Dps As Healer

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

You can't just nonchalantly make all heaing between the healers equal before considering what else they bring. Why would you bring a WHM that can only heal when you can bring an AST that heals as reliably as a WHM while offering buffs?

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Yes...you can and should. If a healer cannot do their main role as well as the others then there is a problem. Healing potency was the reason AST's were not accepted into groups at release. WHM's have never been not accepted into groups due to healing potency since their healing potency is fine.

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Originally Posted by Miste

The healers can vary in healing power slightly from each other but they have to stay relatively close because healing is the main role.

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If you look at my post, and read it, you'll notice I never compared the utility of the healers. I only compared the healing potency and highlighted problems that AST had compared to WHM/SCH at release.

I was talking about healing potency NOT utility so you don't need to jump to defend WHM against me. Wasn't even what I was talking about and you have it quite wrong when it comes to healing potency. Healer jobs are healers they need to all be efficient at healing and close in healing power because it is their main role. Their extra utility is another topic and not what I was talking about at all.

Was there any actual math that translated how the lower potency of AST's heals affected output, or was it all just feelycraft? Anyone have any links with some hard data? Been meaning to Google this myself, since I never found the 5% original lower healing potencies a big deal during 3.0, but never bothered to compare statistically to my WHM at the time (dumb mistake).

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Im not sure how it could confuse you.
I simply would like more skills and abilities on Healers that buff the party or debuff enemies instead of just "do damage yourself".
Channeled abilities that provide massive Attack Speed buffs, short duration buffs that increase the various way your party can deal or take damage. Skills like that on Healers would be nice.
Move away from "Healers" as a Role and push a Support Role instead. Healing damage while boosting the performance of the party.

As for the AST cards, they're on a 30 second cooldown. Of course theres no real way to "focus on cards". Im not sure how you took me to mean that.

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Sorry, in your original comment you didn't make your point very clear, you made it sound like AST's cards currently were a good example of support without DPSing and with their cooldowns and the game's low healing requirements it's just not the case right now. A design shift like that is certainly possible, yes, but it can't be done without seriously nerfing healer DPS and buffing their support options (undesirable for solo play), or raising healing requirements WHILE giving support options that make up the numbers for healers no longer having spare globals to DPS.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Healing potency was the reason AST's were not accepted into groups at release.

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You're only half correct. ASTs weren't accepted into raiding because their healing was weaker, and their buffs were not worth the riskier healing at the time.
This is a very important point to understand. ASTs identity was supposed to be lower healing but strong support. But since their support was so weak that it didn't make a difference whether you used it or not, there was no real benefit to bringing one. Now there is. Cards are very strong now and will more than warrant lower healing potency.

When deciding between AST vs WHM, it should be a choice of wanting high support vs safer healing. AST healing as high as a WHM and offering buffs is a mistake I hope they correct in 4.0.
Obviously they still need to be able to heal content, but it should be a lot harder on AST for the added benefits it brings.

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Originally Posted by Miste

I was talking about and you have it quite wrong when it comes to healing potency. Healer jobs are healers they need to all be efficient at healing and close in healing power because it is their main role. Their extra utility is another topic and not what I was talking about at all.

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-Double post because of SE post limit, sorry.-

This is normally the case, but with AST, you really do need to consider their utility as well, as it directly influences why they had lower healing potency in the first place.

Looking at healing potential in a tunnel is going to lead to some horrible balance issues. If every healer is going to heal for around the same amount, then every healer needs a form of unique support utility .
You can't have AST heal as much as much as WHM and SCH while offering their own utility withhout breaking something.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Now there is. Cards are very strong now and will more than warrant lower healing potency.

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No. Healing potency must be around the same for all healers otherwise certain compositions become unnecessarily harder to heal on.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

but it should be a lot harder on AST for the added benefits it brings.

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No it shouldn't. All healers need to be able to heal properly because it is their main role. All supportbuffs/DPS/utility are extras and those should be balanced between healers as well, but they are separate from just being able to heal properly with proper tuned healing potency.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

If every healer is going to heal for around the same amount, then every healer needs a form of unique support utility

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Which is fine? You don't need to nerf AST's healing potency and make it harder for ASTs to do their main role for the sole reason they are an AST. You can just buff WHM's utility.

You just don't want all healers equal it seems? You want one to be worse at doing their main role just because they have more utility? Instead of just buffing WHM??

No. That makes absolutely zero sense. SCH, WHM, and AST are all healers. Healing is their main priority you can't have one significantly weaker than the others at healing.

Utility is secondary and they could just add some more to WHM.

All this is making me want to abandon my healer for a different class. Or wait until Stormblood comes out and take up RDM or SAM.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

This has been an ongoing debate on the healer forum. Someone made a video where she did Xelphatol with FC members and literally spent 80% of the dungeon jumping around the map and spamming emotes. Her contributions were that low. Does this sound like a good player?

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I'm surprised, but also not so surprised that this subject made it here. Anywho, I believe that video was made to showcase how little healing is needed in that dungeon. I don't believe this person was doing it to deliberately be a jerk. But in either case, the point was established that there are instances where a healer literally has nothing to do but contribute to the damage pool. While that video proved a strong case of healer downtime, there is something else to take into consideration: The group still got the clear, and did so under 20 minutes.

To counter, I posted a video of my own to show how unpredictable damage can be, and casting two holys instead of just one literally made the difference between a wipe and successful trash clear. Granted, the tank did not use any cooldowns, or anything really to save his own ass, but the point was we would not have wiped if I was doing what I was supposed to be doing. Everyone was doing the elementary basics of their role. The tank held agro, the DPS were pushing it, but the healer (me) was too focused on DPS and the result was a wipe.

Those pushing their arguments, no matter what side you're on, seem to see healing as a one-given scenario when it is nowhere near that black and white. There are situations where the tank is literally taking no damage, and the healer is left with nothing to do. There are situations where the tank is taking so much damage that not one gcd can be spared to contribute to DPS. There are also situations where incoming damage is so erratic and unpredictable that a GCD used towards damage is a risk.

In short, there are as many valid reasons for a healer to contribute to DPS as there are for them to stay out of Cleric. A truly good healer assesses the situation they are given and responds accordingly. And that is it. Sometimes you get good healers, and sometimes you don't. Same with tanks and DPS. We are actually fortunate that a healer can be subpar and still get clears. Would you or anyone else prefer the opposite?

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Originally Posted by Amariel34

All this is making me want to abandon my healer for a different class. Or wait until Stormblood comes out and take up RDM or SAM.

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Well if you don't want to play the healer jobs like they are in this game (as in they're supposed to do both healing and DPSing), then yes, maybe better to play a job you actually enjoy playing. :)

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Originally Posted by Miste

You just don't want all healers equal it seems? You want one to be worse at doing their main role just because they have more utility? Instead of just buffing WHM??

Utility is secondary and they could just add some more to WHM.

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I want balance amongst healers very VERY badly, and as a WHM main, I do NOT think WHM needs utility similar to AST.

They do need something unique for themselves, but it shouldn't be dmg utility.
All healers don't need to be equal either. They simply need to be able to heal all content in the game. What they do need to be equal in is their importance to the raid. If a AST heals less than a WHM, but makes up for the lower healing with buffs, that's balanced imo. If a WHM offers much more healing but lacks in utility that's balanced.

What we have now, both healers healing for around the same amount but one offering added utility is completely unbalanced and needs to be looked into.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

All healers don't need to be equal either. They simply need to be able to heal all content in the game.

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Um....do you realize what you just said?

If they simply need to be able to heal all the content in the game then all healers right now are 100% fine.

WHM, AST, and SCH can all heal and complete A12S which is the hardest piece of content atm. So you just invalidated any argument you had about nerfing AST or buffing WHM.

Well I guess that settles that.