They Should Add An Official Damage Meter With One Condition

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Originally Posted by SwingLifeAway

Maybe you should stop trying to villainize people who disagree with you and actually read what they are saying, because from pretty much every post I have seen from you, you are failing entirely to do that.

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Aren't you the same guy going around threads calling people toxic casuals?

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

Aren't you the same guy going around threads calling people toxic casuals?

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No, I hardly know the guy

EDIT: To give a more serious answer, yes I call people toxic casuals, but I'm not trying to apply behavior that they have not already exhibited

Trying to infer that I am using parsers to be toxic in game, is a fabrication. People expressing toxic views on the forums, and being called toxic for it, is not a fabrication.

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Originally Posted by Elesh

If a petty thief, a shoplifter, gets run over by a car... is he a victim?

I'd say yes. You can be a criminal ANd a victim. The people have broken a fairly minor rule with very minimal harm to others. So yes, the punishment from SE is justified. But the targeted harassment of the community was not justified. And thus I'd say yes, they qualify both as rulebreaker and victim. And while their punishment should hold... as I said earlier in this thread, the people who orchestrated the harassment campaign for no reason? They should be banned too. Because they're far worse for the community and harassment is DEFINITELY also against the ToS. Including using 'reporting' as a form of harassment.

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If the scriminal is fleeing the crime and gets run over, they’re not a victim. That’s just karma.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

If the scriminal is fleeing the crime and gets run over, they’re not a victim. That’s just karma.

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Do you have "Empath" in your Twitter bio? Just curious.

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

You really think there won't be any toxicity over "your damage sucks"?

I think you might be a little delusional. I'm willing to bet that most people use/want damage meters not to see their own dps improve and learn from the data, but rather to see if they're better than the other guy.

Gamers have big egos. A lot of us just want to be the best. We want to blow things up and see big numbers. And if my number is bigger than your number then I win.

And I'm willing to bet that that's the primary reason people want damage meters. But they won't admit it of course.

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You’d be wrong on that one. Competition isn’t a bad thing though, so who cares. The information is already available in the combat log. The parser just compiles it.

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Originally Posted by SwingLifeAway

Do you have "Empath" in your Twitter bio? Just curious.

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Twitter is a dumpster fire that I take no part in, lol.

Don't know why I've never thought of this, but yes, it's a great idea. I just want a way for me and my friends to compete with eachother. All of these Damage Meter deniers are scared about absolutely nothing.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

Competition isn’t a bad thing though, so who cares.

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Until it becomes "you can't join our group unless you can do "X" damage. Then it becomes gatekeeping.

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

Until it becomes "you can't join our group unless you can do "X" damage. Then it becomes gatekeeping.

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Walk me through the logistics of that vs what is currently possible and happening. Do you really think someone is gonna write the essay required to specify target dps thresholds for each job which doesnt even really work with many jobs having group buffs that rely on their allies to also contribute correctly and differs for every fight. Or do you think people would just set and ilvl gate, set the PF to duty complete and then just kick based on who isnt up to expectations. That's how it works right now and it's far easier to do as PF host.

Gatekeeping is already happening in PF and that's good. Forcing people together with mismatched expectations only breeds frustrations afterall. And as always, you can just host your own PF if you dont like the duty complete requirement or the specified ilvl.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Do you really think someone is gonna write the essay required to specify target dps thresholds for each job

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Yes! And not just a little bit, it will be with an excessive amount of detail explaining why the treshold is made that way. They will probably even mention optimal values on a per dungeon basis because they know the total HP existing in those, and all sorts of phases.

And they will even be rewarded for doing that by getting constant references towards their guide, and the ads on the site will ensure that it remains up.

With luck it will only go as far as icy-veins in showing builds and recommendations, but i suspect that some groups will make large excel sheets with statistics and parse information from that. And to give you an idea: Heroes of the storm while it was already dead after the HGC death, still had people refer to hotslogs for information about optimal values. And there people only just complained if you took a healer that on average has 10% less healing (yet in that game individual skill does a lot). Icy veins in that with their advise was often even that bad, that you should be discouraged from using it at lower ranks (they demanded low level players to use things they simply cannot manage).

Thats why DPS must be prevented to be measured. Its not going to be helpful, and only just cause hinder. A good player isnt measured by average performance in regards to DPS, its in performance in regards to completion speed. Even if you consistently do 20% less damage, but your team on average ends up 10% faster, you are doing a very good job.

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

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Icy-veins created some largely singular, one-size-fits-all guides per HotS character (which, by the way, they're pretty open about) --which is really just to say, they didn't go though the trouble of making multiple separate guides per character-- and thus all measurement is bad?

I think you've skipped a step or three in that reasoning there.



Yes, people can be overly fixated on minute advantages. You know they do when they don't information, though? They fixate on presumed advantages, believing them to be still more sizable and relevant than they are to an even greater gap from what is reasonable.

Remember Stormblood before fflogs switched from raw DPS to rDPS as their primary metric (you'd have to go to xivhero and link the particular fflog for it to calculate the rDPS)?

People would swear up and down that NIN/DRG/MCH/BRD and SMN/DRG/MCH/BRD were by far and away the best comps because of their "synergy" and that anyone trying to play Monk, Samurai, Black Mage, or Red Mage, even in their optimal teams, were "kinda griefing, bruh." Turned out the jobs' rDPS, though, was actually incredibly balanced by late Stormblood; the presumed "advantages" that were pushing people towards particular metas, fell between inexistent and irrelevant. And that would have been common knowledge if people actually looked into the numbers instead of assuming that the more "selfish" jobs couldn't possibly make up for their rDPS debt with their raw numbers.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

Not only looking, but understanding. You're making the assumption that numbers like this will be properly understood and utilized by people.

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It was a difference of having a number (the numeric value of buffs applied minus buffs received) or not. That was it. One chart included the number/factor that the other lacked.

Seeing jobs' rDPS might still underplay the value of "selfish" DPS (as those who do half the work of giving the buffers their rDPS contribution by maximally exploiting those buffs), but it's no rocket-science to go from looking at one chart without those numbers and still thinking "SAM might be doing stupid high damage but it's all fake and they actually underperform Bard" to looking at the other and seeing that, no, even when given no credit for exploiting those buffs, SAM is still doing just fine for the moment. You can take A and B (the ability to exploit buffs and the ability to, at net value, give them) and very easily eyeball job balance from between the two graphic organizers given to you. Those chart's conclusion, at the time: All jobs were actually way more closely competitive than they were rumored to be.

Granted, it still took almost another year just for people to stop treating a lack of raid buffs as an incurable disease just because those numbers be scary while ill-informed maxims are apparently not?

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

Yes! And not just a little bit, it will be with an excessive amount of detail explaining why the treshold is made that way. They will probably even mention optimal values on a per dungeon basis because they know the total HP existing in those, and all sorts of phases.

And they will even be rewarded for doing that by getting constant references towards their guide, and the ads on the site will ensure that it remains up.

With luck it will only go as far as icy-veins in showing builds and recommendations, but i suspect that some groups will make large excel sheets with statistics and parse information from that. And to give you an idea: Heroes of the storm while it was already dead after the HGC death, still had people refer to hotslogs for information about optimal values. And there people only just complained if you took a healer that on average has 10% less healing (yet in that game individual skill does a lot). Icy veins in that with their advise was often even that bad, that you should be discouraged from using it at lower ranks (they demanded low level players to use things they simply cannot manage).

Thats why DPS must be prevented to be measured. Its not going to be helpful, and only just cause hinder. A good player isnt measured by average performance in regards to DPS, its in performance in regards to completion speed. Even if you consistently do 20% less damage, but your team on average ends up 10% faster, you are doing a very good job.

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Well then, get going on writing those essays. Meanwhile normal people will just set an ilvl, set duty complete status, kick people grossly underperforming and be done with it. I have to warn you though that by doing that kind of PF essay writing "skip soar or disband" is going to look like a mild blunder compared to your essay writing.

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

Until it becomes "you can't join our group unless you can do "X" damage. Then it becomes gatekeeping.

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Not quite convinced. That's like saying gatekeeping a low performing student from advancing their study to next degree is bad because they could not meet the minimum passing average grade. Allowing them to just advance when they can barely do well on lower degree will only frustrate both the student and their teacher.

The same is also true for statics recruitment and in-game content that presents you a minimum passing grade that is DPS check, which mostly only matter in high ends. One can be a deadweight in normal to lower end content and they'll still get their clear with the help of 3 to 7 other players thanks to how those encounters are designed to begin with---hardly anybody cares in there.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Icy-veins created some largely singular, one-size-fits-all guides per HotS character (which, by the way, they're pretty open about) --which is really just to say, they didn't go though the trouble of making multiple separate guides per character-- and thus all measurement is bad?

I think you've skipped a step or three in that reasoning there.



Yes, people can be overly fixated on minute advantages. You know they do when they don't information, though? They fixate on presumed advantages, believing them to be still more sizable and relevant than they are to an even greater gap from what is reasonable.

Remember Stormblood before fflogs switched from raw DPS to rDPS as their primary metric (you'd have to go to xivhero and link the particular fflog for it to calculate the rDPS)?

People would swear up and down that NIN/DRG/MCH/BRD and SMN/DRG/MCH/BRD were by far and away the best comps because of their "synergy" and that anyone trying to play Monk, Samurai, Black Mage, or Red Mage, even in their optimal teams, were "kinda griefing, bruh." Turned out the jobs' rDPS, though, was actually incredibly balanced by late Stormblood; the presumed "advantages" that pushing people towards particular metas, feel between inexistent and irrelevant. And that would have been common knowledge if people actually looked into the numbers instead of assuming that the more "selfish" jobs couldn't possibly make up for rDPS debt with their raw numbers.

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Not only looking, but understanding. You're making the assumption that numbers like this will be properly understood and utilized by people. In my experience that hasn't been the case. Even the people who ENJOY parsing which SHOULD have a high amount of people that understand what they're looking at (relative to the full community) don't have any understanding of what numbers are and what they mean and the actual differences between them (and the complexities of different systems).

They don't understand the swing that can be caused by crit chance which differs by job since some jobs have autocrits now. They probably don't understand the 5% stat bonus in parties and how that effects things.

You're ultimately just "arming" people who don't understand what statistics/numbers mean with information that they can use incorrectly. For an example of that, look at the last 2 years.


rDPS has been a great addition to show just how balanced things are for sure, but that doesn't mean that people will understand it.

Personally, I would love for it to be added because I LOVE trying to improve my gameplay and I'm a console pleb so I have no way of truly measuring what I'm doing. But, I completely understand why it will never be added and I agree with the reasoning. Too many people would abuse it.

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Originally Posted by Elesh

If a petty thief, a shoplifter, gets run over by a car... is he a victim?

I'd say yes. You can be a criminal ANd a victim. The people have broken a fairly minor rule with very minimal harm to others. So yes, the punishment from SE is justified. But the targeted harassment of the community was not justified. And thus I'd say yes, they qualify both as rulebreaker and victim. And while their punishment should hold... as I said earlier in this thread, the people who orchestrated the harassment campaign for no reason? They should be banned too. Because they're far worse for the community and harassment is DEFINITELY also against the ToS. Including using 'reporting' as a form of harassment.

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If you follow the thread of cause/effect, everyone can be a victim and everyone has someone who is ultimately the cause of their victimhood.

Why is that person stealing? Is it because they were born into a poor family? Why was that family poor? Systemic economic issues?

Same line of thought can be done with parsers:

Why is someone parsing? Because the game doesn't give enough information about how well you're playing? Why doesn't it give that information? Because people have been known to abuse it in the past? Why have they abused it in the past? Because people play multiplayer games with no intention of getting better and ultimately leech off the other people they're playing with? Why do they have no intention of being better? Because the game doesn't do a good job at fostering improved gameplay?


The difference is that there are clear signs "If you do X, then Y will happen to you." with the ToS. Someone aware of that who makes a decision to still do it, in my eyes, is no longer a victim of anything except their own poor decision making.

Gotta love the echo chambering in this one.

The mask fell off pretty quick on this one. I guess it just goes to show it was never about having tools or self-improvement. It was always about gatekeeping PF/DF and beating other players over the head with what you think are low DPS numbers.
I thought the echo chamber said the casuals were the toxic ones in this game?

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

The mask fell off pretty quick on this one. I guess it just goes to show it was never about having tools or self-improvement. It was always about gatekeeping PF/DF and beating other players over the head with what you think are low DPS numbers.
I thought the echo chamber said the casuals were the toxic ones in this game?

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Except beating other players over the head with dps numbers is against harassment ToS, gatekeeping PF is already being done and a good thing and I havent really seen much about DF mentioned in here because that's pretty irrelevant with the lack of enrage timers and the general ease DF duties have. You might ask what's the point of asking for an official parser at that point and I agree, the community already has a better solution and an official version would lack in quality compared to the years of development that went into ACT, FFlogs and xivanalysis.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

gatekeeping PF is a good thing

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It can't be understated both how wrong this is and how much the developers disagree with this at a fundemental level based on past interviews and answers.
Before you start typing out some poor comparison to item level or duty completion, no those are not the same as gating based on a 3rd party tool or needing to do x damage or kick.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

It can't be understated both how wrong this is and how much the developers disagree with this at a fundemental level based on past interviews and answers.
Before you start typing out some poor comparison to item level or duty completion, no those are not the same as gating based on a 3rd party tool or needing to do x damage or kick.

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Except on some levels you already have "gatekeeping" implemented, i.e ilevels, there is always going to be gatekeeping involved at a minimum. And sorry, but for savage content, you do need a minimum of gatekeeping. How are they not the same lol, at the very least, your ilevel is an indicator of you having the least bit of competency to complete the content. If they don't want the game to become a "dps or kick", then don't design the game that way.

I invite you to go to any pf p3s prog party, have fun getting stuck at adds, if they bother making it past darkened fire. P3S has tight dps checks, which means, if you are not passing you are wiping the party. :)

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

It can't be understated both how wrong this is and how much the developers disagree with this at a fundemental level based on past interviews and answers.
Before you start typing out some poor comparison to item level or duty completion, no those are not the same as gating based on a 3rd party tool or needing to do x damage or kick.

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On a fundamental level there exist DPS checks in savage and extreme fights, if your party cant clear them then dps is lacking. They design the game in a way that everyone has to contribute to that dps check. So the devs are very intentionally gatekeeping low dps people out of clearing. If one person lags behind everyone else and is preventing 7 other people from clearing than they should leave and work to improve their own skill.
I'm bringing up ilvl and duty completetion because they are by far the more useful metrics for PF. Nobody cares if you can hit x amount of dps on a target dummy, but when extreme and savage are relevant ilvl and duty complete gates ensure that you have atleast some semblance of an understanding, atleast enough to not hold up 7 other people permanently. This nightmare scenario yoship described in that one infamous lifeletter is an unrealistic one because ilvl and duty complete already do a way better job for way less effort.

Setting clear expectations is a healthy thing. If you pair up people who are looking for fast clears with people who are looking to prog the first mechanic, neither is going to be happy. This will only lead to frustration.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

It can't be understated both how wrong this is and how much the developers disagree with this at a fundemental level based on past interviews and answers.
Before you start typing out some poor comparison to item level or duty completion, no those are not the same as gating based on a 3rd party tool or needing to do x damage or kick.

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If the developers disagreed with gatekeeping by using non-SE implemented methods found within the game, the developers should have just made all content available only through DF with no PF option. They should have never created PF as an option at all.

As long as PF is in the game, people will use gatekeeping beyond the minimal the game provides. It has nothing to do with being mean or cruel. It has to do with time.

Time is the one currency we cannot get paid back. So, if I create a PF and have to invest a non-refundable currency, I am going to mitigate risk of the loss of that currency spent in order to do this event.

If the game only gives a non-satisfactory amount of risk mitigation tools, I am going to seek or create my own tools or processes that will help me reduce risk. That might be requiring me to look at your historical logs, asking for several references you know that know you did the fight, Materia check, gear check, etc.

Not all PFs are the same on top of that. Two PFs for the same savage fight could be different. One could be for “first time clears.” The other could be for “farming only.” Both of those PFs will have different expectations and gatekeeping methods. You can guarantee that the “farming” PF will be looking at logs. They are not going to take the word of someone who claims that they are on “farm.”

All because time is the one currency SE development cannot program into your life. Time is a third-party currency that drives the use of the third-party tools and methodology.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

Aren't you the same guy going around threads calling people toxic casuals?

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That would be me.

Because "knowledge is bad and we shouldn't have it. People might be mean! Anyway here's why people who gather knowledge should be banned" is a ludicrous set of positions, and this allergy to learning is the worst part of FFXIV's community.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

It can't be understated both how wrong this is and how much the developers disagree with this at a fundemental level based on past interviews and answers.
Before you start typing out some poor comparison to item level or duty completion, no those are not the same as gating based on a 3rd party tool or needing to do x damage or kick.

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Parties and especially statics already do this. Will state again because this seems to need mentioning once more. This is high level optional content. You do not require number aggregators to deduce that one or more party members is underperforming in hmm, let us say a farm party.

Huh, we should be skipping phase X. Hmm, by this amount of elapsed time we should be at X percent HP. Have not seen dance partner, where is it? No chain strat has been on the boss, why? Red Mage is not making contact with boss so they are obviously not doing melee. Not seeing much Glare from our White Mage probably will have to disband because we are not having this conversation in Savage.

Players participating in difficult content will have expectations and believing that damage is not and should never be factor is sillyness. No party lead is going to sit there willingly banging their head against enrage, they are going to leave duty > disband > blacklist. The option for fifteen minutes of Mothercrystal is not present here. This is not mandatory story mode content where that type of behavior is considered acceptable.

The requirements are simple for most group stuffs Savage+
Meld.
Eat food.
Pot.
Do mechanics.
Pass enrage.
Understand how to play your job to reasonable level.

If you find yourself being ejected from many groups for D.) Failing to pass enrage or E.)Barely understanding job fundamentals then it is time to look inward. Banning damage meters and attempting to force party leaders to stop kicking is not going to change anything. They will kick for which ever reason they decide. Tis their party their rules. Everyone who fails to comprehend this is free to form static or put up on PF. No one is stopping you!

You do not however get to walk into my house and demand I allow you to stay. That is fricken ridiculous. It is not "gatekeeping" if I forcefully eject your booty and no I do not need to give detailed reasons why. You join my static or PF you follow the rules or yeet boy.

Some people seem to believe they have an inherent right to other peoples time, which is a mortifying level of entitlement.

When content has strict requirements, allowing people in who cannot meet those requirements is just a pointless exercise in frustration that usually leads to unnecessary toxicity.

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Originally Posted by Klytania

It's not hard to figure out if your damage is lower than expected you probably aren't hitting enough buttons or preparing combos properly. Not sure what tutorial you would need for that. The combat in this game isn't hard to figure out.

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Ok, so if it is so easy to figure out then why do we need the damage meters? People should be able to read their tool tops and figure out how to use their skills.

alot of these guys dont know they are not up to par, they usually have a friend or a random come in max gear and do the dps of two of them. And they do not even know it

ignorance is bliss =p

Good lord, this is still going on?

*checks posts*

And people are still being hostile to each other. Great. Wonderful!

To the pro-parsers: Perhaps start acting civil and stop this petty bickering. Do not resort to snide remarks about "toxic casuals" or "people not up to par" as it completely undermines your claims about how "parsing" would help XIV. (Legal parsing, not FFlogs.)

To the anti-parsers: Stop the bickering. Start being civil to each other and perhaps turn this from a pointless moogle-waving contest into an actual constructive conversation about the pros and cons. Maybe people will find common ground, or better yet, understand why you take different stances!

To all: Remember that there's a LOT of variables in "doing good parses". Such as hardware, latency, player age & reaction times. Not everyone is on a computer with 3080Tis and 20ms ping (at its highest) while being hocked up on Adderall 24/7. Sometimes people just want to lay back on the sofa and decompress after work. Sometimes they may not want to put in 100%, yet still clear fights. Stop trying to turn XIV into a tryhards paradise. It's not built for that.

If you're clearing fights, you have no reason to complain. The only times max-DPS matters is Savage / Ultimates (at current content) and not everyone does that. But that doesn't mean their opinions are invalid.

Hell, people have been parsing in sastasha at level 18. When you physically cannot do "max-DPS". That doesn't stop the ne'er-do-wells. There's plenty of evidence of parsing being used to be toxic people all over the internet. Go have a look. The reasons people have for refusing a parser being in-the-game is warranted.

If the Parser was to ever actually be considered, the community needs to prove it can be trustworthy with it. As it currently stands, it doesn't look like it could be.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

Parties and especially statics already do this. Will state again because this seems to need mentioning once more. This is high level optional content. You do not require number aggregators to deduce that one or more party members is underperforming in hmm, let us say a farm party.

Huh, we should be skipping phase X. Hmm, by this amount of elapsed time we should be at X percent HP. Have not seen dance partner, where is it? No chain strat has been on the boss, why? Red Mage is not making contact with boss so they are obviously not doing melee. Not seeing much Glare from our White Mage probably will have to disband because we are not having this conversation in Savage.

Players participating in difficult content will have expectations and believing that damage is not and should never be factor is sillyness. No party lead is going to sit there willingly banging their head against enrage, they are going to leave duty > disband > blacklist. The option for fifteen minutes of Mothercrystal is not present here. This is not mandatory story mode content where that type of behavior is considered acceptable.

The requirements are simple for most group stuffs Savage+
Meld.
Eat food.
Pot.
Do mechanics.
Pass enrage.
Understand how to play your job to reasonable level.

If you find yourself being ejected from many groups for D.) Failing to pass enrage or E.)Barely understanding job fundamentals then it is time to look inward. Banning damage meters and attempting to force party leaders to stop kicking is not going to change anything. They will kick for which ever reason they decide. Tis their party their rules. Everyone who fails to comprehend this is free to form static or put up on PF. No one is stopping you!

You do not however get to walk into my house and demand I allow you to stay. That is fricken ridiculous. It is not "gatekeeping" if I forcefully eject your booty and no I do not need to give detailed reasons why. You join my static or PF you follow the rules or yeet boy.

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You don't even have any jobs at 90. This strong stance about how you should be able to gatekeep players out of content is just strange to me given the fact you don't even have these fights unlocked yet.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

You don't even have any jobs at 90. This strong stance about how you should be able to gatekeep players out of content is just strange to me given the fact you don't even have these fights unlocked yet.

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Is gatekeeper the new buzzword of the day or something? Seriously though, calm down over there a little. Nobody wants to mindlessly gatekeep people out of content. Do you actually think the typical raider thinks 'wow there's just far too many PFs and people raiding today? Recruiting people for my static is way too easy. I sure wish the scene was half this size?'.

However, there is a very real barrier of progression (Keyword, Progression not Entry) that people do need to be able to reach to continue onward once you hit Extremes. DPS checks are a thing, yet the game does a really poor job of explaining anything beyond 'this button does this when you press it'. The value of weapon damage? Substats? Mainstats? The importance of 2 minute burst windows? When should I save CDs vs blowing everything?

IMHO any negatives (which can be instantly ruled out by SE changing absolutely nothing on their existing harassment policies I'll note) are easily counteracted by the benefits that some form of simplistic in game parsing tool could offer.

Right now a lot of players will hop out of a 24 man where pressing a button 10 times a minute is acceptable into an Extreme where it clearly isn't and have no idea why the content is chewing them up and spitting them out. This could be a potential avenue for them to explore to better understand where they are going wrong. I'm still firmly of the opinion that some kind of gold saucer mini game is the better approach to better facilitate this kind of use.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

You don't even have any jobs at 90. This strong stance about how you should be able to gatekeep players out of content is just strange to me given the fact you don't even have these fights unlocked yet.

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When you begin resorting to things such as this you have already lost the debate. Do you have any logical points for refuting what I said or not?

Again. My party my rules. If you feel entitled to clearing any content you wish with whomever you wish that tis strictly a you problem and it starts with selfish, ends with narcissistic. At this juncture am beginning to think 90% of this forum is just bad trolls. Surely no one huffs their own poots and enjoys it this much right? ... Right?

Am discussing Savage+ If you wish to find party that will allow you to "take it easy" or face roll the keyboard like everyone does in casual content you are in for bad time. The sooner some of you start accepting this the happier we shall all be. No one is gatekeeping anyone until Square somehow finds method for preventing you from forming a party/static yourself. Why is this confusing to some?

Go make a party right now! Farm - Learning - Clear for friend and test this out yourself. Bam! No more "gatekeeping". Work on finishing this tier might be better use of your personal time if we are resorting to that kinda nonsense.

If group checks your logs and kicks you there are three solutions you can explore;
Improve.
Find another group.
Make a PF/Static.

You cannot force a group to keep you if they do not wish to. Jeeeez, I hope this was concise enough.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

When you begin resorting to things such as this you have already lost the debate. Do you have any logical points for refuting what I said or not?

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

The fact that these forums will dig through to find logs and drop them into xivanalysis whenever they disagree with someone really calls into question how much these tools really are for personal improvement.
Just amazing how fast people who say it's only for personal improvement and they only look up their own will reach for it when they get upset at someone. Honestly it's why they shouldn't ever have that functionality in game.

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He literally uses this as an argument against dps meters/parses, which like.. okay fine and true, people of the forum do check logs when conversations like this pops up. But then you disagree with his gatekeeping argument and the first thing he does is run to the lodestone to check your levels lol. :confused: And for what? It proves nothing

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

When you begin resorting to things such as this you have already lost the debate. Do you have any logical points for refuting what I said or not?
...
Work on finishing this tier might be better use of your personal time if we are resorting to that kinda nonsense.

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The level of self awareness in this post is unreal lmao.
I've already argued for pages of this thread why it's bad to gatekeep content based on "you need to prove x damage before you can join" and why adding official parsing and dps meter support would encourage harassment and abuse, but you just want to ignore that and throw twitter style dunks at me. Grow up. You ignore everything I post and just put words in my mouth assuming that I'm saying something else.
How about you stay on topic about DPS meters, which is the point of the post you keep replying to from me?
You won't because you're just in here to lob personal attacks and act smug, you crave twitter style dunks instead of actual discussion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Padudu

He literally uses this as an argument against dps meters/parses, which like.. okay fine and true, people of the forum do check logs when conversations like this pops up. But then you disagree with his gatekeeping argument and the first thing he does is run to the lodestone to check your levels lol. :confused: And for what? It proves nothing

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His highest job level is literally linked inside of his post

"omg gatekeeping, like so toxic yikes"

Did I accidentally click on tumblr?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

His highest job level is literally linked inside of his post

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LMAO so what? It still doesn't invalidate anything of what they said at all.

Also,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

How about you stay on topic about DPS meters, which is the point of the post you keep replying to from me?

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My bro, you can't just talk about how "dps meters are bad because gatekeepers", get argued against on why gatekeeping is a bad argument, then turn around with "you should stay on topic!" that's not how that works lol. The fact is, the devs have designed it so that DPS checks are in a fight, DPS checks require a moderate amount of competency, people want to pair with people who are on their level of that competency, gatekeeping will happen. The devs have designed it that way. There's no way around that other than making fights so baby-bottle suckin' easy that stats, dps, rotations, ect would not matter anyways.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

His highest job level is literally linked inside of his post

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That doesn't suddenly make his opinion irrelevant.
Stop the gatekeep.

On the topic of gatekeeping, I would like to add in that this is the fear of many if they add a DPS Meter into the game incorrectly. By making it a personal thing, where it only shows your own, then it feels fair. However, then you create a stigma of static groups asking "Did you do X DPS or Y Damage?" and when you decide not to share because of toxicity it would bring, they will gatekeep you from joining a group. That's the problem. The solutions that MiaShino mentioned above are able to solve this, but it does not solve the problem of even PF going to say "Do X Damage" or "Clear this dummy". Which, in all honesty, turns more people off than other things.

That is the stigma we need to consider when adding any type of parser, personal or open, because there will be people who are judgmental about numbers and will shame you for your numbers. The harassment policy as noted in Sebazy's post does well against this, since shaming someone for their numbers counts as harassment. The amount of reports that can generate is also an issue internally, at least when it comes to the raiding community at large.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

The level of self awareness in this post is unreal lmao.
I've already argued for pages of this thread why it's bad to gatekeep content based on "you need to prove x damage before you can join" and why adding official parsing and dps meter support would encourage harassment and abuse, but you just want to ignore that and throw twitter style dunks at me. Grow up. You ignore everything I post and just put words in my mouth assuming that I'm saying something else.
How about you stay on topic about DPS meters, which is the point of the post you keep replying to from me?
You won't because you're just in here to lob personal attacks and act smug, you crave twitter style dunks instead of actual discussion.

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Wat? Are you okay? Look.. whatever gender you are. Am not going through your entire post history in this thread because nothing you have recently said is of any value. Stinks to hear? Oh well. Opinions be this way and that is this lala's.

I put two walls of words and letters discussing? Something about this not good enough? I disagree with everything you are saying and have not exactly been the obtuse about this. Read the words then take one deeeeep long breath until your emotions settle and you can process them.

Do not give one single hoot if group advertises as "Must do X damage to join" because it does not effect me. Either I meet the requirement or I do not. Tis that group leader's decision to set that requirement and I have no right to control who can and cannot join their party. It is not toxic and would happen with or without official damage meter. How do I know this? Because it already occurs.

Go look for speed clear groups and tell me they are not looking into your logs. Also tell me how banning number aggregators is working oh so swell preventing this behavior.

No one can prevent you from clearing content but they can and will prevent you from joining/remaining in their PF - Static if they wish. Uncertain why you are so butt mad about this anyways. You have P1S and P2S done so what is problem? You do not appear to be suffering from deeps based gatekeeping at'all.

Or, or keep obsessing over my displayed character level, whatever boats your float. Just understand if that is where these conversations will continue to go I shall not be entertaining them. Better things to do with my free time then punch a wall until my hands bleed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saimeren

Until it becomes "you can't join our group unless you can do "X" damage. Then it becomes gatekeeping.

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This system is already in place with duty complete, and iL filters.