New summoner is unacceptable

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Originally Posted by Roda

And yup, just as I feared, all this continuous 1 spam is causing hand strain...

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Just put your 3 abilities on a few different keys/buttons each. ;)

not a smn main and i dont know about lvl 90 smn

but smn seems a bit... shallow at 80. i sorted my bars and hopped into alliance raid. orbonne yesterday, the third nier raid today.... but i really wondered about smn. is that it? i looked at my bars but i used every skill on it, i searched for more skills, but i didnt found any. aside from aetherflow which has nothing to do with any other skills there is nothing else, is there? its just summoning an egi/primal pressing a few times one and the same button before repeating it. is that it or did i overlook something? cant help but wonder what did i overlook?

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Originally Posted by Roda

And yup, just as I feared, all this continuous 1 spam is causing hand strain...

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hi, healer main here. you get used to it.

also i like new summoner, way more interesting than pressing dots every 30 seconds. my only complaint is the two skills relying on carbuncle (radiant aegis and searing light) having to take that one gcd in order to use them before opening with bahamut is really annoying, i'd much prefer having it as a self-cast skill, rather than reliant on carby. carby is pretty much required for everything else.

If you're only pressing three buttons: You're doing it wrong and you have no idea how to play the class.

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Originally Posted by Angellos

If you're only pressing three buttons: You're doing it wrong and you have no idea how to play the class.

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It's nearly as shallow as a healer's dps "rotation" with the mobility of a physrange. Current SMN is absolutely pitiful.

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Originally Posted by Angellos

If you're only pressing three buttons: You're doing it wrong and you have no idea how to play the class.

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1, T, X, F, F1, 1/F4, 5, 1, B, 1, B, 1, 1, 1, E, 2, F, 2, F, 2, F, 2, F, G, F, 2, 2, 2, 2, R, V, 2, 2, F, F, 1, 1, X, 5

That's the entire level 90 rotation translated to my personal keybinds and button presses, give or take several more 1's (aka, Astral Impulse's or Ruin 3 filler spam). I'm sitting there spamming 3 buttons over and over for a huge portion of the rotation, Gemshine (2), Astral Flow (F) and Ruin/Astral Impulse (1). Once you're done with all those cooldowns that are all 60 seconds long and are all used during Bahamut/Phoenix you're back to 3 button spam for 60 seconds until they're back. Looks barely discernable from a WHM, Astro, Sage and SCH dps rotation.

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

a lot of people just hate the class design

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And a lot of people love it. Looking at the numbers, I'd say the lovers win by a huge margin. Never seen so many summoners around, and not only levelling.

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Originally Posted by Angellos

If you're only pressing three buttons: You're doing it wrong and you have no idea how to play the class.

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There's no such thing as playing smn wrong at this point. Even gathering nodes have more depth.

What I can't get over and makes me laugh is that when i'm running content with a Summoner, I often see the Carbuncle with his ass towards the boss... xD
I used to play Summoner a lot, and when I will level it(like last now...) that would really annoy me :p

I hate to break it to you, but they ABSOLUTELY DO think this is the way to design jobs now. Come on over to the healer forums...we've been spamming 1-button dps for 2 years now. It really sucks!
If you're angry and want someone to blame--look at Yoshi P. This design philosophy is his brain-child.

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Originally Posted by Truen

I hate to break it to you, but they ABSOLUTELY DO think this is the way to design jobs now. Come on over to the healer forums...we've been spamming 1-button dps for 2 years now. It really sucks!
If you're angry and want someone to blame--look at Yoshi P. This design philosophy is his brain-child.

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funnily enough I healed until early Shadowbringers and ShB completely gutted my job so I swapped to DPS. Went with Summoner towards the end of the expansion and now it just became healer 2.0 lol.

I don't think it's a design philosophy. I think it's because they want to cater to casuals. Yoshi P probably doesn't personally want this kind of job design, hence the design of Black Mage.

What they don't understand is: you can cater to casuals and veterans at the same time. Design a job that does not punish you hard and is intuitive, does not suffer from button bloat, and yet has surprising room for optimization that requires skill. Design a job that is highly accessible, and yet has a high skill ceiling (but NOT high damage ceiling). In other words, low skill floor, high skill ceiling. ShB RDM was intuitive but really optimizing on the mana and oGCD drifts was not really a trivial exercise.

6.0 SMN has the potential to be the apex of good job design. It is highly accessible, and honestly has a lot of surprising room for optimization in a group setting. But let's be real here - that "surprising room" is vanishingly small, but the trace of it convinces me that if SE put a bit more effort into it they can flesh it out to be an incredibly complex job that casuals can nevertheless pick up easily. Alas, they seem to think that should not be the way.

Ya know, it's really weird. They prune jobs, making them incredibly simplistic to play, then you look over at jobs like Reaper that is designed so well, everything just flows.

I played some more because I'm 82 now, but yeah...It's pretty underwhelming.
I miss DoT's firstly, and while the skills look pretty cool, I'm still bored of using the same 3 summons all these years.
Even though, these summons now pretty much play exactly the same now as they once again
stripped everything down to the ground and can be played without much thought.

I need to see how 90 is since I heard it's better, but I feel bad for players having
to get to 90...just to have a pretty fun class to play. I think it's 1 step forward and 2 steps back for me
and I don't think max level will really change how the class plays itself. :/

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

And a lot of people love it. Looking at the numbers, I'd say the lovers win by a huge margin. Never seen so many summoners around, and not only levelling.

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Depends on what circles you are in. I see more people hating on it or just generally disappointed from it

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

Depends on what circles you are in. I see more people hating on it or just generally disappointed from it

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Yeah we're aware that like 10 people on the forums that constantly bump each other's posts really really hate that their poison mage got taken away, along with all of its wonderful complexity. Meanwhile in game it's a different story. In the times that I've been able to log in and run roulettes Summoner is right up there with Reaper and Sage in terms of its popularity, even in low level content where surprisingly, Summoner is not the only job that feels incomplete at that point.

Levelling with it has been a blast so far, and I'm doing it on multiple characters on top of that. Even some of the haters I see didn't hate new Summoner enough to abandon their former main completely. I had to do a double take when I saw some of them in Limsa, it was truly a sight to behold. What the job needs moving forward are the summons that it's been missing since Heavensward when they should have added the remaining primals instead of doubling down on Bahamut Trance. As ogcds. As jewel or demi summons. It doesn't matter. Just get it done.

In Shadowbringers my experience with Summoner was a disastrous levelling experience when it was my first 80 that caused me to abandon it not long afterwards and now that Summoner will be my first 90 (assuming I get to actually log in and finish the story) I cannot imagine having any other class as my main. I can't wait to tackle endgame content with it and come 6.1, boost the alts that are too far behind for me to level the job all the way from scratch so I can max them out as well.

1. It's the FotM job alongside Reaper, we will see in a few months' time
2. It's not just the "same ten people on the forums" that dislike the new SMN but rather the majority of players in every endgame-related community at which you don't hang out I guess

Stop creating strawmen please

imagine thinking reaper is flavor of the month

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Originally Posted by Duskane

imagine thinking reaper is flavor of the month

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It'd be absurd to deny that it's been picked up by pretty much anyone because its aesthetics are incredible and becoming a "demon" sounds amazing.
That doesn't mean that every person that is playing it now is going to stick with it in the long run

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Originally Posted by RocciaSolida

1. It's the FotM job alongside Reaper, we will see in a few months' time
2. It's not just the "same ten people on the forums" that dislike the new SMN but rather the majority of players in every endgame-related community at which you don't hang out I guess

Stop creating strawmen please

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Well to be fair I think most endgame players like new SMN too. It's really only the top players (and I mean top as in mentality, because I know a lot of players who don't have time to raid hardcore but still love to perform well and use their brains) that dislike new SMN.

There is a huge gulf between the two though. The top raiders I know basically never interact with the wider community because, to be frank, parts of the community makes us lose brain cells when we read their illogical comments. So the dissatisfaction with new SMN really is not something that regular players would even notice because, well, there's this gulf.

While I do like the new smn more than the old one, it feels like rdm used to. Use it for new fights and switch to blm after you have a good idea of what you need to do lol. Old smn just felt clunky but new smn does feel pretty hollow. Blm just feels more satisfying to pull off well and it doesn't really have a super complex rotation or anything but you do have a good amount of flexibility to tackle fight changes/errors and such.

Like I said before, new smn feels like a WoW class without talent rows filled or borrowed power systems online. Like you get to 90 and look around saying "neat, now where is the rest of it?"

Only 150 dps buff LOL

I'd love to come with a more complete comment later, but as a short update (only level 84 lol), I've been still having fun with the job but I also feel like if this was the level 70 job or especially 60 the job would be like "WOW" but since this is 80 plus I can see how some feel it's a bit "quite straight forward". Currently I just make sure not to put Ifrit too close to not be able to use fast cast, otherwise it's usually fairly strict rotation.

Though I don't really feel compelled to have a hectic job, I recall the HW dark knight and was like "wot the thal's halls is this?" lol. Yet some people loved that. Still not negative feelings for the job, and am definitely loving the more primal focused attack structure (and am drooling for 86 and 90), but also just interested to hear what people are thinking. Personally I think the current foundation is pretty solid (as in from this point you can make changes and it wont feel like a tightly wound spring that might snap, I think from here we could be in a good spot for any fine tuning players / devs feel needs done). Saw some neat ideas to get the other three egi, balance concerns, etc.

Generally I just think FF Summoner (sans ARR lol) is a dang cool concept so I love SE constantly trying to up this job (and visually I think they're really on the right path now).

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Originally Posted by Skiros

Only 150 dps buff LOL

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For other people's context:

https://i.imgur.com/7v5PUAI.png

Which interestingly is feedback I saw here in the thread, that phoenix had nerfed damage. So, one may say they listened / are listening. Of course one might say "NOT ENOUGH" lol, but usually they don't make substantial changes too quickly (not that 'that' will make anyone feel better until better changes are done, just.. not surprised it was just that).

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Originally Posted by Skiros

Well to be fair I think most endgame players like new SMN too. It's really only the top players (and I mean top as in mentality, because I know a lot of players who don't have time to raid hardcore but still love to perform well and use their brains) that dislike new SMN.

There is a huge gulf between the two though. The top raiders I know basically never interact with the wider community because, to be frank, parts of the community makes us lose brain cells when we read their illogical comments. So the dissatisfaction with new SMN really is not something that regular players would even notice because, well, there's this gulf.

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"Only the stupids like new summoner hohoho." Jog on mate.

SMN Mains looking for things to do:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FIDSfr184...n+Travolta.gif

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

SMN Mains looking for things to do:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FIDSfr184...n+Travolta.gif

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This is off-topic, but they can join the Healer mains so they won’t be lonely. :D

I know that a lot of people aren't happy with the fact that it's no longer the pet class that we can remember (bye bye Egi + Choco party). Not to mention that our carby is now more of an aesthetic than a fighting companion. But, I've been playing around with SMN for a bit and so far there are a few pros and cons there for me.

Pros
- It finally feels like a summoner class/job. For those that have been around since 2.x, we all know the pain that was 2.x SMN/SCH and having to reallocate your points whenever you changed jobs. And with every update to smn, it always felt like the dev team could never get it right separate it from sch.

- We're no longer bound by the "Holy Trinity" system. This opens up the possibility for new summons such as Ramuh, Shiva, and Levi in future xpacs.

- No more having to build up a gauge for that big attack with Bahamut or Phoenix. Bahamut is right there for you to open with and then Phoenix right after you cycle through your first round of the three elements.

Cons
- Carby's just there now. Yeah sure, he can give us a barrier now, but that's it. No attacks or anything. I understand if they may have wanted this new version of summoner to be simple, but Carby feels pretty useless now just being there. I feel like I have two minions out now, it's just that one has to be out in order for me to use my other summons.

- Ifrit, for the love of Hydaelyn, who in their right mind thought that it was a good idea to add a casting time to Ifrit's attacks? This feels like Heavensward BRD. And they feel pretty underwhelming. To be on a casting time and only have two charges, I personally feel like Ifrit's attack should hit at least a bit harder than Garuda's and Titan's. Maybe not on the level of Bahamut and Phoenix, but you get the idea.

- Phoenix is limited to one big attack. Maybe my memory is wrong, but I could've sworn that 4.x - 5.x Phoenix you were allowed to at least crank out two big attacks while rotating in Phoenix's regular attacks. Now it's just one big attack and then P1+P2+P1+P2 until Phoenix's timer runs out.

- Why is Physick's potency still so low? I'm not saying bring it up to par with any healing class cure spells, but geez. I make out better letting my Choco heal me. Heck, even Alphanaud heals better than us, lol.

That's all I can think of so far as I'm still just a level 85 smn, but I might update this once I reach 90.

I actually enjoy the new SMN. Then again, I hated the old, so anything is better for me.

It's also cool that you can glam carby as any of the former egis and colored cabys. Love my Ruby.

After repeated and extensive playing, I have no idea how this rework can be considered "good". You have no room for improvement, the class design itself prevents it. As long as you press buttons and don't pull out Ifrit at a bad time, you are doing the best you can.

lol @those complaining about new summoner being boring. it was obvious if they ever make summoner close to what it was in other games that ends like this

Loving the new summoner now I just wish the summons would stay a little longer but overall much prefer it ^^

Just wish Carby would do something..

I feel like my wish got granted 'monkey paw' style.

I wanted big proper summons, I didn't mean throwing them out every 15s though. :p

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

SMN Mains looking for things to do:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FIDSfr184...n+Travolta.gif

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Basically me right now....

I think it's the best iteration yet but only once you hit 90. It finally feels like how a pet class should but could use more summons like Alexander or Odin. Basically in essence, keep going on this path and adding more summons like XI.

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Originally Posted by Xuled

I think it's the best iteration yet but only once you hit 90. It finally feels like how a pet class should but could use more summons like Alexander or Odin. Basically in essence, keep going on this path and adding more summons like XI.

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A pet class should have...no pets? No pet controls? You get one enkindle per minute of direct 'pet' input.

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Originally Posted by tearagion

A pet class should have...no pets? No pet controls? You get one enkindle per minute of direct 'pet' input.

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SMN isn't a "pet" job anymore. Change my mind.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

SMN isn't a "pet" job anymore. Change my mind.

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I agree, but that doesn't explain how it "finally feels like a pet class should".

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Originally Posted by tearagion

I agree, but that doesn't explain how it "finally feels like a pet class should".

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It finally feels like a Summoner should. Not that it couldn't use some adjustments, mind you. I know it's not perfect. But good lord is it fun, at least for me.

I still believe that a huge amount of people like the feeling of summoner just because the aesthetic is better. Because gameplay-wise, after playing it for a while... Doesn't feel very impressive imo.
It's good for farming stuff like fates, though.

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Originally Posted by Melorie

I still believe that a huge amount of people like the feeling of summoner just because the aesthetic is better. Because gameplay-wise, after playing it for a while... Doesn't feel very impressive imo.
It's good for farming stuff like fates, though.

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That is part of it, sure, but I genuinely enjoy its gameplay too.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

It finally feels like a Summoner should. Not that it couldn't use some adjustments, mind you. I know it's not perfect. But good lord is it fun, at least for me.

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And I think it doesn't feel like a Summoner much anymore outside of demis, can we stop posting this subjective drivel please?