Something need to be done in how tanks acquiring Provoke

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Originally Posted by lvlagmarink

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Mreh, I got them mixed up, I'm sorry. (don't know why I thought Invigorate was a PUG skill o.o'''....)



I've actually had a few DF conversations on useful cross class skills, as well.

It usually came down to, "Do you have such-n-such skill?"
"No."
"It'll make you're life way easier with it, and here's why!"
"Okay, cool. Thanks."

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Originally Posted by Krazymagic

....If you want to be a sub par, or less than optimal tank sure. A tanks primary job is to hold threat. There will always be times leveling up where you need to grab instant threat on a mob. Either the dps goes crazy right at the start on the wrong mob, or an add shows up just as the healer blows a massive AOE heal, or if you die mid fight, but the healer swift cast and rez's you. Without provoke you will never get the mob back in a death scenario, unless the rest of the party also die to reset their threat.

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From DRK 30 to drk 60 I can't say I ever came into a situation where the party was ever in danger because I didn't have provoke. I think there was one time where I had to spend 1 extra rotation to gain Agro, but that didn't even put the party in danger

Face it, in standard 4 man dungeons/ and hm 50 trials, and even 50+ msq dungeons/trials you can easily never need it.

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Originally Posted by Lokier

All the lvl 1-30 classes should just lock, literally, after you hit 30. It would make players actually bother to level their cross-class, do their research and look at their new spells. You don't really need your lvl 1-30 class to level beyond that anyway, you end up over-riding it with your new main class...

Though, that *might* screw up POTD. :p

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If you don't have a job stone equipped PotD just assigns the "main" job automatically.
In fact, if you just cap classes at 30 and assign everything after that to the job stone you open up the option for branching jobs again. Which would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Bdyer

From DRK 30 to drk 60 I can't say I ever came into a situation where the party was ever in danger because I didn't have provoke. I think there was one time where I had to spend 1 extra rotation to gain Agro, but that didn't even put the party in danger

Face it, in standard 4 man dungeons/ and hm 50 trials, and even 50+ msq dungeons/trials you can easily never need it.

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While you are right on the reality of the situation, I think the general thought is that you should look at it like you would gathering/crafting success or HQ. If it's not 100%, you're probably going to fail. Likewise with Provoke, if there's even a remote chance that you'd need it to save a party from a wipe, then you "need" to have it.

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Originally Posted by Bdyer

From DRK 30 to drk 60 I can't say I ever came into a situation where the party was ever in danger because I didn't have provoke. I think there was one time where I had to spend 1 extra rotation to gain Agro, but that didn't even put the party in danger

Face it, in standard 4 man dungeons/ and hm 50 trials, and even 50+ msq dungeons/trials you can easily never need it.

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With the exception of split bosses or duties as not to need to overtake the other tank's enmity, any time you do not have provoke in an 8-man you should probably be playing a DPS or Healer instead. That's especially true for a DRK, who loses a lot more damage from levels 45 onward by using his enmity combo than the other two tanks do, making it that much more inefficient to swap by overtake (if MT threat—and all other sources—were low enough for that to even be possible). There just aren't enough split cleaves (Hydra) and the like wherein the OT can contribute via his mitigation without being targeted. And even many of those cheese fights did require a provoke early on, due to minimal ilvl raid-wide and yet inexperienced healers and dps. Mechanics are at the mercy of scalars.

And then there's the issue of how not having it, or not making it the expectation through and through, limits those content areas for tanks. Admittedly, none of us likely want to see a tank swap mechanic every single fight, least of all a forced one (rather than having the two tanks swap in with their CDs as they see fit). But burst enmity control or target-taking is one of the few mechanics that doesn't just role into percentage absorption / bonus eHP. Why not make it, and other identity components like it, a bigger thing wherever the result might well be more enjoyable?

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Originally Posted by lvlagmarink

So by your logics, all the tanks without provoke must've been plain lazy ignorants who want to be carried? Why is it that there are times that some of those tanks actually thanked me for the information being given even tho they felt sorry for themself.. Those memories of mine must've been a figment of my imagination, because by rights all those tanks are pure worthless players.. Is that right?

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I'm not talking about people that listen and learn. Do you even read full posts?
If someone actually is willing to listen to help and understands it, he'll fix it and it's not even a problem
The majority of bad tanks I play with respond to comments with defensive garbage

I'm not even sure how this is such a problem to begin with
is duty finder savage modes really this full of uninformed tanks?
Even the most difficult content outside of savage which would be gordian and midan normal modes, being able to tank swap is more just useful than necessary. It could all be healed through without issues when it was new content
and 24 man content just plain doesn't have swap mechanics

I read your full post, by extent your previous two posts in previous pages..

Despite your claim that you didn't oppose to the idea of changes, however your post can be summed up to these changes can be proved inefficient toward those ignorant players which actually was complete derp players you've encountered so far.. You even made that assumption in regards to an actual post in here saying so that it's a tedious task to do..

With how this discussion flow, people who con about the changes pointed out that players should figured things themself when it is seen obvious from skill windows, that's when the pros came up with the display solution.. By rights, if there are people who are made aware from the display windows and tooltip, there are more who will be made aware of in the future.. That's why i believe it's a good change despite it's not a 100% fix..

I believe i have yet to see A1 can be completed without provoke being utilised, but i believe this can be done with new gears in the future..

In my opinion, it shouldn't take someone a million attempts to do something specific for them to realize a skill is needed versus a skill that "makes things easier".

Back in the day, I used to argue that my WHM did not need Swiftcast because from beta phase on PS3 up to some months after that, I was successful at hard raises during battle. One Titan Ex battle saw me hard raising the SMN, then had to hard raise the WHM because the SMN did not have rose as the platform fell. There were many instances where I didn't need Swiftcast. When I finally decided to get it, life was grand.

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Originally Posted by Werhusky

I did T1 when recent on WAR without provoke *shame* in the 5th weekly I realised my accuracy was too low lol
The game is doable without voke and such but I agree that SOMETHING ingame should tell ppl to pick up crossclasses, maybe a possible crossclassabilities preview/recommendation.

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I've learned that it shouldn't take a million runs to realize that some skills are important. Playing that role is that SOMETHING that is telling folks to get those skills. Those are the same players who complain about the community telling them to get better. I also feel that if someone is on the same job/role constantly, they should get those cross-class skills regardless.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

If you ask me, the whole "You need to partially level another class you're probably not even interested in in order to not gimp your character." should go away.

It's simply un-fun, bad design.

People that defend the system while turning around and admitting "I didn't enjoy leveling... " boggle my mind. This is a game. We play for enjoyment. If the game makes us do stuff we don't enjoy that means the game FAILED on it's primary mission to provide fun.

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That's an opinionated statement, because I'm sure there is a high percentage of people who enjoy leveling more than raiding or doing other content.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Just like any other role in the game, people should give research and look up their classes/jobs they wish to play. Especially so on tanks, as they require more attention, experience and focus on handling fights in dungeons, trials and raids compared to the other roles.

If people don't understand how the tanks work or aren't willing to check for information about their role, then they will learn about it in duties the hard way.

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+1

I agree with you. I failed as a WHM, then BRD, then DRG, then NIN, then WAR, blah, blah, blah because I simply felt that I could "pick up and play" those jobs just off the tooltips alone. When your iLv230 NIN is only doing 900 dps, you KNOW it's a problem.

I'm a PLD, and I actually took time to research that job. Doing so, I can tank better and more comfortably than I can as DRK and WAR. Even today, I STILL am fascinated by researching PLD even if I read the same information over and over. I'm glad I did it. It took away from me spamming content for a bit, but it is worth it in the end.