Trends in content types and faux difficulty

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Originally Posted by Phen

Lockouts aren't the answer there has to be something else. At least not the 24+ ones. Enough to make it unfeasible to spam but short enough to prevent "id like to play this game and do that dungeon I like but I actually cant for 36 more hours." Also that obviously applies to wins only or otherwise people will never take any chances or experiment.

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It's a matter of the method applied.

WoW Dungeons
- Dedicated server for instances
- No time limit
- guaranteed level-appropriate drops
- Regular dungeons can be "reset" a certain number of times for spammage
- Heroic dungeons reset every 24 hours
- Numerous quest objectives tie into things that go on in the dungeons (pre-Cataclysm. I'll be the first to say the changes to dungeon-related quests in Cata was pretty damn terrible)
- (Post-TBC) Secondary loot system that encouraged repeating dungeons (Badges in 2.0 and 3.0, Justice/Valor Points in 4.0)

FFXIV Dungeons
- Time limit
- Non-guaranteed drops
- Some GC objectives are loosely tied to the dungeons in the form of repeatable quests
- "Speed Runs" implemented as an attempt to create difficulty
- Apple

XIV still has room for improvement.

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Originally Posted by Isaaru

Lux... no.

This is how it works without a wall of text. The chance of failing all 100 times with a 97% failure rate is 0.97^100. This is equivalent to 0.0476 or 4.76% chance. The chance of failing 10 times with the same rate of failure is 0.97^10 which equals 0.7374 or 73.74%. You have a lower chance of failure with more repetitions.

Yes in the end everyone will have the same rate of drop after massive amounts of runs, but you will not gain more equipment per day only running 10 times than a person who will run 100 times. It's the same proportional loss no matter what. You succeed 3% of the time and lose 97%.

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I never said you would get more equipment per day. What I am saying is that the more time you invest per day in losing odds, the more time you lose per day. Is it proportionally the same? Sure. But wasting 10 hours is a lot more exhausting than wasting 2 hours. You continue repetitions, but in measured amounts that wont leave you burned out. That was the point.

As far as statistics through repetition goes, I appreciate the lesson but I fail to see how that affects the probability of individual outcomes. All you've told me is that a given probability of failing x number of times/100. Does that mean attempt 50 has a higher probability of success than attempt 15? Does attempt 99 have higher chance of success than attempt 2? From what I've read and understood, probability of individual outcomes will always remain constant. Calculating the probability of a series of outcomes (ie getting 6 drops out of 100 runs, or failing 100 times out of 100) should not affect the probability of individual outcomes (each successive run). If this is grossly incorrect then please do more math for me. But I can't find a damn thing that states otherwise at the moment.

Anyway looking at the coin flip example I appreciate the correction. Still, it doesn't change the fact that spamming something doesnt help you in a low-odds game. What matters is consistent trials. If you consistently try you will succeed, but you can't be consistent if you get burnt out and quit. Hence, its quite foolish to waste 97% of your effort in ways that will burn you out. It is much smarter, and equally as effective I might add, to spread out your trials in a way that failure will not have much of an effect on you.

EDIT: As for the random hater who contributed nothing intelligent to the discussion, I love you. No homo. And i'm sorry but being corrected does not shut me up. Call me incessant if you will, but as a smart man I really have no fear of being corrected and saying something incorrect. It only makes me smarter. Only children or ppl with low-self esteem run away from discussions because they were incorrect about something. C'mon son lol...don't place your insecurities on me.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

It's a matter of the method applied.

WoW Dungeons
- Dedicated server for instances
- No time limit
- guaranteed level-appropriate drops
- Regular dungeons can be "reset" a certain number of times for spammage
- Heroic dungeons reset every 24 hours
- Numerous quest objectives tie into things that go on in the dungeons (pre-Cataclysm. I'll be the first to say the changes to dungeon-related quests in Cata was pretty damn terrible)
- (Post-TBC) Secondary loot system that encouraged repeating dungeons (Badges in 2.0 and 3.0, Justice/Valor Points in 4.0)

FFXIV Dungeons
- Time limit
- Non-guaranteed drops
- Some GC objectives are loosely tied to the dungeons in the form of repeatable quests
- "Speed Runs" implemented as an attempt to create difficulty
- Apple

XIV still has room for improvement.

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Well obviously, and theres certainly ways WoW's raids were flawed too. My brief foray ran me into some which you see already here: do that quest/objective/etc some other time we dont have time (even on something like a non-batraal darkhold). Alot of guarenteed stuff is vendor trash- etc etc etc.

There are things to learn there too though dont get me wrong.

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Originally Posted by Phen

Well obviously, and theres certainly ways WoW's raids were flawed too.

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Definitely. Pre-4.0 you could "steal" another guild's raid ID by running with them, then entering the instance with your own group, clearing it while the guys that started the raid are offline so that by the time they log on to finish the raid, their ID had already killed all bosses so they had to wait until the next reset. There recently was a bit of a contreoversy because someone stole a server first kill for Madness of Deathwing by using the personal raid ID system implemented with 4.0. No system is perfect, really.

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My brief foray ran me into some which you see already here: do that quest/objective/etc some other time we dont have time

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This kinda depends. If it was really out of the way (like killing the Chief Architect guy in Blackrock Depths when your group was there to kill the Emperor on the opposite side of the dungeon), I can understand.

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Alot of guarenteed stuff is vendor trash- etc etc etc.

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This is more a result of the lack of a way to shard stuff that drops into sellable items. At least in WoW you could get enchanting materials from drops no one wanted, provided you had an enchanter in your group.

You could implement something similar. Maybe have the group leader receive a "Volatile Materia Assimilator" upon entering a dungeon, which can be used to break down any drops no one wants/needs to materia or dark matter or something. The assimilator would "break" after exiting the dungeon, forcing you to get a new one upon re-entry.

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Originally Posted by TerahValeth

but please extend it some other way (ie: 1-3 day lockouts, or whatever) that doesn't just burn everyone out.

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Originally Posted by Phen

Lockouts aren't the answer there has to be something else. At least not the 24+ ones. Enough to make it unfeasible to spam but short enough to prevent "id like to play this game and do that dungeon I like but I actually cant for 36 more hours." Also that obviously applies to wins only or otherwise people will never take any chances or experiment.

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"Some other way, or whatever." I'm being purposely vague. It is not helpful to the game developers for us to tell them HOW to fix things in the game, only THAT it needs fixing. So I'm not telling them what solution to use, they are the game developers, we are the consumers. It is our job to enjoy the game; their's to ensure we have the greatest chance to do so.

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Originally Posted by TerahValeth

"Some other way, or whatever." It is not helpful to the game developers for us to tell them HOW to fix things in the game, only THAT it needs fixing. So I'm not telling them what solution to use, they are the game developers, we are the consumers. It is our job to enjoy the game; their's to ensure we do.

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Well they can only ensure enjoyment to a degree, since people have different needs when it comes to enjoyment. For instance, there are those that love spamming content, and there are those that absolutely hate it. SE is taking steps to appeal to both crowds of pplz so I think everything will be fine. Right now the anti-spammers are more vocal because they spammed something when no one forced them to spam it. Just because content is spammable doesn't mean it has to be spammed. At some point players need to take personal responsibility for their enjoyment of the game. Too many players lack self-control and common sense in such gross amounts that they blame the developers for their current frustrations/burn out/etc. The game does a rather good job of giving you plenty of options and avenues in regards to gear, due to all of the side-grades, so there's no living reason to spam anything when you don't want to....outside of personal ones. And let me tell, devs can't fix personal problems. The reason for burnout has nothing to do with devs, it has everything to do with players. Devs can't fix that.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

The game does a rather good job of giving you plenty of options and avenues in regards to gear, due to all of the side-grades, so there's no living reason to spam anything when you don't want to....

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Plenty of options that ALL focus on luck (so no variety there). The burnout doesn't necessarily come from hitting Vale hours a day, it's when you vary your activities and realize they are all the same. It's the same luck>skill everywhere I look. There are really no options for those that don't want spamable content. I'm glad you are happy w/ the way the game is, but where are the "options" for the rest of us?

Also, idk why you chimed in, but my reply was to clarify that I wasn't telling SE HOW to fix things, it had nothing to do w/ the subject of your response.

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Originally Posted by TerahValeth

Plenty of options that ALL focus on luck (so no variety there). The burnout doesn't necessarily come from hitting Vale hours a day, it's when you vary your activities and realize they are all the same. It's the same luck>skill everywhere I look. There are really no options for those that don't want spamable content. I'm glad you are happy w/ the way the game is, but where are the "options" for the rest of us?

Also, idk why you chimed in, but my reply was to clarify that I wasn't telling SE HOW to fix things, it had nothing to do w/ the subject of your response.

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I chimed in because I felt like chiming in, I find it fun. You guys were having a discussion, it looked like fun, so here I am. And there are options actually, I can think of 2 that have absolutely nothing to do with luck at all: GC gear and Garuda weapons. Oh yeah there's also the new class gear-sets as well. Course the latter is only really awesome if you double meld it all, so there is a wee luck involved. Even if you just single meld it though, its still a viable piece of gear. Not the best, but still viable. That aside though, GC gear and Garuda weapons are some of the best out there with sanctions/set bonuses. Are there lots of options? No. But I'm sure you understand these sorts of things take time. They are slowly adding in gear/content variety, so the best remedy is a bit of patience.

Btw if you want my honest opinion, the whole thing is blown WAY out of proportion. Skill > all in this game at the end of the day, barring any significant discrepancies in gear. For now all you can do is work with whatever you can get that doesn't cause you pain and suffering, all the while waiting for better options.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

A mentality that carried over from FFXI.

Anyway, this is where we can get a little philosophical, though at the same time it may be a hint of what is to come. Simply put, choices and things like the job system are counter-productive in settings such as these. Because the moment an alternative exists that makes things easier to bear, it WILL be the preferred course of action. The fact that FFXI players are conditioned to go with the preferred strategies/set ups and almost never stray from those "standards" does little to help. That's why you have guys like me who have played other MMOs with more openness in group compositions and strategies going "huh?". And why we end up arguing for more inclusive content instead of niche gameplay.

In all honesty, I don't know what can be changed to encourage people to start strategizing and using more varied group comps. As long as stacking classes has no real negatives to it, that's what some will lean to. As I mentioned in another thread, it's one thing when having 9 paladins in a 25-man raid is a freak ocurrence and generates lulz. It's another when you're purposely stacking classes to clear content.

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I agree with this. I played WoW for a bit in 06/07 which many considered the golden age of the game and at the time I did like how inclusive it was to all classes. Of course back then I preferred the flexibility of FFXI's job system but in retrospect WoW did a fabulous job of making the game inclusive to those who played various classes. I was never turned down for various raids or dungeons even though I played a ret PLD which back then was apparently among the weakest.

I'm sure forcing you to play as one job had a lot to do with this, but it was fantastic being able to contribute to a party no matter what you brought. It was a great feeling having a varied set-up and having everyone say, "ok let's do this no problem!"

Compare that to FFXIV where there will always be somebody who speaks up or says outright, "we need more blm for this, we need more ranged/warriors for this, lol drg and DD War GTFO it's too dangerous to melee."

This may seem off-topic but when combined with the luck based system, short dungeons and speed run bullshit, it adds very little incentive to the player base to try and do things differently as content fatigue sets in. Eventually it becomes, "lets get this over with as fast as possible so load up on blms for CC so we can speed run this as fast as possible."

Finally there was a much more active community in WoW back when I played in 06/07 and though I preferred FFXI to WoW back then it was a fantastic feeling being able to group up with a bunch of randoms with a weird set up and still accomplish a dungeon through hardwork and perseverance. It was not easy back then but Blizzard did a fantastic job of making each class viable for various raids. In addition while drop rates were rare they were nowhere near as absurd as this games and there was a variety of content available to give people options instead of having to grind out the same thing over and over again.

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Originally Posted by TerahValeth

That's all fine and well, but it has some of us worried that their model of "extending content through shitty drop rates" will be the status quo post 2.0. And the reason that that worry has grown (the reason some of us are here now, asking whether this is the direction they have planned for us post 2.0) is that the more recent content (Vale/CC/Hamlet) has even lower drop rates than prior content (Dark Hold/Ifrit/Moogle). I see a trend like that, and I can hope that it's better post 2.0, but I also see what direction it's going in and can't help worrying about it.

I understand that they aren't going to be coming out w/ any groundbreaking content on these crappy servers, it's that the method they are using to falsely extend content is a slap in the face for anyone who brings their A-game but gets unlucky over and over, especially since some of us have stuck with the game since the beginning through the horrible horrible times and the good, holding onto our faith in our new dev. team. I'm not saying the content is going to be the greatest right now, but please extend it some other way (ie: 1-3 day lockouts, or whatever) that doesn't just burn everyone out.

Lastly, for anyone who replies to my post saying "well don't run it as often", go read the rest of this thread first, that topic has been thoroughly covered and Issaru has the math to back me up.

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Oh, don't get me wrong, the new servers could still be crap and the content they continue to give us after 2.0 could be just as shitty as some of the things we have been given so far. My point though is, asking them not to add more stuff like this to 2.0 is moot since they probably already have the next years worth of content done and in the testing phase (man if they don't they are gonna be in deep trouble after relaunch). Our only option is to wait and see how it is in a few months and decide to continue playing or quit after that. I don't feel like we can change a whole lot of whats about to happen in the next 5 months, its already been decided upon.