Do Something About Duty Finder Already

You are forgetting the fact that there isn't very much content at endgame for players to enjoy long term. Much of the playstyle is repetitive, which can make someone bored of seeing the same thing over and over again, or frustrated in not knowing what to do.

It is one thing to motivate the person to do their best once. it is another to motivate them to do the best on their 100th run of the same content simply for random trinkets. This isn't just "catering to bads", it is also literally getting bored.

The simplest solution is to use PF and find players of your caliber to play with if your are annoyed instead of trying to fix a game design that you consider problematic. May as well start now cause once jump potions are released you're gonna see a lot of your favorite kind of players pugging through DF again if you know what I mean.

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Originally Posted by Owl_Hawk

Anyone who played early FFXI knows one of the best PUG experiences endgame is in that game with other players because those players HAD to fight a mirror match before moving up...and it was difficult for many jobs...It did not discourage me when I failed a few times on my RDM...rather It made me REALLY study my class...discuss with other RDMs and so on which lead to me better using my job in the end. And this is the sort of system I am proposing..minus the need to buy expensive items or wait for 2 hour abilities to be up :p

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I would argue that the reason FFXI had better players was because of the *lack* of in game guidance. It was a community that had to look up what the hell do to for just about anything on sites/forums. So naturally, they'd look up how best to beat Maat on their job.

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

This whole catering to bads has larger effects though.

Do you know what my favorite trial in the game is? Steps of Faith. Everything that led up to that battle as well as everything about that battle was one of the most enjoyable experiences I've ever had in this game. I'd like to have more amazing fights like that, but the amount of bad players that up and DEMANDED to be able to clear without knowing what they hell they were doing means I'll never see another trial like that again.

Even the raids are affected. The best summon in the franchise has a complete shitshow of a raid to his name and it's all thanks to people who DEMANDED to clear the first one without knowing what the hell they were doing.

Where does it end? Are we gonna just breathe funny at the new primal and he shits out top tier gear?

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This occurred because of how the game is designed first and foremost. This game is really imbalanced with grouping as is due to roulettes. This is how Steps of Faith was before:

1. Player's 1, 2, 3, and 4, enter Steps of Faith for the first time.
2. Game doesn't tell you what to do before hand.
3. Player's 5-8 expect you to know what to do because this is their roulette and it's older content that they've done a billion times, despite the fact that these people are new. Player 8 also complains that Trial Roulette gave them "this fight".
4. A whipe happens because players don't know what they're doing and are confused as a lot of stuff is going on.
5. Player 5 gets annoyed and Player 6 gives some light instructions, meanwhile Player 8 rage quits and takes the 30 minute penalty since they have no interest in improving the situation and only care about getting their tomes.
6. A whipe happens again as the DPS is subpar and not enough coordination with the mechanics. The new players still seem at a loss and Player 5 mentions to "go watch a youtube video" and leaves, and then with that, everyone disbands and the DF queue process for each of those players starts over anew.

I think the issue with this game is the reliance on external youtube videos to know what to do combined with the fact that roulettes exist and only make people impatient when the content is designed to be trial and error. This game is heavily designed around getting your quick fix of fun, but when they do create something challenging people, those players (including the good players) are so accustomed to their quick fix that they get impatient and leave when things aren't going their way because they want their instant gratification of tomes.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

This occurred because of how the game is designed first and foremost. This game is really imbalanced with grouping as is due to roulettes. This is how Steps of Faith was before:

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Not to nitpick but while your example may apply to more convoluted encounters like Raids and Ex Primals which are almost entirely blind with their directions...

Steps of Faith is literally the one trial in the whole game that painstakingly shouts orders about every single aspect of the encounter via fly-text boxes that take up nearly the entire center of your screen.

Like... the whole instance is quite literally and without exaggeration NPCs yelling the step by step process of taking down that fight with a boss that walks itself from one end of the arena to the other regardless of any party interaction, meaning it requires zero positional knowledge.

From the second you begin the fight NPCs are screaming at your party to mount cannons, position for dragonkillers (when they're available), when to stun the boss with the chains, when adds appear, etc.

The whole thing plays out on the tightest script in the game.

So once again while your argument may apply to other duties... the main reason people wipe in steps of faith is because players are either

A) That bad at DPS.
B) Wholly unable to communicate.
C) Unable to read the chat filled with NPCs constantly screaming directions at you.

Not knowing the fight beforehand is hardly an excuse.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

The simplest solution is to use PF and find players of your caliber to play with if your are annoyed instead of trying to fix a game design that you consider problematic. May as well start now cause once jump potions are released you're gonna see a lot of your favorite kind of players pugging through DF again if you know what I mean.

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You seem to really not get the point of this thread...it is not because people are not doing the most dps that they can do to squeeze out that 1% more dmg or healers going to Cleric Stance when they can or tank going dps stance when they can to TOTALLY 100% play their jobs correctly...There are other threads wanting this, but I did not mention that at all...I am asking for a system that teaches dps to use AoE when its 4+ adds rather than go to their normal single rotation that they use solo to squeeze out 200-300% more dmg..and they are DAMAGE DEALERS so they should do their roles...Do I love a healer or tank that dpses when it's right? ofc! and I will Comm them at the end if I see them play really well but not if healer is dpsing and ppl are dying for example...The issue other than dps is Healers using more than Cure 1 when a tank is at 30% hp and instead, hey, you are lvl 50 now...you got Cure 2 many levels ago...You have Regen...you have Medica 2..Benediction...etc..it is a tank not using flash or combos to hold aggro but are just using Rage of Halone without the combo because they don't understand how combos work in this game since honestly and to be fair..not many MMOs have a combo system at all nor positionals...no one should go to Harvard or MIT to figure out basics..they can make mandatory tutorial solo trials that make people use the new abilities they have gained every 10 levels to help understand their effectiveness in certain situations...that is all one is asking...not super tight dps checks...just "hey there are 10 adds on the tank..take them out before they explode!" and when they fail because they only used single targets they go "hmm.how can I beat this? let me see..." and read that "Oh! I have an AoE! because many people dont read the whole tool tip and just look at potency. Upon failure there can be a pop up screen that lists tips to improve on that job using the skills they have so far.

And using PF for what? To do dungeons as well? People complain about no tanks in DF and when a tank WANTS to use DF you tell them to use PF. I would normally go with PF for Savage and EX fights but really did not have time for all that on that day..only had time for 1-2 runs and it would be more rude to waste 7 other people's time when I have to leave because I wanted that 1 run so DF is best suited for that situation...And I know there will be people who are new to fight and didnt bother watching a guide...all I am asking for..at the VERY LEAST...is that people in DF are in their >>JOBS<< and know what their abilities DO...I am not asking for top 1% of the world type of skill and neither are many on these forums. We just don't want people who would fail a lvl 40 dungeon or lvl 50 due to lack of Job or skill awareness...in a high difficulty high end Savage fight or Dungeons under "Expert"...is that REALLY so much to ask for? like asking for a police officer to get training in order to pass a test to know how to use a gun or to put someone down with little harm or knows how to drive the cruiser they recieve or a doctor to know how to screen for symptoms? Is it so hard to ask people to just play their BASIC role? And not be a doctor with 1000 PhDs or a Robocop who can shoot someone at 1000 miles away? Why always the extremes? There are people who just want the MIDDLE. All many of us want is for people to know BASICS of the job...the argument of players being better or worse will always happen even if its within margins of 0.001%...this is not the discussion of this thread...the discussion is: If someone is NOT qualified to enter a specific dungeons...they should NOT be allowed to enter and burden others period. And the developers should use the data of other good players to make a regimen to help those who may need more time to understand (which is OK!!!)...But currently many including myself are frustrated with the lack of anything being done for these players and all I keep hearing is "Don't DF...Quit the game"...But if others said that to these players "Don't DF..Quit the game" there would be outrage...

I don't want to quit..neither do I want those players to quit...I want a system that helps them get the abilities they should have and basic knowledge on how to use those abilities and their proper effects in different situations. That is really it.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

Not to nitpick but while your example may apply to more convoluted encounters like Raids and Ex Primals which are almost entirely blind with their directions...

Steps of Faith is literally the one trial in the whole game that painstakingly shouts orders about every single aspect of the encounter via fly-text boxes that take up nearly the entire center of your screen.

Like... the whole instance is quite literally and without exaggeration NPCs yelling the step by step process of taking down that fight with a boss that walks itself from one end of the arena to the other regardless of any party interaction, meaning it requires zero positional knowledge.

From the second you begin the fight NPCs are screaming at your party to mount cannons, position for dragonkillers (when they're available), when to stun the boss with the chains, when adds appear, etc.

The whole thing plays out on the tightest script in the game.

So once again while your argument may apply to other duties... the main reason people wipe in steps of faith is because players are either

A) That bad at DPS.
B) Wholly unable to communicate.
C) Unable to read the chat filled with NPCs constantly screaming directions at you.

Not knowing the fight beforehand is hardly an excuse.

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The callouts need to be designed better because people actually ignore them, also they don't appear long enough for people to pay attention and to be fighting. Players are trained to focus on the content at hand and not what's being said for 95% of the battle content. All this going down when a huge dragon is stomping on you and those people might be afraid they'll get stepped on or die from being away from the healer as they run to the tower.

They might not even see the cannons due the commotion and tremendous AoE's. These are all from my own observations of the many times I've done Steps of Faith.

They could pass a tutorial trial...and go right back to casting fire 1 for mob packa or just bootstrap from the front of all the time.

Because tutorials are one time thing. Even if you put them at different lvl thresholds, they're one time thing. Because this game offers multiple class/job access on a single character, people will be more receptive to playing well with one they like and vice versa

As already proven ingame, those who want to learn don't wait for instructions and how to's to come to them. They seek it on their own. There are those also who like a class and don't give a damn about learning the proper stuff, tutorial be damned.

Stop beating this dead horse and let go already.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

This occurred because of how the game is designed first and foremost. This game is really imbalanced with grouping as is due to roulettes. This is how Steps of Faith was before:
1. Player's 1, 2, 3, and 4, enter Steps of Faith for the first time.
2. Game doesn't tell you what to do before hand.
3. Player's 5-8 expect you to know what to do because this is their roulette and it's older content that they've done a billion times, despite the fact that these people are new. Player 8 also complains that Trial Roulette gave them "this fight".
4. A whipe happens because players don't know what they're doing and are confused as a lot of stuff is going on.
5. Player 5 gets annoyed and Player 6 gives some light instructions, meanwhile Player 8 rage quits and takes the 30 minute penalty since they have no interest in improving the situation and only care about getting their tomes.
6. A whipe happens again as the DPS is subpar and not enough coordination with the mechanics. The new players still seem at a loss and Player 5 mentions to "go watch a youtube video" and leaves, and then with that, everyone disbands and the DF queue process for each of those players starts over anew.

I think the issue with this game is the reliance on external youtube videos to know what to do combined with the fact that roulettes exist and only make people impatient when the content is designed to be trial and error. This game is heavily designed around getting your quick fix of fun, but when they do create something challenging people, those players (including the good players) are so accustomed to their quick fix that they get impatient and leave when things aren't going their way because they want their instant gratification of tomes.

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With Steps of Faith I was seeing people drop it when they got it in roulette without even trying once.
In my opinion the real problem was there was no way to reset the instance early if it was going poorly so players would rather just drop since it was prone to failure and took longer than everything else in the roulette.
Even today when it's been nerfed so much you can kill easily kill it around the second dragonkiller I see people dropping immediately.

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

The callouts need to be designed better because people actually ignore them, also they don't appear long enough for people to pay attention and to be fighting. Players are trained to focus on the content at hand and not what's being said for 95% of the battle content. All this going down when a huge dragon is stomping on you and those people might be afraid they'll get stepped on or die from being away from the healer as they run to the tower.

They might not even see the cannons due the commotion and tremendous AoE's. These are all from my own observations of the many times I've done Steps of Faith.

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The only way the call-outs could be more apparent is if they were voiced but if your argument is that players are just tunnel-visioning too hard on the fight to pay attention then it wouldn't matter how obvious they made them because bad players would ignore them anyway.

It isn't the greatest line of reasoning.

Your entire argument is essentially saying bad players are bad because they're either tunneling too hard on the fight, panicking because of a giant dragon, or not communicating at all none of which can be blamed on the design of the content itself.

It's only design flaw (and it is a massive one) is that it takes so long for the fight to reset even though you can fail the win conditions long before it ever reaches the gate.

And I initially got my first clear in DF group that beat it on our first queue on the day of its release.