Feedback: Feeling disappointed by 6.55's narrative, and thus unsure about Dawntrail

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Originally Posted by Ath192

We already touched on that, did you go back to reading the whole thread like I asked you to? If you don't answer yes I won't reply to you anymore.

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i did, and what you and user known as Denji had to say about it i still find assinine.

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Originally Posted by 4clubbedace

i did, and what you and user known as Denji had to say about it i still find assinine.

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Then you would know on page 3 the following was said:

"And reincarnation is a new life, not the same as before, your old life died.

Is it living when all your loved ones and memories are erased. If I wiped your brain to nothing and you were born again it's not really you, someone else just grew up in your stead. This is also a cloning argument, just because someone has the same source material doesn't mean a clone isn't a separate entity because of their experiences and recollections.

Emet Selch sure thought everyone was dead too. So they didn't think they were living TBH."

accompanied by a bunch of conversation of what constitutes killing.

I wouldn't say I am annoyed by any of the 6.55 MSQ but I do sort of agree with most of the points raised by the OP, albeit on a more "wait n see" level rather than throwing Dawntrail under the bus. IMO the WoL, after all that has happened would be EXTREMELY leery of coming down on one side of a political matchup, they might act modest but are quite aware of how heavily their steps fall, I definitely picked the "I don't want to get involved in politics" conversation option. The Thancred/Urianger thing was weird, I have always hated Urianger as a character, I've always hated the "I lied to you for your own benefit" or "I don't have time to explain" tropes and characters in any game. For him to just jump back in on the secrets would make me never trust him again. If we actually could control the party makeup a la single-player RPGs I'd ditch him from the Scions.

(Some of the other takes in this thread are a bit weird and extremist).

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Yes exactly, the solution was, hey we can't keep killing people if we kill everyone at once... nice.. All this to buy time for the sundered races to figure out Meteon???? And it was luck that they did, its not like there wasnt a moonship planned in case it failed?? like couldn't they just stay with zodiark to buy time until they figured out what the hell was causing the final days instead of sundering the world and letting other races figure it out?

It took us way longer to figure out dynamis than they would;ve taken, and BTW we only learned about dynamis because we traveled back in time to learn it from who? THEM. Just because they didn't have a solution at the beginning doesn't mean that they wouldn't have found one. Just like we didn't have a solution and found one.

Truly, its nonsensical.

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This argument hinges on too many assumptions:

1. That Venat didn't tell them about Meteion.
2. That telling them about Meteion would have certainly altered fate.
3. That anyone, including Venat, had the potential to alter fate regardless, given Elidibus established we can't.

Also Venat critics don't seem to understand that Sundering is theoretically the superior option because the goal was to preserve consciousness. Without that, nothing matters. Even if Zodiark only tempers and devours at a rate of 0.1% per day, the idea is that it would have outpaced consciousness. The idea the Ancients would have caught up to Meteion in however many hours, days, or weeks is just a guess and the story does not explore that. Once Zodiark dies, the Final Days come nearly immediately. The Lopporit situation has nothing to do with the Sundering not working. It is yet another contetingency plan for consciousness so that the chance to get to Meteion continues.

I'd also point out that if you actually read and believe the dialogue in this case, that this form of travel cannot change the flow of time (which is what Elidibus says, it's a law invoked so we can return to our timeline, too great of change would necessitate a divergence or alternate timeline situation) it actually does make sense. It's just fanservice.

As for right and wrong, how the story frames it, etc. I do not see how someone can be sober and conscious and play through 5.0 and 6.0 and leave with the idea what happened was the best possible outcome and not a tragic situation where neither side had the best time.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

This argument hinges on too many assumptions:

1. That Venat didn't tell them about Meteion.
2. That telling them about Meteion would have certainly altered fate.
3. That anyone, including Venat, had the potential to alter fate regardless, given Elidibus established we can't.

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That goes both ways, and Elidibus was not perfect so just because he assumes it cannot be altered doesn't make it true. You could also say we in-game altered our very own fate in game by what happened in the twinning.

"Based on the data logs we can conclude that Ironworks from the doomed timeline made use of Omega (traveling space), Alexander (traveling time), Allagan (crystal tower power source), and their own tech in order to build the Tycoon and get back to the past."

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Also Venat critics don't seem to understand that Sundering is theoretically the superior option because the goal was to preserve consciousness. Without that, nothing matters. Even if Zodiark only tempers and devours at a rate of 0.1% per day, the idea is that it would have outpaced consciousness. The idea the Ancients would have caught up to Meteion in however many hours, days, or weeks is just a guess and the story does not explore that.

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You do know what it does explore? The idea that we (not the ancients) would have caught up to Meteion in however many hours, days, or weeks despite spending centuries dying and being reborn over and over until someone figured it out from scratch, whereas the ancients already had more advanced intelligence and technology than we had, we had to develop all that and consult them in Elpis as to what Dynamis was. So they could've saved a whole lot of time by skipping the sundering and just work to find out how to permanently solve this while Zodiark held the world together.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

That goes both ways, and Elidibus was not perfect so just because he assumes it cannot be altered doesn't make it true. You could also say we in-game altered our very own fate in game by what happened in the twinning.

"Based on the data logs we can conclude that Ironworks from the doomed timeline made use of Omega (traveling space), Alexander (traveling time), Allagan (crystal tower power source), and their own tech in order to build the Tycoon and get back to the past."

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I'm not saying there aren't instances where it doesn't happen. I'm saying in this case, the writers purposely laid down a rule for this exact reason. Without it, you have to make the massive assumption that Venat and WoL are total morons who preserved the timeline for no reason. Moreover with the other instances you mention, you're looking at divergences and alternate timelines that don't occur with this case. They're working with a single timeline, a past that must lead up to the current present.

For example, in your scenario with no time rules:

- Venat tells them about Meteion and the star is saved.
-Our future changes.
-We arrived back in MSQ and everything is fine, there's no more conflict to solve.
-That's assuming it doesn't break our timeline entirely and doom it to nonexistence.

While this makes sense, it doesn't work because this is an MMORPG. The things you are saying, that the Ancients were smart and maybe could have done it, are valid but they are indeed assumptions.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I'm not saying there aren't instances where it doesn't happen. I'm saying in this case, the writers purposely laid down a rule for this exact reason. Without it, you have to make the massive assumption that Venat and WoL are total morons who preserved the timeline for no reason. Moreover with the other instances you mention, you're looking at divergences and alternate timelines that don't occur with this case. They're working with a single timeline, a past that must lead up to the current present.

For example, in your scenario with no time rules:

- Venat tells them about Meteion and the star is saved.
-Our future changes.
-We arrived back in MSQ and everything is fine, there's no more conflict to solve.

While this makes sense, it doesn't work because this is an MMORPG. The things you are saying, that the Ancients were smart and maybe could have done it, are valid but they are indeed assumptions.

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And there you go, giving rise to the moral ambiguity of it all. Case closed.

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Originally Posted by Swordsman

Yep, perfect example of the old saying: "Might makes right."

"Descriptively, it asserts that a society's view of right and wrong is determined by those in power, with a meaning similar to "History is written by the victors." That is, although all people have their personal ideas of the good, only those strong enough to overcome obstacles and enemies can put their ideas into effect, and spread their own standards to society at large."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Might_...e%20victors%22.

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btw, I have no idea why I spent the last 15 pages defending your point lmao. But I'm done. LOL. People will believe whatever they want to. And this applies to us as well.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

And there you go, giving rise to the moral ambiguity of it all. Case closed.

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It has nothing to do with morality. It has to do with sales and metacritic scores. Making the story about undoing the present by giving agency to Venat in the past is a story about Venat, not the WoL. They would need to use a branching timeline where Venat is operating independently in the past and creates an entirely new future. Our timeline would either need to splinter off into its own future where Meteion still exists, or collapse entirely.

The story even slaps you with this, twice, by telling you that the Elpis past is now joined with your present, ie what happens in it affects the flow of the time in the MSQ specifically.

And for what? To demonstrate some potentiality that the Ancients could have done it? This is just making XIV a story about what you want.

Regarding might vs right: I already addressed this. I do not see how you can be sober and conscious, play through 5.0 and 6.0, and leave with the idea that it was about Venat being "right". It was about the fact that what happened was tragic (5.0), and humanity got to a point where they could walk on their own, without gods (6.0),. That tends to be what FF is about in general. It's not just Zodiark that's dead but, Hydaelyn as well. The arc is over and it wasn't pleasant for either side. Yes, humanity is still alive but calling for alive == good /right and dead == bad/ evil is highly problematic. I don't think we should be interpreting the story as "humans won because they're alive" and I don't think 6.0 pushes that idea. 6.0 is just about having potential because you are alive, in general. If the story was cosmetically reversed and the Ancients were the main characters, the theme would be exactly the same.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

I'm assuming the contest will be like "first to find the gold McGuffin gets to rule" as I feel murdering the future queen's siblings and a former classmate of half the Scions would likely start that war we're supposedly supposed to be avoiding. Though that would be some grade A monkey's paw irony, "Sure, we'll put you on the throne, gonna have to murder your entire family though."

Wuk Lamat: BUT THIS IS A PIE EATING CONTEST?!

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Only one of the scions, not including ourselves, isn't from Sharlaya, which is another point of contention for me. There is next to no diversity among this cast, the people who were from outside of this city have all been sidelined or killed. It's also unlikely it will be outright murder, more like the dreaded "trial by combat" trope they've worn out where you will just have to beat the opponents.