The Real Problem with Parsers

What the devs should implement instead is an individual parser meaning you cant see other players parsers which I agree with. DCUO (F2P btw) finally implemented an individual parser a few months ago.

Link to the parser with lots of detail on how to customize it...ect https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMp9mD2bOlk

Quick view with paser on multiple dummys https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNEv4aVwPSQ

What the DCUO devs did was use the chat battle log to calculate all your damage done in a set time then show you your Damage Per Second, crit %'s, highest hit and total damage done in a set amount of time. The best part was you could set the time you want to see your current parser like every 30 secs, 60 secs or when you stopped doing battle. This allowed each individual to set goals like perfecting your opener and see how you were contributing to the fight.. You can even use this on a dummy to test out new load outs and rotations.

By using the chat battle log as a parser allowed the devs to implement this to all platforms ps3, ps4, pc...ect. PS3 and PS4 players did not suffer through any issues regarding this type of parser on DCUO so there is no reason as to why the FFXIV devs couldn't implement this into FFXIVI haven't heard of any negative feed backs on the DCUO forums regarding the new parsers. All I read were praises and how thankful the community was for what the devs did. :cool:

So this would work and I like this, but chat box doesn't recognize DOTs tho but I'm sure the debs can work around that. But yeah YOSHI I hope your reading this.

personal parser numbers mean nothing in a vacuum. The baddies in this game will look at that number and think cool im doing great. What I'd like to see is a scoreboard at the end of EVERY instance (dungeon/trial/raid) just like in PvP that shows damage dealt, healing numbers, etc. Maybe when people see their PLD outdpsing them they'll actually think about what they are doing with their abilities.

"The real problem with parsers"
Is that square hasn't put them in the game yet.

/thread

>_>

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Originally Posted by segagamer

If no parsers are allowed, how are we able to see the pro groups like this from the DF?
http://i.imgur.com/ARTBqK5.png
This is from an A4 run I just did. (NIN died in quarantine so I was expecting low dps from him at the end of the fight.)

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Seriously having a terrible day at work today but sir i thank you, i cannot stop laughing at them numbers. im actually in tears lol. 85dps lmao

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Originally Posted by Astral145

By using the chat battle log as a parser allowed the devs to implement this to all platforms ps3, ps4, pc...ect. PS3 and PS4 players did not suffer through any issues regarding this type of parser on DCUO so there is no reason as to why the FFXIV devs couldn't implement this into FFXIVI haven't heard of any negative feed backs on the DCUO forums regarding the new parsers. All I read were praises and how thankful the community was for what the devs did. :cool:

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Except that the FFXIV combat log is garbage. So their first step would be having to fix that (which should have been a first step back in...oh, ARR Beta?).

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Originally Posted by sackm

personal parser numbers mean nothing in a vacuum. The baddies in this game will look at that number and think cool im doing great. What I'd like to see is a scoreboard at the end of EVERY instance (dungeon/trial/raid) just like in PvP that shows damage dealt, healing numbers, etc. Maybe when people see their PLD outdpsing them they'll actually think about what they are doing with their abilities.

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Hahahhaha, nah. They'll come to the forum and complain about class imbalance. Hue-hue-hue!

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Originally Posted by GodIsALoli

The easiest way to circumvent the DF problem of people getting kicked from the official parser would be to only show the breakdown of the parse results after a dungeon/raid is cleared. Simple. People can simply leave at the end before they harassed for their extremely sub-par dps (E.g. 700 and below dps at i190).

This wouldn't solve the initial problems of people getting kicked from DF by people using the unofficial parsers still. The way to solve this problem? As Yoshida once said, "Git Gud".

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So what if the group can't clear said dungeon/raid? :P

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Originally Posted by sackm

personal parser numbers mean nothing in a vacuum.

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Public parser numbers mean nothing without context. If a MNK is pulling 800 with gear that allows for 1200 and a DRG is pulling 700 with the MNK being top, they're not going to think "Oh, I'm not doing 1200, I should pick up the pace," without knowing that with their gear, they could be doing 1200. They're going to think "Oh hey, I'm beating the DRG, I'm top DPS. I kick ass."

If a BRD is pulling 600 compared to a DRG pulling 800, even if they're both underperforming for their gear, why couldn't the BRD just shrug it off and say it's due to BRD just naturally being lower? They'd have to know they could do higher in order to even think they should try. Conversely, the DRG could look at that and go "Wow, I kicked the crap out of the BRD, I'm awesome."

But let's face it, if someone's being out DPSed by a PLD, do you really think they're the type of person to even care about a scoreboard at the end?

Yea, public DPS parsers are kinda worthless in content that puts people of wildly different ilevels (and thus damage potential) together. I'm not sure if it's true for ffxiv, but damage scaling from gear is both non-linear *and* tends to be different across classes in other games, so you could only compare that guy in your pug to "another ilevel 157 dragoon". Of course there are those who do insanely low damage for whatever reason, but that tends to come with long periods of doing nothing, completely ignoring mechanics, or just using abilities in an order that doesn't make sense. Don't need a parser to notice that! Not to mention that even in other games, I prefer looking at parser stats like "how many times player x screwed up / took avoidable damage due to mechanics" or "how many times they have successfully interrupted enemy abilities".

Now for serious-business ilevel-synced content (or content where everyone has similar gear levels) such as savage raids, FFXIV equivalent of Challenge Modes (maybe synced ARR raids / EX?), etc, DPS parsers are invaluable...

I ran tests in A3 normal before. I can do around 1100-ish on a nice, clean clear on my DRG with my current gear. With full law gear (+190 belt, 190 ring) and the 180 spear, I did around 850. The vast majority of pug-goons in DF do sub-800. Very rarely will I see one i195+ who will crest 900. Even rarer was the one time I encountered a DRG with gear about on par with mine (my sheet said his was a handful above me in weight) who ended ~50 below me (that was the time I was GOING to test Law gear but couldn't turn down a challenge).

But like.

I'm of the firm, sturdy position that

Who cares if someone is doing sub-optimal dps if you have enough raid dps to clear the content? Stop worrying about other people being bads and just focus on playing the game the way you have the most fun. If you like big numbers like me, try to optimize. If you don't care and want to throw Piercing Talon at the boss because you like the animation, go for it. I sometimes try to offer advice to dragoons in dungeon runs who don't use Heavy Thrust or are doing other silly things, and they all become either hostile, obstinate, or just tell me to shut up and do my job, because I'm not a dragoon.

So.

Stop telling other people how to play, basically. Personal parsers on training dummies would be cool. I'd be down for that. But I'd never want to see active parsers in-game during instances.


People who kick people from pug groups in trash content that doesn't matter (dungeons, 24-man raids, Alex normal, any old level 50 content) because of their suboptimal dps are assholes.

Bottom line. :T

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Originally Posted by Zetor

Yea, public DPS parsers are kinda worthless in content that puts people of wildly different ilevels...

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That's exactly why DF parsers should not be exact and about who is doing how much damage, but only show who is over/underperforming, which would have to be calculated based on their item level, job and specific instance/encounter. Such basic indicator of performance would help new players a lot - especially it would help new tanks and healers, who have no idea how dps jobs should be played. When the tank or healer are underperforming you can see it clear as the day, so some sort of parser is needed to make things fair - Nothing like getting blamed for healing, when story mode garuda is almost one shotting undergeared tank, by monk who does not care enough to move for positionals... now when I think of it, there should also be item level indicator.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

Who cares if someone is doing sub-optimal dps if you have enough raid dps to clear the content? Stop worrying about other people being bads and just focus on playing the game the way you have the most fun.

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The other members of the party should not have to tolerate people who are going to be lazy and play sub-optimally no matter what content. If you're going to join in a group then put in your best effort to get things done just like how you want others to put in their fair share of work.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

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If one doesn't care and are doing dps so bad that dps checks on the easier content aren't passed unless carried, and on top of that they say something like "dont tell me how to play" when confronted, then they need to play single player games where they can do whatever whenever whereever(insert shakira). Or craft.

I can tolerate sub-optimal (realistically relatively few are going to be doing optimal) but I can't take deliberately bad.

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Originally Posted by DGladius

The other members of the party should not have to tolerate people who are going to be lazy and play sub-optimally no matter what content. If you're going to join in a group then put in your best effort to get things done just like how you want others to put in their fair share of work.

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Laziness is one thing. I can't stand people who say "I wasn't trying" when you point out how low their numbers were. It's either an excuse because they don't wanna admit they're not good or it's them admitting that they don't care about anyone else's time. Yeah. I get pissed at that, too.

But I've run with players who do their best, try really hard, and are still far below the bars that I set with the tests I ran. Dragoons in 190+ parsing sub-800 where I can do over 800 in 180. I don't give them shit or tell them to get good. I play my paladin, run Sword Oath, and do my job and have a blast playing with them because they're all fun people who are having fun playing a video game together with other people who are having fun playing a video game.

That's my argument.

It's a game. It's designed for people to have fun. If you kill the boss, why are you still going to be an ass to the person who did 50% what they could have done? Who are you to sit there on your high horse and say that person ISN'T doing their best? What if their best isn't YOUR best and you're just projecting, expecting them to put up what YOU can do simply because, hey, it's possible?

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

If one doesn't care and are doing dps so bad that dps checks on the easier content aren't passed unless carried, and on top of that they say something like "dont tell me how to play" when confronted, then they need to play single player games where they can do whatever whenever whereever(insert shakira). Or craft.

I can tolerate sub-optimal (realistically relatively few are going to be doing optimal) but I can't take deliberately bad.

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Those people really annoy me, too. The people who are bad and then refuse all sorts of criticism really annoy me.




Excuse my language as I make more general points below, please.


For fuck's sake. Stop worrying about everyone else. You're not raiding Alexander Savage with these people. None of the content you run in Duty Finder requires your party to pump out 1000-1500 dps (each) against the bosses. Why is everyone so concerned with what other people do?

It's something that really irks me about a lot of people. The elitist mentality of "You need to be X good or else fuck off" is really rude, really off-putting, and is more likely to cause a player to get pissy and report you than it is to make that player become introspective and attempt to improve how they play the game. Because. They should. Since YOU NOT THEM were the asshole.

But that's... really the issue. Everyone sits here on their high horse with parse numbers and gets offended when someone else is simply not good at their class or even worse still learning their class OR... AND THIS IS THE WORST ONE OF ALL, APPARENTLY: People are pissed off that someone enjoys the game in a way other than maximizing every class they play at all times in all content.



I'll reiterate, since everyone seems to have skipped over the actual point I'm getting to in order to cherrypick my arguments:

This is a video game. Stop being an asshole and let people play the way that they get the most enjoyment out of it. The worst thing that's gonna happen to you due to the dps being bad is it'll take an extra 1-2 minutes of your time to get a clear. Seriously take a step back and assess yourselves. Is that really THAT big of an issue to outwardly insult people and make them feel like shit? Because you spent extra time dealing with an instance than you would have if you just teamed up with your elite friends?

Like. Why do you have to be a dick? Honestly, what does it get for you? What does it do for you that it's so important you tell someone how shit they are?

1-2 extra minutes? try 10-20 in dungeons where the dps are doing sub 300 dps in 50+ dungeons and im the top dps as a pld in sword oath. no one, in any 50+ dungeon should be parsing under 300 on a boss fight. yet a large % of players i come across are (50%?). there needs to be some standard to hold people accountable to.

I consistently do the same, even at 60 with my Paladin. I generally just laugh it off and share the results with close friends, since it never results in wipes and I don't even notice the extra 10-20 minutes it adds to the run, because I never run such dungeons when something time-sensitive is too close.

Why do you feel there needs to be some standard? I don't really see how it's honestly that big of a deal. If you only have 15-20 minutes for a dungeon run that you're gonna DF, you should either not use DF or just not run the dungeon right now. Like. It comes across as being really entitled when you whine about 10-20 minutes more time being spent on something. If you get that offended by other players not being amazing, you should probably play single player games or exclusively play with your friends you know will do well.


Yeah, I'd like to see SOMETHING in place to teach people how to play their classes, because there's absolutely no system in-place in the game right now to facilitate that, but the reason SE doesn't implement parsers into the game is because of exactly what's happening here. They don't care if you use one unless you're a dick about it. This thread is proving that they shouldn't ever implement something like that, because it's only going to lead to MORE vitriol being thrown at people who play sub-optimally.


But I really enjoy how the above reply, again, ignored my entire point.

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Originally Posted by sackm

1-2 extra minutes? try 10-20 in dungeons where the dps are doing sub 300 dps in 50+ dungeons and im the top dps as a pld in sword oath. no one, in any 50+ dungeon should be parsing under 300 on a boss fight. yet a large % of players i come across are (50%?). there needs to be some standard to hold people accountable to.

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in 60s yea, but in 50s the synch down do make 300 an average (good).

I sort of wish you could still whisper people in instanced duties. I really don't be that guy and put one dps on the spot because they are underperforming. If a tank or healer is bad, it is usually easy to correct them in these fights. Tank, save your cds for this part. Healers, aoe after this part. But if you tell a DPS he is doing too low of a DPS then..what is he going to do? He can't magically improve just because you told him he's underperforming.

People on my server are generally nice even in times where it probably isn't warranted. Like people joining for AS1 learning and being unable to make it past Faust because of the monk with a i200 weapon pulling out 950DPS. After every wipe there would be a silence despite most likely half the group having parsers. They would rather just wipe, wipe and disband. Rarely is the underperforming DPS kicked and replaced.

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

in 60s yea, but in 50s the synch down do make 300 an average (good).

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300 DPS at 50 sync is pretty bad. Not horrible, but bad.

The only problem with parsers is that not enough people are using them.

PS4 = no Parser

might be one of the reasons

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Originally Posted by Coatl

They would rather just wipe, wipe and disband. Rarely is the underperforming DPS kicked and replaced.

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There's a stark difference between non-content such as dungeons or the normal version of Alexander and going into Savage. In Savage, even with current gear, the DPS need to at least know how to play their class. If they don't, you can - and should - call them on it. Alexander Savage is not designed for the less-hardcore players who "don't try" in things or are simply lolling around having fun. You need to actually play well to clear. That's a situation where you SHOULD mention it. I still tend not to point out the one person specifically, though, I'll mention "the dps is low." And if someone asks, I'll clarify. I can usually tell things like that even without a parser running.

If you hit enrage on Faust, for example, your dps suck. No way around that. I've run it with pugs, pulling 1400 Faust-only with my dragoon and seeing enrage. One good dps can't carry 3 average ones through content where your dps actually matters.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

There's a stark difference between non-content such as dungeons or the normal version of Alexander and going into Savage. In Savage, even with current gear, the DPS need to at least know how to play their class. If they don't, you can - and should - call them on it. Alexander Savage is not designed for the less-hardcore players who "don't try" in things or are simply lolling around having fun. You need to actually play well to clear. That's a situation where you SHOULD mention it. I still tend not to point out the one person specifically, though, I'll mention "the dps is low." And if someone asks, I'll clarify. I can usually tell things like that even without a parser running.

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Since you've brought this up:
1) How do you pinpoint where the problem is? You mentioned one good DPS can't carry three. But for certain content, three DPS can't carry even one.
2) How do you plan to prove someone (or two of them) is/are the problem? You mentioned that "you can tell". Exactly how? Enmity bar? The only job out there without an enmity reducer would be monk. Every other DPS job has something that affects enmity. The enmity bar is also rather limited, especially if the main tank's going all in on enmity generation, making other player's enmity bar as large as 5 pixels.*
3) How can other players on DPS roles know they're performing well or not without a parser?
4) If said players are supposed to find a guide to "perform well", what makes that guide credible if no parser is involved during the creation of it?

* Objective answer, "gut feeling" is not a valid answer.

I don't like to post on here or generally associate with people on here because of well... threads like this, but I was sent this from a friend for the pure amusement and I want to fully understand the mindset of the players that don't want to do their basic rotation or choose to perform badly. I get people say that parsers are bad because people play the way they want to. I WOULD understand that fully if this was a single-player game, but this is a game with people that work as a team. As a team based game you would be dragging others down by your bad performance and the players that your are dragging down will have to make up for your, "I wanna play how I wanna play" mindset. Isn't that harassment? Don't you care about how you are making others work harder because you don't care? I am not saying you need to min/max yourself but to do the basics. Like not having on the wrong accessories, a dragoon with no heavy thrust or just spamming the full thrust combo, a war spamming butcher's block, a whm that thinks cure III is the biggest heal, a blm that never does fire III, not doing your positionals, and you get the idea. This mindset has been pressed upon people to the point that correcting someone is harassment or just being an, "elitist." And all those examples that I have listed are just of a few of what I have experienced. I understand people are new, but I am talking about the people in Alexander that have had this game for months and months and still don't know how to play their class. So why is this accepted? And yes I fully approve of parsers being in the game so people can at least see themselves compared to others.

TL;DR: Why is it okay to perform badly and bad for others to correct you?

Okay.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Since you've brought this up:
1) How do you pinpoint where the problem is? You mentioned one good DPS can't carry three. But for certain content, three DPS can't carry even one.

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If the problem is in DPS, it's readily apparent by the fact you hit enrage.

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2) How do you plan to prove someone (or two of them) is/are the problem? You mentioned that "you can tell". Exactly how? Enmity bar? The only job out there without an enmity reducer would be monk. Every other DPS job has something that affects enmity. The enmity bar is also rather limited, especially if the main tank's going all in on enmity generation, making other player's enmity bar as large as 5 pixels.*

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You can tell by certain skill animations being seen or not. I raid with MNK/MCH/SMN. I know what I'm supposed to see on Faust with those three, at least. Generally I'll give it one run where I don't bother paying attention to others. If there's a problem, I'll watch. A bad MNK will sit on one side for far too long; they're clearly missing positionals or even skipping buffs entirely. You can see most of their main ones just in the party list (TwS and FoF) and the dots on the boss itself. SMN and SCH are easy to notice, because there should be 2 instances of each debuff up at all times on the boss. If there aren't, one or both aren't doing their job proper. BLM you have to actually watch the party list, so it's a little more difficult; gotta see Enochian not falling off, see them cycling fire then ice, etc. The rotation is complex, but simple. If Enochian drops off against Faust, they're clearly doing things wrong. It's a dummy. Bards are EASY to tell just by enmity list, as are MCH. Both of them SHOULD crap out INSANE enmity on the opener, even with Quelling Strikes activated - it's why they should be using it.

These are all general "feelings" if you will, but the overall point I was making was more about raid dps and less about individual classes. It's really easy to notice if a boss is dying considerably slowly, when I've done the content to death. I know my rotation. If I'm going for too long, I can tell.

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3) How can other players on DPS roles know they're performing well or not without a parser?

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That's an issue with the game's design, yes. There's no positive feedback loop for performing well with DPS classes. Yeah, as Machinist, you'll see that HUGE hit on Wildfire or Bard will see that big Empyreal Arrow. Hitting 5k crits on Full Thrust as Dragoon feels SO GOOD. But none of that translates ~at all~ to how you're performing. Everyone can make big hits happen. Very few people can have that carry through an encounter.

I think the game should have personal parsers for Striking Dummies. I definitely definitely think so. In instances, though? If it's anything other than a PERSONAL meter to show YOU how YOU performed in the encounter, I disagree with it. Completely. It's nobody else's business how someone else is doing. It's not your job to tell someone they suck, it's their job to seek help to get better.*

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4) If said players are supposed to find a guide to "perform well", what makes that guide credible if no parser is involved during the creation of it?

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99% of things in most guides to playing classes can be reasoned out and calculated mathematically given the numbers provided by the game. Optimal rotations can be calculated off potency amounts. Simple testing shows us that potencies are essentially percentages. Your auto attack is ~100 potency if you compare it against your other skills and their potencies. Due to this, you can easily assume that potency directly correlates to damage output. If you produce a rotation that spits out maximum potency per gcd, you've similarly discovered a rotation that spits out maximum damage per gcd.

You don't need a parser to do that math. The only time a parser is really employed is when discerning best in slot sets, since stat weights require rigorous testing to discover damage formulae - and even then the parser is just there to make number gathering a bit easier, I feel. You can similarly just record it and add up all the damage ticks, divide by the time and boom done. It's just more time consuming that way.


I personally created this guide for playing Dragoon a while back without employing a parser in any part of it; it's a result of my own trial and error in playing the class, alongside calculations I made like those I described above (and then a few tips pointed out to me by others that I hadn't discovered yet). Would you say my guide isn't credible?



*//EDIT: That is to say: Once a feedback loop exists where players can see their own personal damage/dps scores in an instance, it's possible to then DISCUSS it with other players. Talking to other players of your class to be like "Hey, I did 700 dps in Alex 1 today. How are you doing?" if the person responds with a higher number, the lower number person can either attribute it to gear or them lacking in certain skills. It opens dialogues about the classes and how to play them in-game without use of third-party programs. THAT is a change I would like to see. I would never want to see it where people start laughing at the poor newbie NIN who is struggling to maintain 600 dps in standstill because of the complicated dance that is their rotation. Once they see that they're doing worse than others of the same class, they can seek to improve. Being TOLD they suck isn't gonna help. It'll just make them feel worse. x:

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Originally Posted by JackFross

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Well, that's quite a wall of text. I'll just respond in a more compact form :P

The problem with your arguments on 1, 2 and 3 would be "feeling", which you admitted to it that it's all "personal feeling". I have my doubts whether observing every single player in the DPS seat, looking at their rotation/animation order, doing your own job while watching the field is... feasible. If anything, it's all "paper chemistry". While it's true on paper, it does not (always) apply in practice. Even if it does, it's only true for a very selective individuals who somehow can keep an eye on the animation (order) of 4 players in addition to their own role while also observing and responding to the playing field.

Here's another thing about "personal feeling"; it's not a valid reason to elaborate why someone's performing poorly. You're all for personal parsers, but here's one flaw in it: It doesn't work or make a difference. This leads to two cases:
Case 1 being denial. If no one has access to your numbers, what is preventing you from hiding it?
Case 2 would be drawing conclusions. If your numbers are fine, there's no reason to hide it. If someone would hide it after all, the logical conclusion would be that their numbers are terrible. (let's just go for pure DPS numbers for now, rather than in depth information like skill rotation)
Ergo: Regardless of a parser being public or private, it would hardly make a difference.

There's a possibility of case 3 where multiple players would hide their data. This would actually be the worst as rather than eliminating the weakest link, the entire group is more likely to break apart and unable to achieve the common goal they have gathered for. Even if majority of the group is perfectly capable.

As for your guide, you mentioned you used "math". I think it's safe to assume you've used a program to help you do that. So how exactly would this be different from parsers? Parsers simply simplify it for this sole reason. It does add one benefit. Namely numbers. Numbers are much easier to grasp for the guide's effectiveness, rather than a "theoretical guide". Without the end result (the numbers), how could you prove your guide's better, if not just as effective, as another guide?

There's one particular thing about the whole personal parser or public parser "discussion". This "fear" without base for being alienated because you're doing poorly. But isn't this exactly what parsers should be for? Improving yourself.

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Originally Posted by Animosite

TL;DR: Why is it okay to perform badly and bad for others to correct you?

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B/c feelings Animosite...b/c feelings. Someone playing bad we should just take it and carry. We want someone to play good or point out mistakes oh no now we're Lahabrea reincarnated.

I can definitely see the case for public parsers, with the problems you outlined. I just have seen/witnessed SE's official stance on parsing programs to be that, while they're against the ToS, they don't REALLY police it too tightly unless you start to be a dick about it. When you start excluding people from content because they're doing low dps, you're being a dick - you're using information gleaned from a rule-breaking program to harass another player.

That's not cool.

And that's the primary reason I don't really want to see something like a public parser implemented. It would essentially legalize bullying another member because they're not pulling their weight. Do you honestly think the majority of the playerbase is going to say "Oh, try and do better next time" and explain/help that person learn the fight and improve? I'm fairly sure 90% of people would just drop the dude and pick up someone who already knows the fight and can clear it. People being able to see low DPS numbers in trials would cause so many vote kicks.

[[ Before anyone says "make a learning PF!!!" --- why should these people NOT be allowed to solo-queue in DF for old-as-dirt content and run it without knowing jack shit of how it works? Should they always be required to make a PF with people on their server to clear storyline encounters just so they can reach 60 and play the new stuff? That seems silly to suggest. ]]

Yeah, this is an unbased fear because parsers exist and it hasn't happened, but... if you do that RIGHT NOW, and are reported for harassment, you can get in MAJOR trouble if the person mentions you parsed and kicked them for low performance. :T If a parser is implemented in-game, that rule would be so gray and it just wouldn't breed a very... cohesive/friendly environment. And that's my issue with it.


I see both sides of the argument.

On the one hand, we do need an official way of measuring DPS so players who don't have access to parsing programs can self-evaluate and improve. This is good.

On the other hand, introducing a means of measuring DPS could essentially legalize bullying players who aren't optimal. This is bad.

I'm not sure which side is more important. A friendly, accepting community or a community with higher parity in the playerbase. Personally, I love the friendly atmosphere of the server I play on. It's a more casual place, with a handful of hardcore/elite players (whom I generally enlist to run important content with me). I love playing with the people in my free company, even if they're not out there pushing top DPS numbers and breaking records. It's a video game and it's designed for people to have fun playing it. I really can't agree that it's fair for us to dictate HOW someone should play the game, even if that HOW they are CURRENTLY playing it is "wrong" due to the meta that YOU play by.



Yes, there is one optimal rotation for Dragoon. However, no, that does not mean there is only one way to play Dragoon.

That's basically my whole point I'm making, here, lol.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

And that's the primary reason I don't really want to see something like a public parser implemented. It would essentially legalize bullying another member because they're not pulling their weight. Do you honestly think the majority of the playerbase is going to say "Oh, try and do better next time" and explain/help that person learn the fight and improve? I'm fairly sure 90% of people would just drop the dude and pick up someone who already knows the fight and can clear it. People being able to see low DPS numbers in trials would cause so many vote kicks.

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First of all allowing parsers does not mean allowing harassment. It would absolutely not "legalize bullying" in any way shape or form. I know you late go on to say a parser would make the rules gray... but how so?

Even if it somehow did... The thing is, and sorry that I'm repeating myself a bit here, that this is not a hypothetical fear. Other MMOs have parsers, and this situation does not happen. We don't need to guess or assume what players would do, because these environments have existed now for well over a decade. We can draw on a huge well of experience, and that well of experience says that those situations are extreme outliers. They exist, but they're extremely rare. So no offense, but what you're "fairly sure 90% of people" would suddenly start doing is a bit paranoid. There is no evidence that people would change at all, and in fact there's a decent amount of evidence that that wouldn't be the case.

And really the people that care enough to do that will have already downloaded a parser by now and have already been doing it. The introduction of a parser will not make people suddenly start acting that way. MMO history points to the exact opposite. Most people will continue not caring whatsoever as long as you aren't getting them killed. At worst you might get a few more eyerolls in your direction.

If you're playing around casual players they aren't going to magically become elitist bullies because they looked at a parser. There is absolutely no evidence that that will happen. To be blunt, it's baseless fearmongering to think that the community as a whole will become worse because of a parser.

The issue is that there's currently a system in place where they can have the person punished if they kick someone for poor performance, because they are using third-party software that breaks the ToC. Unless they revise the ToC, the second a parsing system is in the game and those numbers are public to anyone in that instance, you lose that leverage. There would be no penalty for kicking someone because they suck.

Even if it wouldn't happen often, the fact that, if it DID happen, it would likely go unpunished and allow whoever did it to just do it again later with impunity is just kinda... not ideal?

It's not as black and white as people wanna make it seem, is all. I guess I'm harping on the minority cases when in general it'd be just fine. x:

1. Kicking after saying someone is dealing low dps (risk getting banned)

2. Kicking without saying anything.

Both will get some form of QQ and rage from the one kicked. Difference is that 1 of those may lead to something positive (self improvement) while the other does not.

Anyone with a grasp of the TOS will choose choice no.2 because it is not worth it risking a ban to aid in another's improvement.

Kicking due to bad performance was a thing, is a thing and will continue to be a thing in this game regardless of parsers.

If 1/10 groups kick a player, the problem was the group. If 9/10 groups kick a player, its the player.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

Yes, there is one optimal rotation for Dragoon. However, no, that does not mean there is only one way to play Dragoon.

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And there lies the difference between playing sub-optimally and deliberately playing bad because you don't care. The DRG could be both missing positional or randomly using their skills (not comboing), and as much as you can say "you're doing the wrong skills", you can't objectify or quantify that information without numbers. And this becomes frustrating when at least everyone in the party to know their class (or at least, not be carried) because even Buddha would not have the patience or acceptance for people who willingly (or willfully ignorantly) expect to do less spamming their 1-2-3 combo and still stay in the party. Especially if it's a farming one (where I'd be extremely anal about it, especially if you expect to have the same right to roll on the drops)

See but that's the point I'm getting to. It's not objectively "wrong" to play the class in a way that's not optimal. You can't make that claim. Even if their rotation doesn't match the ideal base rotation (which I would consider the skill floor of a class - any worse than that and you're barely even playing the class) it's still not technically a WRONG way to play. Could they do better? Yes. Should they do better? Absolutely.

This argument just has two parts:

In a DF group where you didn't choose your members, nobody should be so anal about perfection that they'll kick someone for playing differently/sub-optimally. It's rude to be willfully bad, yes. But it's Duty Finder. I don't know why people expect perfection from randoms who will never see you again.

In a PF group that's intending to clear difficult content or farm outdated content, you should be more than willing and ready to kick people out who aren't pulling their weight. And yes, for DPS, you NEED a parser to see that, definitively. I don't deny this.


The bottom line is people need to get their heads out of their asses and stop expecting DF players to be top of the line with top-level gear doing ace damage all the time. Yeah, some players just don't give a fuck and don't try in dungeons. Does that mean you should get your panties in a bunch and kick them? No. When I DF expert roulette on my dragoon, my runs are rarely longer than 20 minutes. Those times when I err on the side of 20 is when the tank pulls 300 or less and the other dps is 600 or so on bosses. I can't see how 20 minutes is really that much worse than 15 to the point you'd get openly pissed off about some dps not doing their job. Just do your job well and stop whining, basically. If you want faster runs, run with a premade party of people you know and stop using duty finder. :\

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Originally Posted by JackFross

The bottom line is people need to get their heads out of their asses and stop expecting DF players to be top of the line with top-level gear doing ace damage all the time.

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The contrary also applies, though.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

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And the other side is that you can't objectify or quantify the numbers that people who are deliberately playing bad. Like... if we're throwing out numbers, a DRG can spam heavy thrust and still collectively do around 600 dps. That's nowhere near optimal and would add maybe 5 minutes to a dungeon queue, but if you're doing worse than that and dipping around 300, you have to be doing something like spamming full thrust or alt-tabbng/netflixing during pulls. When a individual can't even be assed to do that little, numbers can help quantify that information. It probably won't change the fact they'd get kicked anyway, but that's just as much as in effect as changing the perspective of people who are overly anal about their dps (which goes back to this, even if they're playing sub optimally, they don't necessarily know because the information isn't quantified, nor can it be safely shared with the current ToS set in place_/

And this is the reason we need a parser ingame.

http://puu.sh/knUts/f0b318156d.png

http://puu.sh/knUNB/e7851ebe1f.png

Blue = pld
Red = bard
Green = healer

To hard to learn your job.

There's nothing wrong with parsers. If you're against then you probably suck and need to read your skill descriptions and invest some time into maximizing your jobs potential- otherwise you're wasting yours and your party's time. I can't wait for everyone to realize this. :( There shouldn't be a collective sigh of relief when things go smoothly- but that's almost always the case now.

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Originally Posted by Kemas

There's nothing wrong with parsers. If you're against then you probably suck and need to read your skill descriptions and invest some time into maximizing your jobs potential- otherwise you're wasting yours and your party's time. I can't wait for everyone to realize this. :( There shouldn't be a collective sigh of relief when things go smoothly- but that's almost always the case now.

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It has been mentioned that parsers are like guns. They may not kill people, yet they might kill paying customers - which imho is the main reason they are not supported yet. Btw. you are not wasting your time if you are having fun. When the most important thing is to finish the task as fast as possible, then the reward is more important than "fun" and that's completely different problem.

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Originally Posted by rappa

And this is the reason we need a parser ingame.

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I don't get it. What part of that demanded the use of a parser?