DRG is unbalanced and desperately needs a buff.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

If you want to make substantiated claims, you gotta back it up. The onus is on the OP to provide evidence for the claims she makes. You're welcome to support her with the evidence if you wish. I want to see the numbers and incite others to do the same for the opposing arguments.

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You are welcome to take a look at this and this thread. People have posted enough parses there.
From my part, I can only say that because DRG and MNK don't have hate reducing skills, you can also look at the hate indicator.
I'm consistently 2nd on single target fights even with GL loss unless
a) there is another decent monk in the party
b) there is a brd/drg with better gear in the party.

I have also done runs where we purposely tried to steal hate off the tank during ak/wp runs and I stole it most of the time despite the DRG having the myth body.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

9 GCDs is a long time to be operating at a reduced DPS for hard-tuned content

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The buffer you build before losing GL3 is usually enough to still come up higher than the rest.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

From my part, I can only say that because DRG and MNK don't have hate reducing skills, you can also look at the hate indicator.

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Incorrect. Evasive Jump has hate reduction. ^^

And I've been doing turn 5 with my DRG just fine so far soo.. either way this thread is moot, SE has already said they're doing some re-balancing of the classes/jobs with 2.1

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Originally Posted by Ruethryl

Incorrect. Evasive Jump has hate reduction. ^^

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Ok, I'm not the person to talk about dragoons. But who uses Elusive Jump while DPSing? ^^

True there is usually little need for it, but occasionally it does have its uses.. as long as we're not talking Titan... ^^;;

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

Ok, I'm not the person to talk about dragoons. But who uses Elusive Jump while DPSing? ^^

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O/

Under two situations:

1. I cap threat on too many mobs at once to survive long enough to get taken back/healed.

2. I'm near-first on threat during a downtime moment in a fight (meaning I'm having to evade anyways, such as Ifrit's charge/plumes, Kimera's short range attack, etc.)

These are rare, however, as often I won't be second on hate list like I was consistently in 1.xx.

It's also good for fight re-positioning, if you can time it well.

Also, you did not provide a parse. You linked to a 55 page thread expecting me to do the work proving your argument for you. Yer going to have to provide it yourself or at the very least link directly to the parse. (Second link is broken, btw.)

Though, we might want to wait until 2.1 to do the Parses, as we're now arguing a moot point.

A lot of people like to make excuses for the average performance of a class by saying "They're just bad." And honestly, that's irrelevant to the average player. If the average encounter is beneath a Dragoon's average, than it's comparable. The only time where it's an issue worth raising is when Dragoon gets ostracized from content because of the difference, and I have hear of no cases of this at all.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

Ok, I'm not the person to talk about dragoons. But who uses Elusive Jump while DPSing? ^^

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There are a few times I hit threat cap in coil, the adds leading to ADS and aoe spider phases in T4, where I might elusive jump to drop threat and dive back in.

I do feel like dps as DRG is an uphill battle, partly because I play with great players and partly because if my 27 hit gets interrupted from spontaneous conditions I feel like I waste valuable time getting back on track since getting hit by cleaves/aoe isnt worth rushing back into fight.

Hey Monks this Drg says our Dots are not important... /lawl

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Originally Posted by Altena

It's actually 280 potency for Thunder 3..
The base damage for Thunder 3 goes upto 340 if you get a Thundercloud proc.
When that is the case, the total damage for Thunder 3 goes upto a staggering 620 potency? I am terrible at math..
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With a Thundercloud proc, yes.
Without, then no it is not.

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Well, you're right about being bad at math. ;)

Thunder 3 does 60 initial potency upon hit, and then has 8 ticks at 35 potency each. 60 + (8 * 35) = 340 potency.

Thundercloud procs add their full damage over time to their initial damage, and then apply the DoT. So Thundercloud procs do:

(8 * 35) + 60 + (8 * 35) = 620 potency.

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Well it is if you are speaking in raw potency, however Flare will only ever be used under Astral Fire- so the raw potency of Flare isn't very comparable at all.

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With 1 stack of Astral Fire, fire-based attacks will do 40% more damage. With 2 stacks, 60%. With 3 stacks of Astral Fire, fire-based attacks will do 80% more damage. So a fully buffed Flare cast with 3 stacks of Astral Fire has 488 potency.

And as I said before, it has a 4 second cast time and costs all the BLM's MP.

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Yes but you are missing my point. DoT's are pretty much the bread and butter of DRG's damage. If you don't maintain DoTs then you will do crap damage.. ...
The other classes however are less reliant on the damage from the actual DoT - and more reliant on the additional effects / procs that go with them.
MNK as mentioned earlier, is more focussed on lowering GCD so they can fit more skills in.
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Basically what I have been saying this whole time here: The primary focus / only thing you have to really pay attention to on DRG is keeping all buffs and DoT's up. The rest is simply filler.

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Again, the math says you're just wrong here. MNK gets a higher percentage of its damage from buffs and DoTs than DRG. MNK's buffs account for about 40% of its DPS. MNK has to re-apply its DoTs every 6 to 15 attacks (it varies depending on GCD and the DoT's duration). And MNK has to re-apply its buffs literally every 3-6 attacks. Many MNKs have to completely drop certain higher potency attacks from their rotation to make sure those buffs are always up.

And how does MNK lower its GCD? By getting its buffs up, and keeping them up. So the primary focus for MNK is getting your buffs/DoTs up, and keeping them up.

Yes, a MNK can drop DoTs from its rotation. But it's DPS is going to drop. And a MNK can drop buffs from its rotation, but its DPS is going to horrendous.

So your argument doesn't make any sense. You probably give more attention to keeping your DoTs/buffs up on DRG than the "filler" attacks. But that's not because most of your damage comes from keeping those DoTs/buffs up. It's because -- like every other class in the game -- getting those buffs and DoTs up and keeping them up is complicated.

You want to see some serious hair pulling? Start a thread in the MNK forums asking whether it's better to use Bootshine and True Strike. Better yet, ask a group of MNKs what skills they use after Perfect Balance. I don't think I've ever heard two MNKs that use the same skill rotation while Perfect Balance is up. Because it's so incredibly complicated that the community hasn't even arrived at one set answer.

The fact of the matter is that DRG's DoTs/buffs are no more important than other classes' DoTs/buffs. I honestly think you should play some end-game MNK, and see if you still think DRG's "bread and butter" are their DoTs and buffs.

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So wait a sec.. The only reason you bring a DRG is so you can buff 1 other player's damage? Never knew my role as the only 2 handed, "heavy" DPS class in the game just happened to turn into a support role for an Archer...

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I can only assume you're being intentionally dishonest here. The very next statement I provided a list of several reasons to include DRG other than buffing BRD damage. You apparently chose to ignore that list, and focus on one part of one statement. That's dishonest.

I never said that, I never implied that, and in fact it's the opposite of what I said. I can only assume you've given up on being constructive, and are trolling now. That's disappointing.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Also, you did not provide a parse. You linked to a 55 page thread expecting me to do the work proving your argument for you. Yer going to have to provide it yourself or at the very least link directly to the parse. (Second link is broken, btw.)

Though, we might want to wait until 2.1 to do the Parses, as we're now arguing a moot point.

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Yes I did not, simply because I'm paranoid about any kind of 3rd party programs made especially for the game. Sorry about the broken link.

Here are a couple of examples:
striking dummy (not really representative since it's a static enemy)
Titan parse (read whole post please)

Can see their equipment on the lodestone, so you could match yours to them and try to beat it. But I don't think that's a good comparison considering how different two runs could be. Maybe I'll convince myself to abandon my paranoia and do my own parse vs. a similarly geared DRG, but at the moment my subscription has run out and I'm not going to extend it until there is more stuff to do, and most importantly, they state their stance on EU lag/data center.