Are we as players afraid of a challenge?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Naunet

All 4-man dungeons I ever participated in were laughably simple, and trials didn't put up much of a fight either.

---

I think part of what exacerbates the issue of 4 mans being laughably simple is that we outgear them so badly after a while. Once you are in raid tiered gear, you basically steamroll the dungeons without needing to put forth much effort into dodging anything.

I know that this might not sit well with everyone, but what if 4-mans were ilvl locked to something that kept the player in a range where they had to really pay attention or fail to do enough DPS/fail to keep the tank alive/die to ground targets? This wouldn't really solve the issue of the fights themselves being simplistic, but some of the heavensward 4-mans were actually rather involved, and having recently done some of them at the intended ilvl, I felt it kept me on my toes for most of the boss fights.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tolmos

I know that this might not sit well with everyone, but what if 4-mans were ilvl locked to somethin

---

i still wish arf was set to i200, i mean those tomes man. As far as difficulty in content? Until the entire system is changed especially the relic steps, it wont matter too entirely much' Raid gear? ugly af, and looks the same as story raid gear. Usuable in next raid? hell no that new dank primal weapon is what theyre going to use, for 3 weeks until they get that tome weapon. if dungeons were even more difficult since all they are is tome dispensers, theyd probably be dead because at end game people are either building up tome gear, powering up relics or gearing through raids with a boring stat allocation. Hell some even do hunts because its faster easier and less of a headache than dealing with dailies and the chance they may get a run thats entirely too long for their tastes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tolmos

I think part of what exacerbates the issue of 4 mans being laughably simple is that we outgear them so badly after a while. Once you are in raid tiered gear, you basically steamroll the dungeons without needing to put forth much effort into dodging anything.

I know that this might not sit well with everyone, but what if 4-mans were ilvl locked to something that kept the player in a range where they had to really pay attention or fail to do enough DPS/fail to keep the tank alive/die to ground targets?

---

As long as you left it an option, and the sync worked both ways (the more your gear is scaled down, the higher the reward – including daily bonus(?) – is scaled up) I doubt anyone would complain.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

As long as you left it an option, and the sync worked both ways (the more your gear is scaled down, the higher the reward – including daily bonus(?) – is scaled up) I doubt anyone would complain.

---

This ill agree on totally.

I'm a little concerned with how many comments point at the players themselves being the real challenge of the game. The duty finder as useful as it is has bred this type of culture.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jynx

The duty finder as useful as it is has bred this type of culture.

---

It would be more precise to say: It "supports" this type of culture.

There are people who would steal if they could do it without consequences and there are people who would not even if they could. Consequences for stealing do not make the prior group go away or change their culture, it merely changes their behaviour. They will still steal on every occasion where they can get away with it. And the duty finder does just that - it lets people get away. Or, more precisely, the people inside the duty finder let people get away with it. They could kick underperformers consistently, but they don't.

There are various sorts of players.
The more challenging, the more fun.
The more challenging, the more frustration.

Some like challenges of memorization, some like challenges of trial-and-error, some like challenges of reflexes, others of coordination & logistics or strategy & tactics.
This can take form in the method of acquiring the most gil/profitable business, min-maxing every last ounce of damage, solving lucrative spatial/logic puzzles, commanding multiple simultaneous mechanic features and devising a success strategy or manipulating social relationships to acquire power and status.

Some just like the routine and grind of doing the same thing over and over.

Some players can't do a challenge because they don't have the time available.

As far as I can see it, most people are complacent. Not many are risk-takers, overachievers or wanting to be challenged. Most like to be in their comfort zone, living the daily grind away. This is reflected in everyday life (live as a follower, stay low, don't cause trouble).

Out of how many people do you see in real life that exploit every opportunity and are perfectionistic/super-compelled to risk to learn more, to do more and execute more? Probably not a whole lot (unless you're a CEO).

If you want to find players that like to be challenged, you will have to look at the most competitive aspects of the game.
As with most MMOs, hardcore raiding/PvP/competitive mini-games are activities that merely a fractional portion of the playerbase are good at/like to participate in. These [activities] are arguably the most challenging content that the game has to offer in the primitive/non-existent AI era.


I don't think it's that players are afraid of the challenge, some just don't see the justification behind it if the rewards are so meager. If there were exclusive glamours, items or rewards of some sort, they might be incentivized to getting better and being more proficient. Some just hate being challenged altogether because it stresses them out too much and they can't handle the anxiety associated with being labelled as inept or having demonstrable repercussions on the team that lead others to be frustrated with them (which the overly sensitive would call toxic, and the less cynical, just untactful).

Someone that wants to be challenged would demonstrate virtues of self-improvement, efficiency and optimization or technical skill, power/dominance, be more achievement/status-orientated. If we're looking purely from the game's standpoint, this would fall under the "NT" and "SP" sub-group category under Keirsey's Temperament Sorter of specialization and preference. From modest reported numbers, this is around 23 - 34% of the population. Players, especially in MMOs are also more likely introverted then extroverted just by nature of self-selection of reducing environmental stimulus. This dwindles the percentage of all possible persons of having this virtue to 12 - 17% of the population. However, the "NT" group are statistically more likely to be involved in video games than other groups. A conservative estimate would be that 1 in 4 players that you meet in-game enjoy a [game] challenge simply because of the person's nature.

So if we assume that only 1/4 of players have the propensity and predilection to enjoy any sort of challenge, then you factor in that maybe less than half have the sufficient amount of time investment to acquire the level of skill and proficiency needed to overcome said challenge, you have less than 1 in 8 players that like a challenge and are able to overcome said challenge. Add in the factor of the rewards not justifying the effort invested, and you can easily see why most of these 'challenge'-tailored content only "excites" 1 in 10 players or less enough to even try said content.

Now if FFXIV were a MOBA or FPS, this would be a whole different story.

The solution I see is quite easy. A world that is hard, has specialized content that is adjusted to be a tad harder, and has leaderboards all around or performance records at the end of dungeon runs, and everything possible to enable people to overcome challenges one step at a time (whether that be replays or whatever). A second world like the current one, where you can turn on autopilot mode and enjoy the scenery of the game with all its goodies and no stress. Of course, this isn't feasible development wise, nor does it justify the financial numbers at the end of the day, but this would solve the 'challenge/hardcore/serious-orientated/do-your-best' vs 'non-challenge/casual/relax/just-try-don't-worry crowd' dichotomy that's been popping up every other thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jynx

I'm a little concerned with how many comments point at the players themselves being the real challenge of the game. The duty finder as useful as it is has bred this type of culture.

---

Or the amount of people who white knight SE, until they go away and SE actually puts forth effort, there really is no way this game will get better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jynx

The duty finder as useful as it is has bred this type of culture.

---

Maybe this is the case, or maybe not... but as someone who has been playing MMOs since '97, I can say that I do NOT miss the days before duty finder. Even nostalgia goggles do not make me remember the annoyance of herding cats more fondly than it was.

If I had to point to one Quality of Life feature that I consider a drastic improvement over the days of old, Dungeon Finders pretty much wins out. I can't tell you how many players, back in those days, simply didn't do any PvE outside of base grinding/leveling in the open world because of the frustration of putting together a party for a dungeon. Back then, it was all about the "solo player" vs "the raider". There was almost no inbetween. Now, thanks to dungeon finder, that line is blurred and more people are participating in content.

Sure, an argument could be made for why dungeoning should still be some sort of "elite club" for people with the patience to deal with that sort of time wasting, I can't say I fit in that camp. Personally, I enjoy being able to spend more time doing what I WANT to do in the game, vs standing around in town wasting 1 hour putting together a group for a 25 minute run.

What about adding solo difficulty option for dungeons? People not wanting challenge could do for exp/gear. This would perhaps mean those using DF were self-selecting for a challenge and would improve quality of parties.