Healers that don't want to DPS are like DPSes who refuse to move out of AoEs.

To everyone, there is honestly no solution to this "debate", obviously no side is gonna be convinced otherwise cause I've already attempted that several times to no avail, and vice versa with people attempting that with others and I.

Just keep playing with the people you prefer, and for those who prefer not to DPS and focus on healing, just avoid the ones who attempt to force you to play in a way that makes you uncomfortable. In turn, the people that want to play as efficient as possible and whom get emotionally bothered by people playing Healer without DPSing, just don't play with these people if it bothers you.

Win win.

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Envoyé par Bourne_Endeavor

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You say "shouldn't be" but that isn't realistic, and it doesn't make it impossible to do so. Fact is, it happens, and it happens often.

In my opinion, I agree with you. If you plan on healing, learning to stance dance is a part of its meta. Its one of the unwritten, unofficial, and not taught aspects of the game. And you should be able to do so by the time you reach certain content. But I, however, don't let my opinions blind me and allow me to properly judge others who don't share that opinion, or is ignorant to these unwritten, unofficial, and not taught aspects. (I am not saying that you are blinded or anything, I'm just speaking of myself).

While I would love to always run into healers (or rather players of every role & job) that are capable of playing as optimally as possible, what I expect from the players base is the bare minimum of what the game actually teaches and provides. If I allowed myself to expect anything more when I decide to queue in DF with random players, especially when things like POTD has been released, I'd be disappointed by most of the players, all of the time. So I don't. I understand that I am going to be playing with players who don't look up effective rotations, who don't have friends to teach them the proper way, and who don't actually care to get any better than what they are. That understanding helps me not get upset or even at all bothered whenever I do run into players who play poorly.

But maybe that's just me. I rather enjoy this game being stress free, and I do things that keeps it stress free.

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Envoyé par bardaboo

yep the game might not teach you, so it should be our job as a community to teach. But we're at how many pages now of people defending NOT dpsing as a healer because "nurt mah jurb".

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There's a difference in being empathetic & understanding towards players who simply just don't know how to do it properly and would rather not out of fear of messing up, and calling them trash who should uninstall because they don't. Its the tone this thread took since the original post, and its a natural for others to get defensive.

I agree that healers should indeed learn how to dps as a healer since they were given the ability to do so, but its important to understand and accept that they won't always happen, not matter how much we would like it to. As new players enter the game, or old players try out not jobs & roles, its almost guaranteed that you'll run into players who don't play optimally, and I, for one, would rather not let myself get worked up because of it, for I would just end up getting upset every single day, and that's not really why I play video games in general lol.

That's just me though.

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Envoyé par RaijinSupreme

There's a difference in being empathetic & understanding towards players who simply just don't know how to do it properly and would rather not out of fear of messing up, and calling them trash who should uninstall because they don't. Its the tone this thread took since the original post, and its a natural for others to get defensive.

I agree that healers should indeed learn how to dps as a healer since they were given the ability to do so, but its important to understand and accept that they won't always happen, not matter how much we would like it to. As new players enter the game, or old players try out not jobs & roles, its almost guaranteed that you'll run into players who don't play optimally, and I, for one, would rather not let myself get worked up because of it, for I would just end up getting upset every single day, and that's not really why I play video games in general lol.

That's just me though.

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What a nice mature outlook, such a shame others won't adopt it. Alas, that's just my opinion. I've played MMORPG's for a long time and there's many things that I'm capable of or aware of that would be quite difficult for others which I've seen so many times in interactions with others. Then there are things that other people do far better than I ever could or I have yet to reach that type of skill just yet and am unsure. There are so many varying degrees when playing a game with random players that there should be no major expectations like this unless you are setting up a party finder.

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Envoyé par RaijinSupreme

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I never said I expected it. I don't. With the exception of Savage, I'll roll my eyes and not worry about it. That doesn't mean I will defend the position when giving an opinion, which is what this thread is. What I will do is criticism the design because the overall lack of teaching and easy mechanics is what makes attempting Extreme Primals and Savage so difficult for these players.

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Envoyé par Bourne_Endeavor

I never said I expected it. I don't. With the exception of Savage, I'll roll my eyes and not worry about it. That doesn't mean I will defend the position when giving an opinion, which is what this thread is. What I will do is criticism the design because the overall lack of teaching and easy mechanics is what makes attempting Extreme Primals and Savage so difficult for these players.

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On that very same end, you could criticize the fact that Healer DPS is not actually balanced for this game properly and that the content in this game has leeway in that you can actually DPS and Heal in dungeons, despite it not being intentional to this extreme.

This whole argument is based around a Role design becoming something it wasn't intended to be outright (Healer DPS potency in dungeons). That's why I always feel odd about getting fussed with people who don't. I feel it really comes down to impatience and intolerance of other play styles IMO in an oddly balanced game.

To the discussion about how large part do DPS abilities have in healer play, I think instead of looking at the amount of available DPS abilities (which is substantial), it's more useful to again look how the abilities are used in actual fights. Looking at the highest performing WHM in FFlogs for Xelphatol (for some reason the logs for newest experts weren't available), during their whole dungeon run (done in December) they were using a total of 21 healing ability casts (2 Asylum, 2 Stoneskin, 3 Tetra, 7 Assize, 5 Regen, and 1 Benediction). Please note that this was all the healing required to keep everyone alive for the whole duration (12 minutes 24 seconds) of the dungeon run (+ the DRK tank's Another Victim).

Now during that same run, the WHM cast 194 DPS spells (39 Holy, 63 Stone III, 7 Assize, 19 Aero III, 16 Fluid Aura, 26 Aero, and 24 Aero II). Now if this WHM would only have been healing, they would have used only 21 abilities. With DPS, they used 187 more (not counting Assize twice)! Their total amount of abilities (including Protect etc.) in the instance was 279, and of that the healing formed only 7.5% and DPS 67% (excluding Assize). The WHM did 1557.5 DPS and was the top DPS in the whole party (they also used 4 potions during the run to achieve that).

Of course this is an extreme example from really good players overgearing the dungeon, but it still shows how much DPS a healer is able to bring to the team while still keeping everyone completely safe, and also how large is the amount of DPS abilities in comparison to healing abilities when a healer job is played to its fullest effectiveness. Now no one is asking this level of performance from anyone, especially in Duty Finder, but it is a real shame to see healers just throw this potential away completely - and just because "I'm a healer so I won't do anything else".

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Envoyé par Laerune

Personaly, I am curious why we are avoiding the elephant in the room when it comes to these discussion. I hate to ruffle some feathers, but aside from healers able to dps during downtime, there is another reason why groups want their healers to dps and that is to compensate for low dps.

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This is rarely true, actually. In fact, if you look at the FFlogs, you will see the highest healer DPS players also having highest DPS DD and tank players (in general). There is no ceiling to DPS (well there is one defined by the 100% perfect performance and gear, but for most players it stays theoretical), unlike there is for maximum damage in a boss fight, so one party member adding to it doesn't lower it for anyone else. In fact, a healer adding to the party DPS is possibly able to increase the DPS of the DDs and tanks as well, since the fights will go faster. It is of course true that healers are able to compensate for poor DPS performance in some cases, but I don't think many people would argue they should DPS because it's their duty to cut other people's slack. Just like people don't generally argue that a DD should use their best available rotation only to cover for those who are doing less.

I like how people complain about said healers dps during dungeons, yet don't realize that more than 90% of DPS users in the game can barely go past 400 dps :P

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Envoyé par KokonoeAiyoko

Win win.

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i think one of the issue would be what party we are talking about
for DF, i would takes time to observe my tank, my dps
to observe how their skill, how their equipment, how well their movement
boss fight mechanic is predictable, but the ability of 3 random people isnt
so i think ppl have to lower their expectation in DF, that's what a DF is
it is not PF which leader can set rules before everyone joining

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Envoyé par KokonoeAiyoko

On that very same end, you could criticize the fact that Healer DPS is not actually balanced for this game properly and that the content in this game has leeway in that you can actually DPS and Heal in dungeons, despite it not being intentional to this extreme.

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I think there will always be opportunities to dps (or do anything else to fill that time when you don't need to heal) due to player skill gap and gearing up. The latter is quite obvious, if you need 10 heals at i250 when you first clear a raid, then you'll probably need let's say 8 heals at i270 when farming the same raid floor, due to the raw healing increase and everyone's def/mdef/hp increase alone. If you consider better strategies and/or phase skips, probably even less.

Other than that, the best players/groups who coordinate their defensive utilities well (between tanks/healers/dps) and maximize their toolkits will be able to perform better than average healers in PUGs, so if you make the healing checks intense enough to make those players have to heal near full time, that content won't be accessible to PUGs, and we get another gordias savage, except people now struggle with healing checks instead of dps checks. The current performance gap between skilled healers (also supported by their groups) and average healers is too big, if you want to have an idea about this try to check the speedrun videos or fflogs of the fastest groups, and see how little the number of heals cast by the healers (and they can get away with it because of extremely optimized cd usages between tanks, healers and the ridiculously high group dps to finish fights/phases faster than normal groups). On this end, I feel that the devs already have some idea since I remember they mentioned things about reducing the gap between skill floor/ceiling by the 4.0 battle revamp (how well will that work, we obviously don't know yet, but at least it seems like they're going to the right direction). Right now it's pretty much impossible to make contents demanding enough to make good players heal a lot while making it still clearable by average PUGs.

I don't know if you have any savage raid experience, but I'll assume you know the faust z fight (savage is the same as normal, just higher boss hp and dmg). Typical RF/PF PUG run would have one healer full time healing the two tanks from the beginning, alternating heals between the two (they take tank busters every 7-10s), and the fight will end at around 1m20s. The other (off) healer will dps at the start and probably start helping with heals after certain point in the fight when the tanks run out of cds so they take more dmg, and the tanks may have to go back into tank stance. Meanwhile the fastest savage faust z clear is around 40s (twice as fast) and both healers and tanks stay in cleric/dps stance throughout the fight. Not a single healing spell cast after the pull. Prepull shield/regen and fairy heals are enough to keep the two tanks alive. From that point of view this fight has ridiculously easy healing requirements, but if you increase the tank buster damage/frequency until these top players need to heal often, the average groups who finish the fight in 1m20s or even longer will probably have no chance to clear it.

Of course if they can introduce ways to fill those downtime for healers without dpsing, I'm all for it. Maybe introduce short duration buffs that can be cast on party members, or anything that can make up for the lack of healer dps. Basically right now dpsing is the one and only way to fill that downtime once you satisfy the minimum healing requirements of a fight. More options would always be welcome (I have similar view for ideas about things for tanks to do to help the group other than simply dropping tank stance, but as of now turtle tanking won't help the group as much as dropping tank stance since the extra tankiness won't make healers dps increase as much as you lose).

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Envoyé par KokonoeAiyoko

On that very same end, you could criticize the fact that Healer DPS is not actually balanced for this game properly and that the content in this game has leeway in that you can actually DPS and Heal in dungeons, despite it not being intentional to this extreme.

This whole argument is based around a Role design becoming something it wasn't intended to be outright (Healer DPS potency in dungeons). That's why I always feel odd about getting fussed with people who don't. I feel it really comes down to impatience and intolerance of other play styles IMO in an oddly balanced game.

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Omitting healer DPS from damage calculations makes it so dedicated DPS roles can meet required checks. A common complaint with Gordias Savage was it being literally impossible for DPS jobs to perform their role. In theory, this type of design allows the devs to experiment with non-DPS mechanics ala Refurbisher. Nevertheless, it doesn't mean you should be standing still. People fuss over it due to that reason alone. Take Zurvan EX. There are only two instances of heavy damage throughout the entire fight: the second add phase and Tyrfing. If both healers exclusively heal, one or both of you will find portions of the fight where you're waiting or simply doing nothing. Now this obviously does not account for potential mistakes along the way, but you should adjust to the mistakes as they happen or anticipate where someone might mess up. If we don't skip Soar, I'll drop Cleric on the chance people will screw up positions. Otherwise, whenever I off heal, I only drop Cleric to toss up secondary heals (Medica II) or if someone gets a bleed debuff, couldn't get into position for Biting Halberd and etc.

Refusing to DPS is not a play style anymore than a Bard refusing to sing or a Dark Knight keeping Darkside off to converse MP is. The game simply doesn't deal enough damage to warrant consistent healing nor is it reactionary to incentivising waiting for the next "big hit" as it's entirely predictable. Impatience isn't necessarily a factor. Once you start approaching higher level content, the expectation from players increases for everyone. Higher damage output allows for mechanic skips. Without healer DPS, it requires a higher ilvl and near perfect performance from your damage dealers and tanks to skip Lapis in A11S. People want to push those phases because once you've beaten the fight a couple times, that's where the enjoyment comes: seeing what you can skip and optimizing. Something to keep in mind is my emphasis on tanks and damage dealers. They have to perform optimally to skip Lapis. Is it not fair they expect the same from their healers?

I mean.. If a healer wants to just heal and nothing else I'm not dodging AoEs. They want something to heal so I'm giving them something to heal. :^)

If the Healer is doing DPS then I will dodge AoE so they don't need to heal as often.

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Envoyé par Bourne_Endeavor

Practice. Honestly, I find this excuse equally tiresome. We're talking about max level content not leveling. If you aren't comfortable

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But thats you I could care less if someone on my run learns how to dps on my run but causes wipes because they are putting in so called effort. Id much rather have a wipe free run period and if that means the healer only heals then please do so.

Im not tryin to wipe in no dungeons, and sometimes dps happy healers have caused wipes because they said dps was low well I dont really care I just want to get out of here, when they came back and stuck to healing on the same run no wipes. Sometimes healers get carried away with there dps tryin to do to much , would I prefer them over safe healer that heals only not really Id much rather have a clean run in a dungeon get in and get out.

I'm all for speed runs and love them so long as it's fairly smooth. If there is a lot of wipes it's usually because someone is trying to meet the standard for speed runs that isn't comfortable or skilled enough to do them so in turn the run ends up taking longer than if pulls are a bit smaller.

For whatever reason some ppl just can't meet the expectations that are put on content whether it's due to lack of skill, lack of confidence, or because of anxity issues. A decent person would respect different play styles even if it's not to thier play style. I've run content where the tank has done small pulls where big pulls are normally done and everything aoe'd, drives me nuts but I just go with it trying to respect them that's they're pulling what they're comfortable with.

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Envoyé par bswpayton

........ dps was low well I dont really care I just want to get out of here..

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So extra dps should be a good thing, yeah? If you are ok with dps not knowing thrir rotation leading to a slower run why can't a healer learn to dps on your time? Sure you may wipe leading to a longer run, but if your ok with dps slowing you down whats the issue.

Man after that solid counter argument from page 1 it's a wonder why anyone would bother rep- just saw the tags
It all makes sense now.

So many replies in this troll thread.

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Envoyé par Bourne_Endeavor

Omitting healer DPS from damage calculations makes it so dedicated DPS roles can meet required checks. A common complaint with Gordias Savage was it being literally impossible for DPS jobs to perform their role. In theory, this type of design allows the devs to experiment with non-DPS mechanics ala Refurbisher.

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That in itself very clearly shows why it isn't necessary by design. And for the Gordias bit, even the devs mentioned they executed that incorrectly.

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Nevertheless, it doesn't mean you should be standing still. People fuss over it due to that reason alone. Take Zurvan EX. There are only two instances of heavy damage throughout the entire fight: the second add phase and Tyrfing. If both Healers exclusively heal, one or both of you will find portions of the fight where you're waiting or simply doing nothing. Now this obviously does not account for potential mistakes along the way, but you should adjust to the mistakes as they happen or anticipate where someone might mess up. If we don't skip Soar, I'll drop Cleric on the chance people will screw up positions. Otherwise, whenever I off heal, I only drop Cleric to toss up secondary heals (Medica II) or if someone gets a bleed debuff, couldn't get into position for Biting Halberd and etc.

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I've played this game a considerable amount of hours, hell I've been playing since FFXIV 1.0 beta, but since that's besides the point I want to talk about how I've never witnessed someone literally doing nothing. There are moments where a Healer "stands still", but you literally cannot get away with that for too long unless you are doing unsynced content. You have to Cure eventually, or use Cure II, watch your MP, watch the people in your party, watch the mechanics. I feel the "standing still" thing people say often is rather cynical. They are doing their job, they are healing you and the party. There may be brief a gap of seconds where an action isn't taking place, but Healer is something you play in real time or else the party whipes. The focus is there regardless if this occurs or not.

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Refusing to DPS is not a play style anymore than a Bard refusing to sing or a Dark Knight keeping Darkside off to converse MP is. The game simply doesn't deal enough damage to warrant consistent healing nor is it reactionary to incentivising waiting for the next "big hit" as it's entirely predictable. Impatience isn't necessarily a factor. Once you start approaching higher level content, the expectation from players increases for everyone. Higher damage output allows for mechanic skips. Without healer DPS, it requires a higher ilvl and near perfect performance from your damage dealers and tanks to skip Lapis in A11S. People want to push those phases because once you've beaten the fight a couple times, that's where the enjoyment comes: seeing what you can skip and optimizing. Something to keep in mind is my emphasis on tanks and damage dealers. They have to perform optimally to skip Lapis. Is it not fair they expect the same from their healers?

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You say that the game doesn't do enough damage to warrant it, but what if that is also by design? What if that is there as a threshold so that more people can play the Healer class and not be overwhelmed?

As for the Dark Side part, I'm going to vehemently disagree. I'm a DRK main, and Dark Side is practically required to Tank due to the damage mitigation and damage required for keeping aggro. Dark Side is so explicitly designed in DRK's kit for tanking that it's not comparable to Cleric Stance which directly hinders a Healer's kit and has no actual follow ups between any job's moves. It makes you do more damage, but it's not integral to your healing or buffing abilities. It's very basic and clearly meant to be there for Main Scenario play and FATEs. To be honest, with the way it's designed, it probably was made that way just so you wouldn't use it in a dungeon. Seems like a rather odd thing to add if they wanted us to DPS.

And for the main part, wanting someone to play optimally and trying to shame or force someone into playing optimally are not the same thing. You are referring to raids here, where usually the more hardcore/maniac type players give it their all optimizing as much as possible to win. You can very well create a Party Finder and ensure the Healer's that join are doing DPS for this content.

In other words, you set the rules of your own party, but the Duty Finder is anything goes and tolerance and acceptance of all play styles (to a reasonable degree) will go much further towards peace and entertainment than getting annoyed at "suboptimal" players.

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Envoyé par Remus

I mean.. If a healer wants to just heal and nothing else I'm not dodging AoEs. They want something to heal so I'm giving them something to heal. :^)

If the Healer is doing DPS then I will dodge AoE so they don't need to heal as often.

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On the other hand, if I realize that you want to die so much then I'll probably just let you.

I don't get this argument. I mean I agree that healers should dps when they can, but the comparison is ridiculous. Healers have to dodge the same stuff that dps do while performing their role - healing. Dps dodge stuff while performing their role - dps. Saying that healers need to dps, heal AND dodge, is basically saying they not only need to perform their designated role keeping everyone alive, and dodge/do mechanics, but they also have to make up for dps roles sucking at their job.

Healers should dps when they can. When they can is determined solely by the healer and their familiarity level and comfortability with the content in question.

Healers not dpsing is in no way comparable to dps not dodging aoe. Healers have to dodge that aoe too while doing their job (healing), just like dps has to dodge while doing their job (dps).

There's valid arguments to be made on why healers should dps, but this is not one of them.

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Envoyé par Bourne_Endeavor

partial snip-Refusing to DPS is not a play style anymore than a Bard refusing to sing or a Dark Knight keeping Darkside off to converse MP is. Is it not fair they expect the same from their healers?

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I rarely see bards sing anyway and i can't tell the difference. It's not even needed most of the time. And just to open another can of worms and dump it all over the floor to be smeared around with the already ridiculous healer dps back and forth going on, the vast majority of tanks I play with don't stance dance either. They stay purely in tank stance and that's it. Works just fine unless there's a tank swap involved, which there rarely is, so I don't see the problem with tanks not stance dancing either. Yes I believe healers should be able to stand around and not dps if they want as long as they keep everyone alive and tanks and dps should just sea with it. If they want to stand around too then they should roll healer.

TL;DR I'm fine with others putting forth the bare minimum and playing the game casually. Doesn't stop me from enjoying the game.

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Envoyé par DaikiKiyoshi

They stay purely in tank stance and that's it.

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You know, I'm fine with my tank staying purely in an attack stance, just as long as it doesn't result in a wipe or a KO. I hold out as long as possible before I tell my tank to switch to their aggro stance. If we can progress either way, then I'll let them play how they want. It'll be an interesting experience at least, and they're more likely to willingly listen to me to begin with if it's already after things have gone wrong.

The only time I really expect my team to put up or shut up is something that really requires you to put forth that amount of effort.

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Envoyé par DaikiKiyoshi

I rarely see bards sing anyway and i can't tell the difference. It's not even needed most of the time. And just to open another can of worms and dump it all over the floor to be smeared around with the already ridiculous healer dps back and forth going on, the vast majority of tanks I play with don't stance dance either. They stay purely in tank stance and that's it. Works just fine unless there's a tank swap involved, which there rarely is, so I don't see the problem with tanks not stance dancing either. Yes I believe healers should be able to stand around and not dps if they want as long as they keep everyone alive and tanks and dps should just sea with it. If they want to stand around too then they should roll healer.

TL;DR I'm fine with others putting forth the bare minimum and playing the game casually. Doesn't stop me from enjoying the game.

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By giving them a pat on the back for being lazy you're just promoting it, but then everyone complains when the norm is to be as lazy as you can, refusing to improve and getting rejected/kicked from parties because people expected more than you've been whiteknighted for before that point. 24 man easy raids being a complete chaos wipefest because why would I care, 23 other people will work for it (or so they think). Oh those filthy elites asking to skip soar! my icemage rotation won't work there, how could they! they're not teaching new players!

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Envoyé par Kit-Kat

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ice mages don't exist, Stop using that as an argument. No one is promoting laziness... Promoting harassment is not good. I rather people focus on their main role instead of near wiping other going beyond. I've seen lazy healers who just dps.

Hate to say, but 24 man raids are a wipe fest because of disorganization. No one leads, people don't communicate. There is no set way to do it.

good players are the people who do their role well:healers healing and raising people, tanks tanking, dps dealing damage.

imo the "moar dps" is more of a lazy mindset then "healers should dps" mindset is.

Sorry but please take a step back and re-read this, as it is a lame reply, that comes off as vindictive.

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Envoyé par Nicodemus_Mercy

Healers should dps when they can. When they can is determined solely by the healer and their familiarity level and comfortability with the content in question.

Healers not dpsing is in no way comparable to dps not dodging aoe. Healers have to dodge that aoe too while doing their job (healing), just like dps has to dodge while doing their job (dps).

There's valid arguments to be made on why healers should dps, but this is not one of them.

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if everyone in this community have good mindset like you do, 99% of healer dps thread will not exist
but instead
many people just jump into the ship of healer dont dps = lazy

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Envoyé par Misutoraru

many people just jump into the ship of healer dont dps = lazy

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"Many people" you are just making up for your argument's sake. People are only asking for healers to DPS when they are able to do so. People are only calling healers lazy when they simply refuse to DPS and instead choose to do nothing (useful) at all when they would be able to use that time being helpful.

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Envoyé par BigRed5392

ice mages don't exist, Stop using that as an argument. No one is promoting laziness... Promoting harassment is not good. I rather people focus on their main role instead of near wiping other going beyond. I've seen lazy healers who just dps.

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Icemages do exist, just not as often. I would have used another term, but now that would have upset many people. Yes, they're promoting laziness by defending lazy gameplay insead of accepting criticism. Who is promoting harassment? Or a better question, what do you consider as harassment? Calling someone out is not harassment, depending on how they do it though.

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Hate to say, but 24 man raids are a wipe fest because of disorganization. No one leads, people don't communicate. There is no set way to do it.

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24 man raids are a mess because people are careless as it's a zergfest and other people will pick up the slack, ignoring every mechanic. Not even talking about newbies here. You don't need communication nor someone leading you to dodge a red and blatant telegraph or ignoring repeated dungeon/raids mechanics, which is just common mechanics in basically through the entire game.

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good players are the people who do their role well:healers healing and raising people, tanks tanking, dps dealing damage.

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Good players are the one that take time to optimize the maximum of their kit, no matter the role depending on the situation. If you decide to ignore your job's skills when you have nothing else to do but stand still and dance just because of a role name, you're doing it wrong.

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imo the "moar dps" is more of a lazy mindset then "healers should dps" mindset is.

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When everything is based on making an enemy's HP reach 0, how is "moar dps mindset" lazy? I'm really curious what your term of being lazy is, after all your posts mentioning it.

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Envoyé par Taika

"Many people" you are just making up for your argument's sake. People are only asking for healers to DPS when they are able to do so. People are only calling healers lazy when they simply refuse to DPS and instead choose to do nothing (useful) at all when they would be able to use that time being helpful.

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ya, because if everyone have the understanding it is at the healer feeling comfortable to do dmg,
most of this thread will never exist
yes, i m being exaggerate, because in almost every-single Healer dps thread
I have nicely, and kindly explain it is the healer, could be no confidence on party, could be the healer not enough experience with the dungeon mechanics, or simply the not well equip enough for doing dps and healing together in big pull
for example my AST is just il233, I have to focus on healing all the time in expert run when tank always do big pull, and AOE become messy (AOE circle block the mob) in Sohm Al HM
I have try so hard to deliver such message, since I believe most of these kind of argument come from DF, as in PF you set your own rules
instead, my message never seem to getting through

Playing Tank sometimes. I really dont care if the healer dps or not :3 im learning to do good packs in all roulet dongeon , i always hope healer(s) not forget to take off dps mode :x

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Envoyé par Rubiss

DPS is only there for damage.

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...and more than 90% of them are failing very hard on this. What a stupid discussion.

I don't know why people say healers don't do any damage. All of you healer mains tear eachother to shreds here on the forums. I truly wonder what kind of DPS uptime some of you guys have on eachother.

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Envoyé par Fluffernuff

I don't know why people say healers don't do any damage. All of you healer mains tear eachother to shreds here on the forums. I truly wonder what kind of DPS uptime some of you guys have on eachother.

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Yeah, maybe suggestions would be better, like removing cleric stance, but upping the dmg of skills? Or remove cleric stance and let skills heals be based of on INT or something.

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Envoyé par Ralts

Yeah, maybe suggestions would be better, like removing cleric stance, but upping the dmg of skills? Or remove cleric stance and let skills heals be based of on INT or something.

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uhm, the other way around ^^ the healer stat is mind. they could use mind for dpsing and get rid of cleric stance. i am all for it, i don't like the clunky stance-dance...

however, my solution for the whole healer-dps debatte is adding of a new healer job without active dps tools. instead this healer has lots of buffs and utility... too bad, that AST already is the buffing-healer...
but then people who like to dps can play their dpsing-healers and people who don't like to dps have their buffing-healers...

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Envoyé par Ralts

Yeah, maybe suggestions would be better, like removing cleric stance, but upping the dmg of skills? Or remove cleric stance and let skills heals be based of on INT or something.

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the joke was you all are doing your damage here. against eachother. instead of in-game. it wasnt a suggestion. it was a jab about how the forums are filled with people just attacking eachother about this topic. And now that i had to explain it, it is dead.

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Envoyé par Fluffernuff

the joke was you all are doing your damage here. against eachother. instead of in-game. it wasnt a suggestion. it was a jab about how the forums are filled with people just attacking eachother about this topic. And now that i had to explain it, it is dead.

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http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pu...ainthejoke.jpg

EDIT: If it makes you feel better I got it the first time :P

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Envoyé par Fluffernuff

I don't know why people say healers don't do any damage. All of you healer mains tear eachother to shreds here on the forums. I truly wonder what kind of DPS uptime some of you guys have on eachother.

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Especially scholar players, those people are so toxic.

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Envoyé par Ririta

Especially scholar players, those people are so toxic.

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And it's always the WHM who stands around doing nothing after healing. Very bizarre.

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Envoyé par Rubiss

And it's always the WHM who stands around doing nothing after healing. Very bizarre.

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Funny, cause I've seen people run dungeons just letting their pet do everything. SCH is EZ mode.

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Envoyé par Rubiss

And it's always the WHM who stands around doing nothing after healing. Very bizarre.

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I don't get this one, care to explain?

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Envoyé par loreleidiangelo

I don't get this one, care to explain?

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WHM is usually "main healer" in raids and use this as an excuse to never DPS even during downtime.