Why I Decided to Become an Elitist

For the op.
And I'm sorry if I'm saying something everyone else has already said but I feel like giving my two cents.

I don't have a problem with elitists. I don't have a problem with people wanting to excel and do their very best. However the described scenario on the first page of the OP's post is rarely the case, it is usually the opposite of that. Elistist type people getting bent out of shape because somone is trying to learn new content and they feel burdened because they have to "carry them". Well breaking news, ladies and gents. You're playing an MMO, you're going to run into people of different skill and experience levels. If that's a problem for you, there's an entire genre of games where you can play by yourself, or even only people you select.

Anyway... What I do have a problem with is rudeness and the toxic behavior exhibited, often by elitists toward new player or less experienced players as they attempt to learn content. Yes running an instance over and over again makes the content easy, FOR YOU. People just beginning to run or have only ran once or twice the content, it isn't easy, they're going to fuck up, they're going to die. It doesn't mean they're not putting in effort. That's the primary problem with the OP's post, is this assumption that if you're dying, or you make a mistake then you're just not trying and you're goofing off. You say that some people don't want superior players in their game (and you don't believe that) but what I do think you believe is you apparently don't want newer inexperienced players in your game.

Which is an utterly stupid stance to take if you wish this game to continue to be successful.

Personally the only time I ever watch videos the first time is if i know the fight will be complicated going in, if it is my first time doing something the very first thing i do upon entering the dungeon/ect is ask if there is anything I should do or watch out for then sit and read and re-read.

If i do something wrong i apologize and try harder, that is just how i play, and if i find myself dragging the party down no matter how hard i try i will excuse myself so they can find a rep /then/ go watch a video and try again. I like seeing things (cutscenes especially) for the first time when i am doing it myself

That said i have also never joined a party specifically demanding prior knowledge before because that is selfish and just isn't something that anyone should do, but to expect everyone to spoil their experience the very first time by watching other people do it can also be selfish

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Originally Posted by GenJoe

But... if you're lv 50, how CAN you not dodge a blaring red spot right under your feet? No explanation, the person is simply not paying attention or underestimating the effects of the aoe, thinking they could just soak it up.. Neither of which deserve advice, advice can't fix that, there's no secret to dodging aoe, just gotta stay focused.

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There are countless reasons. Healers mid-spell cast trying to keep a tank alive, thinking they'd have just enough time to escape. Lag spikes on your connection. What if the skill itself is NOT telegraphed and doesn't even have an AoE marker? Divebombs are a good example of that mechanic, and there are plenty of others.

Experienced players often forget that there's a lot to take in for some of the later fights. A lot of dodging required, some times you'll misjudge something, avoiding one AoE only to run into the path of another. Some AoE's are quite sizable too, meaning you have to already be moving when the skill is cast to dodge it. Not everything is black and white, and when people realise that mistakes are a natural part of learning it's much easier to forgive the odd error in judgment.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

From my perspective "elitist" and "good" are two different things.

When I am in a group with a good player they are usually quiet or they're helpful. If they see me goofing something up they'll offer advice in a non condescending way and I am always happy to listen since the insights of more experienced players are valuable. I've been playing this game for less than a month, I don't shun advice.

But then there are "elitists" as the internet has come to define them. They're also objectively good players but if they see me die to something their reaction is "Get good", "kick the mage" or "...seriously?" That's not helpful, that's antagonistic. Reactions like that just don't make us newbies feel very good about ourselves. Trust me when I say we don't like goofing up either.

I like to think that most people know the difference between these groups but it's human nature to remember negative experiences over neutral ones. There may be a knee-jerk reaction that comes over newer players when they see someone who is well geared and they just assume they'll be berated so they start snarling at the other players as a preemptive defense mechanism.

When I was playing a different MMO I was a high end raider and I dealt with sneering newcomers by being patient and kind. Sometimes they settled down sometimes not because some folks are just...well...obstinate jerks. Can't fix that.

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This. Couldn't have said it better myself, this is how I view it also.

A good in-game friend of mine, is a great player, whatever job he does, he soon is great at it.
But he is a very nice player, he helps others when they ask, and if he thinks someone did bad, he won't say it, or when asked, he will say it in very polite encouraging/advising way.

He learns me a lot, but sometimes it is bit discouraging, I do so my best, and still can't even be close to how good he is.
But I will keep trying, maybe if I do it enough my fingers become faster, and I click the wrong skills less :D

I have nothing against great players, but I have something against bad attitude.

I call it elitist, but we can give it an other name if people prefer that...

On the subject of knowing the fights before you go in.

DF = Anything goes, I have no control over the members, if they know the fight they know it, if it not well just gotta do what you can.
PF = You can control what type of group, you can ask for people with prior knowledge, clears, or just a learning party.

So in other words, if someone doesn't know the fight in DF you have no right to get annoyed, that's how it goes.
On the flip side, you have NO right to get annoyed if you are excluded from PF because someone requests you know the fight. That is their party, they are taking the time to make it they dictate who joins. You're always welcome to create your own PF for learning purposes.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

There are countless reasons. Healers mid-spell cast trying to keep a tank alive, thinking they'd have just enough time to escape. Lag spikes on your connection. What if the skill itself is NOT telegraphed and doesn't even have an AoE marker? Divebombs are a good example of that mechanic, and there are plenty of others.

Experienced players often forget that there's a lot to take in for some of the later fights. A lot of dodging required, some times you'll misjudge something, avoiding one AoE only to run into the path of another. Some AoE's are quite sizable too, meaning you have to already be moving when the skill is cast to dodge it. Not everything is black and white, and when people realise that mistakes are a natural part of learning it's much easier to forgive the odd error in judgment.

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Obviously, I'm referring to the AOEs that have the telegraphs... No amount of "advice" will help the person dodge that.. If they're lagging, too bad, can't teach'em how to account for the delay.
If they thought they'd have enough time, well now they know.. or at least "should" know.

What I'm saying is, there are many instances where the mistakes people make are so beyond correcting with a word of advice, that's when people no longer try the constructive criticism..

Sure, if it's a non-telegraphed aoe, then most people will explain the mechanics if you just ask.. in a learning party. Problem is some people think they know everything when clearly, they don't.. That gap is what causes the problems. In order to give advice, you have to have a receptive audience. Many cases, people are not receptive regardless of your delivery.
Some people are incapable of learning, and some people just REFUSE to learn other people's way of doing things.. In either case, if you belong in that group, stay out of the end-game raids, it's not for everybody.. I myself being one of them also, I stay out of the end-game raids.. I don't wanna put in the work and I sure as hell don't expect other people to carry me through them.

I suppose I'm the odd "elite" then since I think that those that are "elite" should help the less experienced, I mean the ones willing to learn, and pass on the knowledge and things they've learned to those that are learning (i.e. yesterday someone asked me to get on their mumble and give them healer tips for T13 since healing was a roadblock for their group). I say I'm odd because my whole FC and another LS say I have a "helping addiction" so I might have a higher tolerance than I others I guess. In other words those of higher skill should teach those that are willing to learn and not just seclude themselves to their cliques because you might be creating more "elite" players for you to play with. Just my opinion :)

Now I have run into those antagonistic "elitists" that people complain about. They always place all of their mistakes on others and never admit to their own mistakes and always call out and berate another in the party for a simple mistake. I would also say that the "inexperienced" players will sometimes (or most of the time) blame their mistakes on lag/"you didn't tell me this"/whatever manner of excuse they come up with. People need to learn to 1) admit their mistakes and 2) if they're new and they make a mistake, apologize if your group is upset and ask what you can do better next time if your confused. Now I am not by any means defending the people who go on the forums and complain about "elitists" but from my point of view it's the few vocal people who are giving the majority a bad rep.

Sorry if my post doesn't make sense, it's 3 AM -_-'

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Originally Posted by Ehr

I mean the ones willing to learn

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Key phrase: willing to learn.. Simple, unfortunate fact is that many are not and just come to the forums to complain about the difficulty and demand SE nerfs the content so they can finish it without putting in any effort. OR even worse, they try to sneak into farming groups and hope for a carry.

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Originally Posted by GenJoe

Key phrase: willing to learn.. Simple, unfortunate fact is that many are not and just come to the forums to complain about the difficulty and demand SE nerfs the content so they can finish it without putting in any effort. OR even worse, they try to sneak into farming groups and hope for a carry.

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All these clarifications(some of them still generalized and ignores the fact that important story content was behind things a large chunk of the playing audience could not see, a far cry from the main scenario) mean that people are getting caught in the crossfire of the hardcore/casual arguments. There is insufficient support from the community to allieve this issue; and some people even say they prefer the "salt", so people turned to the devs, and that is why fights were retuned, echo applied, and Alexander planned for both audiences. That is the design solution.

Do I think there is a community solution? Not really, as community is quite limited in its influence on each other. As much as we complain about the nameless "you people" that are supposedly behind killing our progress for the day, there will be others saying that its your fault instead or that the general situation "is what it is" or that we should buck up, because person B of Zalera isn't saying its a problem, and he has 2.5 kids.

We can individually choose not to endorse the behavior of our stereotypes, but trying to whitewash the experiences of others by misappropriation of an established term isn't going to sit well.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

All these clarifications(some of them still generalized and ignores the fact that important story content was behind things a large chunk of the playing audience could not see

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and if you'd played other MMOs, you would just accept that as the norm.. Which circles back to my earlier argument that majority of FF14 player base are first time MMO players and have different expectations.


It's unfortunate but what can you do? Implement the end-game raids in a manner that ANYBODY can just go in unprepared and beat it for story?
Or don't put ANY story behind the end-game raids at all?
I suppose a third solution exists for SE, to implement 2 different difficulties for each raid, but the lower difficulty version would have to give lower lvl loot, which will make the raid obsolete very fast.

There's no easy solution to please everybody. It's an MMO, people just have to come to grasps with the fact that they will likely not experience 100% of the content the game has to offer.

At least in this game, the old content will remain as is so you can always experience it later when the content becomes obsolete and nerfed. Don't have time/money for the relic quest all the way to zeta? Wait til 3.0, they're going to nerf that. Don't have the time/skills to clear final coils? Give it time and try when it's no longer relevant, likely after 3.0.

My suggestions may sound ridiculous, but so is expecting to clear end-game contents without putting in any specific effort.. If you're not willing to put in the time, you're not really in it for the challenge, so why not just wait until the challenge is gone? Story will still be around later, at least be glad that the World in FF14 remains the same after the expansion so you can always experience the old content at your own pace..

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Originally Posted by GenJoe

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As I said, there is a proposed solution in Alexander, multiple difficulties. Asking people to wait only works for so long, if they run out of patience, or sour on the game and who they play with, they are not going to be waiting for months/years.

As a former 1.0 player, I had a interest to know what happened during the calamity, that is why this raid in particular had my interest and how I eventually did not appreciate the way it was implemented. It may be different for other folks, but when a lot of things simply had to make way for the raid to come in, then be met with the sort of crowd raids attract, yeah, change was expected. Coil was not liked by enough people, so they wanted changes to make the next raid less restrictive to FCS, lses, and people in general.

Dancing around spoilers and benching ls members for months on end is not something to look forward to. Some got sick of it, some did something about it, but not everyone wants to, or have people willing to, go through it all over again.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

From my perspective "elitist" and "good" are two different things.

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I agree with that, however ''elitist'' isnt an internet defination. There have been elitists for many thousands of years. :p
In more recent history Nietzsche's ''Ubermensch'' is a good example. A lot of people thought he ment that ''people that are good at something'' are better then others (others are worthless).

When in fact his idea of Ubermensch is really the humanist point of view (human perspective > all = humans -> should aim at being the best).


So basically his Ubermensch idea = elite people being/becoming ''skilled'' so that they do have the right to have a ''greater perspective'', whereas the people thinking it means ''being better means the rest isnt worth as much'' (and who agree with that), are the elitists.



Being elite = glass is half full, aim to fill the rest so theres enough to drink. Being elitist = glass is half empty, got to make sure others wont drink so i will have enough for myself.


Incidentally, as far as helping others and being an elite goes:
-Elite will tend to feel like they have the responsibility for pretty much everything. So it's not that strange to expect them to help out.
Keep in mind that elites are people too, noone is perfect. This is a teamgame for the most part, so no single person can solo everything.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

This comes with a caveat. You have to actually present the advice as advice.

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I understand what you are saying, but I like to think I present in a proper way. An example, Turn 9 twisters. I'll tell them "With Twisters, one trick I was told is that if you have Twintania focus targetted, makes it easier to spot when she starts casting if you smacking the knights, that little trick helped me to get past it :)" Sometimes I'll get, "I'll try that thanks" Other times I'll get verbal abuse or ignored. The latter, no matter how you present advice, they won't take it.

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Originally Posted by GenJoe

I suppose a third solution exists for SE, to implement 2 different difficulties for each raid, but the lower difficulty version would have to give lower lvl loot, which will make the raid obsolete very fast.

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Actually, this IS a pretty good solution, and one that SE seems to be gearing up for with Alexander. Difficult and normal versions of the same raid, presumably covering the same storyline. Players who don't care for hardcore content or high level gear can work through the normal mode, while others who prefer the challenge and maxing out their characters can take on the difficult mode.

As for obsolescence, that's what Duty Finder and Roulettes are for. If Alexander Normal Mode truly is easy enough that most players can jump into Duty Finder and win, then creating a Roulette for it will keep it going LONG after the content has become obsolete.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

I agree with that, however ''elitist'' isnt an internet defination. There have been elitists for many thousands of years. :p
In more recent history Nietzsche's ''Ubermensch'' is a good example. A lot of people thought he ment that ''people that are good at something'' are better then others (others are worthless)..

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Quoting German thinkers not withstanding, I've been around far longer than the Internet, and can tell you that elitism and elitist have had negative connotations since long before the Internet or MMORPGs existed. Attempting to revise the meaning of these terms as some how positive is in my view intellectually dishonest. I can think of no time in recent human history where elitist was used as a compliment or as a positive term. Elitism as a practice is something associated with the ruling elite in Communist dictatorships..

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I've said this several times before in this topic, but it bears repeating; considering oneself to be elite is light years from actually being elite. Being elitist does not require or confer elite status. Being an elitist is a state of mind driven by ego not ability. Elite is a status or reputation conferred by others based on achievement or ability.

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It's also not entirely accurate in it's own right. On my server only 2.3% of the population has completed T13 as of the count put up on reddit a few weeks ago. I'm a member of that 2.3% since I was able to beat it before it went to party finder. On that objective measure I would definitely count myself in the Elite and I support that assertion with that statistic. But do however continue to make broad generalizations about people due to your negativity about their actual capabilities. Assumptions yo. Doesn't make you accurate to repeat it over and over. Kinda puts you into your own negative echo chamber. You've really been doing nothing here but arguing for continued prejudice in most of this thread. Does that make you feel good or something? To actively put people down? Do you think you're any better than the "elitists" you seem to hate? I don't think so.

You Kosmos have actively been one of the most negative people in this thread.

2.3%!? Get out you filthy casual! On my server only 1.7% beat t13. I'm like 35% more elite than you Tiggy!

Also, the definition of elite was considered superior by yourself OR others. You don't need a democratic vote to consider on self superior. But I still prefer the definition of objectively superior because that is a clear definition, not some fluffy opinion. If we race and I win, I'm objectively superior at running etc. 'Feeling' elite is what a lot of the insta rage quitting jerks do, or the WoD heroes that think they're gods gift to 14. They think themselves superior with no evidence to support that claim. If you want to belong to an elite class, better back it up with something real!

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

You Kosmos have actively been one of the most negative people in this thread.

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Tiggy,

When are you going to read what is written? with in the context that we are discussing this, elitism is NOT aspiring to be elite. Being elite is not the same as being elitist, or practising elitism. I am no more negative about elite players than I am myself. As far as I am concerned elite players, those who can down T13 and the like, are among the best players of this game, end of story.

But being elite doesn't make any of those people elitist, nor does it make them assholes. I've never said or suggested that it does, quite the opposite actually. The most negative thing I have said in this topic is that elitists are often assholes. That says NOTHING about elite players. If you can't understand that, I don't know how to help you.

That said, my definition of elite players extends beyond those who achieve a T13 clear, to me the truly elite players who are simply excellent players, have a good attitude, are helpful, fair and civil to all. Of course those elite players have the gear and achievements that go along with their skill. BTW, no need to check my lodestone profile, I absolutely do not consider myself among the elite players.

I will say it again for emphasis, elitism is not the state of being elite nor aspiring to be elite. Elitist is not the state of mind of being elite. Actually being elite is more or less mutually exclusive with being elitist or participating in elitism.

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Originally Posted by Anna_Lannis

No one is expecting you to help everyone at every waking moment. But don't join a DF party and then leave people hanging because you didn't get your instant gratification.

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People can leave a DF party at any time for any reason. DF doesn't have the same level of commitment that PF does-- if someone joins a PF, they are choosing to party with that particular group. DF is luck of the draw. I've seen people leave a DF party because they ended up in one with someone they didn't get along with. That's their right.

Joining DF with any sort of expectations about how a run is going to go is foolish. You have no idea who or what you're going to get and no control over it either. If that's what you want, make a PF, otherwise deal with what you get. What you get might be people who don't want to party with you.

Tiggy, where is kosmos being inaccurate? All you stated was your accomplishments, ego and how ones approaches others is what determines someone to be an elitist.

It is a state of arrogance, and its been used for years to describe a state of arrogance seen in MMO communities.

And just cause someone is called something doesn't mean its valid. How long do folks in a falling apart party know each other, a few minutes? I've had people making assumptions of my sexual preference by then. XD

It's an objective measure of accomplishment Kallera. It's a statistic that can be shown with numbers. Zero ego exists in statistics. See this is the problem. Even when you can show something objectively it's still all about ego to some people. You can't win anything with you people.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

It's an objective measure of accomplishment Kallera. It's a statistic that can be shown with numbers. Zero ego exists in statistics. See this is the problem. Even when you can show something objectively it's still all about ego to some people. You can't win anything with you people.

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Elitism is not an objective measure of accomplishment. It is a subjective perception of ego stemming from accomplishment. A person can act elitist one day and friendly the next, or instructive the day after.

Barack Obama could post in the 'what do you do for a living?' thread saying POTUS and someone would get all huffy about how that dude is just rubbing his ego in people's faces.

In a thread that has become a semantic fight over what elite and elitist mean, a raider says "I consider myself in the elite class because only 2.7% of the server beat fcob and I'm one of them as an objective measure of my status as elite", but that simple statement of fact used to back up an argument (about a definition) is taken as an egotistical attack. This is what we're talking about.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

But here on the internet, our success is apparently a direct attack on others who aren't as successful. I still blame the everyone gets a participation ribbon generation, but that's for another time.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Elitism is not an objective measure of accomplishment. It is a subjective perception of ego stemming from accomplishment. A person can act elitist one day and friendly the next, or instructive the day after.

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You are too close minded in your definition of elitist. It has been shown, by definition, that elitist itself does not have negativity by definition. Only through bias of the user is the word negative.

I can, statistically as I said above, say I'm elite. Simply knowing that I am, and believing the numbers to be true and confident that they are right, would make me elitist with zero ego about it and zero negative connotation. It's a belief about myself based purely in statistical facts.

But do continue to preach negativity. I'm sure pushing more prejudice into the word is good for everyone. All you are doing is projecting your personal bias on others. Do look up the definition of bias. You may find it enlightening.

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Originally Posted by Elmeron

And I think you are a rude elitist (yup, since this is what this thread is about, it describes you to a tee!). I don't learn the same as you and that makes me lazy and selfish? You are a jerk, plain and simple. Also, I don't want someone to explain everything to me. I said I learn better when someone is there to explain things to me. It's pretty pathetic that you throw out insults at people because they don't learn the same as you do.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the way you learn, and absolutely nothing wrong with the way I learn. Everyone learns differently, and if I have nice friends and an FC who are willing to help me learn in a way that is easiest for me, there's definitely nothing wrong with that. There is something wrong with judging others for not being able to learn the same way as you though.

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You are being dishonest...please link a video that uses language you can't understand for this game.....crickets. Please explain how knowing what is going to be cast, when it will be cast, the visual triggers and seeing a successful completion are not helpful? There is no way that seeing something successfully completed doesn't help. Describe to me to me why that wouldn't help at least a little, I want to understand. Some video are better than others, I usually watch more than one, now that I have watched some, I know who makes good ones and I watch those. Would you be interested in who makes the better ones?

It isn't like any of us who watch the videos go perform flawlessly every time. The encounter starts to slow down with every attempt, practice is certainly more important. However, the knowing what is going to happen when, can help prevent you from make stupid, easily avoidable mistakes, allowing you and your team to get deeper in your attempts sooner. Avoiding those early wipes allows you to practice the later mechanics more often and sooner before the timer goes out which is absolutely critical to a team of non experienced people having a shot at completing something like Titan EX before the timer runs out.

There is so much to be learned from watching videos. A very long time ago(years) I learned how bad/slow it was to use my keyboard to turn. I learned how slow mouse clicking abilities is, If you are looking at buttons it crushes your situational awareness. I learned how to design my HUD in such a way as to be able to see all the critical information in one spot without having to gaze all over the Screen(IE near where my chr is positioned) I learned the value of a multiple monitor setup. I learned how important it is to focus target the boss so I always know what and when it is using its abilities regardless of who I am healing or targeting. I could go on and on. What I am getting at is that there is so much to learn by seeing how others do things, I question whether you have even tried and just spout off "I learn differently " as a lame ass excuse.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

You are too close minded in your definition of elitist. It has been shown, by definition, that elitist itself does not have negativity by definition. Only through bias of the user is the word negative.

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Definition and the common use of a word are two very different things. I assure you that in an MMO when someone uses the word "elitist" 9 out of 10 times it is in a negative way. Heck, there are many "bad words" out there that by the dictionary definition are not bad, such as the word for a female dog, but when used in common language is very bad. Just because the definition is not bad does not mean that the common use is not bad.

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Originally Posted by Rendecrow

Definition and the common use of a word are two very different things. I assure you that in an MMO when someone uses the word "elitist" 9 out of 10 times it is in a negative way. Heck, there are many "bad words" out there that by the dictionary definition are not bad, such as the word for a female dog, but when used in common language is very bad. Just because the definition is not bad does not mean that the common use is not bad.

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The entire point is the "common usage" in this context is using the word with a specific bias attached to it. The word, by definition, carries no explicit bias and can, as the op is saying, be used in a non-negative manner. The bias itself is the problem. Not the meaning of the word elitist. The bias itself is a specific prejudice. Prejudice, historically, is awful. Anyone arguing for the continuation of this bias is simply propagating a negative prejudice. This does no good for anyone what-so-ever. We should always fight prejudice tooth and nail. Not roll over because that's just how things are. The only way to remove the prejudice is to take the word back just as the OP is trying to do. African American men took the N-word back generations ago. It is the exact same concept at play here.

Simply accepting the prejudice does nothing to fix it.

It's sad how many people in this thread are fighting tooth and nail to propagate a prejudiced world view. We as a species should be trying to overcome this. Not remain actively complacent in using words that divide us as a people. Prejudice is the tool of hate and the people who spread it the wielder of hate.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Barack Obama could post in the 'what do you do for a living?' thread saying POTUS and someone would get all huffy about how that dude is just rubbing his ego in people's faces.

In a thread that has become a semantic fight over what elite and elitist mean, a raider says "I consider myself in the elite class because only 2.7% of the server beat fcob and I'm one of them as an objective measure of my status as elite", but that simple statement of fact used to back up an argument (about a definition) is taken as an egotistical attack. This is what we're talking about.

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Ah yes, but would the President come here and make a long speech about how he is an Elitist, and that those in lower positions just don't try hard enough and want things handed to them, and proceed to drone on about all these exaggerated behaviors of those below him?

I can see that ending well. Much like this thread.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

The entire point is the "common usage" in this context is using the word with a specific bias attached to it. The word, by definition, carries no explicit bias and can, as the op is saying, be used in a non-negative manner. The bias itself is the problem. Not the meaning of the word elitist. The bias itself is a specific prejudice. Prejudice, historically, is awful. Anyone arguing for the continuation of this bias is simply propagating a negative prejudice. This does no good for anyone what-so-ever. We should always fight prejudice tooth and nail. Not roll over because that's just how things are. The only way to remove the prejudice is to take the word back just as the OP is trying to do. African American men took the N-word back generations ago. It is the exact same concept at play here.

Simply accepting the prejudice does nothing to fix it.

It's sad how many people in this thread are fighting tooth and nail to propagate a prejudiced world view. We as a species should be trying to overcome this. Not remain actively complacent in using words that divide us as a people. Prejudice is the tool of hate and the people who spread it the wielder of hate.

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It's a bit ridiculous to write off the common usage of a word in a very specific community. We are gamers, typing on a gaming forum, and I'm pretty sure you know how gamers typically use the term "elitist". What is all this fluff about fighting tooth and nail to propagate a prejudiced world view of a word? Good looooord. Whether or not you approve, this is the meaning that the community as a whole has chosen.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Ah yes, but would the President come here and make a long speech about how he is an Elitist, and that those in lower positions just don't try hard enough and want things handed to them, and proceed to drone on about all these exaggerated behaviors of those below him?

I can see that ending well. Much like this thread.

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Behind closed doors among the large campaign contributors, it would go quite well.. Even for a Democrat
For a Republican, I'm sure it goes even better.


Point is.. it's all about what audience you speak to.
What OP did is to make the case in a public forum where there's a mixture of people on both sides, that's why it's causing a stir.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

The entire point is the "common usage" in this context is using the word with a specific bias attached to it. The word, by definition, carries no explicit bias and can, as the op is saying, be used in a non-negative manner. The bias itself is the problem. Not the meaning of the word elitist.

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http://www.thefreedictionary.com/elitist
"Elitist or élitist
adjective
Characteristic of or resembling a snob:
snobbish, snobby.
Informal: high-hat, snooty, stuck-up, uppish, uppity.
noun
One who despises people or things regarded as inferior, especially because of social or intellectual pretension:
snob.
Informal: snoot.
The American Heritage® Roget's Thesaurus. Copyright © 2013, 2014 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved"


From https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism:

"The term elitism is also sometimes used to denote situations in which a group of people claiming to possess high abilities or simply an in-group or cadre grant themselves extra privileges at the expense of others. This form of elitism may be described as discrimination..."

Look, if I meet a person, and am convinced that they have seen more of the game than me, and they insist I do something i disagree with based solely on the gear that they have, what is that? Snobbish behavior.

If they say I should do something i disagree with or else a certain mechanic will kill me, that is not snobbish behavior.

And the very fact that you have to call it that way makes your comparison fall flat on its face.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Whether or not you approve, this is the meaning that the community as a whole has chosen.

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That doesn't make hate acceptable. That was literally the point of my last post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kallera

And the very fact that you have to call it the n-word makes your comparison fall flat on its face.

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It's called forum rules you fool. Do you really not grasp such a simple concept?

I get it though. You all love to spread hate around and you don't care whether you should or not. Go out in the world and continue to be the little hate mongers you are. I wash my hands of this hateful thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

That doesn't make hate acceptable. That was literally the point of my last post.

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Assigning a negative connotation to a word now equals hate? Language is constantly evolving. Words come and go, meanings change with different generations, it's how the world works.


And before more crazy comes out of this, I am referring to the use of the term elitist. And I could give other examples of common words that have changed throughout the years. Trying to make your point by comparing horribly racist terms to that of harmless (but negative) terms is just ridiculous.

Edit#2

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

It's like you literally ignore when I brought up the racist example a few posts ago.

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Honestly, I had missed the slur bit the first time around which is why I had edited my post. However I still think it's asinine to try and make your point regarding language evolution and possible bias by bringing up racial slurs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Assigning a negative connotation to a word now equals hate? Language is constantly evolving. Words come and go, meanings change with different generations, it's how the world works.

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Yes. Every. Single. Racist. Word. Ever.

It's like you literally ignore when I brought up the racist example a few posts ago.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

It's called forum rules you fool. Do you really not grasp such a simple concept?

I get it though. You all love to spread hate around and you don't care whether you should or not. Go out in the world and continue to be the little hate mongers you are. I wash my hands of this hateful thread.

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Why do you think the forum rules prohibit the spelling of the word?

Because its derogatory meaning is still accepted by and large as part of its usage.

Tiggy, if you don't like that people think that word is negative, then don't use it... But I'm not about to start pretending that the word has a positive/neutral meaning. Currently in our gaming culture it does not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

I get it though. You all love to spread hate around and you don't care whether you should or not. Go out in the world and continue to be the little hate mongers you are. I wash my hands of this hateful thread.

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Well that took a turn! lol.

I am now a hate monger because I refuse to accept a positive spin on Elitists. Very well.

Lol elitists.. most self-proclaimed elitists that I've met are arrogant, rude, and very anti-social, openly mocking or looking down on those who don't know every single detail about the game just because they're not on it 24/7, anyone that openly wants to use that title and looks down on others deserves all the scorn they get.

Usually, if you ask someone whether they thought the feudal system of the past was fine, where kings and queens had the power to literally do whatever the heck they wanted to the general population, while looking down on them and calling themselves superior, people usually condemn it. Funny, because eletists are the exact same thing.

It's an exclusively negative term. Good, experienced and constructive players don't feel the need for self-proclamation of their own significance. Truth to be told, you're nothing but an ant on the world map.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HexWeaver

Lol elitists.. most self-proclaimed elitists that I've met are arrogant, rude, and very anti-social, openly mocking or looking down on those who don't know every single detail about the game just because they're not on it 24/7, anyone that openly wants to use that title and looks down on others deserves all the scorn they get.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Imoye

Usually, if you ask someone whether they thought the feudal system of the past was fine, where kings and queens had the power to literally do whatever the heck they wanted to the general population, while looking down on them and calling themselves superior, people usually condemn it. Funny, because eletists are the exact same thing.

It's an exclusively negative term. Good, experienced and constructive players don't feel the need for self-proclamation of their own significance. Truth to be told, you're nothing but an ant on the world map.

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Funny, because in these two posts I see the same arrogance, rude, and hateful attitude they so openly speak against. Two wrong doesn't make a right. You are just as arrogant, rude, and hateful as the elitists that you talk down on. Discrimination is discrimination, it doesn't matter if you discriminates against those who are more or less accomplished in game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KyrsIsley

Funny, because in these two posts I see the same arrogance, rude, and hateful attitude they so openly speak against.. Two wrong doesn't make a right. You are just as arrogant, rude, and hateful as the elitists that you talk down on. Discrimination is discrimination, it doesn't matter if you discriminates against those who are more or less accomplished in game.

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I don't see anyone discriminating against elite players, hardcore players, casual players or any other players, though I do see people complaining about, and criticizing the behavior of elitists and elitism in general. Like some other posters in this topic, you need to separate "elite" from elitist and elitism. They are not the same.