detection. We should only jump as a passive way to clear the obstacle.

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Touche with Steiner.

I honestly really don't believe in jumping. Doesn't make sense. They're going for realism in character animations. From the start WoW didn't care about realism. Hell with collision engines and practicality, it was about complete fantasy immersion. Actually, I take back my previous comment about not jumping. I honestly don't care either way. If they add it great, if they don't...just as great. It's not a make or break issue with me.

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Originally Posted by Goldfighter

So then when you get to that 1 ft little drop off that you can't get up/down from, you're gonna get on your hands and knees and climb up/down it?

Not sure how that's smarter.

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No, but seeing a dude hoisting himself up a ledge with a triumphant grunt is a lot cooler looking than seeing the same dude hop around like a monkey in heat.

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

Touche with Steiner.

I honestly really don't believe in jumping. Doesn't make sense. They're going for realism in character animations. From the start WoW didn't care about realism. Hell with collision engines and practicality, it was about complete fantasy immersion. Actually, I take back my previous comment about not jumping. I honestly don't care either way. If they add it great, if they don't...just as great. It's not a make or break issue with me.

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I honestly don't care either. I'm just trying to voice my opinion as to which is better and also try to appeal to both crowds. The only thing I don't want to see is everybody smashing jump ALL the time. Like if there is a PvP eventually....It's going to turn into Halo where everyone is jumping around you....

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

I honestly don't care either. I'm just trying to voice my opinion as to which is better and also try to appeal to both crowds. The only thing I don't want to see is everybody smashing jump ALL the time. Like if there is a PvP eventually....It's going to turn into Halo where everyone is jumping around you....

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Honestly, I think that the dev's care as much about that as any of us. It is final fantasy and as such has a certain standard we would all have to adhere to. Jumping ala Halo style...not gonna happen, I'm 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt certain that it's just not gonna happen.

I hope so.

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

(First half put in another thread, should've added to this one lol ^^;)

you ever see anybody jump in plate armor?

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Dragoons and tactics lancers, everyone who wears plate in dissidia, I guess gladiator doesnt get much air but they can certainly do a flip.

Edit: I guess dragoons and lancers mostly had partial plate.


Edit: man it so not going to be like wow or halo if they implement jumping.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Greetings everyone! FFXIV Producer/Director Yoshida has made some comments about "jumping" that we wanted to make sure you saw!

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Concerning the second part about collision detection apart from jumping, I think the idea about feeling bound to the ground (I think the bigger issue here) could be largely remedied by adding an animation when descending ledges like a light fall or a sliding motion giving the appearance of leaving the ground or just something visually different from the normal running animation down or up the grade. It would look less anchored allowing the conversation about actual jumping to be postponed and saving development time for more pressing matters while offering much of the same effect. Just an idea.

Edit: Messed the quote up, but you know what part I'm referring to I suspect.

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Originally Posted by derekx

Concerning the second part about collision detection apart from jumping, I think the idea about feeling bound to the ground (I think the bigger issue here) could be largely remedied by adding an animation when descending ledges like a light fall or a sliding motion giving the appearance of leaving the ground or just something visually different from the normal running animation down or up the grade. It would look less anchored allowing the conversation about actual jumping to be postponed and saving development time for more pressing matters while offering much of the same effect. Just an idea.

Edit: Messed the quote up, but you know what part I'm referring too I suspect.

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Yep, goes along with my idea. BTW, when I saw your name I thought of zoolander, and I had a short guffaw.

Great post.

I just don't understand the out cry against jumping. It isn't that big of a deal. No one wants tons of bunny hoppers, but they can have a system that prevents the abuse of that, a fatigue system would solve that easily enough, as well as slowing character movement if you are low on it.

The MMO industry has standards and this game isn't going to have a big enough Final Fantasy following to keep this game afloat and thriving. They need to appeal to MMO players, not just old school FFers living on past ideals and traditions.

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Originally Posted by Skeeter

I just don't understand the out cry against jumping. It isn't that big of a deal. No one wants tons of bunny hoppers, but they can have a system that prevents the abuse of that, a fatigue system would solve that easily enough, as well as slowing character movement if you are low on it.

The MMO industry has standards and this game isn't going to have a big enough Final Fantasy following to keep this game afloat and thriving. They need to appeal to MMO players, not just old school FFers living on past ideals and traditions.

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I really feel you there Skeeter, but on the other hand you have to understand that alot of the fanbase that are subscribing to this MMO are relying upon the past ideals and traditions. The main issue I see the Dev Team having is appeasing both the MMO fan, and the FF fan.

To be completely honest. I do not see how you think being able to jump makes an MMO thrive and seem more important than completing missions and all in all enjoying the time you use to level up classes and performing activities with friends.

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

I really feel you there Skeeter, but on the other hand you have to understand that alot of the fanbase that are subscribing to this MMO are relying upon the past ideals and traditions. The main issue I see the Dev Team having is appeasing both the MMO fan, and the FF fan.

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But of all the things to pick your battles on... jumping? That's the most important thread of the English-speaking boards?

You'd think this game was near perfection if this is all that has people riled up.

I don't think it's that important, I really don't. But...there are people, a large amount of people, that consider it to be a huge issue, so it's worth talking about. this isn't the "top issues for everybody" forum, it's the "general discussion" forum. Not trying to start a flame/troll war, I'm just stating the facts. If you really don't feel it's worth considering please, feel free to skip the thread. I personally am neutral on the issue, but I want to make my opinion on it known, knowing that I've done my best to help advance the game.

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Originally Posted by AmyRae

You'd think this game was near perfection if this is all that has people riled up.

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seriously lol a lot of uptight jackasses in FF MMO games.

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Originally Posted by BelgianRofl

We do NOT want jump. It will degrade the character and atmosphere of the game.

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+1 Million and agreed!

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Originally Posted by AmyRae

But of all the things to pick your battles on... jumping? That's the most important thread of the English-speaking boards?

You'd think this game was near perfection if this is all that has people riled up.

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Agreed. I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other about jumping, but in the end my impression is that there are more pressing things the development team needs to be concerned with at the moment. That's not to say this isn't important especially if it matters to you, just that maybe it's not the time to be worked up over this particular issue. Even if it isn't addressed now, there's always time to implement this feature in the future.

15,000 views on this one topic alone.....Whew.

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Originally Posted by trinta

You, sir, need to research proper usage of semicolons. It is a complex list separator or a period replacement; it is not a continuing-previous-clause indicator.

LittleLaLa's punctuation did, in fact, mean "You cant jump in real life".

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Hate to hit you with the grammar book but here we go:

1. Between items in a series or listing containing internal punctuation, especially parenthetic commas, where the semicolons function as serial commas.

2. Between closely related independent clauses not conjoined with a coordinating conjunction.

3. Between independent clauses and semi clauses linked with a transitional phrase or a conjunctive adverb

This is horribly OT but.. anyway, Skyrant are you collecting horrible grammar posts in your signature section? Lol

The forums are a bit hard to follow right now, so I think I'll use this thread as a breaking in point. D:

I haven't read pretty much any of this thread, it's just far too long to do that, so if I cover old information please forgive me!

Jumping is definitely a strange topic and it amazes me how much people seem to want it implemented. As of yet I haven't seen any compelling arguments supporting it. At most it seems to span the territory of "mmo standard" and "solution to knee high walls," the last of which isn't a problem born out of a lack of jumping by any means. Firstly, though jumping is considered an mmo standard these days, XIV isn't really the same as a lot of the mainstream mmos out there as far as gameplay and style of play goes. XIV, like XI, doesn't have a strong emphasis on quick, rapid movements and the terrain of the game is a bit more sculpted, for lack of a better word. Gameplay wise there's little to nothing to really gain from implementing a jump feature. At most it creates a limited degree of vertical movement which, personally, I don't believe constitutes freedom and seems more like a gimmick. Other games benefit from jumping because they were designed with it in mind. XIV isn't that kind of game. There's no real reason to jump, no high cliffs to fall from, no fences to vault (there are fences but none worth jumping D: ), and in general the game has little use for it. Sure, you could jump to scale those nasty knee-high barriers, but honestly it'd be far easier to allow scaling of it while running. There are already small cliffs that you can climb that are far higher than some of the impassable ones. It's just a matter of improving the invisible barriers and terrain hang ups. Also, XIV isn't as open as some other mmos out there, the zones are well defined and high cliffs surround the navigable areas. Ultimately it'd be like jumping in a closed box. Sure you can move up and down a little but it's not like it does anything but tire you out.

Also, I see the word "realism" tossed around a lot and I have to say that's a bit of a misnomer. It's not really about realism but about aesthetics and flow. If you consider how XIV, as well as XI, feel when played, how they handle, it's readily apparent they have a much more weighted and dense feel to them. This is far from a bad thing and is actually one of the things I like about the two games. Keeping that in mind though, imagine for a moment how jumping would look, how it would feel in the game. Taking into account your character's run speed, the way they move when taking corners or changing direction, imagine them jumping in as consistent a style as you can. It's not about the realism of the jump but about how it meshes with already existing animations and movement. I don't know about you all but when I think of it I, at most, see a small bound, a hop. Far from anything you'd see in other games and almost more of an emote than an actual gameplay function.

I could probably go on but I won't as this is getting a bit long winded already. The takeaway message though is that jumping is a shortsighted "solution" to problems best remedied by tweaking other aspects of the game. It also would serve only as, essentially, an emote if they wanted to keep the animation consistent with the aesthetics of the game. It wouldn't have any gameplay purpose beyond anything scripted, like a specific "jump" point in game that automatically makes the action for you. I mean, ultimately, I think a jump emote would be fine, something just to look fanciful, but a lot of people are arguing this from a gameplay standpoint, an argument which this feature has no ground to stand on.

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Originally Posted by Veronica

This is horribly OT but.. anyway, Skyrant are you collecting horrible grammar posts in your signature section? Lol

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First 1 is a famous post from XI's early days.

I am very appose to the idea of jumping for the most part. The only FF I have seen it work in is FFXIII. If FFXIV were to incorporate something along those lines I would be fine with it. Short of that free-jump would be terrible. It's something this game doesn't need. I also feel that even if that were a possibility, that thier are many other things that should come far before a jump feature. Such as changing the current bland animation style of abilities, fixing the armoury system and working out the kinks in our class system. That is my personal opinion.

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Originally Posted by Turtle

I am very appose to the idea of jumping for the most part. The only FF I have seen it work in is FFXIII. If FFXIV were to incorporate something along those lines I would be fine with it. Short of that free-jump would be terrible. It's something this game doesn't need. I also feel that even if that were a possibility, that thier are many other things that should come far before a jump feature. Such as changing the current bland animation style of abilities, fixing the armoury system and working out the kinks in our class system. That is my personal opinion.

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Dear everyone whom may read,
Mr. T(aka: TURTLE) makes a very valid point here. So open your eyes and ears to the wonderful words that Mr. T has to offer. He is Mr. T, The Boss.
Love yours truly,
Rokien

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Dear everyone whom may read,
Mr. T(aka: TURTLE) makes a very valid point here. So open your eyes and ears to the wonderful words that Mr. T has to offer. He is Mr. T, The Boss.
Love yours truly,
Rokien

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What? He just said free jump would be terrible without even saying why.

SE stop being a pu¤¤y about new features and take some god damn artistic authorship of your work!

You said jump now JUMP!

Never needed the ability to jump in FFXI (excluding Drgs in battle), so do not need it in FFXIV. Would kill the feel of exploration and make guildleve unnecessary short in the time they take to complete. FFXIII for me worked simply because it added something different to the scenery and to the fact you were going in the same direction most of the time (so more reason to hit a button to interact with the scenery).

Although saying that when you could swim short distances in FFX I was briefly disappointed there was no option to swim in FFXI. It'll pass.

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Originally Posted by Focant

The forums are a bit hard to follow right now, so I think I'll use this thread as a breaking in point. D:

I haven't read pretty much any of this thread, it's just far too long to do that, so if I cover old information please forgive me!

Jumping is definitely a strange topic and it amazes me how much people seem to want it implemented. As of yet I haven't seen any compelling arguments supporting it. At most it seems to span the territory of "mmo standard" and "solution to knee high walls," the last of which isn't a problem born out of a lack of jumping by any means. Firstly, though jumping is considered an mmo standard these days, XIV isn't really the same as a lot of the mainstream mmos out there as far as gameplay and style of play goes. XIV, like XI, doesn't have a strong emphasis on quick, rapid movements and the terrain of the game is a bit more sculpted, for lack of a better word. Gameplay wise there's little to nothing to really gain from implementing a jump feature. At most it creates a limited degree of vertical movement which, personally, I don't believe constitutes freedom and seems more like a gimmick. Other games benefit from jumping because they were designed with it in mind. XIV isn't that kind of game. There's no real reason to jump, no high cliffs to fall from, no fences to vault (there are fences but none worth jumping D: ), and in general the game has little use for it. Sure, you could jump to scale those nasty knee-high barriers, but honestly it'd be far easier to allow scaling of it while running. There are already small cliffs that you can climb that are far higher than some of the impassable ones. It's just a matter of improving the invisible barriers and terrain hang ups. Also, XIV isn't as open as some other mmos out there, the zones are well defined and high cliffs surround the navigable areas. Ultimately it'd be like jumping in a closed box. Sure you can move up and down a little but it's not like it does anything but tire you out.

Also, I see the word "realism" tossed around a lot and I have to say that's a bit of a misnomer. It's not really about realism but about aesthetics and flow. If you consider how XIV, as well as XI, feel when played, how they handle, it's readily apparent they have a much more weighted and dense feel to them. This is far from a bad thing and is actually one of the things I like about the two games. Keeping that in mind though, imagine for a moment how jumping would look, how it would feel in the game. Taking into account your character's run speed, the way they move when taking corners or changing direction, imagine them jumping in as consistent a style as you can. It's not about the realism of the jump but about how it meshes with already existing animations and movement. I don't know about you all but when I think of it I, at most, see a small bound, a hop. Far from anything you'd see in other games and almost more of an emote than an actual gameplay function.

I could probably go on but I won't as this is getting a bit long winded already. The takeaway message though is that jumping is a shortsighted "solution" to problems best remedied by tweaking other aspects of the game. It also would serve only as, essentially, an emote if they wanted to keep the animation consistent with the aesthetics of the game. It wouldn't have any gameplay purpose beyond anything scripted, like a specific "jump" point in game that automatically makes the action for you. I mean, ultimately, I think a jump emote would be fine, something just to look fanciful, but a lot of people are arguing this from a gameplay standpoint, an argument which this feature has no ground to stand on.

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You're not really late to the party as nobody has yet to offer a particularly compelling reason as to why jumping should be included that can't be solved by fixing another issue(mainly collision and better area design). Yoshi has even said as much that he would appreciate it if players could separate jumping from collision earlier in the thread.

I'm not saying a compelling argument CAN'T be given. I'm just saying that in nearly 60 pages not one has been presented other than the aforementioned "it's in other MMOs!" and "wah I wants teh jump wah!(paraphrasing). It's pretty insulting that people on the jump side of the fence automatically assumes that anyone who isn't for it is a stubborn dinosaur, when all that really needs to be presented is a situation that can't be helped without including a jump as per their vision.

Anyway, excellent post.

Phanraven would not like having to jump when the user presses a key.

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Originally Posted by Veronica

This is horribly OT but.. anyway, Skyrant are you collecting horrible grammar posts in your signature section? Lol

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

First 1 is a famous post from XI's early days.

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What Jennestia said (LINKY).

As a Lalafell, I am not amused by the thought of jumping to conclusions; beeing afraid of heights and all. You however should not be too worried, you always land on your paws anyways.

PS: FB request sent :D

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You're not really late to the party as nobody has yet to offer a particularly compelling reason as to why jumping should be included that can't be solved by fixing another issue(mainly collision and better area design)

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As many as of the counter arguments, if not more are simple responses with no backing, reread the whole thread. There have been plenty of examples given. It opens up a whole new dimension of game design opportunities, whether it be battle tactics or future dungeon and terrain design. I always hate using WoW as an example but there are plenty of fights in that game where if you mistime a jump to dodge an ability you are going to die. Or if you misjudge moving from plat forms or small ledges. The counter argument against this was "GIMMICKS!!". Well that is all PvE encounters are, but I guess we could just stand on the side of the dragon and tank+spank and be funneled through our maze like zones, how exciting.

Others have suggested an auto or menu jump when you encounter the areas where it would be useful but that would be so much more time and coding to go through every single zone and put them in.

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I really feel you there Skeeter, but on the other hand you have to understand that alot of the fanbase that are subscribing to this MMO are relying upon the past ideals and traditions. The main issue I see the Dev Team having is appeasing both the MMO fan, and the FF fan.

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And they would quit because you can jump? That is just as childish as people who sit and bunny hop like idiots. A fatigue system where you can't abuse jumping, I don't see why any old school FFer would have a problem with. Did they refuse to play FFXI because you can see the mobs and battles weren't random encounters?

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But of all the things to pick your battles on... jumping? That's the most important thread of the English-speaking boards?

You'd think this game was near perfection if this is all that has people riled up.

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Oh it definitely isn't the most pressing problem. This argument just goes way back to the early days of FFXI and people are just sensitive to it. When one side pushes hard, the other pushes back just as hard and threads like this happen. It truly boggles my mind a big company like SE with all the experience they have with FFXI released a game in this shape. It is like they ignored everything that ever happened in the MMO world including their own lol. :(:mad:

I think I am done with this topic, we're just beating dead horses and repeating things at this point.

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Originally Posted by Krisan

What I think most everyone would settle happily for, is a jump feature similar to that of FFXIII.. Where your character automatically scales obstacles in his or her path. That said, I would not mind a button dedicated solely to jumping either, and "obnoxious" or not to some people.. the practical application of scaling uneven terrain far outweighs the annoyance it may bring to others.

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I agree, it should be done like this if they are going to implement it

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Originally Posted by Phanraven

Phanraven would not like having to jump when the user presses a key.

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same here, I would like however a jump like system as seen in FFXIII. It also seem that that is a way easier and less gamebreaking way to add jumping, IF its going to be added.

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Originally Posted by Skyrant_Kangaroomouse

What Jennestia said (LINKY).

As a Lalafell, I am not amused by the thought of jumping to conclusions; beeing afraid of heights and all. You however should not be too worried, you always land on your paws anyways.

PS: FB request sent :D

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wow.. lmao at that thread in your link! that is really amazing. bookmarked!

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Originally Posted by Krisan

What I think most everyone would settle happily for, is a jump feature similar to that of FFXIII. Where your character automatically scales obstacles in his or her path.

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That would be nice to have.
And would like to automatically be climbing small hills.
I prefere not having to press a "jump" to get upp.
If people like a "jump" emote I don't care.

I really don't understand the whole hubdub about adding the jump feature. As a long time FFXI player I didn't miss all that much. And most jumping in other games is just something to do when ADD kids can't stand still for 2 seconds.

In this respect I do not miss it.

However, I would like to see some more exotic locales get added in XIV. Especially where elevation is involved. Final Fantasy has always been known for incredible character animations and design. I would like to see that carried forward in jumping.

Such as in XIII, jumping was restricted to very specific locations and was highlighted by little circular nodes of light to indicate you could jump there. While I was not a fan of these circular nodes standing out so much in the environment. I do recognize it was necessary so ppl could see they were there. But maybe they could fade into being visible when your approach them. Not being able to see them from clear across the map. This should help with Level of detail issues as well. There is really no need for incessant jumping, because it interrupts the continuity of the game. When telling a story you don't say the main hero jumps continuously to get over a rock?! No you say he somersaulted or sprinted around said rock. It's more dramatic and more interesting to watch.

Also in XIII there were plenty of places to explore, it wasn't all flat, you could jump to higher or lower elevations to do more exploring. Would be awesome to see this in an MMO. And the jumps could be animated so they are per race so they are unique.

I'd like to see it take so far as you could even climb in some locales. Such as if you approach cliff you could climb up or down it if it was allowed!

I like the Chocobo jumping idea too. I'm all for Chocobo's allowing you to travel across certain terrains types. Such as water, Mountains, flying, etc... It could make some areas inaccessible to some lower level players because they are not high enough to rent a chocobo, or not experienced to ride said chocobo.

But when you talk about such advanced elements and the fact that they did not develop the current environments with this in mind. The jumping feature may not be included till an expansion. Which would make since.

But I tell you what, if my Miq'ote can somersault like what is seen they can do in the Ul'dah intro movies that would be awesome!

Guys!

Grappling hooks.

Discuss.

I don't care if they add jump or not, but my question is... Why are people so bothered about jumping?? to me the game doesn't need jump, if it did they would of made it, in this case it just sounds like everyone is trying to push SE into it, also instead of doing this... "oh there's a fence, hmmm... well ill just keep running towards it" why not try "oh there's a fence, so ill head off this way to go around it" the only problem in the game is getting caught on little rocks and things which they can just fix without really changing things, but bringing in a new feature that could take a long time to get it all balanced. FFXI worked great... without a jump...

also people say things about jumping over spells or places with moving objects and you got to time the jump right... but is there a place in FFXIV where there are moving platforms where people get pushed off on cos they don't have a jump... or will that mean FFXIV would have to design places like that, taking up a load of time and also going for something they didn't want to follow in other MMOs

but that's just my opinion

I got it! You don't want to be tied to the ground, you say? Then let's bring "Flying" into this world! Let's bring out a pet, such as Valefor from FFX, that we can summon(Like NPC Companion's of FFXI or later on the Chocobo Whistle) to ride and fly around the maps. Doesn't that seem much more enjoyable than being able to jump up a rock in order to leave the ground!? You know what......I like this idea more than yours.

I would like Jumping, swimming and climbing... If not jumping allow us to climb the little ledges that have those annoying invisible walls, or the ones that are just waist high and stops you from getting to the mob just beyond the little ledge.