Men in Dresses

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

Others are saying that not all men who cross dress identify as women. So, how is calling them transwomen better than saying "men in dresses"? I mean, if you identify as a man, like others have said, wouldn't you just be a man in a dress?

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It's only cause people use some terms too lightly without fully understanding them, or not being clear about what they're saying.

When they say "trans" they could refer to transgender, transsexual, transvestite.... but there's no way of telling which they're actually talking about, cause we can't read their minds, and whether they're even using the correct term for what they're talking about. That's what's causing the confusion, most of the time.

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Originally Posted by Dashuto

You are 100% correct, and it is a very good point. I will add that social norms take even longer than the laws. We also should remind ourselves there are some cultures that will /never/ agree with the western ideals of equality. I dare not name them directly, but I am sure you can make accurate assumptions.

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Also, another country agreeing or disagreeing from their perspective does not make them wrong either.

http://thebaochi.files.wordpress.com...toon.jpg?w=640

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Originally Posted by Merle

Exactly, thats my point. WoW has a terrible community: that means more trolls, so maybe more people are willing to accept men in dresses because the "troll factor". Not sure if FFXIV is more serious-minded and thats why we're having this "i'm not sure if this is correct" debate

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If a community is more serious, this shouldn't even be an issue. Seriously bigoted might be a better term.

I find it sad that it's more accepted in a horribly trollish community like WoW for male characters to wear dresses than in a slightly decent (if venomous) community like ARR.

Honestly, I know I'll be flamed for this, but the LGBT community is way too sensitive nowadays. I mean, you're a man wearing a dress, and yet people are homophobic if they say that you're a "man in a dress"? Not everything is said with ill intent, you know? I have zero issues with equality, homosexuality, transgender, etc, but I do believe that the LGBT community have kind of gone off the deep end wanting to insert as much LGBT beliefs into everything. And worse yet, they throw around hurtful names and accusations at anyone who disagrees with their views. Does a very religious person not have the right to say they disagree with your beliefs, the same as you have the right to disagree with theirs? Personally, I'm an atheist, which like homosexuality, isn't a popular view point, but I don't feel the need to bash every person that insists that there's a god and that people like me are going to hell. Nor do I soap box on message boards trying to force the developers of games to include an option to be atheist in their games. I believe what I believe and that's good enough for me.

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Originally Posted by Synapse

Also, another country agreeing or disagreeing from their perspective does not make them wrong either.

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This thread is finally getting somewhere. There may yet be hope!

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Originally Posted by Mychael

There isn't a "fair" answer in today's world. People just aren't that accepting, and probably won't be for another generation. Racism didn't just disappear. It still hasn't disappeared.Our goal shouldn't be to "conquer" the mindset, but to integrate. The key to that is playing our similarities, not our extremes. Men in dresses, while popular among my friends, is kind of extreme.

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A man in a dress shouldn't even be considered extreme. There is nothing wrong with it, and it's only super distracting if the dress itself is made to be "loud" and flamboyant (which women wear dresses like that all the time, so I still don't see the problem with it). That's the problem, how can transwomen, or even just men who like to wear dresses, integrate when people say it's "extreme" to do this? How can they integrate when the very act of doing so is considered "too extreme" for society? The only way people are going to get over their internalized bigotry towards things like this are if people do it more often. The more often transwomen and men who like dresses actually go out and wear dresses in public, the more it'll be seen as just normal stuff that you'd see every day, just like women wearing pants.

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

A man in a dress shouldn't even be considered extreme. There is nothing wrong with it, and it's only super distracting if the dress itself is made to be "loud" and flamboyant (which women wear dresses like that all the time, so I still don't see the problem with it).That's the problem, how can transwomen, or even just men who like to wear dresses, integrate when people say it's "extreme" to do this? How can they integrate when the very act of doing so is considered "too extreme" for society? The only way people are going to get over their internalized bigotry towards things like this are if people do it more often. The more often transwomen and men who like dresses actually go out and wear dresses in public, the more it'll be seen as just normal stuff that you'd see every day, just like women wearing pants.

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If a woman/man is so much more comfortable with the "other" persona, they would be that much more comfortable simply selecting that gender in the game. There is no restriction that your character's gender MUST match your phenotype. Again, it's not a question of should or should not, it's a matter of is and is not. In today's society, it is not widely acceptable to be a man in a dress.

Frankly, with many of the transgender individuals I know, average people would not know they were anything but what they appeared, and they like it that way--the equivalent of simply rolling another gender for your character. Being a man in the dress is most generally trying to exhibit uniqueness, fashion, or have fun. That said, there are cases of genderqueer individuals who, like mbncd brought up earlier, are more comfortable with their male persona, but prefer feminine clothing. And to repeat myself, I don't think many of those borderline personas are so rigid that they could not adapt to either playing a female character, or playing a male character. After all, a customizable video game character is not often a representation of ourselves, so much as what we want ourselves to be.*

*I say that, but PLEASE don't look at my character name... *cough*

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

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Idk if im an atheist, but I dont believe in God but some other stuff I could believe someday... So im a pseudo atheist? =P But imo, its not that the LGBT community is too sensitive about something, and its not a 'gay agenda' (even tho some ppl DO believe that we have one '-') but seeing as that homossexuality is still something most people dont 'talk about' or even aknowledge it exists (most ppl still think you 'chose' to be gay), it would be nice for us to see us represented in what we like to do (in this case games). Way back, it was rare to see black people or even woman leading roles in games. Hell, woman still are seen as 'support' type (WHM was always a female in past FF) and even the person who rebooted Tomb Raider said that its still hard to make a female leading role popular. But today we have more females leaders (Lightning and Serah, albeit FF13 seems like a taboo =P), Tomb Raider, etc so it CAN change. I think I kinda missed my point by now, =P

But what I wanna say is it's cool to see us represented (whether you are gay, bi, tri, genderless, or any other alfabet letter =P) in what we like to do. Besides, how more manly can a man be by wearing a dress and still rocking on it w/o affecting his 'sexual security'? =P

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Originally Posted by Mychael

If a woman/man is so much more comfortable with the "other" persona, they would be that much more comfortable simply selecting that gender in the game. There is no restriction that your character's gender MUST match your phenotype. Again, it's not a question of should or should not, it's a matter of is and is not. In today's society, it is not widely acceptable to be a man in a dress.

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The entire thing boils down to "why shouldn't they let it be available?" All gear in the game looks the same on both genders, outside of seasonal and event costumes (and even then, a lot of seasonal costumes are the same for male and female), so why not just allow dresses to be done the same way? They've already established a pattern of gear looking the same or almost exactly the same on both genders, why not continue it?

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Originally Posted by Dashuto

That is still opinion and personal belief. You can paint it however you want, its still two sides clashing. One person will be uncomfortable with the others presence, the other is uncomfortable because they have to compromise what/who they are.

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There is a significant difference between compromising one's opinion about someone's identity and compromising one's identity itself. Those are not equal.

I don't know how to process a discriminatory sign, however legal it may be in it's location, being used to support tolerating discrimination. You're basically saying discrimination exists, therefore it should simply be tolerated because it's someone's opinion. There is such a disconnect of logic there I don't know how to even approach a discussion. I'll just posit that just because a certain discrimination is culturally accepted, doesn't mean that it should be tolerated.