DPS is the job of DPS.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The sad(der) reality:
Even in raids, there are tanks that still don’t use their cooldowns.

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Was trying to help a friend with an o2s weekly a couple weeks ago. The other tank that joined was a turtle pld that insisted on pulling for some reason, and literally popped 0 cds. They died on every evil sphere and then rage quit along with one of the healers.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

In the context that I see, the +20% is a benefit when active, not a 0% penalty when it is not. I do get what you're saying though, and when trying to push tank DPS as much as possible, you are indeed penalized having Grit active. I just have difficulty assigning it the term "penalty"

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There will never be/should never be a scenario in which a DRK is using ONLY Grit, and never using Darkside with it, though. There will also never be/should never be a scenario in which a DRK is NOT using Darkside. Especially now that SE removed the MP drain from the ability. The “+20% when active” isn’t entirely relevant because Darkside should always be active. That being said, Grit+Darkside may cancel each other out in terms of loss and gain, but Darkside alone would still be +20%. Grit is still a damage penalty in that sense because it cancels out the gain.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Unless they buffed darkside to +20%, there's still a -5% penalty.

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They did buff Darkside up at Stormblood launch. It’s now +20% as opposed to Heavensward’s +15%. :3

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I mean that's still on the tank for being a dummy. It's also odd that they'd be picky like that; why put the extra effort in for dps if you're not gonna put the extra effort for cooldowns to live and do dps?

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It's because they expect the healer to adjust. I won't lie, in most situations outside EX/Savage an on-point healer can heal through just about anything, even after near wipe or tank-is-dead situations. Content outside endgame gives a moderate window to recover from those situations so long as you don't panic. I even get the tank philosophy of, "I pull big unless the healer shows they can't handle it."

The problem though is that unlike stances, there is no penalty for using defensive cooldowns other than the CD timer. Not using them during high damage situations is simply a dick move, and extremely selfish. Their e-peen measurements won't be reduced by helping the healer out a little bit by using those CDs.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I mean that's still on the tank for being a dummy. It's also odd that they'd be picky like that; why put the extra effort in for dps if you're not gonna put the extra effort for cooldowns to live and do dps?

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Well my dear Dualgunner

After lvling my AST from 60-70, doing countless of sirensongs, shisuis, bardams and the occasional...doma? (lvl 67 dgn) and being partnered up with different tanks, I've reached the conclusion that somewhere in the back of their head, there's this thing that convinces them of two things:

-the best mitigation cds should be saved for oh shiii- moments. (The best part of this here is when it never gets used from start to finish because they kept it mentally in reserve).
-They literally think the healer can outheal the dmg because for some reason or other, if the mobs aren't hitting as my "insert raid here" joke, then its fine.

My dear tanks.

Your cds are not one time per dgn use cds. For example, there's literally 3 places you can use HG in Bardam when you're mass pulling. Saving it for "I'm about to die" is kinda pointless. There are no dgn bosses that will put you in that situation so long as you stick to the basics of engagement (dodging telegraphed attacks, proper cd usage and ofc getting healed). On the other hand, mass pulling has a much higher death rate when you're not using your cds.

Also my dear tanks, while every healer's potency healing is pretty damn huge...the speed at which they heal isn't. IIRC, Presence of mind and Lightspeed are the go-to skills for rapid healing. We can technically add lustrate from SCH. Really, really nice for that initial mass pull. Not so great for the second mass pull (I'm pretty sure the first two skills I mentioned would still be on cooldown by then.)

You're not doing anyone any favors when you're saving your defensive skills.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

There will never be/should never be a scenario in which a DRK is using ONLY Grit, and never using Darkside with it, though. There will also never be/should never be a scenario in which a DRK is NOT using Darkside. Especially now that SE removed the MP drain from the ability. The “+20% when active” isn’t entirely relevant because Darkside should always be active. That being said, Grit+Darkside may cancel each other out in terms of loss and gain, but Darkside alone would still be +20%. Grit is still a damage penalty in that sense because it cancels out the gain.



They did buff Darkside up at Stormblood launch. It’s now +20% as opposed to Heavensward’s +15%. :3

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Idubbbz-hey-thats-pretty-good.jpg

I concede then and apologize, but stand with HyoMin ^_^

Everyone seems to want some simple rule of thumb or some words of wisdom to live by.

As in: "Healers shouldn't have to dps, they *Heal*" or some such... I mean, it's not... "wrong"?

I mean it's just life though, it's scary and confusing. Sometimes up is down and all that. Unfortunately everyone has to try their best and just use their best judgement. If someone's best judgement is they wanna do the same thing they always do then they aren't going to get very far in any multiplayer game. That's why I get annoyed when people get bullheaded that healers *must* dps or a healer feels like they aren't required to at all. Surely though, I'm not any of your's momma (that I know of, because...aliens?!) so I don't really get involved in anyone's business hardly, unless I see you a lot. If someone I see once in a dungeon isn't doing what I think they should do, I usually overlook it unless they are doing it intentionally to give me a hard time (but then I'll just leave and re-queue in 30 minutes...will give me a excuse to craft some food/potions for raid). If the same thing happens in a static I'm in I might say something. If it happens with a close friend I'm sure I'd have a discussion with them if they felt like it.

But yea, besides that, if I did take a issue with someone I didn't know and I thought I could use some of my internalized existential horror and twist it into some kind of humor to emphasize my point I might... But only then! Because...jokes? Honey is much easier to swallow than vinegar after all. But if it's a bad joke, then it's more like a spoonful of gasoline... Well, life is also risk I suppose.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

-the best mitigation cds should be saved for oh shiii- moments. (The best part of this here is when it never gets used from start to finish because they kept it mentally in reserve).

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Since we're talking about df players, I'm 99% certain this isn't the reason why tanks don't use their immunity cds, but in my experience, most healers in expert roulette will continue healing me when I pop living dead...even when I tell them before the pull that I'll be using it. I've seen a whm spam cure 1 on me after I popped ld, and after walking dead came up they immediately bene'd me then went back to spamming cure 1. And either 3 or 4 times I died because the healer would just spam heals as soon as ld goes up, and the incoming damage would barely be more than what they're healing so ld wears off right before I go to 0 hp.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

There will never be/should never be a scenario in which a DRK is using ONLY Grit, and never using Darkside with it, though. There will also never be/should never be a scenario in which a DRK is NOT using Darkside. Especially now that SE removed the MP drain from the ability.

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I know! It was one of the first edgelording lessons I learned when I kept swapping between them before reading the tooltip. All the guides I read were 3.0 DRK, so for the first 5 levels or so, I actually played DRK like 3.0 DRK :p Luckily, those levels were spent with my squadron, which is precisely why I chose to only tank with them or FC mates in the beginning.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

20% when active” isn’t entirely relevant because Darkside should always be active. That being said, Grit+Darkside may cancel each other out in terms of loss and gain, but Darkside alone would still be +20%. Grit is still a damage penalty in that sense because it cancels out the gain.

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I'm not arguing with you. And I am not trying to provide situations where DS should not be active. I'm only stating why I don't/didn't see it as a penalty. But I am also factoring overall group DPS, and whether or not dropping Grit truly benefits this DPS if healer DPS is sacrificed as a result. Of course, I am talking about any content where the instance can't be facerolled, and when all participants playing optimally, DPS is shifted between the offensive/defensive mindset of the healer and tank.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Issue with your numbers is you're equating healer dps to tank dps. That's not gonna work well since tanks do much more damage than healers. I'd amend your numbers to 20% for tanks and 10% for healers as better ballpark numbers.

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The numbers are irrelevant if the group wants the healer to heal, or the tank to only tank. The point of the thread was a 'call' for a change in PUG mentalities. Statics and premades are NOT going to do what you see in PUGs. They're going to do whatever it is they think is best, which isn't always what PUGs want.

PUGs want fast but convenient runs. Which means push the envelope but no so far as to step outside their comfort zone.

The contradiction happens when you have a healer who wants to damage and people who think healers ought to heal. Lets be honest here. The reason people don't want healers doing damage isn't because they're afraid the heals won't go through. The reason is they don't wish for the healer role (and tank role for some as well) to be measured like DPS. DPS Roles in MMOs by their very nature are competitive. Its an aggressive role, a role where your duty is to put out as many numbers as possible while staying alive.

People are uncomfortable with the idea of that competitiveness being present in Tank and Healer roles. That's the real issue. They want to be measured on these simple facets:

1. Did the tank hold agro. Tank did good.
2. Did no one in the group die? Healer did good.

But imagine if you had to do those while pushing numbers. Now a tank can be clearly measured against another tank as well as healer can be measured against other healers.

Did everyone stay alive? Great, both healers did this. Now lets see which one did more DPS. Uh oh!
Did the tanks hold agro? Great, both tanks did that. Now lets see which one did more DPS. No! You can't bring up the parses!

And you could see why people would be worried. Pushing numbers is dangerous. Time it poorly and you or someone else drops. Then your primary role is definitely in question.

This is my opinion. For what its worth. Its irrelevant since groups ultimately decide by majority purpose. But I'm going to show where I stand so people aren't quick to get offended or defensive.. many probably haven't read to this point before responding, will be interesting to call them out on that.

I personally don't really care if a Tank drops defensive stance to do damage, or a healer drops a few GCD's for damage. As long as they serve their primary role. I'm golden. If they throw some damage in to push things along faster. Its just gravy on top. If they don't, it won't bother me. To be quite frank, and a bit narcissistic. I can do enough damage to pull a group through in a reasonable amount of time for everything that requires 4 players. That's assuming the other DPS was alive enough to press accept on the queue (he can lick his monitor for the next 15-20 minutes if they want), the tank keeps stuff off me, and the healer keeps the tank alive, and me as well for those unavoidable damage mechanics.

And that's the PUG content. 90% of it. One DPS who knows somewhat what they are doing, one licking their monitor, a healer watching bars, and a tank getting things attention. That's all you need. I don't get why there is thread after thread about this. On one hand I sort of agree with the peeps who don't want to DPS in non-Roles. But I can't because they are being Dishonest. If every GCD was needed for a heal, and every pull would destroy a tank out of tank stance. I could see their argument.

Its not like that. They know that too. But they go on about how tanks should tank and healers should heal, cross their arms, stick out their lower lip, and give you a look like its the 11th Commandment. I would dare say if they would come out and be honest, and say they simply want to play a role that isn't measured in its numbers, that more people would be considerate to their position. But they're being dishonest and people can sense there's BS going around. ANd that is why some are being rather ugly about it in their responses. Can't blame them. Liars and Frauds are right there with Thieves.

Not calling anyone a liar here. At worst, many of you are fibbing. Still not a great thing to do though. Just be honest and humble. Just ask your groups and this general community not to expect you do well at damage. They might surprise you. And if they act like jerks, then you can assume a moral high ground. As I said, I personally don't care what anyone else's numbers are in PUG content. Just my own.

Of course this WHOLE dynamic changes when we talk about content a little bit beyond what PUGs can manage.. you know, like Savage stuff. But that is beyond the scope of this thread. Roles aren't set in stone there, and class abilities become more important. And community opinion means squat to statics.

Shouldn't all these dps-threads be in the dps-forum instead?