Summoner is doing too much in 5.10

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I mean sure, but get rid of the Raise and it's mostly fine.

I'll bang this drum as much as I can. It's always been about the raise. The moment it gets taken out of the picture, it doesn't really matter if Black Mage isn't the top damage dealer. The crown's nice, sure, but that crown has changed heads so many times you really shouldn't look inside it. What matters is that they aren't obsolete, and that's what raise does.

It is a binary "Is/Isn't" obsolete switch. It needs to go, or it needs to be heavily adjusted and shared, or it needs something that provides enough of the same boon.

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I don't disagree. It would also give Red mage a niche all its own even if I know several who would despise the dreaded "rez mage" title. I suppose that's better than being trapped beneath Summoner's looming shadow. Regardless, axing Raise would lock Summoner in the Monk/Dragoon territory.

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Originally Posted by Nemekh

You must be remembering a different community altogether. Many smns and rdms complained in game, on social media, in discord servers. Many smns and rdms who switched to blm for the tier complained because it was that much better in damage (and feel of execution in the case of smn).

The job may be shining right now, but the brilliance is too much that it's going to blind people due to their own subjective definitions as to what counts as a balanced state for PvE DPS as a whole. Again while comparing the other casters vs BLM is important, that's not what the big picture is about right now. Especially with The Epic of Alexander (Ultimate) looming around the corner.

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Yes the summoner must be slightly nerf, but how many jobs were completely unbalanced on this game, it is an infinite wheel, the perfect balance does not exist with square enix who always repeats the same error,

and read some people the Summoner should be less strong than a Red Mage, or suffer a back return in the level of his 5.08 damage.

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Originally Posted by remiff

the perfect balance does not exist with square enix who always repeats the same error

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So, we should hold them to no expectations? We should just be okay with jobs becoming noncompetitive or quit? What's your actual argument here?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So, we should hold them to no expectations? We should just be okay with jobs becoming noncompetitive or quit? What's your actual argument here?

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Yeah I don't get him either. There's always improvements to be made.

It's what improvements and to what extent that rub shoulders.

How is black mage 'non-competitive' in the current patch, pray tell? Objectively speaking, it remains the #1 rdps job in the game which you can check for yourself right now. It's just 'only' 500-1000 dps ahead of summoner now, instead of 1000-1500. On e2, e3, and e4 you have to scroll down to almost the hundredth place, past a ton of blms, mnks, and sams, before you see the first summoner appear. E1 is the only outlier fight where they share the top of the leaderboard with blm, and that's because of padding with bane and phoenix gcds on the quad meteor orbs, and a killtime where the fight ends immediately after that.

If you're in a group that intends to do speedruns, blm isn't going anywhere. If smn enters the metagame for speed, it will be by replacing a melee or a range long before they enroach on blm.

If it's about being welcome in progression, I've already explained a few pages ago (here) why summoner is not the reason for black mage being shunned from groups. The real reason is outdated stereotypes about raid comps that assume having 2 melees is the 'standard' and that the 3 casters have to fight for 1 raid spot. Blm already does more rdps than any of the melees, a second addle is more than a fine replacement for feint (better even, since raids tend to skew magic heavy). We are no longer shackled to drg for ranged buffs, or nin for emnity control.

Tell me, what reason is there for a group to not replace a melee with a good blm? Thinking this is about rdm/smn vs blm alone is buying into a false dichotomy.

You will never be able to force people to willingly take a blm to prog by nerfing summoner and red mage. In the first place, trying to tear down your 'competition' is a lazy and underhanded approach. The sooner you realize it's the melees you need to justify your raid spot over, the better it will be.

There are a few other reasons I can venture as to why stereotypes about black mages have been slow to change, and they aren't commonly picked for groups. For one, it's hard to find good black mages because of how punishing mistakes are to their output. Due to their gameplay they also encourage (or attract) players that tend to be greedy at the cost of safety - not a good mindset to have in progression. And so what? All these are personal problems that have nothing to do with the other casters. If you insist on playing the all star quarterback dps role for your group, you had better be prepared to fill those boots because it is your responsibility to get good.

Well i guess it was fun while it lasted... At the his point SE will nerf SMN with all the people saying its too OP.

SMN is doing the amount of damage that its supposed to be doing for the amount of work that has to be put into it. So maybe just maybe people should actually for a change ask for the other 2 caster jobs to get adjustments and buffs.

its the overall average of Blm (not the 99s only)..., Blm is fell behind since 5.1 of all the top dps, even Drg..

with heavy movement it gets worse

its nothing like what Sam was in 5.0, ..Blm is still good, but for a zero utility its overall a bit behind

therefore, Smn seems overall fine (though as a class with rez, Smn is kind of strong..., almost too strong)..

still its leans more towords Blm not being fine (overall average dps) for not having utility

I love how you are all a bunch of professional game designers, designing jobs from the comfort of your own home. How about you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

If you're in a group that intends to do speedruns, blm isn't going anywhere. If smn enters the metagame for speed, it will be by replacing a melee or a range long before they enroach on blm.

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Not entirely sure about smn replacing a melee, but I mostly agree with you. BLM still is the top rdps job in the game in most scenarios and choosing to play it over smn should only be because of gameplay preference, not because it deals 10%+ more damange than its competitors.

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Originally Posted by RulerOfPotaoes

SMN is doing the amount of damage that its supposed to be doing for the amount of work that has to be put into it.

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There's nothing hard about the current iteration of smn. And jobs shouldn't be balance around their relative perceived difficulty anyway.