Updated benchmark

Gonna be lovely to go through the story looking like this :)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DvNUTuCX0AIUxur.jpg

Okay, so it's yours again, forever * satisfied* Llymlaen and this is another attempt to make a review about what has changed and what is wrong with the hyur 1 face that my character uses. After spending a solid amount of time comparing faces, that's what I got. In my opinion, there are a lot of changes and they radically change my feeling of the character * your opinion may not coincide with mine, we are all different and everyone has their own view of things *.

AAnd yes, I will take and listen to the opinion of wise people and try to tell in words what has changed* but these are more abstract and subjective things*. And I'm sorry in advance if I'm being impolite again at some points. I have to say everything I think.
Let's start naturally with the most important thing: the mouth.
https://i.imgur.com/1AjXCNp.gif
https://i.imgur.com/goPBViG.png
There are so many changes here that it's easier to say what hasn't changed. Well, it hasn't changed that it's still a mouth, hahaha. A completely different form. When I chose my mouth, I wanted to see a contented, confident young girl, one might even say smug, but now she is a sad, even scared teenager. The photo will be next. And this change completely contradicts the very concept that the developers introduced us to, saying that they would not change the impressions of our characters. I'm sorry, but I still feel cheated, because right now we have something that is far from your promises. * I still don't understand why almost every element should be changed so dramatically*.
1. The shape of the lips itself. Previously, these were very interesting and cute lips with a bow with twisted shapes, and an interesting, intricate lip line, and a slightly smug smile that sets the tone of the character, but now we have a boring, ordinary shape. A simple, almost straight lip line that bends down strangely at the tips of the lips, creating a sad look. That is, there were very unique individual lips, and now it's just sterile, generic lips * my opinion*. You tried so hard * to leave us the same impressions that in a burst of creative work you made completely different lips. I would like to add them as a new lip type.
2. The corners of the lips are lowered and go straight into the dimples of the lips, which were not there before
3. The color has changed accordingly. I personally prefer the previous one. Dear Schwarzwaelder has already painted everything perfectly for you about colors at Jp forums
4. The lower lip looks bigger and because of this, the lip line is higher.
5. On the new lips, there is a thing under the lips that did not exist before. I prefer without this stuff.
6. The lips are now further away from the nose, which in turn also affects the appearance. Yes, by 3 to 5 pixels, but it is.
To sum up, a completely new kind of lips.

Then the ears. I won't pay much attention, in general they look better, have a clearer texture, but there are complaints.
https://i.imgur.com/2L7hOJB.gif
https://i.imgur.com/RkbUnAs.png
1. The ears have become more protruding, farther from the head. In simple words, she has become more lop-eared.
2. The earlobe on the old ears was more voluminous and interesting. On the new ears, it's a simple line.



Next, we move on to the nose
https://i.imgur.com/kUb2wCf.gif
https://i.imgur.com/xq5i2v2.png
It's actually very interesting here. It used to seem to me that more pixels meant more rounded smooth shapes, but in my case we get exactly the opposite.
1. The nose has become more square. The shadows are square and overall, again, the feeling of a new nose. Previously, it was a cute nose that stood out noticeably, but now it is a nose of a different shape, which has a noticeably straight bridge of the nose, which also does not play in favor of the same impressions, and gives the impression of a more angular, aristocratic nose.
2. The nostrils on the new nose are now further apart, making the tip of the nose larger and also, in combination with the new light, makes the tip more square.
3. There is now a dark spot on the tip of the nose that just looks ugly and out of place.



Next on the list, we have our charming eyes, yes.
https://i.imgur.com/NXsyPSy.gif
https://i.imgur.com/nrFfwO4.gif
https://i.imgur.com/k6DnUlJ.png
Again, the same claims. The shape has been changed for no apparent reason * can you at least tell me why you are radically changing every element?*. I do not know, before the look was more languid, mysterious, flirtatious. Now it looks like a gaze looking into the void. To nowhere.
1. Like the lips, the new shape of the eyes * I'm not surprised anymore*.
2. The tips of the old eyes look up, but the tips of the new eyes now also look slightly down.
3. The new eyes have become simpler! Look at the photos, they used to be more complex, with a lot of details, but now they have lost many features. I thought that with the development of graphics technology, things should become more detailed, and not the other way around.
4. Bags appeared under the eyes, which makes an energetic and lively girl, a tired, sleepy office worker.
5. The pupil has become larger. Again, a deliberate artistic interpretation of the current look.
6. The beginning of the eye at the bridge of the nose has become less pronounced and less detailed, yes, the very corner of the triangle. Too many changes for the eye, don't you think? :)
7. There is less mascara. The eyes look lighter and simpler.
8. There is no eye shadow over the eyes, because of this, the eye looks different. The look changes from playful to indifferent. And if you look closely, due to the lack of shadow, a strip of pixels has appeared and the eye looks undersized



Eyebrows.
https://i.imgur.com/xZOTJEs.gif
https://i.imgur.com/QbbAgXG.png
1. They changed the shape, there used to be a more pronounced arch at the tips of the eyebrows.
2. Eyebrows have become lighter.
3. The eyebrows have become straighter and the hairs are the same length. There was also a clear skew in the length of the eyelashes. The eyebrows are also less thick.


https://i.imgur.com/Dxlj4eL.gif
The general appearance of the character. A smug, mysterious girl with a gorgeous smile turned into a scared, indifferent tired, sad teenage girl. The facial features in the present form have become more refined. Here's the deal
In my opinion, who has played thousands of hours on this character alone, this is a huge difference. It looks more like aura, to be honest. I'm trying to convey to the developers that if you change the details of the puzzle picture * nose, mouth, eyes, change their shapes as you please*, we will not be able to assemble the same character that was before.

Well, that's my opinion. And this applies only to one character of the same race, and to be honest, I am not happy that the developers provided me. And imagine how much they still need to fix. The game is about to be released, and absolutely all the parts that can be changed on my character have been changed. This is unthinkable. You will say, because this is a graphic change and they need to be changed. I agree. But they must be changed according to the original. I have provided all the evidence above that the developers literally draw new noses, eyes, ears, me everything they can, simplifying the details and depriving the characters of individuality. In general, this hyur seems to me more like aura lol. * is it all the fault of the standardization of all races, as they said at fanfest? I don't know*.

There are so many flaws and we still don't know what our characters will look like, because they continue to improve our characters.

Just found an article explaining it :) all good!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SherlottaEryut

I've only just downloaded it (Bit late hah)
Is there a way to port my character from game to the benchmark? I can't remember the exact settings / skin tone etc :)
Sorry

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You go on your PC to where the game saves character data (usually in Documents/My Games somewhere) and copy the Character .dat file that is associated with your character. Then go to where the benchmark saves character data (same directory, different folder) and paste the character data there. Rename it so it follows the benchmark character data format, and your character is now in the benchmark.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SherlottaEryut

Just found an article explaining it :) all good!

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Excellent lol they probably explained it better than I did.

I'm not really feeling very excited for Dawntrail due to all of this. Excuse the "doomposting", but I don't feel very optimistic about the "future tweaks" at all right now. I understand developer time (I'm not asking for an immediate resolution, I know that isn't realistic) but everything feels a bit too ambigious to feel confident about. Especially when Au Ra essentially wasn't even touched (outside of limbrals) in the 1.1 Benchmark. I worry that even if the tweaks do come my character is just permanently going to have her likeness destroyed.

I just feel so disappointed following the PLL, seeing all the new places to explore and what's coming - I just don't think my experience in Dawntrail is going to be as enjoyable when I wasn't as fortunate and got very clear changes like enlarged lip size forced onto my character. I think it's great for those who are content and happy but it personally feels crushing.

I also disagree with the sentiment of Fantasia or "getting used to it", there is no way to look similar to as before if you are using very specific settings.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Risough

https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...f44ffd19bd.jpg
https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...45071bd9fb.jpg

I've outlined the area I'm unhappy with above. You can see the wrinkle around the brow is much deeper and darker now.

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I would like to expand on the bolded part of my message and properly explain how I feel face 4 Highlander changed. I have revised my previous screenshots to communicate these changes more clearly. First, however, I would like to thank the development team for their efforts on benchmark v1.1. The lighting improvements are amazing!

https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...1ac7ea5053.jpg

The furrows of the character’s brow have been made much deeper. In this view you can see that the brow has soft shadows in 6.58. In the updated benchmark there is instead a prominent wrinkle. This issue is consistent regardless of which eyebrow option is selected. I have tried to show the soft shading of the original in contrast to the graphic shape of the benchmark in my drawing.

https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...12336bdce1.jpg

These wrinkles are also visible from the front. The wrinkle is very subtle in the shading of the current version. In the benchmark the crease creates a harsh line between the bridge of the nose and the eye.

https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...80d30fea58.jpg

From the side you can see the wrinkle is again much deeper and darker. There is also an unnatural angle where the wrinkle crosses the border of the eye socket.

https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...97c11c9d81.jpg

I have also taken a screenshot of my character without face paint for those who find it distracting. Here you can clearly see the deep brow wrinkle in contrast to the subtle shading of the current graphics. It is especially noticeable on the bridge of the nose.

Overall, I feel the impression of face 4 highlander has been significantly changed by the deepened furrows. Compared to 6.58, the character feels older and much grumpier. I feel my character has changed significantly. I would appreciate it if the brows could be adjusted to remove the prominent furrow. Could you please somehow correct the shading to be softer like in the current graphics?

I know the development team is doing their best and I am sorry to ask more of them, but please accept my feedback for consideration.

I like a lot of the changes made in the updated benchmark version, however, there are there are still two issues I have with the changes: I don't like the change to the mouth and nose. My character's face is Face 2 for Male Viera.

The mouth, specifically the lips, appear to be a different shape and more flat and wider. I picked the smallest mouth option (4) but it looks like the size of the current Endwalker default mouth option (1).

The nose looks much more human-like instead of being more rabbit-like. They've made the part in between the nostrils wider. I picked the most thin/small nose option (3) but once again it looks like the current Endwalker default nose option (1).

I hope these changes can be fixed because it would be very unfortunate if Viera lose some of their rabbit-like feeling to become more human-like, that's how I feel anyways.

https://i.imgur.com/rctKvmT.png
https://i.imgur.com/lLdPivt.png

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...pe-still-F-ed.

Adding a link to this thread about the problems with male miqo'te faces. My feedback is a reply to that about facial structures changed to make male miqo'te face 1 look moronic and vacant, scars too long, and eyes better than the first benchmark but still lacking the current shimmer and turning lifeless and dead as soon as you zoom out even a little.

Black hair is also washed out.

I do want to thank the devs for putting the moonkeeper fangs back, but there is so much that is still wrong as if it got translated into a bad copy.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I agree with almost everything you wrote.

This where I think differently.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lunartears

Especially when Au Ra essentially wasn't even touched (outside of umbrals) in the 1.1 Benchmark.

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I wish they hadn't touched my Miqo'te at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lunartears

Excuse the "doomposting", but I don't feel very optimistic about the "future tweaks" at all right now.

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Not to make you more sad but they never promised or said they would do future tweaks, only they would fix issues and make adjustments IF "necessary" in future patches.

I think if you try to look at it from SE PoV you might understand the spot their in.

Right now there are 3 groups.
Group 1 - that wants everything reverted back even the imperfects

Group 2 - that want changes in certain areas to look closer to 6.58

Group 3 - that's happy with the changes

No matter what SE does, one of these groups are going to be disappointed.

Group 2 I personally think is the most difficult to please because every last one of them wants only certain things changed.
For example, for simplicity say you wanted the lips to be back to how they were. Well someone else likes the lips but wants the eyes to be back to how they were.
Everybody wants something different and it's just kinda impossible to please everyone, this on top of goal post moving.

For SE it's pretty much leave the characters as is or further change the characters and then disappoint the people that already like the changes and most likely still don't please the people that wanted changes because it's not how they wanted it and at that point SE is left with group 1,2 and 3 not happy and now they'll have even more complaining, with people that liked the updated characters in the same boat as all of you.

Character updates is always difficult because characters are going to look different, it's just a fact. With more polygons, better lighting, shadows and textures the characters would never look 1:1 the same as their 6.58 even if they tried.
(Like imo your new au ra looks pretty much identical to your 6.58 au ra). But to you it looks different.

At this point I think it's better to just either make a new character or just try to get use to your new look in-game where you can dress them up and see them in varied lighting.
I don't see SE making anymore changes to characters other than bug fixes when they have other things to work on for the rest of DT and changing characters in the middle of the expansion is a terrible decision when people might have already gotten use to their look, it always installs a sense of unease if SE is fine with just casually changing peoples characters making people think their characters are never safe with the look you gave them.
The only decision to do is to add more options down the line, not revert years of work.

I'd also like to note that the deepened furrows were not present in the original benchmark.

https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...ea6f5c667d.jpg

I hadn't mentioned the first benchmark in my comparisons as it had been deemed a defective product. I feel it is worth noting, however, because I had no opportunity to leave feedback until version 1.1 as opposed to some who had the chance for their feedback to be incorporated after the first benchmark.

Yeah his face does look a bit older and more weary to me. In the 1.1. version he kind of reminds me of Raubahn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Plushy

Not to make you more sad but they never promised or said they would do future tweaks, only they would fix issues and make adjustments IF "necessary" in future patches. (...) At this point I think it's better to just either make a new character or just try to get use to your new look in-game where you can dress them up and see them in varied lighting.

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I mean this as respectfully as I can given how angry I am, especially having seen your posts get torn apart on the Japanese side of the forums from you sharing a slew of SNS links of people happy with the changes without their permission in a feedback thread just because you're happy with the update, but you do not get to police any of us who are dissatisfied by saying something as bold as 'make a new character'.

Directly from Yoshida himself:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by P/D Yoshida

As always, we will remain open to feedback even after the updated benchmark update and Dawntrail have been released, and will also continue to address any issues or necessary adjustments in future patches!

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(There is no "IF" in there. Direct quoting is your friend.)

This is the very same man who has told us between two PLLs and a Fanfest:
https://i.imgur.com/vHVT8SA.png

https://i.imgur.com/cUsWVkr.png

And in an interview with Real Sound just in March of this year:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by P/D Yoshida

「『FF14』ではフォトリアルを目指すのではなく、これまでプレイヤーのみなさんが『新生エオルゼア』から10年間、一緒に歩んできたキャラクターたちの印象が変わらないということを絶対的な前提にしながら、テクスチャの解像度を上げたり、マテリアルのシェーダーを更新したり、全体的な雰囲気としてのグラフィックスアップデートによって「自分のキャラクターが総合的にパワーアップした！」という印象をいかにして持ってもらうか、が大切です。」

"Rather than aiming for photorealism in FF14, the absolute goal is that the impression of player characters, whom many have walked with for the past 10 years since 'A Realm Reborn', will remain the same. By increasing the texture resolutions, updating material shaders, and updating the graphics to create an overall better atmosphere it is important that the players can get the impression that 'my character has been absolutely powered up!'"

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We are allowed to be upset. We are allowed to be angry. More importantly, we are allowed to keep sharing feedback as it is what the development team wants.

Rock, hard place, I know, but they honestly could've avoided this if they've been way more upfront and transparent about the work done when making such sweeping statements to a playerbase who have characters they've played upwards of 14 years if they came over from 1.0. It was insulting to hear in the PLL the special attention paid to things like rock textures and placement of rocks when they know that there is a large number of the playerbase upset with the character side of the updates.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by faiarrow

It was insulting to hear in the PLL the special attention paid to things like rock textures and placement of rocks when they know that there is a large number of the playerbase upset with the character side of the updates.

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I'm glad I'm not the only one. Something about them focusing on the detail in the rock textures that non-artists are probably going to think little more than "oh, cool" about when our faces have literally lost definition got me a little riled up, lol. The textures for the normal map and the diffuse don't even line up on the lips for crying out loud.

There have certainly been some posts in the various feedback threads for tiny differences that I'm fairly sure are simply artifacts of a different lighting system (the complaints surrounding the corners of the mouth are a common culprit) and yes some of them do seem rather... nit-picky. Aaaand then there's femroe face 2, which literally looks unfinished, even ignoring the colour change for the pupils and nose smudge.

But on top of that, people are finding that there's holes between the head and the hair or beards, weird reactions to lighting where beards and eyelashes change colour in shadow when they shouldn't, chunks of hair where the texture density is completely wrong, glaring texture seams for hrothgar, lalafells missing their belly buttons...

I adore this game, I really do. I have over 700 days of playtime racked up on my main, I appreciate the work that goes into it even if I don't agree with every decision... but the graphical update, without a doubt in my mind, is not live game ready. The character side of the graphical update feels incredibly rushed and poorly tested. We are essentially the testers right now, and these feedback forums are our only way of communicating with the devs - if they're even listening.

I'm not expecting them to fix this before the release in 16 days because that's unrealistic as hell (and the poor artists deserve a break), but the least they could do is make another announcement and clearly state which pieces of feedback they intend to address and when. Even if it's just "it'll be something like 7.2 before we can impliment all the fixes, but this is what we've heard needs changing". Because, right now? It feels like a countdown to doomsday where our characters just get deleted and replaced with some alpha build that got slapped together before a lunchbreak and forgotten about. It feels like they're saying "eh, this is close enough".

The most frustrating part to me is. If only I had access to the files for this face - the sculpt, the model, the textures, etc etc - I could fix it in less than a day. That's what makes this feel like a massive slap in the face, like there's a huge we-don't-care sign plastered all over it. This is not "altered as little as possible".

I really appreciate the developers releasing a benchmark that allows the players to see the actual changes to their character. Asking for feedback shows concern for each player and their personal feelings regarding the changes.

Any modifications to the feel of the character should be made as part of a character creation update. The fantasia is an excellent gesture, but it is poor comfort to those who feel they cannot match their character with the few options provided. Many of us invest a lot of our time and ourselves in these characters and have played with them for a long time. They need to take care to match the characters as they are now, or people may feel betrayed and leave.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by faiarrow

I mean this as respectfully as I can given how angry I am, especially having seen your posts get torn apart on the Japanese side of the forums from you sharing a slew of SNS links of people happy with the changes without their permission in a feedback thread just because you're happy with the update, but you do not get to police any of us who are dissatisfied by saying something as bold as 'make a new character'.

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"Get torn apart"? it was only a single person asking did I ask for permission? Not sure how that means getting "torn apart" ? weird but if that makes you feel better.
I don't think I need permission sharing public information and also someone even disagreed that I need permission and since my post is still up I'm going to assume the mods thought it was fine too so...*shrugs* oh well. Just like what that person said, that just depends on your own personal ethical standard which I doubt you share and you're only feeling this way because you don't like I shared so much positive feedback because it makes you think SE won't do anything now. Its pretty obvious as you and others acted the same way trying their hardest to dismiss it.
Also not sure how you think I'm policing, you might only think that because you're angry and just assuming me sharing positive feedback as an attack.
Should probably calm down and reread my posts. If I was policing I would be dismissing people complains when I'm not. If me saying "make a new character" or "get use to your new look" is policing then I don't know, those are your ONLY choices in this matter, there is nothing else you can do in that situation other than quitting the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by faiarrow

This is the very same man who has told us between two PLLs and a Fanfest:
https://i.imgur.com/vHVT8SA.png

https://i.imgur.com/cUsWVkr.png

And in an interview with Real Sound just in March of this year:

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those leave leeway of trying to leave characters the same but he never said they would look 1:1 the same. "Preserving the overall look" which they did, the characters still look the same. Minor or some changes is still possible but the base look will still look the same.
"overall appearance of the player character will be altered as little as possible" same deal, this hints some changes will happen but still keep the overall look which they did do. Au ra's still look like au ra's, viera's still look like viera's, miqo'tes still look like miqo'tes just as yoshi-p put it, powered up.

I never said you couldn't be upset so not sure why you're acting like I said you can't be. You're looking for things to be mad about just so you can yell, feel attacked and feel like a victim and say "You're policing me! we have a right to be angry" when I never said you couldn't be :T.....and I agree they should have been more transparent but I think they did try to change the characters little as possible and in their mind they probably did but the playerbase feels differently. The dev team probably didn't think so many players would care much about the nuances such as -slightly- bigger lips and among other things.

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...ecd574ad0d397a
"As always, we will remain open to feedback even after the updated benchmark update and Dawntrail have been released, and will also continue to address any issues or necessary adjustments in future patches!"
You're right he didn't say "if" but this line suggests this is for bugs only, not changing characters due to feedback.
Its why they said "necessary adjustments" lots of things people are pointing out isn't really necessary since its a matter of preference.

"Even so, we imagine the subtle differences in nuance will inevitably cause some characters to look ever so slightly different compared to before. Should that be the case, a phial of Fantasia will be obtainable from a new quest that will be added with the release of Patch 7.0, which will allow you to fine-tune your character's appearance."
Just in case you missed this line, this suggests he realizes that there are some small changes compared to the 6.58 model. Which kinda defeats the purpose of clinging onto what he said in the past, he knows there is small changes so repeating bringing up the same argument of "he said they wouldn't change the characters" is moot now that he says this now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by azaleai

I'm not expecting them to fix this before the release in 16 days because that's unrealistic as hell (and the poor artists deserve a break), but the least they could do is make another announcement and clearly state which pieces of feedback they intend to address and when. Even if it's just "it'll be something like 7.2 before we can impliment all the fixes, but this is what we've heard needs changing".

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I'm going to be totally honest. I HIGHLY doubt they're going to change characters in the middle of the expansion. (This on top of there are lots of bugs and weighting issues they have to fix)
Everybody that liked the changes will be the in the same boat as you, people that have warmed up to their new characters will be upset and then on top of that, assuming they did make more changes. Its possible the changes they made won't even please you and others that wanted changes so now everybody is stuck with a character they're not happy with, everybody is upset.
They just can't make big changes at this stage as its too risky and just a overall bad move, the only thing they can do is add more character options in 8.0 or 9.0.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by azaleai

Because, right now? It feels like a countdown to doomsday where our characters just get deleted and replaced

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This is how I'm feeling about it. At best a couple of them are recognisably the same character but with unnecessary changes: the corner of the eye has moved, or makeup has been added to a character who did not and would not wear it.

At worst they feel like the wrong character, or they look ill or half-asleep or staring dreamily into space.

The devs have access to the original character models. Surely they can check back against those and see where they've gone wrong, instead of me staring at screenshots?

But then I also think there is an ongoing problem of interpretation of details of the original models, and I think the updaters have been interpreting certain things in the "wrong" way to how they actually look.

People have noted that some characters had a shadow under the lip interpreted as part of the lip, and I think they're getting the shapes of eyes wrong by adjusting the position of eyelashes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Plushy

text

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My dude, you need to learn a little empathy.

People are legit angry about the update not for the sake of it, not to be nitpicky, but because they're passionate and absolutely, truly love this game, and only want to see what's best for it. It's not okay that characters that people have had for upwards of 10-14 years have inexcusable mistakes (some of which are really trivial to fix, like the opacity of hellsguard pupils and nose smudge), which while many were addressed/improved with bench 1.1, there's still many, many more. I even saw a male au ri on the Japanese feedback thread, with a plump tail, have part of it cut off at the end, leaving a visible a cross section.

I know Faiarrow and have for over ten years. They have said to me, point-blank, that they'd even be willing to play through DT msq without fantaing to a femhroth (which is about the same as the death of their character, basically), if we had another check-in from the devs. Something saying they are still listening and working on things, and 'maybe expect something patch 7.x'. Some sort of transparency and timeline from the devs, rather than the sea of anxiety and uncertainty as to whether these changes will go unfixed because 'close enough'.

It's no different than the feedback players back in 1.0 gave when the game was crashing and burning. There were certainly strong words back then, because people LOVE THE GAME. Like I said, they only want to see what's best for it, and for the devs. That sort of passion doesn't come about out of a vacuum.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by azaleai

Because, right now? It feels like a countdown to doomsday where our characters just get deleted and replaced with some alpha build that got slapped together before a lunchbreak and forgotten about. It feels like they're saying "eh, this is close enough".

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Seconding this, this is going to be super cliche, but instead of making me feel excited, the traditional daily artwork countdown makes me feel like I'm in Majora's Mask and I got no ocarina on me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sui-Kune

My dude, you need to learn a little empathy.

People are legit angry about the update not for the sake of it, not to be nitpicky, but because they're passionate and absolutely, truly love this game, and only want to see what's best for it. It's not okay that characters that people have had for upwards of 10-14 years have inexcusable mistakes (some of which are really trivial to fix, like the opacity of hellsguard pupils and nose smudge), which while many were addressed/improved with bench 1.1, there's still many, many more. I even saw a male au ri on the Japanese feedback thread, with a plump tail, have part of it cut off at the end, leaving a visible a cross section.

I know Faiarrow and have for over ten years. They have said to me, point-blank, that they'd even be willing to play through DT msq without fantaing to a femhroth (which is about the same as the death of their character, basically), if we had another check-in from the devs. Something saying they are still listening and working on things, and 'maybe expect something patch 7.x'. Some sort of transparency and timeline from the devs, rather than the sea of anxiety and uncertainty as to whether these changes will go unfixed because 'close enough'.

It's no different than the feedback players back in 1.0 gave when the game was crashing and burning. There were certainly strong words back then, because people LOVE THE GAME. Like I said, they only want to see what's best for it, and for the devs. That sort of passion doesn't come about out of a vacuum.

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I do have empathy and if I seem insensitive I apologize.
But as I said to another person. They just can not change characters in the middle of the expansion. It'll cause way more harm than good.
I already gave some examples but to repeat; people that like the changes would be in the same boat as all the people not happy, the people that warmed up to the changes and like it now will also be upset and the people that WANTED changes have a chance of STILL being upset because the changes SE did isn't how they wanted it or they changed things they actually liked then we'll be right back where we are, another example of the peoples that want change.

Person A: I don't like the lips and want the 6.58 version but I like the eyes so good job there
Person B: I don't like the eyes and want the 6.58 version but I like the lips so great job there
Person C: I like the new changes, please don't revert anything SE

Now who should SE listen to? if listen to A and B this is what would happen
Person A: Change the eyes back SE! I liked the new eyes!
Person B: Change the lips back SE! I liked the new lips!
Person C: Why did you change things SE! Change it back!

People will get upset wanting more changes. With that possibility in mind...(and you know it will happen).
Rather than asking for things to be changed. At this stage its better to ask for more options. SE is in a position where they split the player base on the new characters and changing anything at this stage is a terrible decision and no matter what, someone is going to be sad.
SE isn't going to do another overhaul of the characters after 1.1 still isn't enough for people.
Not to be rude but most (---->most meaning not everybody<----) people wanting things reverted won't fully be happy unless they just decide to not do the character update and even if that's not true. I think people need to accept even if they some how got characters to look 1:1 with everything the same model.
It STILL won't look like 6.58 because higher poly, better textures, better shadows, sub surface scattering and non hand drawn pupil highlights and lips, different lighting rendering and how it reflects off the eyes. Its just not possible, someone will not be happy.

I really do think most of you will get use to the changes personally once you're actually in-game and seeing your character in different lighting and glams rather than the benchmark, could still be wrong but for most people I think will get use to it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sui-Kune

It's no different than the feedback players back in 1.0 gave when the game was crashing and burning. There were certainly strong words back then, because people LOVE THE GAME. Like I said, they only want to see what's best for it, and for the devs. That sort of passion doesn't come about out of a vacuum.

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Honestly this isn't even comparable to 1.0 because people actually like the updated characters. This will only make sense if everybody hated it and nothing is still being done.
I'm not going to list my links again because it makes people mad but yeah....not comparable, not by a long shot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Plushy

Now who should SE listen to?

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The people telling them how to achieve their previously stated aspiration of keeping the characters looking the same as they were before.

I was holding onto little hope to see my miqo'te's botched mouth to be fixed even with the second benchmark , but seeing them barely address most of the issues that weren't connected to the poor lighting in the first benchmark and how sloppy some other fixes are kinda cemented they don't care as much. Not even a mention in the LL either.
Its a pretty hard pill to swallow that I'm sacrificing my character's face that's been the same for 9 years , for the sake of supposed new animations that might be available for facial rigging with all these extra polygons wow !!! - and then see Wuk Lamat and other NPCs in the latest trailer use the exact same facial expressions and talking animations I've been looking at in cutscenes for almost a decade. Like lmao if you're forcing the plastic surgery on me at the very least make it worth it Idk.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SchwarzwaelderTorte

Seconding this, this is going to be super cliche, but instead of making me feel excited, the traditional daily artwork countdown makes me feel like I'm in Majora's Mask and I got no ocarina on me.

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This. I am dreading launch day...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Plushy

I'm going to be totally honest. I HIGHLY doubt they're going to change characters in the middle of the expansion. (This on top of there are lots of bugs and weighting issues they have to fix)
Everybody that liked the changes will be the in the same boat as you, people that have warmed up to their new characters will be upset and then on top of that, assuming they did make more changes. Its possible the changes they made won't even please you and others that wanted changes so now everybody is stuck with a character they're not happy with, everybody is upset.
They just can't make big changes at this stage as its too risky and just a overall bad move, the only thing they can do is add more character options in 8.0 or 9.0.

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I understand where you're coming from and I do agree, if they were to reverse some of the more aesthetic decisions (slightly altered eye shape, altered clan marks and colours, etc) there would be some people disappointed. That's why I personally will make my peace with my darkened pupils and lightened nose smudge if that never gets fixed... I don't really agree with the choice, but I know it probably appeals to someone out there.

But I need you to understand, the parts I want them to make an announcement about intending to fix are the bugs, the glaring issues with the models and textures, the holes and seams.

Here's what I mean by femroe face 2 lip textures not matching up:

https://i.imgur.com/gpKg7bR.png

The normal map for the lips (the faux 3D texture) is completely straight across, while the diffuse (the colour texture) has a defined upper lip shape. The philtrum doesn't really make sense with either texture, to be honest.

My complaint with the eyebrow creases is rather difficult to illustrate without datamining the textures from the benchmark or some such, but imagine if they took the normal map for the lips and just straight up deleted it, leaving only the diffuse map. When the rest of the face has detailed normals, that looks incredibly odd and uncanny valley. When the current 6.58 face has those normals it feels like a step backwards.

Here's some of the holes between the head and the hair:

https://i.imgur.com/Ow2WCbZ.png

Which is caused by the alterations being made to the shape of the head model, but no tweaks being made to the hair model. Either the hair models need to be altered as well, or the head model should have retained the same basic shape.

Somewhat less glaring, but here's an example of the texture seams:

https://i.imgur.com/y60BS6o.png

This is just straight up a problem with how the textures have been baked.

These aren't aesthetic choices; these are mistakes. I can't fathom anybody preferring it this way.

But compound that with the aesthetic differences, the lips being completely different shapes, the changing of colours, the fading of clan marks? It's just. a big mess.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SchwarzwaelderTorte

Seconding this, this is going to be super cliche, but instead of making me feel excited, the traditional daily artwork countdown makes me feel like I'm in Majora's Mask and I got no ocarina on me.

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My feelings exactly. : (
I know some people say "just change, you're too attached" but this is a story-driven game so it should not be surprising that some people actually build a, well, story around their characters and don't just treat them as virtual legs to traverse the game with.
There's this vibe that story-driven gaming or RPing is somehow less mature than technical fighting gameplay. If you care more about your char's story-driven experience than the fact that they are ostensibly just a means to do battle content with then your "gaming priorities are wrong".
I've had my OG char for such a long time and to add another cliche to this, she is my favourite character in here.
I like battle content but I want to experience it with my character in particular. For me challenge and story are equal components of what makes FF fun to me.
For others the balance may look different, nobody is wrong here, since it's about how you subjectively have fun as an individual. So I wished people who feel less attached to their chars could see that FF has many different aspects that different people focus on in terms of enjoying themselves.
For me the update's changes making my WoL look like a different char is a bit like your favourite character getting updated out of the game.

EW:
https://i.ibb.co/pzk0g9x/endwalker.png

DT:
https://i.ibb.co/R74Nvn0/dawntrail.png

My friend said she's turned into Anya Taylor Joy (Side note: LOVE HER but I'm after a FFXII Viera look)
I think she looks less rabbit-like...? I'll have to play around in the benchmark a bit more but at the moment not sure how I feel about this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Loggos

For me the update's changes making my WoL look like a different char is a bit like your favourite character getting updated out of the game.

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This is also actually a possibility, given that these changes will affect NPCs as well, either by default because they're built in the character creator or because the major characters' custom faces are presumably being updated through the same methods and by the same people who were supposedly aiming to keep the characters looking as they were before.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by azaleai

snip

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Ahh if its just bugs then I agree (more reason why adjusting characters again is a bad idea because it would just add more character model bugs) but they already said they would fix issues in the update benchmark so they don't really need to make another PSA.
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...ecd574ad0d397a
As always, we will remain open to feedback even after the updated benchmark update and Dawntrail have been released, and will also continue to address any issues or necessary adjustments in future patches!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The people telling them how to achieve their previously stated aspiration of keeping the characters looking the same as they were before.

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This is just simply selfish. There is no seniority system, they don't have to listen to you or the people pointing out slight changes.
If I were to post my links again it would seem more people are overwhelmingly liking the changes than against it. Because I don't see any posts with over 5k likes that were criticizing the new looks. The highest I seen was like 1k and that was someone upset their male midlander looked different and it was from a popular streamer/youtuber shinpei or something (so you could argue it was people liking it just for the sake of it since it was from a popular streamer.)
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...ecd574ad0d397a
---->Even so, we imagine the subtle differences in nuance will inevitably cause some characters to look ever so slightly different compared to before.<----- Should that be the case, a phial of Fantasia will be obtainable from a new quest that will be added with the release of Patch 7.0, which will allow you to fine-tune your character's appearance.

The truth is, all of the statements about the graphical update are PR comments. I don't say this to be negative about the development team, that's just the reality of it because SE/CBU3 is a business. They're ambiguous and leave room for interpretation. It's impossible for us to tell what counts/will count as an "issue/necessary adjustment/response to player feedback" vs what counts as "a subtle difference in nuance" except in retrospect. Since game development is such a complicated practice with so many resources and disciplines competing with each other, it's possible that answer could change day by day. So I sympathize that it's hard for SE to make specific promises.

Either way, we won't gain anything by trying to argue with each other where that line is. Making it into a player vs player issue and calling people "selfish" if they disagree with you feels unnecessary.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Plushy

Character updates is always difficult because characters are going to look different, it's just a fact. With more polygons, better lighting, shadows and textures the characters would never look 1:1 the same as their 6.58 even if they tried.
(Like imo your new au ra looks pretty much identical to your 6.58 au ra). But to you it looks different.

At this point I think it's better to just either make a new character or just try to get use to your new look in-game where you can dress them up and see them in varied lighting.

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You can tell these fairy tales to children at night. You don't need to be a graphic artist to understand that new shapes are a free interpretation of existing shapes. They don't have the task of recreating 2d graphics from the Nintendo era. They have enough of the current polygons to add better textures, polygons, lighting so that the character remains the same and at the same time looks like an improvement. To leave everything as it is and improve the details, you need to try a little. It takes a lot of effort to change ALL the current details of the face, and make them different, which we see in the benchmark. I see you are concerned about likes and this is an indicator for you. Take my gorgeous dislike for this square enix work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Plushy

---->Even so, we imagine the subtle differences in nuance will inevitably cause some characters to look ever so slightly different compared to before.<----- Should that be the case, a phial of Fantasia will be obtainable from a new quest that will be added with the release of Patch 7.0, which will allow you to fine-tune your character's appearance.

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The main issue is that the amount of options in the character creator is too limited to fine-tune many of the changes. The JP have also shared this sentiment in their own feedback thread.

If we did have, for instance, five more lip options per face type, then players would be able to adjust more (even though some wouldn't be happy regardless), but it's sadly not the case.

The graphical update on characters should have been accompanied with a character creator overhaul. I hope we can at least get it in 8.0.

I can't speak for everyone, but I was expecting something like this. It's just the same shape and improved, clearer textures. With new shadows, subsurface scattering and many other modern things. *these have only upscaled textures*
https://i.imgur.com/alrltwT.gif
https://i.imgur.com/enACW1u.gif
https://i.imgur.com/E3UEEpa.gif




I'm also messing around with the graphics editor a bit and I got my character back, hehe. I just put in my old eyes, mouth and lips. And she didn't change anything else. However, the nose has not been able to make the colors of the new skin, brightness, contrast and saturation have changed many times and this is the best option.

what i added
https://i.imgur.com/JGIOLse.png

pictures.
old hyur
https://i.imgur.com/1oisrFm.png
benchmark version
https://i.imgur.com/MCETFyC.png
edit version
https://i.imgur.com/LfbeRD1.png

Cross-posting with the female Midlander specific thread.

I'm still bogged down in trying to do some more detailed diagrams and things, but I really need to get something posted as time draws short.

The graphics update hasn't captured my Midlander well at all.

Specifically this is face 3, jaw 3, eye shape 4, eyebrows 4, nose 5, mouth 3.

Some improvements were made since the first version of the benchmark - the heavy crease over the eyelid has been erased, and it helps her to look a bit better - but the eyes and the expression are still wrong. It feels like she has lost her confidence.

Comparison of all three including previous benchmark:

https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...ce51c41d96.jpg

Comparison of current appearance and new benchmark only:
https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...26b30d212c.jpg

And at a wider distance:
https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...c75bdb6a30.jpg

You cannot tell me that these are the same person. The basic attributes might be the same but the details are all wrong.

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General issues with the face:

• The eyes are vertically lower and horizontally wider, giving them a drooping appearance and making her look sleepy or ill.
• The nose seems to be bigger and dominates the face in a way it didn't previously.
• The underside of the nose is more slanted instead of being fairly flat, so you see more of it from a front angle.
• The lips are larger - it seems like the shadow under the bottom lip has been reinterpreted as part of the lip. (Someone previously pointed out this had happened on one of the Au Ra faces, and I can now see that it has happened here too.)
• There is a weird pucker on the face (see below).
• The neck is narrower where it meets the head.

The eyes are my biggest issue. You can see in this comparison gif that it goes from being a very "upwards" sort of shape with the arc of the eyelashes basically centred over the pupil, to being low over the eye and heavily weighted towards the outside corner, which has been pushed outwards and become more slanted. It drastically changes the feel of the character.

https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...8507f3fa35.gif



Specifically regarding the pucker on the face, it's difficult to describe but you can see it in this following picture from the benchmark. As soon as I saw the benchmark I immediately felt like she was pulling a weird face, although I couldn't say what gave the impression until I had it at the right angle for these creases to catch the light. From pulling some faces in the mirror, to get diagonal-inward lines like this to appear on my own face I had to make an exaggerated "ooh" sound with my lips sticking out. It's not a straight resting face at all.

https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...08c2712cb5.jpg


Additionally there are some strange shadows being cast by the hair onto the face:
https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...a9de08b554.jpg


And some particular weird lighting on the eyelid rims of the benchmark model, so they're brightly lit high up and then have shadows lower down, where the original version has a more controlled, permanently dark outer rim that better frames the eyes.

https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...f91a3c9af7.jpg

I wrote it on the image but I'll say it again - my current character is beautiful and I don't want to lose her. She has a perfect balance of looking friendly and confident and sweet-natured, and the benchmark doesn't capture any of it. The soul isn't right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The soul isn't right.

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Exactly this!

I have 8 years and thousands of hours of screenshots and video with my character (as she is now) and this new version doesn't feel like the same one I spent those thousands of hours journeying with. It is super frustrating. I get that not everyone cares what their character looks like (my brother hits random and that is it, he's good) and I get that some people really like the changes and super stoked to try the updated races. You guys are the lucky ones.

But this is such a disappointing change for me that I'm thinking of using an alt in the beginning and hoping that they allow us to keep the original lines before using my main again.

And, related, adding some new pictures I put together. I really don't understand why the lines/shapes were changed. It feels like someone was looking at the original model, and then tried to redraw it from memory and got really close, but not quite (the new ones are lovely - they just aren't my character) and called it a day.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw...-gm?authuser=0

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw...-gm?authuser=0

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LlymlaenGreene

https://i.imgur.com/JGIOLse.png

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I'm sorry.
But when that came up while scrolling down the post I burst out laughing.
I wasn't expecting a couple of eyes, nose and a mouth floating like that.

No bad intentions.
Just looked funny.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Irishfae

I have 8 years and thousands of hours of screenshots and video with my character (as she is now) and this new version doesn't feel like the same one I spent those thousands of hours journeying with. It is super frustrating. I get that not everyone cares what their character looks like (my brother hits random and that is it, he's good) and I get that some people really like the changes and super stoked to try the updated races. You guys are the lucky ones.

But this is such a disappointing change for me that I'm thinking of using an alt in the beginning and hoping that they allow us to keep the original lines before using my main again.

And, related, adding some new pictures I put together. I really don't understand why the lines/shapes were changed. It feels like someone was looking at the original model, and then tried to redraw it from memory and got really close, but not quite (the new ones are lovely - they just aren't my character) and called it a day.

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I feel exactly the way you do. It's 5 or 6 years for me, and a screenshots folder that's 30GB. I still have the original fantasia I was given but I love my character so much I've never used it. Another free fantasia isn't going to fix this for me, especially when there's only two or three extremely similar options per facial feature to switch to. I've honestly felt depressed about this whole thing. My character doesn't feel like my character anymore to me either. You inspired me to make a split screen comparison. I made mine a video. Hopefully this works. I also made one to show the missing lip gap as well as the change in face profile.

Video of front on comparison: https://i.imgur.com/f2crDvz.mp4

https://i.imgur.com/AciqjmB.gifhttps://i.imgur.com/b5xL1GI.gif

I really want them to spend more time making things closer. Faces is how most of us recognize others. It's too uncomfortable for me to see these changes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by azaleai

It feels like a countdown to doomsday where our characters just get deleted and replaced with some alpha build that got slapped together before a lunchbreak and forgotten about. It feels like they're saying "eh, this is close enough".

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Just checking in as one more person who shares this sentiment. I want to be excited about a new expansion coming out, but instead I'm dreading DT as an oncoming deadline where I'm going to lose my character. As was said above, the graphics update, whether you like your character or not, is not release ready. I just can't understand why they gave us the first look only 2 months before release. Or how the first benchmark made it through QA despite the myriad glaring bugs and nonfunctioning lighting.

I've had my WoL for 4 years, never fantasia'd, and have taken well over 1000 gposes with her. I'm angry at the dev team for effectively taking her away by forcing this low-effort "upgrade" on us.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheapshot

Another free fantasia isn't going to fix this for me

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I wish they would, but same for me, no amount of fantasia is going to fix her.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheapshot

Hopefully this works. I also made one to show the missing lip gap as well as the change in face profile.

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Nicely done! The beginning with the EW part first and the profile view seems to make the change more striking.
I think is also nicely showcases the bizarre change in the color palette too. Fair skin is now even fairer (easier to fix, but I'm wondering what sort of technical thing causes that to happen, unless it was an artistic choice. (And before anyone wants to fuss at me for this, yes, lighting does affect how the color is perceived, but this goes beyond changes to the atmospheric lighting - as others have also pointed out.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheapshot

I really want them to spend more time making things closer. Faces is how most of us recognize others. It's too uncomfortable for me to see these changes.

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Exactly.

(Fun little story: One of kids came in while I was typing this up and I still had your video up and he looked at it a moment and said "the eyes are wrong, it doesn't look right" about the DT version. And this coming from someone who doesn't play the game. Just an interesting observation.)

5 years, and 8 thousand hours. One "fantasy" to change the color of the eyes at the very beginning of the journey. 70 gigabytes of screenshots. I really don't like what I saw in the 2nd benchmark, it's like I lost my character. I don't recognize my favorite miqo'te in the new benchmark, and I don't understand why they made it worse, even in such small things as the detail and shine of the eyes, which now look more like the eyes of a rotten fish. I'm afraid of you, Dawntrail.
https://i.imgur.com/1n6z6s0.png