Getting refused to EX groups as a DRK

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Originally Posted by Ditto

>Timing Reprisal

LOL

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now this i actually agree on ... its... not exactly ... easy to time reprisal

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Originally Posted by Ditto

If a War does not have 25% more HP than you, it means he has less Vit than you. Defiance does not scale off of others HP< it scales off fo their OWN HP. In equal gear, equal vit numbers, a Warrior will have 25% more HP than the other two tanks.

More often than not, those Warriors you're seeing are wearing full slaying accessories, and are STR attributed.



And if he doesn't have that HP, that means he's probably dealing more damage than you will ever deal as a MT. You only need so much HP before anything over it is wasted.

And a strong offense is the best defense. That is basically what Warriors have ran on since 2.0.

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*sigh*

You do realize that Defiance reduces damage by 25%, right? And that DRK's damage is only reduced by 5% in Grit due to Darkside. So no, WARs even with STR spec are not doing "more damage than we'll ever deal". Because we have a 20% buffer (though some of that is admittedly reduced by other damage buffs WAR has).

And yes, precisely. If he has less HP, even in Defiance, he has less VIT. That's precisely the point.

If a WAR has equal to or less HP than me in Defiance, he is a worse MT. In that case he has FAR less mitigation and might do marginally more damage, not at all enough to make up for it.

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Originally Posted by Ditto

I was making a comparison to Drk. Both tanks are squishier than Paladin overall. Also no, plenty of healers look at numbers, hell healers SHOULD be looking at numbers because numbers are what make up damage, and your HP. If a healer is looking at HP based only on percentages, then there is a serious problem.

But what you said is basically what I'm saying. Warrior tanking stance is like a high risk high reward type of thing. If they know how to use their CD's, IB included, they can be a tanking machine ontop of the mitigation they get, and the bonus healing. If you take 'squishy' in a literal sense, sure Warriors HP jumps around a lot, they obviously get hit harder when they do not have a CD going because they do not have a 20% damage reduction tank stance like Drk does.

Warriors being 'squishier' is an illusion created by large chunks of HP leaving their bar, in return for larger chunks being added to it.

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It's still silly.

A WAR has 10000 hp (8000 hp + defiance), and gets hit for 2500, he now has 7500 hp.
A PLD or DRK has 8000 hp, and gets hit for 2500, this gets mitigated to 2000 so he now has 6000 hp.

If you look at the bar to see how much % hp is left, the result is exactly the same, there's 75% of their HP left no matter how you look at it. If you look at the numbers, the WAR has more total HP left. So you'd think the healer should "feel" safer with the WAR (even though it's actually exactly the same). I have no idea how someone could look at this in action and say the WAR "feels" squishier.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

This is sig worthy, put down the bong.

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If a WAR has equal HP to me as a DRK, then it's true. In that case, Defiance is no longer a match for Grit, as while it's providing mitigation, it's only bringing the WAR up to my level WITHOUT Grit. In that case, the WAR has far less mitigation than a DRK, and is thus a bad MT.

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Saw my first 20k HP WAR in ALEXANDER today.

Anecdotes are Anecdotal.

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Great. That WAR would make an equally good MT to a DRK. Not better though.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

Congratulations on missing the point. lol

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So, you're basically comparing WARs wearing only STR accessories to DRKs wearing VIT ones and you think that's somehow a fair comparison.

If you're going to compare classes, compare their toolkit, don't compare what some random set of players does. Especially when you're comparing to sets of players that have different goals (high HP DRKs in pure VIT vs. moar deepz WARs in pure STR). That's ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

*sigh*

You do realize that Defiance reduces damage by 25%, right? And that DRK's damage is only reduced by 5% in Grit due to Darkside. So no, WARs even with STR spec are not doing "more damage than we'll ever deal". Because we have a 20% buffer (though some of that is admittedly reduced by other damage buffs WAR has).

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Right, and warrior does have the maim buff that grants 20% extra damage, and they have unchained and berserk that scales incredibly togheter, and not to mention the 10% from storms eye.

Or am i missing something here?

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

*sigh*

You do realize that Defiance reduces damage by 25%, right? And that DRK's damage is only reduced by 5% in Grit due to Darkside. So no, WARs even with STR spec are not doing "more damage than we'll ever deal". Because we have a 20% buffer (though some of that is admittedly reduced by other damage buffs WAR has).

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That's not how that works... at all. First of all, the damage multipliers of Darkside and Grit are multiplicative, not additive. That means that a DRK under Grit/Darkside is operating with 92% damage output, not 95%. Additionally, if you're going to make inclusions of Darkside for DRK's damage, you have to include Maim's modifier for WAR. Both should be up at all times anyway. That means that DRK operates at 92% output, and War operates at 90% output. Not a huge difference, until you factor in abilities like Berserk (+50% attack power), Unchained (+33% damage output) and Storm's Eye (-10% target slashing defense), which cause WAR's output to soar, far higher than anything DRK's oGCD attacks can even hope to match.

But hey, making incredibly poor, biased arguments is easy.

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And yes, precisely. If he has less HP, even in Defiance, he has less VIT. That's precisely the point.

If a WAR has equal to or less HP than me in Defiance, he is a worse MT.

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Um... no. Serious question, do you know much about tanking? The worse MT is the one who dies. If an MT has enough health to keep themselves alive, it doesn't matter if they have ten or a million HP. More importantly, the better MT will keep themselves alive while supporting the party more or doing more damage. Both things that WAR does better. And if they don't have to invest in vitality accessories to do it, even better.

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In that case he has FAR less mitigation and might do marginally more damage, not at all enough to make up for it.

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Um... no, they more than make up for it. There's a reason why no serious tank uses vitality gear right now. It's not worth using.

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Originally Posted by dragoelete

key word (err.. number) is 2.0 in 2.0 STR increased parry strength therefore added to your defense.

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The amount of parry strength actual strength gave you was laughable. That was never the reason a War built on damage.

Inner Beasts, and just the satisfaction of hitting like a truck full of truck parts, as well as the unreliability of Parry (The only other build they'd be able to go) is why they did.

The more damage you do, the more you self heal, and the faster the fight ends. The shorter phases are. The harder bosses are pushed. The faster adds die. etc. etc. That is the ultimate defense.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

Great. That WAR would make an equally good MT to a DRK. Not better though.

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I don't see how you come to this conclusion

vs. Physical
Defiance = Grit
Shadowskin > Thrill of Battle + Convalescence (90s cooldown vs. 120s cooldown)
Raw Intuition > Dark Dance
Vengeance > Shadow Wall (2min cooldown vs. 3min cooldown)
Storm's Path > Reprisal

Inner Beast vs.... Convalescence on its own? It's sort of all your left with. DRK basically has no answer to a 20% damage mitigation that can be thrown out every 20s or so.

Winner? WAR, it's not even close

(wanna just throw in foresight for fun? WAR wins that too)

vs. Pure Magical
Defiance = Grit
Thrill of Battle + Convalescence < Shadowskin (90s cooldown vs. 120s cooldown)
Inner Beast = Dark Mind (6s of 20% every 20s or so vs. 10s of 30% every 60s), although i'm being slightly generous here, WAR wins on pure mitigation due to being able to use it much more frequently
Vengeance > Shadow Wall
Storm's Path > Delirium

It's basically a wash. I'd say the vengeance + storm's path advantage outweighs the shadow wall cooldown, but DRK gets an unpaired convalescence which can be useful.

vs. mixed physical & magical
It's basically the physical comparison with delirium & dark mind thrown in.

Inner Beast > Drk mind. It's similar to the comparison above, except inner beast mitigates everything in a mixed environment while drk mind is only good vs. the magic attacks, so Inner Beast wins this.
Storm's Path = Delirium + Reprisal. This is arguably better for the DRK, but since Reprisal is somewhat lacking in terms of timing it to when it's needed and Delirium only works against the magic damage, it's still pretty equal. There's something to be said for reliability.

Still pretty much a wash.

It looks to me like they're pretty equal when magic damage is involved and WAR is just better against physical damage.

Honestly, Giantbane, you're under rating Inner Beast, even for as highly as you're already considering it. That 6 seconds of reduction is up more like every 15 seconds, not including the use of skills like Vengeance, Berserk, and Infuriate; and being able to activate it more frequently is worth a hell of a lot more than the longer duration of Dark Mind, since it means that you can use Inner Beast to block way more individual tankbusters.

You could probably have Inner Beast fill in for several of those DRK cooldowns, even.