Sorry SE, but endgame won't work if you don't fix something.

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Originally Posted by Unruhe

WoW isn't perfect (nothing is) and gets a lot of public flak despite having more subscribers than most other MMOs combined, but the one thing that WoW has that nobody can argue against is fluidity.
On a core, fundamental level, World of Warcraft works. If you push an attack, that attack happens. If you run to a spot to avoid an AOE, you avoid that AOE. If a boss starts casting a spell and you press an interrupt, that interrupt happens instantly and successfully every time. WoW has a fluidity and responsiveness that a many recent high-profile games (TOR and ARR especially) simply lack.

How any development staff can sit down and say "Let's make a hotkey, tab-target MMO" and then expend zero effort in nailing combat absolutely boggles my mind. WoW exists. It's easily accessible. It's free until level 20. Have your devs play it. If your WoW-like game feels sluggish and laggy compared to WoW, then you need to start over. You don't release a game with a similar monthly fee while offering what is clearly mechanically inferior to WoW. The final kicker is ARR even managed to have a terrible tab-target system, too! How do you even mess up tab-target? How?!? SE knows, apparently.

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Very well said. I agree with every single word.

How they managed to create the worst tab-targeting ever it's beyond me.

I agree with the OP completely. This lag issue is the number 1 problem in this game and it needs to be fixed... I literally cannot avoid the aoe attack from the reapers in CM. I will be outside of their aoe and still get hit, literally EVERY time. I've gotten hit by Ifrit's dash when I have been completely out of range as well. If a tank doesn't interrupt eruption, I will most likely get hit even though I'm out of range. Currently trying to do chimera for relic, and party members are repeatedly unable to dodge the ice attack due to lag and it is causing wipes. This is getting ridiculous. I cannot clear content because of lag? Either get rid of the lag or turn down the difficulty. I'm not a fan of making things too easy, but something has to be done... I don't even want to try hydra/garuda/titan because of this.

Honestly, if this isn't fixed in the first major patch... it's GOING to be addressed in a hotfix soon after.

The reason I say this is because PvP is 'supposed' to be coming out in 2.1. People will RAGE if these sort of issues happen in a 'competitive' arena. Titan (hard) is easy enough to do if you preemptively move and know what's coming. So are the other primals. PvP is different because there is a random element to it -- and people PvP to win. As it is now, you need to wait for the server to register and update your location before an attack goes off. Your position is updated every 300ms. If a melee, for example, is chasing down a mage to attack... all the mage has to do is keep running and the melee will get the 'too far away' message every time EVEN if it looks like the mage is 'close enough' on their screen. Similarly, abilities like "Fluid Aura" (whm knockback) are going to be hard to pull off because they are short-range.

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Originally Posted by Ryuko

Honestly, if this isn't fixed in the first major patch... it's GOING to be addressed in a hotfix soon after.

The reason I say this is because PvP is 'supposed' to be coming out in 2.1. People will RAGE if these sort of issues happen in a 'competitive' arena. Titan (hard) is easy enough to do if you preemptively move and know what's coming. So are the other primals. PvP is different because there is a random element to it -- and people PvP to win. ...

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I think SE will surprise you! Sadly in a bad way.

Garuda was always my easy example of 'proof of failure' when it comes to SE implementing AE's properly. To a lesser extent the end boss in AK could be used as well.
1. Players make a stack behind the rock
2. one or two people come in later but make it to the stack
3. Attack goes off with EVERYONE on the stack
3. the latecomers die, everyone else lives.
4. Corpse(s) laying there dead in the safe spot. - this is HUGE

How anyone sees this as even REMOTELY acceptable is beyond me. There is a chasm of difference between 'hard' and non-functional. I would be more than willing to have even harder fight mechanics and AE's, but with this lag even remotely possible it would not be acceptable. No matter what else is done, easier AE's or better servers or w/e, there needs to be a check added where the location of the player is verified before applying the damage.

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Originally Posted by Ryuko

Honestly, if this isn't fixed in the first major patch... it's GOING to be addressed in a hotfix soon after.

The reason I say this is because PvP is 'supposed' to be coming out in 2.1. People will RAGE if these sort of issues happen in a 'competitive' arena.

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Dont underestimate the blindness of the white knights!
If even here with solid proof they cant see it..
About the pvp, they will just say "you dont now how to play, thats just an excuse.. blah blah blah.. if you dont like it dont play it."

anyway, i really didint want to jinx it, and i really hope you're right and at max they fix it by then.
PS: they already have been doing hot fixes regarding the bosses in duty finder, but is still far from enjoyable.(they only reduced the 500ms internal lag the server had)

I'm sure it's not a cheap fix but they'll lose more money from cancelled subs keeping this nonsense around than they'll save by languidly disregarding it and hoping people accept it.

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Originally Posted by Misaky

Dont underestimate the blindness of the white knights!
If even here with solid proof they cant see it..
About the pvp, they will just say "you dont now how to play, thats just an excuse.. blah blah blah.. if you dont like it dont play it."

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You're probably right... people defending the game will find a way no matter what. Don't get me wrong -- I'm loving the game, and I CAN pass Titan... but this is a problem that needs to be addressed.

I can't think of a way hardcore pvp elitists will be able to 'defend' this, though. It's not something that's going to be fixed by preemptively moving or having the best internet ever. Everyone's going to have to deal with these issues.

I blame latancy. west coast or die.

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Originally Posted by KojachLoT

people have been complaining about aoe all throughout beta, and se has been saying its fine youre all bad just as long

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Titan is fine, I probably have wiped about 100 times before my group got enough experience in the fight, and is now able to run him pretty consistently.

So how come all these teleport hackers can bypass the server checks?

They teleport from one mining node to the next and the server doesn't notice?

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Originally Posted by Silverwalk

So how come all these teleport hackers can bypass the server checks?

They teleport from one mining node to the next and the server doesn't notice?

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Totally different issue.

Please Yoshi/SE do something about the server lag!! whats the point of having RED warning signs if you get hit anyway! Its very frustrating to deal with, slow the mobs cast timers down so players have more time to react, look into their AoE range, some are way to large of a circle or cone given their cast times, some even seem to extend further than the RED warning signs indicate. This is something that is hopefully on the top of the priority list.
/bumping as well....THIS NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED AND FAST!!!

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Originally Posted by reality_check

Totally different issue.

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Well kinda, but the reason they don't have the client check your position to see if you cleared the AoE is that would be prone to cheating.

Yet the server "check" completely fails to notice someone using a teleport hack. Doesn't that seem strange?

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Originally Posted by Misaky

Dont underestimate the blindness of the white knights!
If even here with solid proof they cant see it..
About the pvp, they will just say "you dont now how to play, thats just an excuse.. blah blah blah.. if you dont like it dont play it."

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I was doing some tests of Titan SM with fraps. Several times I caught people running out of of landslide on my screen and then getting hit. So the server told my client that the person was out of the AoE by over half a second and yet it still registered a hit on them.

But you're right in what you say. There is no point providing any more proof. Those that believe there is no problem with the servers will never be convinced by hard proof. I've given up and accepted that this is the way the game is.

What's strange is I watched a lot of video's from people who do not have the problem happen to them. For example the Titan for Tots thread here. I wish I was playing the same game as the person who posted that. He has enough time to run out of AoE's, have a picnic and eat a sandwich before the AoE goes off :) It would be wonderful to play that game lol Maybe it's because they are close to the servers, I don't know.

The best thing about this thread is that you can identify the hardcore fanboys and white knights so you can ignore them later on. Whilst gameplay issues are subject to taste I seriously don't see how anyone can defend the absolute lack of fluidity of this game. When I used to play WoW on an inferior ISP that routes to NA (I'm Australian) I get more responsiveness than right now on a superior ISP that routes to Japan.

When a game that runs of a 300ms TPG ADSL connection is more fluid than a game that runs on a 140ms Telstra cable connection then something is wrong.

At last we have more pages than the "butts are not round enough" thread, so maybe devs at least will get them priorities right.

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Originally Posted by complexxL9

At last we have more pages than the "butts are not round enough" thread, so maybe devs at least will get them priorities right.

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It says enough about this community.
I actually read the whole thing and funny enough not many white knight comments there.
Does make me wonder.

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The best thing about this thread is that you can identify the hardcore fanboys and white knights so you can ignore them later on. Whilst gameplay issues are subject to taste I seriously don't see how anyone can defend the absolute lack of fluidity of this game. When I used to play WoW on an inferior ISP that routes to NA (I'm Australian) I get more responsiveness than right now on a superior ISP that routes to Japan.

When a game that runs of a 300ms TPG ADSL connection is more fluid than a game that runs on a 140ms Telstra cable connection then something is wrong.

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Truth be told I don't understand how people can enjoy the lack of fluidity/character responsiveness.
The better games tend to be known for their fluid gameplay.

I tested WTFast, Battleping and Lowerping. They do help a bit and every bit helps. I don't live in North America or Japan and I have the best ISP in my country so that's my only option to improve ping.

Another thing that helps is stopping at the edge of the AOE, don't keep running. I tested this with fraps and if you keep running you can still get hit by the damage. If you stop at the edge of the AOE you don't get hit, with the cast bar at the same place. I assuming that this is because stopping sends a position update to the server. Using an ability also helps but stopping is enough. You can stand right at the edge of the AoE and not take damage, for everything that I could test.

I also noticed there was a short delay recorded by fraps between the cast bar starting and the AoE ground effect appearing. Lowering the graphics settings reduces this delay (!). I am using a Radeon 7870 graphics card and I lowered it from High (Desktop) to Standard (Desktop) with Depth of Field off in both cases. Every bit helps.

Hopefully these things might help in the event that the developers do not fix it. Personally I hope they don't nerf the encounters. All I want is that the server recognizes that I avoided the AoE on my computer, nothing more and nothing less.

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Originally Posted by Silverwalk

I was doing some tests of Titan SM with fraps. Several times I caught people running out of of landslide on my screen and then getting hit. So the server told my client that the person was out of the AoE by over half a second and yet it still registered a hit on them.

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First, this is a unique sort of proof that might show them there really is an issue. You should provide some timestamped screenshots, since SE might not watch a video.

Like
1:34: Archer Crossfire targeted for landslide
1:35: Archer Crossfire starts moving
1:36: Archer Crossfire passes out of aoe (it's important that this shows landslide not yet executing)
1:36: Titan executes Landslide
1:37: Archer Crossfire dead / damaged / knocked off (and thus dead)

However, that might not be the case. If you've ever dualboxed in any game and can simultaneously watch two screens, have one follow the other and you'll notice the leader usually takes a step further on the followers screen and then backsteps when he stops. This is the server, in most games, trying to predict movement a bit so that things look more seamless and things like follow function smoother.

It's a pity, made it to Titan HM just for not being able to kill him because of stupid server lag. Think I won't subscribe after first 30 days are over, and will wait til they fix this.

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Originally Posted by Steeled

First, this is a unique sort of proof that might show them there really is an issue. You should provide some timestamped screenshots, since SE might not watch a video.

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You're right but I can't spend any more time on this and I don't believe anything can change the minds of those who are convinced it's the players fault. Not that they matter, the devs already know it's a problem but whether they can fix it is another matter. I suspect it is just too hard at this point.

The other person testing this with me is in the same room and I can see their screen. It's amazing to watch how much lag there is between our two screens! I haven't seen any sign of server prediction in this game :)

The last few days I've been trying to find any way to minimize the lag and make the game more playable, the results are in my earlier post:

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Originally Posted by Silverwalk

I tested WTFast, Battleping and Lowerping. They do help a bit and every bit helps. I don't live in North America or Japan and I have the best ISP in my country so that's my only option to improve ping.

Another thing that helps is stopping at the edge of the AOE, don't keep running. I tested this with fraps and if you keep running you can still get hit by the damage. If you stop at the edge of the AOE you don't get hit, with the cast bar at the same place. I assuming that this is because stopping sends a position update to the server. Using an ability also helps but stopping is enough. You can stand right at the edge of the AoE and not take damage, for everything that I could test.

I also noticed there was a short delay recorded by fraps between the cast bar starting and the AoE ground effect appearing. Lowering the graphics settings reduces this delay (!). I am using a Radeon 7870 graphics card and I lowered it from High (Desktop) to Standard (Desktop) with Depth of Field off in both cases. Every bit helps.

Hopefully these things might help in the event that the developers do not fix it. Personally I hope they don't nerf the encounters. All I want is that the server recognizes that I avoided the AoE on my computer, nothing more and nothing less.

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Originally Posted by Silverwalk

The other person testing this with me is in the same room and I can see their screen. It's amazing to watch how much lag there is between our two screens! I haven't seen any sign of server prediction in this game :)

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That would be interesting to see, can anyone make a video of 2 screens side by side?

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Originally Posted by complexxL9

That would be inderesting to see, can anyone make a video of 2 screens side by side?

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When I watch my boyfriend do Titan (hard) as a tank, I have a front row seat to how well his party is dodging plumes/landslide. I nearly have a heart attack every time because it looks like they aren't going to get out of it (or barely made it out). Sometimes the ability goes off before they're even out of the radius... Yet most of the time, they are safe. The delay between screens is pretty scary. We play on the same ISP and in the same room, so maybe I should put our computers next to each other and record one fight... or I could record both fights and line them up exactly using a sound effect marker in the video.

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Originally Posted by complexxL9

That would be inderesting to see, can anyone make a video of 2 screens side by side?

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Here's a simple way to see it yourself. Get someone to autofollow you (they target you, right click and select follow).

Now start running, after about five seconds stop. Now time how long it takes for the character on follow to catch up and stop.

Now you know how far behind the other screen is, it's half that time :)

On the other persons screen they are always right behind your character.

...and here I was thinking that I'm an absolute noob because I can't seem to avoid AOE during boss fights half of the time. I'm telling you... I AM CLEAR of it before the spell goes off, but it hits me. I've never had this problem before with other games... I'm not slow. I just have to keep asking myself what I'm doing wrong, but here's my answer. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Silverwalk

The other person testing this with me is in the same room and I can see their screen. It's amazing to watch how much lag there is between our two screens! I haven't seen any sign of server prediction in this game :)

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Yup this was seen in 1.0 as well, so much for those new awesome servers SE !

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Originally Posted by Tetriana

...and here I was thinking that I'm an absolute noob because I can't seem to avoid AOE during boss fights half of the time. I'm telling you... I AM CLEAR of it before the spell goes off, but it hits me. I've never had this problem before with other games... I'm not slow. I just have to keep asking myself what I'm doing wrong, but here's my answer. Thank you.

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This also happand to me moust of the time and not only at Titan...after countles tries there to suced it with my Dragon i quit trieng its a waste of time!
I started now a WHM to fill the time hoping they will fix this...
...Cant pay to continue my subsciption if they dont fix this!This is not chalanging but its more like a luck based combat praying that u will not get hit moust of the time and not focusing on the actual fight.
Also this situation is for all fights where u get hit even if u are out of the way...
I realy hope they fix this like yesterday!

Head still in the sand is it?

There is no problem with the netcode in this game!
http://acelebrationofwomen.org/wp-co...06/ostrich.jpg

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Originally Posted by reality_check

There is no problem with the netcode in this game!
http://acelebrationofwomen.org/wp-co...06/ostrich.jpg

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Seems to be the case still. Kind of pathetic.

Bump for justice! As an Oceanic player, this fact double penalizes me......as if the high ping is not enough.

Just today I started working on Titan for my relic weapon quest. Never before have I had such anger towards a video game. What's the point in having abilities that can be dodged if when you dodge them you still get hit? Every single time I got hit by an AoE, I was out of it for at least 2~3 seconds. This, coupled with my group giving me crap about it and talking about how I'm bad and it's my fault I'm getting hit has almost pushed me to refuse to pay for this game once my free time is up. This has to be addressed, we need more than a "Oh, yeah, we know about it.". This needs a "We're going to fix this issue by x date." type of response. This is ridiculous. There's no fun in a fight that's supposed to be skill based and have it turn out to be 100% luck on if the server wants you to succeed or fail.

The idea of this fight is to learn it. Of course you can't dodge the AOE's if you plan on standing until they appear. Every one of his moves is systematic. Learn the rotations. Phase 4 for example. the pools always appear after the Table flip or the Table Flip/stomps (as stomps are every second rotation). Watch for the moves in our raid group we stand centre under scholar shields count the stomps then scatter. if you are already on the move you will not get hit by them. I play a healer I know how hard it is. I'm watching health bars not the ground beneath my feet. It took our group a week and a half to down titan. Give it some more time and learn his rotations. There are many groups that have titan on farm status. Which means he is not impossible you just need to put in the effort.

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Originally Posted by Eccho

Which means he is not impossible you just need to put in the effort.

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Whoosh....

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Originally Posted by Shiros

Just today I started working on Titan for my relic weapon quest.

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This right here... you started today. stop thinking end game can be beaten in a day. I know Ifrit and garuda lead you all to believe this but it is not the case. We farmed him every night for 8 days until we got it down pat.. Hell I chucked a tanty at one point and /rage quit for a day. It's frustrating and hard and seems impossible but it is doable. I have a relic and 3 titan weapons to prove it. I live in Australia I play on High ping and I dodge everything.. I am not an amazing player. but my group worked together and learned the rotations.

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Originally Posted by Animation

I didn't really have an issue with Titan. I also did it while my phone was tethered to my PC (So using mobile phone internet) <- 3s delay and I still done it fine.
You're clearly standing in the one spot for too long, you need to learn positioning. :/

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Did you even watch the video? The guy moved out of the way when Titan's AOE bar was only 1/4 completed and he still got knocked off.

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Originally Posted by Eccho

This right here... you started today. stop thinking end game can be beaten in a day. I know Ifrit and garuda lead you all to believe this but it is not the case. We farmed him every night for 8 days until we got it down pat.. Hell I chucked a tanty at one point and /rage quit for a day. It's frustrating and hard and seems impossible but it is doable. I have a relic and 3 titan weapons to prove it. I live in Australia I play on High ping and I dodge everything.. I am not an amazing player. but my group worked together and learned the rotations.

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Yes. You can adapt to the awful netcoding. This is not the point of the thread.

That's poor design.

Combat such as this should be designed so that moves can be more fluid.

In traditional mmo combat, where you can't dodge, spacing of raid damage and spacing of tank damage is necessary, however in a combat model like this, it should allow them to design fights where the boss uses abilities pretty randomly, each ability having it's own cooldown, and the boss having a gcd so that he couldn't use, say, plumes and the exploding rocks at the same time.

The idea that you need to memorize the pattern of the fight has been necessary in past mmo's and is necessary here because natural human reaction time+ping is causing a lot of people problems, but it's something that I hope future games can move away from and something games with combat like this and Tera could move from now.

The fact that fights can be scripted is why hardcore pvp'ers laugh at hardcore pve'ers.

This is first boss in 12years of my mmo hisory, where you should "predict" not "react" his moves. That's stupid.

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Originally Posted by Steeled

hardcore pvp'ers laugh at hardcore pve'ers.

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I wonder, how they're going to laugh with .3s delay.

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Originally Posted by reality_check

Yes. You can adapt to the awful netcoding. This is not the point of the thread.

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I was going to quote Eccho's senseless post and try to explain the issue (yet again) and how it doesn't apply to just Titan, but Titan with his myriad quick-cast AOEs is what really draws attention to the issue for a lot of people, but it's just easier to quote Reality Check and say he hit the nail on the head with his succinct reply.