[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

What I wanted was that you have the Gladiator up till rank 30 or whatever from which point onwards you can unlock Paladin (tank spec) or continue on the Gladiator further (DD spec). It's a challenge for the devs to make it so the current classes can compete against these old classes for sure, yah... but damn, I don't think the lore for them is that bad. They just need to refine them, make the lore more obvious and it should work.

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That can be done but at that point I feel like you're adding new classes (FF ones) for the sake of adding them. Just give the current ones a more obvious role in groups/encounters.

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Originally Posted by northernsky

There is no problem at all at having multiple upgrades per basic class. It's one of the strength of this system.

The only issue I have is that following the holy path also improves your dark skills, for example.
Or forget the name of the classes. Imagine that your GLA hits 40. You learn simultaneously a technique that cuts damage in half and another that doubles your damage output. I would like maybe a little more consistency in the path I decide to follow instead of just having more abilities to choose from once I have access to my specialization.

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The way that I had envisioned that would NOT happen the way you explained. Your GLA from ranking up would not gain anything that resembles something that is PLD or DRK.

In my example:

- GLA hits 40 (learns something generic like Heavy Stab) <- an example
- You put points you earned from hitting 40 into whatever spec you are. Say you're DRK. "Oh sweet I have enough points for Souleater"

^ something like that.

@ Dreamer

I've no idea what you're trying to say with your comment nor does it fall in with what we're currently discussing. Care to elaborate?

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That can be done but at that point I feel like you're adding new classes (FF ones) for the sake of adding them. Just give the current ones a more obvious role in groups/encounters.

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Honestly, you just described my thoughts about the whole deal.

I guess it could give kinda a detached and an out-of-place feeling about the whole thing. That's true.

But honessttllyyy, It's not like this "special task" to get access to the other spec would have to be anything massive. I think SE would like it too, as it gives us more goals to aim for (and more time for them to add content n shits). Time to go back to the drawing board to figure out what it could be!

It could be a set of trial quests/dungeons to "prove your worth" or whatever. Like getting a new class for half the effort. It doesn't have to be class specific either, but maybe all three city states would have their own so that you wouldn't have to repeat the same one until you level a 4th class.

Omg, we've come to an agreement. I feel like I've won some internets today.

I did feel that if there is a best solution, we would figure it out today.

Sounds like this could be a win. So here's another suggestion to think about. Force specialization after R50. Add weapon choices to base classes. For example:

Gladiator (Sword/shield, Great sword) -> Dark Knight (Great Sword), Paladin (Sword, shield)
Pugilist ((change name?)) (H2H, Dagger) -> Monk (Hand to Hand), Thief (Dagger)
Archer (Gun, Bow) -> Ranger (Bow), Corsair (Gun)

And so on. Limit specializations to 2 per base class. This way, when expansions come out, and new jobs, they add new base classes with 2 more specializations. After 3 expansions, we're up to 20 or more advanced classes. We don't want TOO many, so limiting to 2 per would be good. Maybe 3. But, for example:

Expansion one:
Tamer (Club, Gemmed-wand or something) -> Beastmaster (Club), Summoner (Wnad or something)

Expansion two:
Ronin (Great Katana, Katana) -> Ninja (Katana), Samurai (Great Katana)

Just more to think about. I have no beef with your proposal, and like I've said, I haven't read ALL the discussion, but if you like this, want to adjust it, whatever... It's yours. Free of charge. I love that you're putting together a huge summary of player supported job/class adjustments. Keep going!

Hmm actually what you're suggesting would work as a fix to the problem. If the extra weapon type is part of the Base Class there won't be an issue when swapping.. Why I didn't think of that before is beyond me. We just have to make it so that the extra weapon types are a trait that is specific to anything branching out from the base. Not sure 50 is the right level for that though.. should be earlier. Just a thought.

Obviously we give bonuses to players for using Great Sword (on DRK) and sword/shield (on PLD) to kinda curb their choice into something that makes sense.

I agree that 2 is a good number for specs. If they add 3 per base we'll be out of FF classes before we know it. I also agree that reserving something as diverse as katana is better left for an entirely new Base. lol

^ adding to OP#3. Lemme know if something should be changed from there.

Why not let the PGL be a BLM for the magic attack bonus for siesmic shock? Use the equivalent of artifact armor to lock out classes. Optimized builds become self evident enough. Yes, your BLM wants nukes native to the weapon. Yes, your PLD probably wants a freakin shield. People are going to recognize what works best despite everything and run with it. *points at FFXI NIN/DRK* Let it happen!

Just because you're free to do that doesn't make it good. Yes lets load up on MAB to slightly raise 1 attack for our PUG. That sounds phenomenal (obvious sarcasm).

This is a different game, sure we can take what worked in XI but we don't have to take everything. There are combinations that can be made that will feel unique with a board or a tree. It all depends on what new abilities/traits they come up with.

WoW has (had) something called "Shock-adin" that came from people loading up certain talents/abilities to raise their AoE power on Paladin. Players would use this to effectively AoE grind.

It wasn't something the developers had in mind but something that was created by the users. Saying that that cannot happen here or I'm not letting it happen is asinine.

I agree just because you can doesnt mean you should. I would still personally prefer a more free system with the dumb builds available and a very very careful attempt at balancing cross class actions to prevent "shock-adins", those sound terrible. Locking out classes with your tree doesnt shockadin-proof anything either.

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Originally Posted by Jericho

Sounds like this could be a win. So here's another suggestion to think about. Force specialization after R50. Add weapon choices to base classes. For example:

Gladiator (Sword/shield, Great sword) -> Dark Knight (Great Sword), Paladin (Sword, shield)
Pugilist ((change name?)) (H2H, Dagger) -> Monk (Hand to Hand), Thief (Dagger)
Archer (Gun, Bow) -> Ranger (Bow), Corsair (Gun)

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I like this idea as it's similar to what I think will happen (easy to add with the current system and not wasting people current progress).

Instead of a spec tree or whatever grid system for the new unlocked classes, why not just use the existing Guild Mark system ? You gather Guild Mark in a similar fashion (new guildleves at the many unused r50 camps, quests, instances, etc ...) and use them to buy active/passive actions/traits for the new advanced class (keeping your AF gear and other ideas).

That would make something to do for the people already r50 and isn't your typical grinding.

Whats terrible about Shockadin? That was actually a really good way for people to grind back in the days. I think it was a mix of Retribution and Protection trees.

I've heard dumber shit on these forums like Arcane Ranger.

Chinook, that was suggested a while ago and I have no objection. You can indeed use Guild Marks for this or could even use the Action points menu.

I just feel there should be a GUI attached to it that gives you a visual look at your progression into the class. With hover over explanations for what that ability/trait does when you put points into it.

this thread is still active... lol. We've all disputed the presently viable reconstructions. Why not make a new thread that details the "easiest" transition from current system to new- easy meaning simplest financial, programming, and timeline aspects. Or o...

Or you can start providing something beneficial to the thread instead of bumping it if you have a problem with it.

OP#3 has a list of balances/fixes that came about after the discussions we've had in this thread. Theres no point in another thread. I plan ahead of time which is not what I can say about many others on these boards.

I generally agree with the OP and having read every single post since last night; I honestly only have one major problem. I just dislike the concept of not having to "work" for your "specializations" well, sure you worked to get the "Base Class" LNC or otherwise to rank 50 or the like, but I wouldn't want to be given my "advanced class" even were I 50. I suppose
I'm just nostalgic about grabbing my first ever Great Katana and cutting down wee mandragoras. It just felt right.

As opposed to being able to at rank 50, slaughter things and level the class effortlessly.

I propose a possible addendum. If you've ever played Ragnarok Online, they have a "rebirth" system. Wherein, you lose all of your past abilities but become much more powerful when you start over. Perhaps instead of losing all your abilites you might retain some of them at lesser levels, and you can build on them. Subsequently, one can change back to the previous job and have the stats they left. However, any skills gained while that "rebirthed" class are only usable as that class.

It's a rough idea but I'm working on it.

This rebirth is for specs after the initial choice correct? First choice is free but rebirth after ya?

I'm not for this, but I'm not against it either. It could be implemented with this and it could work. This'll be more along the line of something Hyan would like since its more or less what we were discussing earlier today.

First off, forgive me. I'm late to the party and though I read the original post(s), there's no way I can make it through 54 pages of follow up discussion.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but are you suggesting that once a player unlocks a specialization, that will then be at the same level as the base class which unlocked it? I.E. GLA unlocks PLD @ R30, PLD is essentially at R30? If that's the case, then the biggest flaw is that we never expand beyond the 7 base classes we have now.

One of the things that worked about XI was that unlocking classes meant you had to start from level 1. It expanded our gameplay immensely. In this system, it won't take that long for someone to cap all 7 base classes, and then be maxed on all specializations. I'd much rather unlock the specialization, then have to re-rank it from 1. From a lore standpoint, you have to train in the skills to master them, ya? You keep players going back to the starting point, also eliminating some concerns about new players being on their own and crafters having more customers (assuming rank-free gear is changed.)

How do you plan to introduce new classes? How many specializations does that ultimately lead to, keeping in mind the immense task of keeping everything balanced?

Edit: looks like Zaene had the same concern.

^ the questions you made lead me to ask whether you read and understood the OP. Those questions were very clearly (I think) explained. I even gave an outline of how to go about introducing these new classes...

You're thinking of these classes as just something new like in XI and thats the wrong way to look at it. These classes are just a focus for the base class. Paladin is a Gladiator that specializes at taking/mitigating damage. Dark Knight is a Gladiator that specializes in dealing damage. Etc etc. Get out of the XI mindset and you will see this. XI's "Advanced Classes" weren't necessarily an "Advanced Class" they were just an extra class.

Seriously man, I hate to say it... But answering that I felt like we took like 2 steps back from the OP.

The problem you have with this method is that we're doing it fairly late into the game's lifespan so it doesn't feel likes it makes sense. For someone that started and is leveling normally it will make a world of sense. I laid out this proposal with that in mind while also remembering that I cant leave your 48 PUG out to dry.

Yes, it is for specs after initial choice of say GLA. You then level and choose DRK. Then you are "rebirthed" as a DRK you keep some of your GLA skills and begin accruing DRK only skills. The primary reason for the splitting in my reasoning is the problem of 'never starting the advanced class from 1'. Yes, you mention that the skills will be "level 1" but it's only really in concept not actually in deed. I'd like to fight level 1 monsters, and have that old timey "thrill" of starting over.

It's honestly what I liked so much about FFXI. Being able to start over as new classes.

Ok... Now what happens to GLA? Thats the problem with what you're suggesting.

You just added DRK for the sake of adding DRK. You have not addressed the problem with the current classes - GLA in this case.

You're treating GLA as some unnecessary, extra grind to get into what you want to do and throwing it off the cliff when you're done. I feel that is the completely wrong way to go about it and why I have yet to see any other proposal that is better than what I've suggested.

You're assuming that's what I intended. I think there needs to be more initiative to level those "base classes". You would keep your GLA levels, but these new classes would come from the base classes. Perhaps at high levels something is learned on those base classes that makes them attractive. You could change back to GLA, or play DRK. I have no intention of 'doing away with' the base classes. Perhaps GLA at high levels gets "Mighty Strikes" and no other class gets it and it's not cross-classable.

My big point of contention is the fact that I feel one should be able to fully experience classes like SAM or DRK. Not have them as simply specializations.

Again, late to the party, trying to grasp the concept here. Perhaps I worded my post wrong. My main concern is that we don't have more than 7 base classes with this system. I understand your proposal as posted in the OP. The specialization isn't a new class, it's an augmentation to the existing ones. Once my GLA is R50 though, I can freely swap between PLD and DRK. We get 14 specializations for the price of 7.

If you outlined something about new classes, I'm not seeing it. Adding new classes is including 2 specializations for each of those, again, a huge task to keep everything balanced while trying to maintain uniqueness.

Zaene is resonating with what I'm saying here.

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Originally Posted by Zaene

You're assuming that's what I intended. I think there needs to be more initiative to level those "base classes". You would keep your GLA levels, but these new classes would come from the base classes. Perhaps at high levels something is learned on those base classes that makes them attractive. You could change back to GLA, or play DRK. I have no intention of 'doing away with' the base classes. Perhaps GLA at high levels gets "Mighty Strikes" and no other class gets it and it's not cross-classable.

My big point of contention is the fact that I feel one should be able to fully experience classes like SAM or DRK. Not have them as simply specializations.

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Again, you're not fixing anything and adding to the mess. Ok so you keep your GLA levels (because we cant make you re-grind) but SE now has to balance this class against the others.

How does GLA stand on its own is a better way to re-phrase the question. By the way.. what you're suggesting is not even specializations they are brand new classes.


@Ayerc

I agree its a huge task in balancing since you end up with 14 playable outcomes at endgame. Though this is remedied by the fact that most of the work is already done and you just have to move things around. Although its 14 playable outcome they're just 14 good ones out of the many that are currently available. People can and are doing this now - all we're doing is putting a name on it basically.

In regards to brand new classes... In order to add those they need to add a new Base Class (a weapon) and then add 2 specs that could branch off from that. As Jericho suggested:

Ronin (Katana, Great Katanas) -> Ninja (Katanas) / Samurai (Great Katana).


Whats stopping someone from taking a ton of CON/THM spells, some attack buffs, etc and calling themselves a DRK? <--- Using our current system.

Correct, nothing is stopping them and its not what is being balanced for.

I would like to see the FF8 system where every character can equip one summon to add to his powers. If he wants melee power while he is mage he can use Ifrit for example.

Summons has skill trees as well so you can use those abilities from the summon if you unlock them. FF12 system is really nice one to have. with Summon added to your character you can become any type you like. Atma system in FF11 but with summon instead .

and PLEASE SE if you doing combat animation try to make it really heavy and cool, the sound of the attacks and the feeling of the hits really important, make it feel like real fighting. sound effects really has huge impact of how we like to use the character , with great animation as well.

classic jobs in FF has also tree skills will be great to have with some sub trees from other jobs as well.

I can see where Zaene and Ayerc are coming from. Even if we end up with 20 advanced jobs, thats really only 10 grinds. to have all 20 advanced jobs completely leveled. At least thats the way I think I'm seeing it. And then switching advanced jobs is as easy as switching your talent points. If I am misinterpreting, I apologize. Here's another alternate suggestion that you can implement/consider (again, free of charge) ;)

You're right, 50 is too high. I was only trying to account for the fact that 50 is already the cap. Let's change that to 30 and do something else with these other 20 levels later.

You begin leveling Gladiator, from level 1 to 30, using a Great Sword or a Sword and Shield. When you hit 30, you are now allowed to begin the specialization. You do the unlock quest for Dark Knight and the quest for Paladin. Now, every time you equip a Great Sword, your class is set as "Gladiator: Dark Knight", and every time you equip a Sword and Shield, your class becomes "Gladiator: Paladin". Of course, people would shorten the terms to Paladin and Dark Knight, but listed on the Status page, they would have the full name. Your Paladin and Dark Knight, as will be the case with all advanced jobs, are unlocked at level 30, and begin with all the abilities of your Gladiator, which is currently level 30.

Now, lets say you level up your Dark Knight to level 45, then decide you want to be a Paladin. Your Gladiator, along with your Dark Knight, are level 45. Your Paladin, however, is still down at level 30. You switch your class to "Gladiator: Paladin" and your level is pushed down to 30. But, because your Gladiator level is higher than 30, you gain a boost to your Paladin (Because, at this point, physical levels are gone, so your Gladiator level becomes a sort of Physical Level for your advanced Dark Knight and Paladin). As you gain levels with your Paladin, your Gladiator continues to climb, unlocking some abilities and traits you can use on either Paladin or Dark Knight. Let's say you get to level 45 with Paladin, then switch back to Dark Knight. You're now a 45 Dark Knight, but your Gladiator continued to climb on Paladin, so now you've got a couple more abilities and a maxed "Physical Level" type role from Gladiator of 50 or almost 50.

Also, to clarify, lets say you don't unlock Dark Knight, just Paladin. If you switch to a Great Sword, you become solely "Gladiator" and can continue to play that way. It would be a painful way to max Gladiator to 50, or whatever the level cap is at this point, which would boost your Dark Knight and Paladin when you start them, which would still be down at level 30.

For Zaene and Ayerc: Think of it this way. You CAN start by equipping your first Katana AND Great Katana at level 1, when SE releases that base/advanced job combination. When you hit 30 and unlock the advanced classes, you've got 2 jobs at level 30, both of which you've played, enjoyed, gotten the full effect of, while only really have to completely grind once, because all your abilities and traits are that of a level 30 "Ronin" type character, with maybe one trait that allows shows your specialization so far. You unlock both and you essentially have 2 identical jobs ready to be leveled, sharing a "physical level".

Again, use anything you wish Kuro, and I will always say I deeply appreciate what you're doing! Keep it up!

**Edit**

Consider the possible addition of prerequisites for the "extra base jobs" as they are released with Expansions, such as another quest or level requirement on another base job. Maybe then those that feel nostalgic about unlocking the new jobs would get that satisfaction? (I am in that group, though I am in full support of this idea, and hope SE keeps reading at least the first 3 posts.)

That's exactly what I'm seeing and saying here, Jericho. Thanks to you for that post.

A couple of points:

I'd be all for your revision, if the R50 cap was raised to something more significant, or the specializations were unlocked earlier (around R10 or 20, 20 being more optimal based on how easy it is to get to right now). Playing PLD or DRK for only 20 ranks (30-50) is seriously limiting the enjoyment you could have with the class had you started at R1. Not to mention the experience (not points, actually learning how to use a PLD) you gain by playing the class for that long.

Once you have either specialization skills acquired, a mix and match based on your allotted trait points should still be possible. This is keeping with providing more options to the player wanting to create a unique build, what XIV was originally trying to achieve with cross class skills. To overcome issues with a completely free swap, perhaps DRK skills are less effective while subbed, however that deficit can be removed by spending guild marks to enhance the effect of subbed skills while at the same time buffing the effect of the skill when it's used on main. Sort of like meritting skills in XI, but with less limitation on the max number of upgrades. If a player chooses to invest the time and effort to enhance DRK skills so they are just as effective on PLD, why stop them?

For example: DRK skill Last Resort adds +20/10% attack at it's main/sub base. Using advanced training for Last Resort through the GLA guild via guild marks adds +1% to that main/sub base. After 5 sessions of this adv training, Last Resort is then at +25/15% main/sub. After 10, it's at +30/20%. Coupled with raising the GM cost of subsequent training, this should be deemed fair.

I agree with OP so much. FF12's Grid style "Talent tree" would have so much custimization and awesomeness if they do it right. Please Yoshi-p! for the love of Final Fantasy!

I like that idea. While still implementing at least SOME spec specific traits/abilities, certain ones will be obtainable on both jobs, which I think I may have put into my post, just basically calling that a "Gladiator" ability. Then, furthering that with yours, Ayerc, the abilities/traits would be most effective one on over the other. Going even further, we could call some of the "Disciples of War" abilities or the like, and they could be 3 tiered. Such as:

Souleater - 20% base (Dark Knight), 1/2 on complement job (Paladin), and 1/3 on remaining (All other jobs).
GLA Guild Marks - Souleater Effect (up to 30%) and Souleater Affinity (Up to 2/3 Complement job, 1/2 remaining jobs).

This way, a Warrior (branched from a Maurader) could obtain Souleater if his GLA level was high enough, and have it be worth 6% attack bonus, which... Well, you know, extra attack is extra attack. But with full Effects and Affinities, you'd have a 30% - 20% - 15% bonus, but you'd have to work pretty hard for it.

Something along those lines?

*** Edit ***

I didn't realize that what I'm saying is exactly whats in the game already. Except for the spec jobs part.

When I was typing it up, I figured it may be subbed on any main, not just the GLA tree. I hadn't thought about a three tier system though.

I'm a believer that if I know a skill, I know it, regardless of my profession. Of course that skill should have a greater affinity when used as a main. Integrating a third tier is just an extension of that, as (in the example) GLA is the main class, PUG is not. I could make that compromise.

The work definitely has to be there, it should take time and effort to gain bonuses to the base skill. Just like meriting did. I'm not sure I'd limit it to just 10 upgrades, either. Probably capping when the third tier effectiveness matches the original base of 20% (13 upgrades in this case)? If the guild cost is multiplied for subsequent bonuses, the diminished return would be naturally prohibitive, unless someone really wanted to invest in it. Starting at a 2k GM base with a multiplier of 1.25 would mean you'd need about 66,500 GM total to reach your tenth upgrade. And over 137k to reach 13 (that's a cost of about 29,100 GM for the 12>13 upgrade of +1%). But when you're at endgame with nothing better to do...why not. If you want a PUG with Soul Eater at full effectiveness, it just adds to the uniqueness as there would be very few people to take it that far, also making that character a little more epic in that regard.


Edit response:

It's somewhat in the game already. But not everything in the game currently is broken either, just needs some tweaking or re-envisioning.

I love it.

I think that sort of idea can easily go along with Kuro's original ideas and mine. Mine is almost the same, but strays away from Talent Points and lets you level both jobs independently (30+) more or less, being a branch of the original classes. So far, after reading a few more Dev1033 tagged threads, I like the ideas formulating on this thread the most and I believe they would be the easiest for SE to implement.

Oh, and I am also going off the idea that 50 is not going to be the overall standard level cap, once the game gets going it'll be pushed up. I don't know if 75 will be the magic number they'll stick with for the bulk of the experience, or 80, or 100, or whatever, but I'm willing to bet it won't stay at 50.

An example of a two spec per base class system...
*Note* I gave LNC the pole, then changed the names for THM and CON which both already use different staves for two new classes of weapons. Yes, we have three different types of staves.
*Note2* For the Pup suggestion... Think of staff wielding as Gabrielle on Xena, not a back-line weapon.
*Note3* In order to keep too much content from being released, maybe stick with base classes until the release of the first expansion (or more appropriately, the first expansion + ps3 release)
*...note4...* I'm obviously slightly ffxi biased... kekeke


Original Jobs:

Gladiator (Sword/Shield, Great Sword) -> Dark Knight (Great Sword), Paladin (Sword/Shield)
*Both use magic (dark/light) and have abilities that enhance said magics, and attack/def respectively*

Pugilist (H2H, Dagger(s)) -> Monk (H2H), Thief (Dagger(s))
*Both specialize in evasiveness and speed, as well as targeting weaknesses*

Marauder (Great Axe, Axe(s)) -> Warrior (Great Axe), Beastmaster (Axe(s))
*Both can be powerful damage dealers, War excelling and Bst focusing on intimidation?*

Archer (Bow, Gun) -> Ranger (Bow), Corsair (Gun)
*Obviously, both are ranged damage dealers, possibly buffs or random stuff for Cor*

Lancer (Spear, Pole) -> Dragoon (Spear), Puppetmaster (Pole)
*Both begin focusing on have a companion to fight with you*

Thaumaturge (Scepter/Shield, Staff) -> Red Mage (Scepter/Shield), Scholar (Staff)
*Both focus on keep MP regenerated and different buffs/debuffs*

Conjurer (Wand/Shield, Cane) -> White Mage (Wand/Shield), Black Mage (Cane)
*Enough said*


Expansions:

Ronin (Katana(s), Great Katana) -> Ninja (Katana(s)), Samurai (Great Katana)
*Evasion, eastern technique, etc*

Performer (Jambiya, Instruments) -> Dancer (Jambiya), Bard (Instruments)
*Buffing the party, etc*

Sage? (Scimitar, Clubs) -> Blue Mage (Scimitar), Summoner (Clubs)
*Focus on enemy skills and the summoning the elements*


My posts on this thread belong to Kuro to do as he pleases, btw. I believe this is an awesome thread with a really great OP who is taking the time to hold a discussion, listen to input, and construct an easy to read option for SE in the first three posts here.


**EDIT**

ACTUALLY! Who says all jobs have to have both specializations right away? To spread it out, some of the original base classes could only have 1 specialization for now, while an expansion could release more base classes with only one, or finish up an older base class. More to consider.

Kurokikaze I gotta admit this is a well put together thought and very well explained but I don't like the idea of restricting my freedom that SE has given me in this game. I like the idea SE saying about bring back classic jobs like you are proposing but I would like the freedom of choosing my weapons, skills and class. Where I can mix Dark knight with Marauder, Lancer, or be it Archer. Its the freedom I like and its what makes it so different from FFXI. I would understand keeping Disciples of War (like Dark Knight, Dragoon, Paladin, Monk, Ninja, and Samurai) with War and Disciples of Magic (like Summoner, Black Mage, White Mage, Red Mage, Blue Mage and etc.) with Magic. I also understand the difficulty of have for example a Monk (which is a Bare fist fighter or fights with a staff job) mix with a GLA but I like some of the class unique abilities and how some of them work better with the same class. What you are proposing is another system like the Point System for attributes. Sure its a good idea but it means I can't be that flexible because I gotta go back and change choices between Paladin and Dark. Meaning for example 75% of the server choose Dark and a party is looking for an available Paladin Tank it sounds like we are out of luck til someone goes back and redo there Job quests. (Could happen some servers look pretty empty like 400 people the most)

Hopefully I read your thread wrong and I am misunderstanding something so I am gonna just as questions instead and if you wish to answer me I would be grateful.

1. If I should Dark Knight would I be able to do Paladin as well and fully level and unlock all talents at the same time?

2. Being a Dark Knight I am restricted to GLA class meaning only Sword and Shield or Great Sword? So that means no Scythe, No Great Axe, and No more mixing weapon skills or anything else? just like FFXI?

3. With the Talent Tree, we are talking like merit points? meaning you only get a limit and we cannot fully explore every option unless retaking the points we put in and reallocating them? Or make a whole new character?


Just a few questions to make up my mind. If what I understand is correct than I would be dissappointed in the choice the gaming community is trying to take because I can clearly see alot of people agree with you. Other than that if you answer my questions I appreciate it and again you did a great job in creating a impressive thread.

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Originally Posted by Ayerc

When I was typing it up, I figured it may be subbed on any main, not just the GLA tree. I hadn't thought about a three tier system though.

I'm a believer that if I know a skill, I know it, regardless of my profession. Of course that skill should have a greater affinity when used as a main. Integrating a third tier is just an extension of that, as (in the example) GLA is the main class, PUG is not. I could make that compromise.

The work definitely has to be there, it should take time and effort to gain bonuses to the base skill. Just like meriting did. I'm not sure I'd limit it to just 10 upgrades, either. Probably capping when the third tier effectiveness matches the original base of 20% (13 upgrades in this case)? If the guild cost is multiplied for subsequent bonuses, the diminished return would be naturally prohibitive, unless someone really wanted to invest in it. Starting at a 2k GM base with a multiplier of 1.25 would mean you'd need about 66,500 GM total to reach your tenth upgrade. And over 137k to reach 13 (that's a cost of about 29,100 GM for the 12>13 upgrade of +1%). But when you're at endgame with nothing better to do...why not. If you want a PUG with Soul Eater at full effectiveness, it just adds to the uniqueness as there would be very few people to take it that far, also making that character a little more epic in that regard.


Edit response:

It's somewhat in the game already. But not everything in the game currently is broken either, just needs some tweaking or re-envisioning.

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I just read this post after posting my post and totally agree with this guy!!!

Just so Kuro doesn't go crazy, I'll attempt to try and answer these for you, Vagabond.

1. Yes, assuming you have unlocked both the Dark Knight and Paladin specializations, you will be able to unlock both to their full potential.

2. Sword/Shield and Great Sword are being used as examples here. That's not to say that a DRK won't be able to equip a scythe as a specialization only weapon type.

3. Yes and no to this one. Yes, you only get a certain number of points to spend, but you can reallocate them however you like. There's no need to make a new character to explore all the options, but you can't have all the skills active at the same time.

Jericho and I just discussed an option that may address some of your concerns about limiting cross class choices, have a look at the last few pages for more info.

Edit: Oh, looks like you did have a look. Rockin'.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Again, you're not fixing anything and adding to the mess. Ok so you keep your GLA levels (because we cant make you re-grind) but SE now has to balance this class against the others.

How does GLA stand on its own is a better way to re-phrase the question. By the way.. what you're suggesting is not even specializations they are brand new classes.

Whats stopping someone from taking a ton of CON/THM spells, some attack buffs, etc and calling themselves a DRK? <--- Using our current system.

Correct, nothing is stopping them and its not what is being balanced for.

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I disagree, the whole point of adding Jobs on the classes is to concentrate on different stats and bring in some unique abilities atop of the class you mix it with, and when SE takes out the Point System of Stats and have each class its own set of Stats. Based on the class customizing Jobs will help the player reach their goals. A GLA is not a Paladin since he can still do quite the damage on his own and when equipping a paladin you are sacrificing Att for Def. Also you might want to rank up GLA on its own just to keep the neutral stats.

I understand this is not what you are arguing, but I am a fan of DRK and I leveled CON and THM just to make my DoW classes into a DRK and I had a great deal of fun trying out the different types with ARC, MRD, LNC, PUG and GLA. I was greatly disappointed that even with the Stats I had which favored Mages my drain would do so little damage, plus I do not have the AoE that a THM or CON does (which I completely understand that we need a little restriction to create a balance). I even allocated my elemental stats to favor dark spells following Zam input for Spells attributes which I now am seeing doesnt really make a differents. So It makes sense having a DRK job to equip on any class to improve not only your STR and INT but take away your VIT and MND. The DRK would also improve on your dark elemental stats (or the elemental Stats that dark is based on).

Anyways I am just saying earning a job meaning I went through the quests, did what I did to earn it, or be it I had to skill up the weapon like in FF2 (japan version which is re-release all over the place) just to use it with other class I don't mine as long as I can customize my character and be different from other people. Having a whole bunch of GLA/DRK is not unique and sounds to much FFXI which I agree is a awesome game but I am playing FFXIV for its freedom and not the restrictions.

P.S. I understand everything is just a idea and concept you guys like so I am not trying to bash your thoughts in any way. In truth I believe your idea will bring out more challenge to the game then my own idea as my concept sounds more for soloing than team playing. So please forgive my thoughts on the subject.

Vega, just to clarify, what Kuro originally proposed and what Ayerc and I have been discussing, still allows for the same degree of uniqueness. All the abilities and traits you've been using to construct your own DRK are still in effect here. All we're adding is a few specialized class abilities/traits and a unique weapon type. All those abilities and traits that are already usable on GLA will be usable on GLA: DRK, along with some new ones.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

@northernsky It wasn't really to that comparison post but Cairdaes shameless plugging of an idea he supports. I don't jump in his thread and route viewers this way, I would appreciate it if he doesn't do it here. I thought we agreed to disagree.

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Not trying to kill the mood here, but I have no idea why you would disagree to comparing two proposals. One must be better than the other or if in an extremely rare event that the two proposals are equal where all pros and cons are compared it should come down to majority vote which the people want. Now my reasoning behind this post is that more people flock to the bigger (most posts in) thread and thus ignore/overlook other proposals. Now assuming there is no ego involved into this equation there shouldn't be any hardships comparing proposals and if there is an ego involved then if this threads OP is preferred then this post will be ignored/overlooked. Again I simply want FFXIV to be the best it can be and respect the decision of the proposal the people/SE want.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

These are specializations of the current jobs. Whoever has a 50 in a current job will be able to allot points into whatever classes branch of from them. This cannot be modified to require more grinding because then you run into that problem that I've been asking other people:

"What happens to level 50 players?"

It'll be a logical change once people see how it pans out and get a feel for it. The point is that you don't want to anger your current end-game players because they took the time to grind out their characters. Telling them to go grind some more before they can start focusing on end game content when they're already maxed out is really bad.

^ this has been a big issue for a lot of us when we read the other proposals. They tell you grind an advanced job to perform and I think thats utter bullshit.

If this gets implemented:

- Log in
- Do quests for paths.
- Allot points to a path, spend extra points in the other or use some for cross-base abilities.
- Go do your raid not grind / Do quests for gear (if implemented; my guess is no)


I think what you have a problem with is that people won't know their jobs and to that I say.. They've been mix-matching skills to try to become those same jobs; I'm just making the choice more obvious and giving them bonuses for it.

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Obviously something needs to be changed here from what is currently in place (forcing people to rank everything because skills to make the best option for most roles is spread out on multiple classes). This is VERY BAD. The fix for this is to heavily penalize every action individually based on class, because there is basically no penalty other than cool down times or restricting spells from being AOEd.

This OP's proposal is fixes this, but I think there is a better way.

Now as for Rank 50's having to "grind" some more it's inevitable even with this OP's proposal because it would be similar to FFXI's merit system. I guarantee you SE will force you to do something to acquire those talent/merit points.

Granted it is no where near as grand as leveling all classes to Rank 50, but I think the option to be MORE UNIQUE not MORE POWERFUL should still be there for those who Ranked multiple classes or who still wants to rank multiple classes.

As for the Title System this can easily be compared to leveling a sub job for your main job in FFXI. Was that too much effort to put into making yourself stronger (assuming there won't be a hardship of constantly forming a party to do so)?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Think of GLA specced into PLD as the PLD/WAR and GLA specced into DRK as a PLD/NIN in meleeburns (er only stronger). It's sorta the same thing its just that I'm using very cut and dry names for them. You hear a DRK or PLD and you immediately know what they do/roles they fill because you cannot accept/comprehend otherwise. We've been getting fed this for 20 years now and I feel its something they need to go back to for those players that felt they couldn't relate with the current classes and left.

Maybe you're right and there should be some sort of extra progression but trust me - another grind is not one.

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My biggest concern here is PLD can do /WAR, /NIN, /BLU, /RDM, and /DNC effectively (and I know you were making a different example to PLD and DRK but I think having specializations that determine your role instead of a combination that determines your role is more limiting).

Also, I hate grinding as well. Now you can see from my signature than I don't have many nor even 1 rank 50 class so my opinion isn't biased but I'm thinking of people who have 1 rank 50 and people who have multiple rank 50 classes as well. If you restrict players to being only able to equip certain actions up to a certain rank (which I'm assuming isn't rank 50) and you are forcing this class to these 2 roles in the end here are my problems.

1. 1 Rank 50 Class: Let's say this guy wants to be a specific role and chose any class because any class can do every role. Well the role he likes and the class he picked now can't work because the two specializations the class he chose doesn't contain that role.

2. Multiple Rank 50 Classes: You can compare this to FFXI having multiple Lv. 75 jobs, but I think we can do better than FFXI. Also, there is the issue of players doing this not just to have multiple classes/roles that they can play, but to use actions from other classes to enhance their play style. I understand that with your solution that this is forfeited and I respect that (since this appeals to more players than it hurts), but I think this too can be avoided with a different solution.

Now my thoughts are that FFXI had many obstacles/challenges that made grinding worth while like events for all levels such Promyvion, Missions, quests, etc. while WOW/western MMO have dungeons for party play as an alternate to solo questing grinding.

FFXI's biggest issue is creating a party (for party grinding or events) which I don't think would be an issue with a community the size of WOW and probably not with a community the size of FFXIV especially if it attracted more players.

Now if FFXI had no hardship making a party would it be a better grind or still a worse grind than other MMOs? This is of course based on opinion.

Now if FFXIV had these options for "grinding" would you still be against allowing other players to have more options for higher end class action (not huge advantage if you penalize each action individually based on class used rather than almost no penalties).

Options:
1. You can still solo mobs for the same amount of SP.
2. You can make FFXI style parties for increased SP. Perhaps x2.
3. You can do dungeon raids for SP equivalent to that of WOW.
4. You can do events for SP (greater than that percentage wise to FFXI).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

I need to finish laying out the abilities on here: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...kaze01/wip.png

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I really like the look of this for a talent tree/merit point system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

But then you run into the PLD stigma - "but PLDs are tanks waaah waaaah" etc etc and we lose either way. lol

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I really don't like the feeling of one class is the best (by far) at a role. I prefer multiple classes should be able to fill in roles, but with great differences. Right now every class can do the same exact thing with same effectiveness on every action assuming you have the same stats.
One example from FFXI for roles is this PLD/WAR vs RDM/NIN for tank that depicts how even a mage class can do this and be completely different and against something you normally wouldn't expect and that I find makes a game more fun and interesting. Here is a video from YouTube showing a RDM tanking a Wyrm to show it's possible (not sure if there is after Lv. 75 level cap or not but it's possible at least at Lv. 75 if not higher).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoVtPBPpp7k

The proposal I prefer which I believe can fix the same issues as this thread's OP by forcing roles and exclusive actions (through Titles, equivalent to specializations) as well as allowing a "sandbox" of actions to choose from for class uniqueness while allowing multiple classes to fill multiple roles as well as compliment anyone with 1 Rank 50, Multiple Rank 50s, and those w/o any Ranks 50s and w/o forcing any of the 3 to feel like they "need" to level another/all classes to be better is:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...pecializations


EDIT: Also, if you try to give 3+ specializations to every class in order to fill every/most roles then that is more work for SE (especially compared to the Title System) and makes it even harder for adding new classes/pet classes.

Here is a link to a page on where I describe FFXIV's biggest issue.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...zations/page10

I have been reading back a few pages to see the discussion to see if I could find an answer, and I seen DRK, PLD or any Job so be it, is just a title to change the stats around and introduce separate skills with no rank on its own except unlocking the skills am I right?

So my only remaining complaint which is my main one is why restrict the job to just 1 class? Unless you mean it takes one class to unlock it, but you can freely equip said job with any class within its Discipline with the freedom of using a spear, an axe, a sword and shield.

As I said before when I use different abilities with different classes they just don't work the same as it would with the original class so that's why I would like to equip a job to enchance what I am missing to use the ability of other jobs with better effect.

So what you are saying I can have the DRK abilities then equip some of it's abilities without having DRK job equip on LNC with a LNC class? Kinda like the same system we have on now, no?

I have been reading Ayerc about earning skills for an ability be it fighting more or paying more for an ability to be better attune to it and not worry about having said ability not working as well with a different class. I could understand that but just because somebody doesn't like the idea of a ARC/DRK doesn't mean I don't wanna try it for fun knowing I am gonna take a hit in Stats and accuracy. Main thing about DRK job I would see my self getting it other than just equiping spells around to get the same effect on any class is the improvement of Stats and improvement of usage of dark spells. Which is why I would like to equip a job on a class rather than picking its abilities for others.

Hahahah writing all this sounds like sub jobs when I know its not. Maybe I need to read more anyways I am confusing myself and probably for the best I quit on this good luck guys!!! Thanks for the answers Jericho and Ayerc