Does instant transportation effect game immersion?

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

And my bow.

Anyone getting deja vu? Sure I've heard this somewhere before...

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-moogle walks in-
moogle: and my pom pom
-room stares at it speechless-
moogle: what... pom poms are hardcore kupo
-room stares and it speechless-
-moogle dances, pom pom flies around and knocks everyone out-

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

And my bow.

Anyone getting deja vu? Sure I've heard this somewhere before...

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I am just a simple Ranger... http://youtu.be/1yqVD0swvWU

Wins every time

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...d4c19715154f30



in other words they added it temporarily while they fixed the system, and then never ended up fixing the system. It was never intended (and makes sense as such because it made the whole fishbotting + alchemy botting a viable option for gil)

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That was the old team as well and that same team that got canned from the project. Also that is just crystals and shards which no matter what you say having 999 is way better than 99.

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

Y'see, plenty of immersion in this game even with the teleport system. We go and find our own adventures.

In games like Warcraft there is no teleport system apart from the Hearthstone, but people never have these little stories to share like we get in FFXIV, because games like Warcraft give you so much easy 'here go and do this' stuff that you never feel like you have time to stop and smell the roses, or investigate that glowing thing off in the distance to see if there's anything there, so essentially although we spend more time running around and travelling in those kinds of games, it lacks immersion because it gives no reason for people to venture off the beaten track to see what's what.

In Final Fantasy games, both old and new, online and single-player, wandering around and ignoring the storyline for a few hours, or even days, can reap benefits you'd have never even realised, even if it's just a fun tale to tell people, it's still better than "Oh well y'know I spent all day questing, yeah I gained like, 5 levels, nothing interesting happened though."

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Warcraft had mage portals and summoning system, also what you said about exploring on that game is so far off base. There are millions of stories like you are trying to say and I can barely think of any in FFXIV because it is copy/paste environments and a dead world. Not trying to totally defend that game but if you are going to try to use another game as example don't lie to try to make this game look better. I actually believe I posted that on an earlier post using WoW as an example for the amazing transportation immersion that game has.

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

That's a whole lot of text o.o'

It makes my forum posts look tiny in comparison XD

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I'm thorough in my analyses. Unfortunately people don't read them. That's of no concern to me but I might start putting them in a *spoiler* text.

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Originally Posted by Dargoth_Draconia

That was the old team as well and that same team that got canned from the project. Also that is just crystals and shards which no matter what you say having 999 is way better than 99.

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Besides, is it really that big that we can have a 9999 stack instead of 10 999 stacks? Especially when they don't really take inventory space...

So nope, he is just whining that the game doesn't match the ideal FFXIV inside his head. Just a poor obsessive mind who can't sleep at night because somewhere someone is enjoying the game in a way he wouldn't.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

Besides, is it really that big that we can have a 9999 stack instead of 10 999 stacks? Especially when they don't really take inventory space...

So nope, he is just whining that the game doesn't match the ideal FFXIV inside his head. Just a poor obsessive mind who can't sleep at night because somewhere someone is enjoying the game in a way he wouldn't.

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actually it matters a lot. before you could get 999 and then you couldn't get more. that means that no one could alchemy bot overnight and wake up to 10,000 crystals and flood the market.

Look at the crystal market now, it fails.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

alchemy bot overnight and wake up to 10,000 crystals and flood the market

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interesting!

source?

:)

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Originally Posted by Ilean

interesting!

source?

:)

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crystal wards? go find the bots and watch them craft nearly 24/7 for weeks straight? search "botters" on this forum and read the countless threads bout it?

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

-moogle walks in-
moogle: and my pom pom
-room stares at it speechless-
moogle: what... pom poms are hardcore kupo
-room stares and it speechless-
-moogle dances, pom pom flies around and knocks everyone out-

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And my....

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

crystal wards? go find the bots and watch them craft nearly 24/7 for weeks straight? search "botters" on this forum and read the countless threads bout it?

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So any evidence? I've seen tons of "bot" videos but none that proves that they are botting.

So you would have shards/crystals go scarce just because you believe that some people bot them? lol!

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain < all sources cited
set + match

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quoting wikipedia = fail

quoting unrelated wikipedia page = double fail

you set+match'd yourself

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Originally Posted by Ilean

So any evidence? I've seen tons of "bot" videos but none that proves that they are botting.

So you would have shards/crystals go scarce just because you believe that some people bot them? lol!

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.... maybe the 100s of people that will openly admit to it? lol.

but no, your right, bots don't exist. They are a conspiracy that people made up to kill this game....

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

crystal wards? go find the bots and watch them craft nearly 24/7 for weeks straight? search "botters" on this forum and read the countless threads bout it?

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SE will ban them when it matters right now it doesn't so who cares? Not like gil is worth a crap at the moment anyways.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

So any evidence? I've seen tons of "bot" videos but none that proves that they are botting.

So you would have shards/crystals go scarce just because you believe that some people bot them? lol!

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while some botters are pretty obvious, such as a Ofuds Lsdhf sitting in front of the fish npc in LL for weeks at a time doing nothing but making wind shards, others are debatable. I myself have often missed chats while watching a movie while grinding crafts. Eitherway, making life unnecessarily difficult for every single crafters in the game because of the presence of botters is just not a very smart idea, especially when going back to the old system would just make things slightly inconvenient for the botters while increasing their profit margins as prices goes up.

IMO, the whole concept of limited inventory should be thrown out the window, burned to a crisp, and have its ashes shot out into space and dumped into the sun for good measure. Limited inventory for what a character can carry on person is fine, but limiting inventory space in your "home base", or the equivalent of such, serves little purpose other than as extra income for the dev. in the form of mules.

Maybe I'm just spoiled by Eve, I can have thousands of items that stacks trillions deep, and I can do that in hundreds and hundreds of different stations.

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Originally Posted by Aenarion

Eitherway, making life unnecessarily difficult for every single crafters in the game because of the presence of botters is just not a very smart idea, especially when going back to the old system would just make things slightly inconvenient for the botters while increasing their profit margins as prices goes up.

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Agree.

It's like the DRM effect. You inconvenience and screw over the legitimate customers without really solving the original issue.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

.... maybe the 100s of people that will openly admit to it? lol.

but no, your right, bots don't exist. They are a conspiracy that people made up to kill this game....

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I know right. I know so many people that bot, and they aren't shy about it.

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Originally Posted by Dargoth_Draconia

Warcraft had mage portals and summoning system, also what you said about exploring on that game is so far off base. There are millions of stories like you are trying to say and I can barely think of any in FFXIV because it is copy/paste environments and a dead world. Not trying to totally defend that game but if you are going to try to use another game as example don't lie to try to make this game look better. I actually believe I posted that on an earlier post using WoW as an example for the amazing transportation immersion that game has.

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Actually you have a point, I'd forgotten about mage and city portals, been a while since I played it. I still can't think of a single time in the whole 5 years I played it where I had a memorable experience in exploration, usually I just found myself running back to my corpse after bouncing off a cliff or something.

Also 90% of Warcraft enviroments was copy & paste too, ashenvale itself had at least 5 'caves' in it that were all completely identical, and caves in Teldrassil that were also identical to them too, and even ones added in Cataclysm. Same with the buildings.

Hard to find any MMO though that doesn't feature some form of copy&paste somewhere.

As it is though I wasn't lieing, I find this game more enjoyable, because it doesn't dictate what I have to do. I don't have to kill things, I can spend the time gathering, crafting or just exploring and admiring the surroundings. In Warcraft to see any real content I'd HAVE to kill stuff because I'd HAVE to gain levels so I can move into new zones to gather materials to craft. If I didn't every monster within a 15 mile radius would be chasing me.

As for barely thinking of any stories... plenty that people have posted in this forum, heck my linkshell has a thread on their forum devoted to letting everyone else in the LS know what adventures they'd recently been up to.

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

As for barely thinking of any stories... plenty that people have posted in this forum, heck my linkshell has a thread on their forum devoted to letting everyone else in the LS know what adventures they'd recently been up to.

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Apparently, no one is really having fun until they're completely unable to teleport anywhere. :rolleyes:

Chocobos and airships - me no need to teleports no mo'

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

Cite your sources. Then we'll talk. You'll have to show that your Immersion v. Spatial Presence is not an idea of your own and support it with outside sources in order to persuasively make me think that immersion can be objective. I also already read it when you posted it the first time. I just didn't buy it.

I also said that mechanics can be immersion, not necessarily that they always are. Pong can be immersive, the mechanic of a dot being bounced back and forth is the catalyst for the consumer's imagination. The level of immersion in Pong is defined by the player. They could choose to focus solely on the manipulation of their "paddle" to make sure the ball stays in play. They could choose to play defensively or offensively (taking immersion a step further). They could utilize a mixture of both in order to confuse their opponent (even further). They could even pretend the match was table tennis (even further). They could roleplay as their favorite pro tennis athlete (even further). The last is common in youth sports. In childhood pickup games before going in for a lay up or a jump shot from beyond the three point line the player may shout the name of their most admired professional athlete in an attempt to emulate them.

"Jordan!"

I've shown, and many other posters have already shown, how a person's level of immersion is primarily chosen not given. I suggest you read Konachibi's posts. They accurately show how immersion is subjective. Game mechanics act as the catalyst for immersion. Immersion for immersion's sake is considerably less immersive than if it were to involve player input as well.

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If this conversation has come down to the "cite your sources" argument, which I'm sure would have turned into "unless your citing scholarly journals i don't buy it blah blah blah". I'm going to just walk away from this one, had I known in order to "humble" you i needed to develop a thesis with full work cited i would have reconsidered this conversation as a whole (this is a forum for the love of god). What would be the next thing you asked for, an annotated bibliography?

You seem to me to be a decent person just not very humbled is all, i wish you fun and great times in FF14.

P.S. I apologies for not reading your link directions earlier, i must have skimmed over that accidentally.

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Originally Posted by Bled

If this conversation has come down to the "cite your sources" argument, which I'm sure would have turned into "unless your citing scholarly journals i don't buy it blah blah blah". I'm going to just walk away from this one, had I known in order to "humble" you i needed to develop a thesis with full work cited i would have reconsidered this conversation as a whole (this is a forum for the love of god). What would be the next thing you asked for, an annotated bibliography?

You seem to me to be a decent person just not very humbled is all, i wish you fun and great times in FF14.

P.S. I apologies for not reading your link directions earlier, i must have skimmed over that accidentally.

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wtf am I reading?

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Originally Posted by Charismatic

wtf am I reading?

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Something with a lot of long and complicated words.

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Originally Posted by Bled

If this conversation has come down to the "cite your sources" argument, which I'm sure would have turned into "unless your citing scholarly journals i don't buy it blah blah blah".That's actually not necessary. I think I asked too much of you for this particular argument. What I should have said is, "Can you cite a source?". I'm actually fine if you don't. The "spatial presence" argument doesn't completely trump the "immersion is objective" argument though. I've got to go to work right now but I'll be back later to expand on this. I've shown how immersion can be subjective and Konachibi has given actual examples. The downside of "immersion for immersion's sake" is "The uncanny valley". I'm not sure if you've heard of it but I'll link information to it later. I'm going to just walk away from this one, had I known in order to "humble" you i needed to develop a thesis with full work cited i would have reconsidered this conversation as a whole (this is a forum for the love of god)Understood. You don't need to cite scholarly sources to humble me but that would an excellent job. A very well reasoned argument would humble me. An argument where I'm stumped and can't respond would humble me.. What would be the next thing you asked for, an annotated bibliography?Completely unnecessary.

You seem to me to be a decent person just not very humbled is allAs I've said before, I can be humbled, I just haven't in this thread. I've even shown my faults at times. I've even shown my faults in this post. Shouldn't have asked for sources, miscommunicated once., i wish you fun and great times in FF14.

P.S. I apologies for not reading your link directions earlier, i must have skimmed over that accidentally.

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I did notice though that you were starting to quote mine my responses and juxtapose them strategically to make it seem like I was referring to something else. This will get me to remove myself from the argument just as Azurymber's misuse of the same logical fallacy did. I need to start seeing as much care as I put into my responses as I've been putting into yours. My method of putting red text into your quotes along with an overall response to the post as a whole leaves no room for the "you didn't read what I said." I've noticed that I bring up several points in a response but only cherry picked ones are used in your rebuttals. I can show this when I get back from work, as I can show how you began to quote mine me and pull my words out of context.

I wish the same for you and your enjoyment of Final Fantasy XIV. I don't think our needs are mutually exclusive.

To answer OP's question: Nope.

If it is explained and treated as something logical in the world, it shouldn't break immersion. Did warping in Ocarina of Time break immersion? Nope because it was explained and it made sense within that world. As long as that condition is filled then there should be no problem. FFXIV explains the system and treats it as something that logically is possible and happens on a regular basis.

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

I did notice though that you were starting to quote mine my responses and juxtapose them strategically to make it seem like I was referring to something else. This will get me to remove myself from the argument just as Azurymber's misuse of the same logical fallacy did. I need to start seeing as much care as I put into my responses as I've been putting into yours. My method of putting red text into your quotes along with an overall response to the post as a whole leaves no room for the "you're didn't read what I said." I've noticed that I bring up several points in a response but only cherry picked ones are used in your rebuttals. I can show this when I get back from work, as I can show how you began to quote mine me and pull my words out of context.

I wish the same for you and your enjoyment of Final Fantasy XIV. I don't think our needs are mutually exclusive.

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He's got the Collins English Dictionary Of Long Words at his disposal... it's going to be a tough battle.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

To answer OP's question: Nope.

If it is explained and treated as something logical in the world, it shouldn't break immersion. Did warping in Ocarina of Time break immersion? Nope because it was explained and it made sense within that world. As long as that condition is filled then there should be no problem. FFXIV explains the system and treats it as something that logically is possible and happens on a regular basis.

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This was the basis of my Star Trek metaphor. This particular one is even better as it constrains it to a similar medium "video games" but I'm sure you'll find a rebuttal claiming that Ocarina of Time is not an MMO, completely sidestepping the entire point you were making.

I hope I don't see this as I continue on with the rest of this thread.

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

He's got the Collins English Dictionary Of Long Words at his disposal... it's going to be a tough battle.

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Long words do not phase me. I have the internet at my disposal. I can look them up. If anything I should try to be more concise with my replies. I think people are getting lost in the "forest" and are unable to see the "trail" I've made. I'll probably start putting quote responses in spoilers and limit the post to a summary response.

I was unaware there was anything really left to say in this thread...

I think about 30 pages ago everything that could be said pretty much was, I think we are arguing in cricles still. It's a matter of personal preference wether the insta warps ruin your gameplay experience or not. Just because people have the option doesn't mean it doesn't effect them, the option really does take out all the "Point" of walking.

Sure you can still walk...but why? It's not rewarding anymore like it used to be. Walking to somewhere used to have a point "To get there in one peice" but now that that's invalidated with the airships it really isn't rewarding or even really has a point to be being done. There isn't anything to really see if your just going from city-city, nor is it dangerous, nor is it engaging at all currently.

I can see why people want the warp, I'm still not really bought on the fact that nobody has "The time" to get to places...but I understand the mentality of many who just want to bang out everything as fast as possible. I think it's unhealthy for the game for people to be able to do this...but I understand why they want to be able to do it. People treat MMO's like work more and more nowdays, it's all about maximizing your time/productivity instead of getting wrapped up in a world where you get to forget about how hard you worked, or how crappy your day was.

It's a different mentality between I and the people who want the stuff right away, and I'm sure those people who want instant airships all have their own lines they will draw in the sand eventually and say "That's enough"

I've put my point across that I think a more dynamic world should be worked on before introducing ways to bypass the empty world we currently play in, it's just encouraging the developers to keep pushing work on the overworld back farther and farther when they know they can keep people happy by allowing them to bypass the world.

I don't want the game to become a giant series of instanced content...

But really I hope the people argueing circles around eachother can really just accept that there are two sides to this arguement and no matter what you say the other side isn't listening, nor is either side "Right" it's a matter of preferences...yes that includes involving a "Choice" the option to never have that "Choice" is my preference, because it effect my gameplay experience in a way I don't want it too.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

I was unaware there was anything really left to say in this thread...

I think about 30 pages ago everything that could be said pretty much was, I think we are arguing in cricles still. It's a matter of personal preference wether the insta warps ruin your gameplay experience or not. Just because people have the option doesn't mean it doesn't effect them, the option really does take out all the "Point" of walking.

Sure you can still walk...but why? It's not rewarding anymore like it used to be. Walking to somewhere used to have a point "To get there in one peice" but now that that's invalidated with the airships it really isn't rewarding or even really has a point to be being done. There isn't anything to really see if your just going from city-city, nor is it dangerous, nor is it engaging at all currently.

I can see why people want the warp, I'm still not really bought on the fact that nobody has "The time" to get to places...but I understand the mentality of many who just want to bang out everything as fast as possible. I think it's unhealthy for the game for people to be able to do this...but I understand why they want to be able to do it. People treat MMO's like work more and more nowdays, it's all about maximizing your time/productivity instead of getting wrapped up in a world where you get to forget about how hard you worked, or how crappy your day was.

It's a different mentality between I and the people who want the stuff right away, and I'm sure those people who want instant airships all have their own lines they will draw in the sand eventually and say "That's enough"

I've put my point across that I think a more dynamic world should be worked on before introducing ways to bypass the empty world we currently play in, it's just encouraging the developers to keep pushing work on the overworld back farther and farther when they know they can keep people happy by allowing them to bypass the world.

I don't want the game to become a giant series of instanced content...

But really I hope the people argueing circles around eachother can really just accept that there are two sides to this arguement and no matter what you say the other side isn't listening, nor is either side "Right" it's a matter of preferences...yes that includes involving a "Choice" the option to never have that "Choice" is my preference, because it effect my gameplay experience in a way I don't want it too.

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T L ; D R

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Originally Posted by Ilean

T L ; D R

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Too short, didn't read.

My response to Jynx can be read below:

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Originally Posted by Jynx

I was unaware there was anything really left to say in this thread...There's plenty more.

I think about 30 pages ago everything that could be said pretty much wasI've just came across some ideas that haven't been said in the thread yet. I'll use this post to put them in., I think we are arguing in cricles still.Some people are, some people aren't. It's a matter of personal preference wether the insta warps ruin your gameplay experience or not.Precisely, which is why I've introduced a solution that includes a risk/reward scenario bolstered by actual content. Here's a link for "Future Airship Content Ideas". Just because people have the option doesn't mean it doesn't effect them, the option really does take out all the "Point" of walking.It's lessens the game mechanic of walking, not the point. You can still choose to walk to a destination, and you can only get to certain destinations by walking. For example: Can you teleport directly to little Ala Mhigo?

Sure you can still walk...but why?For the sake of exploration and immersion. It's not rewarding anymore like it used to be.It's just as rewarding, it's just not forced on you. Walking to somewhere used to have a point "To get there in one peice"You still get there in one piece if you teleport. That's a moot point. but now that that's invalidated with the airshipsExcept that it hasn't been. it really isn't rewarding or even really has a point to be being done.There's still plenty of reason to walk. I've shown why and how. Konachibi has presented her own personal experiences that show the incentive. There isn't anything to really see if your just going from city-city, nor is it dangerous, nor is it engaging at all currently.So you'd prefer they stick a R45 Antling back at the impasse between Western and Easter Thanalan. Did we not learn our lesson already on that one? How about adding more objectives to those paths, by adding more content. You do not need to reduce a person's ability to teleport in able to accomplish this.

I can see why people want the warp, I'm still not really bought on the fact that nobody has "The time" to get to placesThat's unfortunate. Especially considering how much time was put into XI's transportation methods. Especially considering how much time it takes to walk from city to city....but I understand the mentality of many who just want to bang out everything as fast as possible. I think it's unhealthy for the game for people to be able to do this...I think it will provide more access to a larger demographic and the supposed "hardcores" aren't being hardcore they're being elitist. Especially in terms of exploration and immersion.but I understand why they want to be able to do it. People treat MMO's like work more and more nowdaysAnd why is the most degraded aspect of it, commuting, almost universally frowned upon. You are using your own resources (fuel, money, calories, time,) and not getting paid for it., it's all about maximizing your time/productivityThis feeling is stressed more when you have multiple timesink inbetween you and your goal. If I have a certain amount of gametime to accomplish a task, I'll choose to completely forgo the attempt to do that task if just getting there is going to eat up so much time that I won't be able to finish the task in the first place. I want to play the game, not wait through it. instead of getting wrapped up in a world where you get to forget about how hard you worked,This is completely up to personal choice. I personally have the time to do so. Having the option actually galvanizes my accomplishment because I chose the road less traveled. or how crappy your day was.

It's a different mentality between I and the people who want the stuff right awayNot always. I love taking my time, when I have it. I don't like being forced to waste my time when I don't., and I'm sure those people who want instant airships all have their own lines they will draw in the sand eventually and say "That's enough"Yes, when you completely negate the option for all parties to play the game how they want when those options don't effect other people.

I've put my point across that I think a more dynamic world should be worked onI agree. They should add more content, even aesthetic details, to the game. They don't need to circumvent convenience to do so, or put up arbitrary barriers when it's unnecessary. before introducing ways to bypass the empty world we currently play inRead Konachibi's posts. It's not as empty as you think., it's just encouraging the developers to keep pushing work on the overworld back farther and farther when they know they can keep people happy by allowing them to bypass the world.I believe you'll be eating these words when they introduce the redesigns for the field areas. Which is coming soon if I'm not mistaken.

I don't want the game to become a giant series of instanced content...I don't think anyone is advocating that it should. Why do you think they're changing the claiming system the way they are. Do you not think that change is being made specifically for non-instanced content. Just be patient, you'll see.

But really I hope the people argueing circles around eachother can really just accept that there are two sides to this arguement and no matter what you say the other side isn't listeningI've made gone through great pains, and considerable time investment, to show that I'm listening. You are correct that some aren't though., nor is either side "Right" it's a matter of preferencesOne side offers vastly more evidence to support their claim and works to include proposals that are inclusive to both sides. That may not be "right" but that's as far from "wrong" as an argument about opinions can be....yes that includes involving a "Choice" the option to never have that "Choice" is my preference, because it effect my gameplay experience in a way I don't want it too.How? You need to expand on this and show how someone has not met or exceeded these expectations.

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A developer creates a game with goals in mind. Final Fantasy XIV has a myriad number of "goals" to achieve. These are further reinforced by the lodestone achievements function. This will further be enhanced by an in-game achievements function which is already in the works. Some goals are clearly defined for the player. Other goals are suggested to the player. And yet there are still, and always will be, goals that the player defines. Putting arbitrary filters to accomplish these goals would be a design flaw. People already called out XI on it's timesinks, airship travel being one of them. The developers responded in XI and have adapted XIV accordingly. Yet there are areas where they could still open things up.

People shouldn't be forced to sink their time into not accomplishing their goals. People should be given the freedom to explore the world as they see fit. Hand holding them or forcing them reduces the sense of independence that accompanies exploration.

Opening up areas, creating potential, and providing content is a job for the development team. Exploring those areas, fulfilling their own potential, and choosing to experience that content is up to the player.

The 20th century philosopher Cornell posited:

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Originally Posted by Soundgarden

To what you wanted to see good
Has made you blind
And what you wanted to be yours
Has made it mine

So don't you lock up something
That you wanted to see fly
Hands are for shaking
No, not tying

No, no tying

I sure don't mind a change

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I've explored the world and seen all the effort the team has put into it, there is just no reason for many people to visit these areas aside from just exploring "A are thing these days it seems" considering how often you hear people complaining about how droll the world is when they probably never have set foot outside of the aetherite camps or where their leves divine them to go.

I'm sorry if you feel that "Forcing" some world exploration is a bad thing, personally I think it should be part of the adventure. I understand you Risk Vs Reward system and I think it's a great idea I looked the thread over earlier and can't find anything to dissagree with really aside from it being extremly time intensive to implement such a system that catter to everyone.

I guess perhaps I'm a tad hard-headed towards the changing demographic of the MMO market, but hell I hear people say that the travel system in XI was "Changed so many times" yet...every single time you had some new means of transportation their was some sort of limit or restriction implaced upon it.

Anima is fine the way it is, aside from the fact you don't even have to TRY to get to the camps before you can warp to them I find that sad that it's an option to just FLAT OUT skip the world, not skip it once you have at least got there...just skip it totally. I'm glad that you at least put some effort into your arguement but I wont really budge on my view of how the system should work.

You should at least have to earn something once before you can access it. Walking is currently pointless if your walking for City-A to City-B there is no reason you should ever do it logically, there is nothing to see or experience on the main roads that is even remotely worth noting. I'm not saying jam rank 45 antlings on the path you can't avoid, but I am saying there should be a hazard or two along the way to town, hell maybe a NPC or two to talk too on the roads that travel from city to city.

Christ even a Merchant or something who runs the roads, he doesn't even have to sell great stuff but having a mobile shop wandering the main roads would put some more life into the world. Like I've said I have no issue with fast travel per-se I'm just against the implementation of it where there is 0 effort into aquiring it. The time investment of Anima is fine to limit, but there needs to be the "Risk" of earning the warp areas prior to teleportation.

Currently Teleporting is 0 risk all reward, getting the aetheral nodes is hardly a challenge either minus the few camps that are flat out impossible to get too. I had one challenging run where I could actually avoid stuff but still have scary situations and I believe that was one of the Gridania ones before they changed Efts into instantly agroing morons. (Why they changed efts and a select few other monster agro conditions is beyond me)

I want their to be a challenge when I get a rank 40 camp when I'm nowhere near rank 40. I don't want everyone else to be able to earn it by snapping their fingers either. It cheapens the accomplishment of actually having it when there really was no challenge in the first place because it was skipable.

It's like telling people they could get into (Sorry FFXI reference again) Sea without doing any of the quests, sure you could do the quests and get the story...but you can also just skip all that and walk into Sea no rhym no reason. I think things should be earned, I think thats a great reward being able to get to an area because you worked hard to get it!

I don't think your against this either I'm not targeting you specifically with my arguement, but as it stands instant transportation effects my enjoyment of the game. I don't get the same rush "Just because I went off the beaten path" I get the rush when I did something others had a hard time doing as well, and it's a trial for everyone who plays. You can't give every kid in the class a gold star for trying without making the gold star feel cheap and pointless.

To Jynx:

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Originally Posted by Jynx

I've explored the world and seen all the effort the team has put into it, there is just no reason for many people to visit these areas aside from just exploringThey could include more content to get people to go there. They could also already have content in mind just haven't implemented it yet. "A are thing these days it seems"I don't understand this. considering how often you hear people complaining about how droll the world is when they probably never have set foot outside of the aetherite camps or where their leves divine them to go.That's their fault, but also, they should include more content that reinforces a purpose to go there. Forcing people to walk does not accomplish that.

I'm sorry if you feel that "Forcing" some world exploration is a bad thing, personally I think it should be part of the adventure.It is for me. I've already stated that I actually arrived at all of my aetheryte camps manually. For those that want to forgo that they are missing out, but that's their choice. It doesn't effect my adventure. I understand you Risk Vs Reward system and I think it's a great idea I looked the thread over earlier and can't find anything to dissagree with really aside from it being extremly time intensive to implement such a system that catter to everyone.I agree that some of the content is asking a lot, especially the private airship stuff, but the three options really aren't asking that much and could definitely be introduced in stages. Stage one being an instant-teleport (the most basic option) for a fee. This or some revision of this is what we'll be seeing in patch 1.19 and I think it's a great start.

I guess perhaps I'm a tad hard-headed towards the changing demographic of the MMO market, but hell I hear people say that the travel system in XI was "Changed so many times" yet...every single time you had some new means of transportation their was some sort of limit or restriction implaced upon it.Yes. You have a pool of resources to acquire or gain and spend them accordingly at your discretion. The current anima system provides the same game mechanism.

Anima is fine the way it isI agree., aside from the fact you don't even havehave is the keyword here. to TRYAll caps are unnecessary, even for emphasis. to get to the camps before you can warp to themYou still can. If you've got a friend who already has them you can. If you are a loner CE release guy like myself, that was half the fun. I've already told the story about my Aetherial Expeditions where I'd get a group of random folks together for the sole purpose of exploring and acquiring access to the different camps. I find that sadI find it to provide a sense of adventure and independence. that it's an option to just FLAT OUT skip the world, not skip it once you have at least got there...just skip it totally.It's their prerogative. You've certainly decided against that and explored it yourself. You've also provided a very good idea later on in your post which I'll highlight when we get to it. I'm glad that you at least put some effort into your arguement but I wont really budge on my view of how the system should work.This is not a quality I admire, and it tells me that there's no point in continuing this conversation.

You should at least have to earn something once before you can access it.You've earned the ability to teleport to the location either by convincing someone to teleport you there or by walking there yourself. There's just a different level of difficulty required. You don't start the game out with all the points active. Walking is currently pointless if your walking for City-A to City-BI've already shown how that statement is false. there is no reason you should ever do it logically, there is nothing to see or experience on the main roads that is even remotely worth noting.So you would have us walk it anyways? That's backwards logic. I like what you add later on though and I think it's a step in the right direction. I'm not saying jam rank 45 antlings on the pathYou're right, and I misrepresented you. I was not serious in that condemnation though and I'm glad we agree that we shouldn't put rank 45 antlings on the path. you can't avoid, but I am saying there should be a hazard or two along the way to townI don't agree. There should be things to do though., hell maybe a NPC or two to talk too on the roads that travel from city to city.YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!! Now we're talking. Purpose, meaning, content! We need more of that. Give me a reason to walk. Give me a reason to go there. Give me a reason! This is the point I've been advocating for all along and it only adds benefits to both sides of the argument and to the player base as a whole.

Christ even a Merchant or something who runs the roads,Excellent idea! he doesn't even have to sell great stuff but having a mobile shop wandering the main roads would put some more life into the world.Even better. Have the merchant move and change places. Make him/her more alive! I'd also like to see this concept added to the market ward NPCs. That would be so wonderful! Like I've said I have no issue with fast travel per-se I'm just against the implementation of it where there is 0 effort into aquiring it.Like I said there isn't 0 effort in acquiring it. You still have to activate it and that is, at the very least, a modicum amount of effort. The time investment of Anima is fine to limit, but there needs to be the "Risk" of earning the warp areas prior to teleportation.There is a risk. When they implement new zones with new Aetheryte camps you'll find out how. Not only that but the elitists can say, "I got this myself. You probably just warped here." Win/Win.

Currently Teleporting is 0 risk all rewardDepending on if someone is willing to help you., getting the aetheral nodes is hardly a challenge either minus the few camps that are flat out impossible to get too.They are not impossible. Find a group of friends who also don't have them and venture forth! I had one challenging run where I could actually avoid stuff but still have scary situationsI had several in each main field area. Come to think of it, I don't even think I have them all yet. and I believe that was one of the Gridania ones before they changed Efts into instantly agroing morons. (Why they changed efts and a select few other monster agro conditions is beyond me)I totally agree. Making it impossible only encourages people to "cheat port" there even more. At least before you could get out of aggro distance before they attacked you.

I want their to be a challenge when I get a rank 40 camp when I'm nowhere near rank 40.There is but that's up to you. Also, what are you doing at a rank 40 camp when you're nowhere near rank 40? I'm glad you have the ability to get there but I don't see what motivated you to do so. I propose more motivations for varied levels. I don't want everyone else to be able to earn it by snapping their fingers either.This is where we disagree. I don't let other people's accomplishments ruin my own sense of accomplishment. It cheapens the accomplishment of actually having it when there really was no challenge in the first place because it was skipable.I suggest you change your frame of mind on this particular concept. I understand applying this to matters of the economy or things that actually effect other people but this is a fabricated effect that is self imposed and needlessly so. The game is so much more enjoyable when you define your own accomplishments. This applies to life in general as well.

It's like telling people they could get into (Sorry FFXI reference again) Sea without doing any of the quests,I'm fine with that. No need to apologize for referencing XI. The connections are clear. I actually don't like when people say that you can't reference XI. That's just asinine to me. I'm also fine with them getting there at level one. Put in angry mobs and we'll see how long they stay there. sure you could do the quests and get the story...but you can also just skip all that and walk into Sea no rhym no reason. I think things should be earned, I think thats a great reward being able to get to an area because you worked hard to get it!I think it's better if they introduce content in that area that requires you to manipulate game mechanics with masterful precision in order to accomplish the tasks that are there. From an artistic perspective, I'm disappointed that there is a large group of people that aren't seeing my hard work even though they'd like to.

I don't think your against this eitherCorrect. I'm not targeting you specifically with my arguement, but as it stands instant transportation effects my enjoyment of the game.As I suggested above. The water's warm. I don't get the same rush "Just because I went off the beaten path" I get the rush when I did something others had a hard time doing as wellThere is content in the game that covers that. Seeing the sites and taking in the scenery I don't think should be one of them., and it's a trial for everyone who plays. You can't give every kid in the class a gold star for trying without making the gold star feel cheap and pointless.I agree, but you have to give every kid in the class a book so they can learn and eventually, especially in higher education, they need to learn how to teach themselves. They need to revel in their own accomplishments in order to positively reinforce themselves. Instilling that concept is hard to do but is necessary in a free society.

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I love some of the ideas proposed in this post. This is forward thinking in my opinion. It's not the same old rehashed argument and actually applies a degree of understanding the other side.

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I'm sorry if you feel that "Forcing" some world exploration is a bad thing, personally I think it should be part of the adventure. I understand you Risk Vs Reward system and I think it's a great idea I looked the thread over earlier and can't find anything to dissagree with really aside from it being extremly time intensive to implement such a system that catter to everyone.

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I think it's better to "trick" players into exploring by having your content divided up between different sections of a given area than it is to "force" it upon them by making them take the long way to a given destination. If that sounds like a "theme park", it's because it is, but it's an effective model for a developer if one of your goals is to, at the very least, get people to go near the places where you've put all kinds of cool stuff; from there, you can add elements to the area that will gently nudge the player in a given direction without outright forcing them to go that way to finish their mission. Something as simple as the lighting in an area can accomplish this goal, but I'm sure there are other methods, like additional mobs.

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Originally Posted by Quanta

I think it's better to "trick" players into exploring by having your content divided up between different sections of a given area than it is to "force" it upon them by making them take the long way to a given destination. If that sounds like a "theme park", it's because it is, but it's an effective model for a developer if one of your goals is to, at the very least, get people to go near the places where you've put all kinds of cool stuff; from there, you can add elements to the area that will gently nudge the player in a given direction without outright forcing them to go that way to finish their mission. Something as simple as the lighting in an area can accomplish this goal, but I'm sure there are other methods, like additional mobs.

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I agree, and Jynx added suggestions that support that style of game design, whether he was aware of it or not.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

I can see why people want the warp, I'm still not really bought on the fact that nobody has "The time" to get to places...but I understand the mentality of many who just want to bang out everything as fast as possible. I think it's unhealthy for the game for people to be able to do this...but I understand why they want to be able to do it. People treat MMO's like work more and more nowdays, it's all about maximizing your time/productivity instead of getting wrapped up in a world where you get to forget about how hard you worked, or how crappy your day was.

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If walking is so important to you, why not take a half-hour walk... outside. At least you'll have the benefit of the exercise. And if you don't have to walk a half-hour in the MMO you play every session, that's more time to get out more. :p

There are more important things in life than being immersed in tedium in the game. I mean, your character also doesn't have to eat, drink, sleep, perform daily hygene, pay taxes, and throw out the garbage for a reason. People just want to cut to the action, not live out yet another boring life.

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Originally Posted by AmyRae

If walking is so important to you, why not take a half-hour walk... outside. At least you'll have the benefit of the exercise. And if you don't have to walk a half-hour in the MMO you play every session, that's more time to get out more. :p

There are more important things in life than being immersed in tedium in the game. I mean, your character also doesn't have to eat, drink, sleep, perform daily hygene, pay taxes, and throw out the garbage for a reason. People just want to cut to the action, not live out yet another boring life.

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Sounds like he wants it to be like how they represent MMOs in anime, with the characters being actually fully immersed (matrix style) and even simple tasks like walking to the next town becoming an awesome adventure full of things to discover.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVUmQ3xiJJE

It's a nice ideal but also something you just can't really get from any of the existing MMO.

I really suggest people looking for that kind of immersion try pen & paper....

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Originally Posted by Ilean

Sounds like he wants it to be like how they represent MMOs in anime, with the characters being actually fully immersed (matrix style) and even simple tasks like walking to the next town becoming an awesome adventure full of things to discover.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVUmQ3xiJJE

It's a nice ideal but also something you just can't really get from any of the existing MMO.

I really suggest people looking for that kind of immersion try pen & paper....

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that anime is epic