Would you be opposed to SE implementing a program to scan for addons/parsers?

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Those people who never set a foot in anything above Normal Raids sure have a lot to say about how the game should be played.

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story of the forums life

If anyone needs a 3rd party plugin that solves the mechanics for them to clear high end content, they are a bad player and clearly don’t have the skill level for that content.
Also if anyone needs to see their DPS value, they are not playing the content for the reward (which is a beautiful weapon), but they are playing to min-max.

If you need any of this to enjoy the game, then you are not only playing the game incorrectly, but also not playing the right game for you. This is not an esports game and we have no official leaderboards showing how long it took which team to kill a boss.
Addons for PvE content are not quality of life features, they are only an ego boost.

I don’t raid much, but when I do, I do it for the challenge, and not to circumnavigate my way around the challenge.

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Originally Posted by Anger

In light of the recent TOP issue and concerns surrounding the legitimacy of their clear - would you be opposed to anticheat software scanning your system for addons/parsers/plugins?

This would help enforce the total and categorical ban on any third party programs used.

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The only people that Anti-cheat software hurts is people that aren't cheating.

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Originally Posted by Tulvi

If anyone needs a 3rd party plugin that solves the mechanics for them to clear high end content, they are a bad player and clearly don’t have the skill level for that content.
Also if anyone needs to see their DPS value, they are not playing the content for the reward (which is a beautiful weapon), but they are playing to min-max.

If you need any of this to enjoy the game, then you are not only playing the game incorrectly, but also not playing the right game for you. This is not an esports game and we have no official leaderboards showing how long it took which team to kill a boss.
Addons for PvE content are not quality of life features, they are only an ego boost.

I don’t raid much, but when I do, I do it for the challenge, and not to circumnavigate my way around the challenge.

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I'd like to point out the original thing that got people riled up this time was a player using a mod to zoom the camera out further. It did not solve the mechanics for them, though the zoomed out camera did help the solve the mechanics faster.

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Originally Posted by Tulvi

If anyone needs a 3rd party plugin that solves the mechanics for them to clear high end content, they are a bad player and clearly don’t have the skill level for that content.
Also if anyone needs to see their DPS value, they are not playing the content for the reward (which is a beautiful weapon), but they are playing to min-max.

If you need any of this to enjoy the game, then you are not only playing the game incorrectly, but also not playing the right game for you. This is not an esports game and we have no official leaderboards showing how long it took which team to kill a boss.
Addons for PvE content are not quality of life features, they are only an ego boost.

I don’t raid much, but when I do, I do it for the challenge, and not to circumnavigate my way around the challenge.

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And certainly not to carry your weight by the looks of it. Also something doesn't need to be official to exist, cuz yknow...fflogs

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Originally Posted by Mr_Happy

Anti cheat is not a one and done solution because many people still cheat in games with anti cheat software. At least there is a chance of getting caught. Having zero systems in place to detect cheaters other than seeing them use software on a stream is indeed appaling.

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But to what degree would they work is the question? Would you be banned for using QoL plugins without which the game is quite literally unplayable for many people and SE is far too lazy these days to even consider adding them.What about Gshade?

I feel like SE truly doesn't care about QoL, HUD or Gshade stuff, but they are bothered by Raid cheats and I'm not sure if they could find a way to prevent one without preventing the others which is likely why they haven't come up with an anti-cheat yet.

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Originally Posted by Tulvi

If anyone needs a 3rd party plugin that solves the mechanics for them to clear high end content, they are a bad player and clearly don’t have the skill level for that content.
Also if anyone needs to see their DPS value, they are not playing the content for the reward (which is a beautiful weapon), but they are playing to min-max.

If you need any of this to enjoy the game, then you are not only playing the game incorrectly, but also not playing the right game for you. This is not an esports game and we have no official leaderboards showing how long it took which team to kill a boss.
Addons for PvE content are not quality of life features, they are only an ego boost.

I don’t raid much, but when I do, I do it for the challenge, and not to circumnavigate my way around the challenge.

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Bold of you to assume you can dictate how one should play and enjoy a game.
Isn't it quite stupid that SE keeps introducing newer and harder DPS checks in end-game content but there's no dps meter in-game? At least not in normal or extremes but there should definitely be one in Savage and ultimates, if you keep failing a dps check in PF then everyone deserves to know because whom they're failing, ask them to learn their rotation better, if they refuse, kick them.

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Originally Posted by Mcg55ss

snip of any message

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I mod steam games all the time, not sure why you're championing them as some indestructible force of nature or something

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Originally Posted by Tulvi

If anyone needs a 3rd party plugin that solves the mechanics for them to clear high end content, they are a bad player and clearly don’t have the skill level for that content.
Also if anyone needs to see their DPS value, they are not playing the content for the reward (which is a beautiful weapon), but they are playing to min-max.

If you need any of this to enjoy the game, then you are not only playing the game incorrectly, but also not playing the right game for you. This is not an esports game and we have no official leaderboards showing how long it took which team to kill a boss.
Addons for PvE content are not quality of life features, they are only an ego boost.

I don’t raid much, but when I do, I do it for the challenge, and not to circumnavigate my way around the challenge.

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This is one of the most ignorant posts in this thread lol.

Who are YOU to tell someone they're playing wrong? Who are YOU to complain about how people enjoy the game? Who are YOU to say it's wrong for people to enjoy trying to parse well? Who are you to claim your subjective opinion on the weapon appearance is fact (spoilers: I think almost all of the ultimate weapon skins are ugly).

Why do you think people raiding to parse aren't "doing it for the challenge"? Why is trying to be better at the game "the wrong way to play"? The sheer arrogance of this post to act like your way of playing is the only correct way of playing, good lord.

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Originally Posted by JOsha

Bold of you to assume you can dictate how one should play and enjoy a game.
Isn't it quite stupid that SE keeps introducing newer and harder DPS checks in end-game content but there's no dps meter in-game? At least not in normal or extremes but there should definitely be one in Savage and ultimates, if you keep failing a dps check in PF then everyone deserves to know because whom they're failing, ask them to learn their rotation better, if they refuse, kick them.

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No imho it isn’t stupid. DPS meters undeniably create toxicity.
FF: If a group fails a DPS check, everyone will try harder, because it’s not possible to see who is struggling the most.
WoW: If a group fails a DPS check, the one who has the lowest DPS gets kicked immediately.

Which game of those two do you want to play? After 10 years of WoW where I was afraid to even try raiding, I’m glad I’m playing FF instead now. DPS meters are not necessary at all and the day FF allows them, will be the day I quit FF.

You can easily pinpoint a low-performing player even without a DPS meter. Experienced players can immediately tell who doesn’t know their rotation even without a DPS meter. There’s no need to reduce group effort to plain numbers like in WoW.

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Originally Posted by JOsha

But to what degree would they work is the question? Would you be banned for using QoL plugins without which the game is quite literally unplayable for many people and SE is far too lazy these days to even consider adding them.What about Gshade?

I feel like SE truly doesn't care about QoL, HUD or Gshade stuff, but they are bothered by Raid cheats and I'm not sure if they could find a way to prevent one without preventing the others which is likely why they haven't come up with an anti-cheat yet.

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They don't. A mod called Hvinire already mentioned as much as far back as 2013.

Third party tools like reshade seem to be fine, and I'll get to a technicality later. Tools that give an unfair advantage such as housing bots, market bots, gathering bots, overlays, and yes, even zoom hacks, are not allowed. Cosmetic things aren't fine, but there's no motivation to check files or persecute people as long as they are quiet about it.

Their stance has always been "They aren't allowed. But we have no intention of going after people who use it unless it's made public or it's causing problems".

Yoshida usually says so every time there's an interview. But the one time he didn't put in that disclaimer, encompassed every potential third party tool regardless of impact in gameplay or fairness, is the one time people decide to ignore everything else Yoshida said so far and start going nuts about their existence. All about one sentence.

This topic isn't new, and his responses aren't new either. Everyone and their grandmother has heard it all before. This is from a 14h livestream on 10-08-2022.

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Q3: During the previous PLL you mentioned that if we are just playing it normally this shouldn't be concerning us and we have been playing things normally but I do see terms like third party tools that are against the rules and regulations being listed as required in Lodestone or mentioned in forums, and I personally dislike talking about third party tools so to have to mention to these players about how using third party tools during recruitment and whatnot are being forbidden really makes me sad sometimes, so if you have plans on trying to provide warning to those who continue using third party tools, or any plans that deal with those who use third party tools, I would like to know.

YoshiP: We have no plans in trying to delve into this issue any further. I am aware of how impactful my words are when it comes to this issue, so if I were to keep on providing explanation further about this issue like saying using such and such in particular is against the ToS it will cause a terrifying amount of mass reports and it becomes a issue of what's the point of even playing the game.....so yeah. And if you are to ask me if I would go my way to crack down on third party sites that upload everyone's data (it's obvious that he mentions FFLOGS in this case), and this..well I am aware of how much of the nuisance that site caused, having to see the numbers we don't want to see, that are normally not displayed in the game and then get told about it ...but as mentioned before that if we are told that this concerns personal issues it's not something we could........this is something we have to keep fighting with, and that could end up really unhealthy I think...of course if we could quash them for causing such trouble we could have done it.

But still......I mean, this is related to the conversation we had earlier but to define all things in black and white is something I think I find it stiff....of course this depends on personality as well... of course my real intention here is to do things that are fun, and this is what I've been doing up till now and I try to avoid doing things that cause people discomfort...still, this is getting out of topic but I believe I've been saying more than what I should have in this matter as a member of this company, as a board director, as a gamer, in personal capacity and as someone who obtained full trust from the company, and I've likely touched on this topic more than I should have. So I don't think I'll be able to step into this issue anymore and I think we had enough debates about this already..so yeah, I don't want this game to end up a game that mainly cracks things down and I don't want to create a game like this either. If we have to remove everything then might as well not work on the game and it'll be a game where everything becomes a mess. So even if I get pressed on the issue it's going to be nothing but trouble so yeah I'm sorry that's going to be the answer I'll provide

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And this is from a statement done shortly before 5.2 in February 2020.

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Another topic they wanna discuss are 3rd party tools
"Since the player base increased a lot, I feel like I should talk about this because of the different backgrounds players have"
"It is against the ToS to use 3rd party tools, please refrain from using them. There can be consequences like penalties to your account"
"But what about apps like Discord, being in voice chat technically is using a 3rd party tool"
"There isn't really anything "bad" happening to the game if you use these apps, not like you are rewriting data or input anything into the game... so it is hard to draw the line between tools we "accept" and the ones that break the game"
"DPS meters simply add the numbers that are shown in your battle logs... It isn't accessing game files. What if I get asked "So can i use a calculator instead?"... Really?"
"I am an engineer myself, I understand you could just write an Excel macro to read the log file after a fight is done. But I am taking a stance on this, we won't know what you have installed on your PC, but 3rd party tools are against the ToS, grey zone is still grey, I am asking you to not use these 3rd party tools"

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They've literally never allowed 3rd party tools of any kind, and while they recognize the utility brough by some, they still would prefer to discourage it. They operate mostly on a "don't ask don't tell" policy, but definitely do take matters when someone is caught.

Everyone knows this. This is how it's been like for years. Yoshida saying "No third party tool is allowed" won't change it.

And he defined 3rd Party Tools in the 9th of May of last year in the Lodestone here.

The only one that I think pertains to shaders in any way might be the UI modifications, which he defined as

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tools to expand the HUD and display more information because they feel that existing functions are insufficient for tackling high-end duties

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He wants to discourage their use and implement them into the game, least of which to give Console players with difficulties a fair chance. Which is fine. It's even desirable. However, shaders don't expand or display any more information, they just alter the visual information you get. NVidia has such tools, and you kind of can't stop NVidia from loading them since that's what's going to render the game altogether. And if what the shader is doing is making the information that's there visible to you so that you can understand it the same way others do (ie, if you're colourblind), is that considered additional information, or is it not? This is debateable. Because on one hand you can argue that it's not, it's the same sort of information everyone else but you has had... but at the same time, Console players won't be allowed to have this sort of tool, sooo.... :shrug:

TLDR: it really doesn't matter. No tool is allowed, but as long as you're not being an idiot and displaying it out to the world, you're fine. There are some tools that SE acknowledges and will try to bring them in to discourage others from using.

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Originally Posted by Tulvi

No imho it isn’t stupid. DPS meters undeniably create toxicity.
FF: If a group fails a DPS check, everyone will try harder, because it’s not possible to see who is struggling the most.
WoW: If a group fails a DPS check, the one who has the lowest DPS gets kicked immediately.

Which game of those two do you want to play? After 10 years of WoW where I was afraid to even try raiding, I’m glad I’m playing FF instead now. DPS meters are not necessary at all and the day FF allows them, will be the day I quit FF.

You can easily pinpoint a low-performing player even without a DPS meter. Experienced players can immediately tell who doesn’t know their rotation even without a DPS meter. There’s no need to reduce group effort to plain numbers like in WoW.

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No, bad players not carrying their weight create toxicity, not meters. Also given your numbers of course a community that actively dismisses bads would make you "afraid"

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

This is one of the most ignorant posts in this thread lol.

Who are YOU to tell someone they're playing wrong? Who are YOU to complain about how people enjoy the game? Who are YOU to say it's wrong for people to enjoy trying to parse well? Who are you to claim your subjective opinion on the weapon appearance is fact (spoilers: I think almost all of the ultimate weapon skins are ugly).

Why do you think people raiding to parse aren't "doing it for the challenge"? The sheer arrogance of this post to act like your way of playing is the only correct way of playing, good lord.

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1. First of all, it isn’t only my way of playing the game. The devs of the game clearly don’t want players to use these tools especially in PvE, because they create an unfair advantage. So if somebody clears an Ultimate with these tools and apparently thanks to these tools, they have not cleared the content as intended by the devs. In a sense they’ve cleared something else.

2. Most of the time, what wipes parties in FF is not DPS checks, it is incorrectly solved mechanics or standing in an AoE. Therefore using DPS meters brings no value to the fight. Regarding other tools, like zoom hacks and mechanics solvers / announcements, I stand by my claim that people who need them, are not playing the content as intended and are missing the entire point of high-end content in FF14. Which again, is not about DPS, but about solving mechanics.

I know, I've read the statements. All I'm saying is that while they have to say they don't support them or allow them, they just don't care if you're using non-hacky plugins. Or at least if you're not going around advertising about their usage in-game, you're free to go. They know the backlash if they tried to prevent all plugins which is why they haven't made an "anti-cheat" yet,

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Fine don't call it cheating nevertheless it is a prohibited action within FFXIV end of the day it is something they devs have repeatedly asked the community to not use or do in of form of don't use or be open about the use of third party add-ons or tools.

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No.

They talked about cosmetic mods specifically more than once and said "don't talk about using them and we don't have a problem."

The billboard goons didn't catch bans, you think the poor Hrothgar who wants to wear the new Valentione's hat is gonna?

Yes, they said don't be OPEN. But that's the extent.

Now with actual hacks? Yeah. Yoshi P has said don't use hacks. Please stop conflating the two because it's a really bad look.

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Originally Posted by Tulvi

No imho it isn’t stupid. DPS meters undeniably create toxicity.
FF: If a group fails a DPS check, everyone will try harder, because it’s not possible to see who is struggling the most.WoW: If a group fails a DPS check, the one who has the lowest DPS gets kicked immediately..

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Is that the fantasy you live in? Clearly shows you've never done any hard content in-game, definitely not via the PF at least. People just leave or complain if the party keeps failing a DPS check.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

No, bad players not carrying their weight create toxicity, not meters. Also given your numbers of course a community that actively dismisses bads would make you "afraid"

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Bad players create toxicity? Sorry, but then we understand toxicity differently. I have never seen a bad player insult the good ones when being called out, only apologise and express willingness to learn. But I’ve seen too much of “bro, your DPS sucks” (followed by a kick from a party in WoW without any discussion).

It isn’t toxic to not know your class 100% or make an occasional mistake.
It could be toxic only in case of trolling, but that’s a completely different discussion.

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Originally Posted by Tulvi

Bad players create toxicity? Sorry, but then we understand toxicity differently. I have never seen a bad player insult the good ones when being called out, only apologise and express willingness to learn. But I’ve seen too much of “bro, your DPS sucks” (followed by a kick from a party in WoW without any discussion).

It isn’t toxic to not know your class 100% or make an occasional mistake.
It could be toxic only in case of trolling, but that’s a completely different discussion.

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It is objectively toxic to not carry your weight in a cooperative setting. And the example you listed was not toxic. They gave a factual reason, left it at that, and mercilessly excised the problem player

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Originally Posted by JOsha

Is that the fantasy you live in? Clearly shows you've never done any hard content in-game, definitely not via the PF at least. People just leave or complain if the party keeps failing a DPS check.

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I do Extreme trials in PF mostly. And I have never seen anyone leave because of a failed DPS check. Tbh, I’ve never seen anyone fail a DPS check other that enrage. 100% of my experience with people leaving is when somebody fails a mechanic, not a DPS check.

Also since I do mostly only Extreme trials, usually the only DPS check there is the enrage. If we fail it, no one leaves because we know we can do it as we are really close to kill.

I can’t speak for Savage as I rarely do them, because progging it requires a static and I’m not playing the game on a scheduled basis. So if there are more DPS checks in Savage, then sure, I can see why would people leave, but my personal experience from Extremes is that DPS check is never the reason to leave and I really never seen it happen.

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Originally Posted by Tulvi

1. First of all, it isn’t only my way of playing the game. The devs of the game clearly don’t want players to use these tools especially in PvE, because they create an unfair advantage. So if somebody clears an Ultimate with these tools and apparently thanks to these tools, they have not cleared the content as intended by the devs. In a sense they’ve cleared something else.

2. Most of the time, what wipes parties in FF is not DPS checks, it is incorrectly solved mechanics or standing in an AoE. Therefore using DPS meters brings no value to the fight. Regarding other tools, like zoom hacks and mechanics solvers / announcements, I stand by my claim that people who need them, are not playing the content as intended and are missing the entire point of high-end content in FF14. Which again, is not about DPS, but about solving mechanics.

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...okay, enough of this please.

If you are going to start debating on this topic, at least make sure you understand what actually is being used, how it affects the gameplay and whether or not led to the current problem. You and everyone else.

1 - Parsing does not create an unfair advantage*. What it does is present numbers to you. The issue with parses that makes them illegal isn't the fact that people can know numbers or not. Those numbers are available on the Battle chat, so if anyone collects it, runs it through excel and makes a graph, it might take a long time but it's still going to yield the same result. What makes them legal is that this information is being accessed directly from the server and calculated in real time. And there's a potential danger that it can then be used to harass others on the spot.
FFLogs doesn't give anyone any upper edge. All it does is take all that data, whether from Excel or from ACT (but since ACT is a lot more standardized and less prone to mistakes, that's what they'll take) and make it public. The illegality here is having in-game stuff being made public outside of Lodestone, and again the aforementioned potential danger for harassment.
*You can argue, however, that the advantage exists against Console players, which is a correct statement to make. But the use of parsing alone does not mean you will have an advantage of clearing the fight, which was what you're saying.

No one clears Ultimate because they know how much the Bard dealt damage. That's not how it works.

Stuff like Cactbot are things attached onto ACT which give out call-outs by parsing server information. That is an advantage.
And what led to this particular Ultimate being cleared were people using zoomhacks to get information that wouldn't otherwise be displayed to them in full. That is an advantage.
Same for UWU whose script was datamined and later used to clear the fight. That was an advantage that people who got that information had.

ACT doesn't enable datamining or zoomhacking, but does enable Cactbot. Not by default, however, and Cactbot needs to be programmed to work out the fight. So the fight needs to be cleared first so Cactbot is then fed.

People who parse aren't cheating just because they parse, they're just being fed information that would be monotonous otherwise to obtain.
Prior to 6.3, you could argue "Ah, but they're getting information on which hit is magical or physical". That advantage no longer exists.
You could argue "Ah but now they have a more accurate timeline of the fight", which sure, but they won't be keeping track of time. To do so, you'd need other tools than parsing. And at that point, you're already going outside of parsing altogether. Not everyone who uses parsing tools does this, and to claim that they do is just unrealistic and fearmongering.

What led to this ultimate being cleared was Zoom Hacks. Not parsing. It never was parsing.

2- Failing DPS checks is too broad a thing to point out, you know? Because if the majority of the party is dead or has died recently and has the penalty, they will not get enough DPS in the long run to clear things. And nothing kills more people than mechanics that weren't properly executed. So one leads to the other: both statements are correct.

And the people who are using zoomhacks and call-out bots like Cactbot inherently are cheating anyway, so...

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Originally Posted by Tulvi

1. First of all, it isn’t only my way of playing the game. The devs of the game clearly don’t want players to use these tools especially in PvE, because they create an unfair advantage. So if somebody clears an Ultimate with these tools and apparently thanks to these tools, they have not cleared the content as intended by the devs. In a sense they’ve cleared something else.

2. Most of the time, what wipes parties in FF is not DPS checks, it is incorrectly solved mechanics or standing in an AoE. Therefore using DPS meters brings no value to the fight. Regarding other tools, like zoom hacks and mechanics solvers / announcements, I stand by my claim that people who need them, are not playing the content as intended and are missing the entire point of high-end content in FF14. Which again, is not about DPS, but about solving mechanics.

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Lmao, there are many different ways of playing this game, that's one of the joys of an MMO. There is nothing wrong with people wanting to improve their skill level and ability to perform in the game. And until you pay other peoples' subs, you can get right down off your audacity and arrogance filled high horse telling other people how to play the game. You realize SE knows ACT and FFLogs exists and if they really wanted to, they could nuke them right? Really makes you wonder why they don't.

The absolute arrogance of your posts is amazing to the point between that and the fact that you're yet another account that comes here with a very low post count just indicates you're only here to stir the pot like so many others. You've all come crawling out of the woodwork and it's honestly hilarious.

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Originally Posted by JOsha

I know, I've read the statements. All I'm saying is that while they have to say they don't support them or allow them, they just don't care if you're using non-hacky plugins. Or at least if you're not going around advertising about their usage in-game, you're free to go. They know the backlash if they tried to prevent all plugins which is why they haven't made an "anti-cheat" yet,

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Yeah, I know. I'm not disagreeing with you :p I just know how very stable geniuses in this thread like to be.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

It is objectively toxic to not carry your weight in a cooperative setting. And the example you listed was not toxic. They gave a factual reason, left it at that, and mercilessly excised the problem player

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It is only toxic if they do not carry their weight ON PURPOSE. Not knowing enough is not toxic. Do you really expect everyone to be on top of their game, even if they’ve never done high-end content before?

And I must disagree. Kicking somebody without giving them a chance to do better is toxic and incredibly rude.

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Originally Posted by Tulvi

If anyone needs a 3rd party plugin that solves the mechanics for them to clear high end content, they are a bad player and clearly don’t have the skill level for that content.
Also if anyone needs to see their DPS value, they are not playing the content for the reward (which is a beautiful weapon), but they are playing to min-max.

If you need any of this to enjoy the game, then you are not only playing the game incorrectly, but also not playing the right game for you. This is not an esports game and we have no official leaderboards showing how long it took which team to kill a boss.
Addons for PvE content are not quality of life features, they are only an ego boost.

I don’t raid much, but when I do, I do it for the challenge, and not to circumnavigate my way around the challenge.

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https://i.imgur.com/HsboV9i.jpg

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Originally Posted by Tulvi

And I must disagree. Kicking somebody without giving them a chance to do better is toxic and incredibly rude.

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Oh look at that, something else you're wrong about. You're allowed to remove anyone you wish from your PF party for any reason at all.
In Duty Finder, you may vote kick anyone for as simple a reason as "difference in playstyle".

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Originally Posted by Tulvi

It is only toxic if they do not carry their weight ON PURPOSE. Not knowing enough is not toxic. Do you really expect everyone to be on top of their game, even if they’ve never done high-end content before?

And I must disagree. Kicking somebody without giving them a chance to do better is toxic and incredibly rude.

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You agreeing or not is irrelevant. It was a factual statement. This is 2023, the internet exists. Ignorance and therefore being bad, is a choice. Like how you have chosen to be a bad

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Originally Posted by Tulvi

Also since I do mostly only Extreme trials, usually the only DPS check there is the enrage

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Exactly, they barely even qualify as a dps check, savage and ultimate dps checks are on a whole other level.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

Lmao, there are many different ways of playing this game, that's one of the joys of an MMO. There is nothing wrong with people wanting to improve their skill level and ability to perform in the game. And until you pay other peoples' subs, you can get right down off your audacity and arrogance filled high horse telling other people how to play the game. You really SE knows ACT and FFLogs exists and if they really wanted to, they could nuke them right? Really makes you wonder why they don't.

The absolute arrogance of your posts is amazing to the point between that and the fact that you're yet another account that comes here with a very low post count just indicates you're only here to stir the pot like so many others. You've all come crawling out of the woodwork and it's honestly hilarious.

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What has a post count anything to do with what I’m saying? I just rarely post on the forums.

And I’m not talking about different play styles or looking for something different in the game. If people do Ultimates for the gear, fine. If they do them for the challenge and don’t mind the gear, also fine.

All I’m saying is that they shouldn’t cheat their way to whatever they are looking for in that content.

Because if someone uses mechanics-solving / assisting addons to clear an Ultimate while doing it for the gear - they are cheating to get the gear faster.
And if someone uses mechanics-solving / assisting addons to clear an Ultimate but they are only interested in the challenge - they get rid of the true nature of that challenge by cheating with addons.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

Oh look at that, something else you're wrong about. You're allowed to remove anyone you wish from your PF party for any reason at all.
In Duty Finder, you may vote kick anyone for as simple a reason as "difference in playstyle".

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The fact that we have an option to kick players (no matter the reason), doesn’t mean we should jump straight to kicking them without making an effort to let them improve. Do you automatically vote to kick people from an Alliance raid if they fail a mechanic? I doubt it. All I said is that it is toxic to kick somebody WITHOUT giving them a fair chance to do better the following run.

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Originally Posted by Tulvi

1. First of all, it isn’t only my way of playing the game. The devs of the game clearly don’t want players to use these tools especially in PvE, because they create an unfair advantage. So if somebody clears an Ultimate with these tools and apparently thanks to these tools, they have not cleared the content as intended by the devs. In a sense they’ve cleared something else.

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It's definitely an advantage to NEED AddOns to fix the Job the game's own developers broke and refuse to hotfix: see Ninja Mudras. I get it, Cactbot and AoE telegraphers really dumb down the encounter - honestly, people who use these and then shriek at you for not being an endgame player and still telling them how to play don't have a good leg to stand on - but there really is no denying that plugins can do a LOT that make the game fun and wondrous. There's one that always displays your location next to your World for example, and honestly I'm baffled that's not default. Can just open the Map, I know, but when small micro-problems like this happen it builds up. I've seen GShade and custom-pose screenshots, and I feel envious at times. On the one hand, you have the Cactpot solver. On the other, you have something that actually makes the countdown in-game not as awful as it is. OFC, who can forget the Viera/Hrothgar fixers? The world of plugins is huge, they enrich the game as often as they make it brainless, so if you want to go around angrily shoving the ToS and Yoshida's statements in people's faces, carry on with knowledge.

I encourage anyone wanting to engage in vigilante justice to understand how AddOns work, how open-source they are, and how they go past your average callout bot to better the game, fix where the developers messed up. "Know thy enemy" as is said.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

It's definitely an advantage to NEED AddOns to fix the Job the game's own developers broke and refuse to hotfix: see Ninja Mudras. I get it, Cactbot and AoE telegraphers really dumb down the encounter - honestly, people who use these and then shriek at you for not being an endgame player and still telling them how to play don't have a good leg to stand on - but there really is no denying that plugins can do a LOT that make the game fun and wondrous. There's one that always displays your location next to your World for example, and honestly I'm baffled that's not default. Can just open the Map, I know, but when small micro-problems like this happen it builds up. I've seen GShade and custom-pose screenshots, and I feel envious at times. On the one hand, you have the Cactpot solver. On the other, you have something that actually makes the countdown in-game not as awful as it is. OFC, who can forget the Viera/Hrothgar fixers? The world of plugins is huge, they enrich the game as often as they make it brainless, so if you want to go around angrily shoving the ToS and Yoshida's statements in people's faces, carry on with knowledge.

I encourage anyone wanting to engage in vigilante justice to understand how AddOns work, how open-source they are, and how they go past your average callout bot to better the game, fix where the developers messed up. "Know thy enemy" as is said.

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Absolutely agreed. My whole point from the beginning was not against every addon, but specifically those that create an unfair advantage (zoom hack, mechanics announcers / solvers etc.) or create toxicity (DPS meters).

That Ninja issue is all on SE and they should be ashamed that a 3rd party plugin fixes what they refuse to fix. Same goes for Viera and hats. If an addon can fix that, then SE’s claims about “impossibility of a fix due to head model shape” is just pure laziness.

There clearly are QoL addons and blatant cheating addons. I only have a problem with the cheating ones.

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Originally Posted by Tulvi

Absolutely agreed. My whole point from the beginning was not against every addon, but specifically those that create an unfair advantage (zoom hack, mechanics announcers / solvers etc.) or create toxicity (DPS meters).

That Ninja issue is all on SE and they should be ashamed that a 3rd party plugin fixes what they refuse to fix. Same goes for Viera and hats. If an addon can fix that, then SE’s claims about “impossibility of a fix due to head model shape” is just pure laziness.

There clearly are QoL addons and blatant cheating addons. I only have a problem with the cheating ones.

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If this is the case, you should have worded your original post better instead of making it seem like you're attacking people for having a different idea of a playstyle than what you have. You would have had people actually agreeing with you (except about the ACT creating toxicity part), because yes, the cheating mods definitely gotta go. However, this is not the message that you got across in your first post.

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Originally Posted by Tulvi

I do Extreme trials in PF mostly. And I have never seen anyone leave because of a failed DPS check. Tbh, I’ve never seen anyone fail a DPS check other that enrage. 100% of my experience with people leaving is when somebody fails a mechanic, not a DPS check.

Also since I do mostly only Extreme trials, usually the only DPS check there is the enrage. If we fail it, no one leaves because we know we can do it as we are really close to kill.

I can’t speak for Savage as I rarely do them, because progging it requires a static and I’m not playing the game on a scheduled basis. So if there are more DPS checks in Savage, then sure, I can see why would people leave, but my personal experience from Extremes is that DPS check is never the reason to leave and I really never seen it happen.

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I will say that savage dps checks tend to be far more punishing than extreme dps checks. as long as the party isn't dying left and right, it's very unlikely to see enrage in extremes (like I really never see it, either we wipe to mechanics or clear), but in savage it's a lot harder. I mostly play with a static, but if I'm in a pf and we're wiping multiple times to a dps check, I do leave the party because it's often a sign that we'll just be wiping to enrage until the lockout ends.

This is assuming it's a reclear party, though. If I'm in a prog party I don't really care, but joining a reclear party implies that you are able to do the fight consistently and do enough damage to kill the boss, so i think it's kind of fair to say that if someone joins a party with specific expectations, they should be able to meet those expectations. that being said, I don't really see people getting kicked for their dps blatantly. normally the parties will just disband, in my experience. I've actually never seen anyone call out another player in chat for low dps, only players that are consistently failing mechs that they should be able to do if they're in a reclear party.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

If this is the case, you should have worded your original post better instead of making it seem like you're attacking people for having a different idea of a playstyle than what you have. You would have had people actually agreeing with you (except about the ACT creating toxicity part), because yes, the cheating mods definitely gotta go. However, this is not the message that you got across in your first post.

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Sure, looking back I can see where exactly I could’ve worded it better or explain my point in more detail. Especially the play style part. I’ve tried to explain it better later. It’s absolutely fine to look for different things in a game, even in an Ultimate. But Ultimate is specific because of the challenge it provides.

No matter what one is looking for in an Ultimate raid, clearing it with an addon that creates an unfair advantage (e.g. zoom hack) is still not right and it takes away a huge portion of the challenge. Let’s say I would want a weapon from an Ultimate. If I cleared it using a zoom hack, I would have not only cheated, but also missed the whole point of doing an Ultimate (“playing the game incorrectly”).

When it comes to DPS meters, I just really have the experience of these being used much more to either flex or harass other players, than to optimise gameplay and become a better player. I’ve ofc seen DPS meters being used to help someone get better, but only rarely. If I recall correctly, these are the reasons Yoshi refuses to give them a pass in FF, which is what made me love FF even more when I learnt about his stance on this.
And since the devs’ official stance on DPS meters is that they are against them, I’d expect people that prog Ultimate to not use them. Aren’t raiders that prog Ultimate usually the most skilled players anyway? Don’t they form static groups with people they know are good at their classes?

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Originally Posted by Tulvi

Sure, looking back I can see where exactly I could’ve worded it better or explain my point in more detail. Especially the play style part. I’ve tried to explain it better later. It’s absolutely fine to look for different things in a game, even in an Ultimate. But Ultimate is specific because of the challenge it provides.

No matter what one is looking for in an Ultimate raid, clearing it with an addon that creates an unfair advantage (e.g. zoom hack) is still not right and it takes away a huge portion of the challenge. Let’s say I would want a weapon from an Ultimate. If I cleared it using a zoom hack, I would have not only cheated, but also missed the whole point of doing an Ultimate (“playing the game incorrectly”).

When it comes to DPS meters, I just really have the experience of these being used much more to either flex or harass other players, than to optimise gameplay and become a better player. I’ve ofc seen DPS meters being used to help someone get better, but only rarely. If I recall correctly, these are the reasons Yoshi refuses to give them a pass in FF, which is what made me love FF even more when I learnt about his stance on this.
And since the devs’ official stance on DPS meters is that they are against them, I’d expect people that prog Ultimate to not use them. Aren’t raiders that prog Ultimate usually the most skilled players anyway? Don’t they form static groups with people they know are good at their classes?

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I think everyone that's reasonable is against cheating mods, despite the crap some people in this thread have tried to fling at myself and others ("you disagreed with me therefore you're defending mods and are a cheater yourself" among other idiotic attacks).

Regarding DPS meters, I mean, sure, but part of learning the optimal way to play their jobs and all that literally comes from the information ACT provides, because the game itself does a pisspoor job of doing it for us. I'm pretty sure The Balance, the discord that helps people with optimizing their rotations, wouldn't exist without ACT, meaning we would have very little idea how to actually make sure we're playing our jobs correctly, something that's definitely needed for ultimates.

And it's because of SE's stance on mods that ACT will never become the toxic cancer that people are scared of. The way this game is handled, both by the community and the devs, ensures that it will not, and as long as people are smart about it and not complete idiots, we can safely fall back on YoshiP's stance of "don't ask don't tell, we're not going to hunt you down unless you show it, and I don't want players witch hunting other players over it".

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Originally Posted by Tulvi

FF: If a group fails a DPS check, everyone will try harder, because it’s not possible to see who is struggling the most.

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This is an incredibly naive mindset. How can everyone "try harder" when no one has the slightest clue why they reached enrage? You mention having only really done Extremes. So here's the thing. Extremes have a comically low threshold to clear. Rubicante can allow upwards of like 8+ deaths and you'll still make the check provided everyone knows what they're doing. This is very much not the case for Savage, especially in the early weeks. Even after the nerf and three weeks worth of gear, you'll still see enrage without everyone pumping in P8S. You really can't compare the two until after you start getting gear which neuters the DPS check quite significantly.

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Originally Posted by Tulvi

And I must disagree. Kicking somebody without giving them a chance to do better is toxic and incredibly rude.

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A party leader is under no obligation to give you any chance. In fact, they can kick you simply for disliking your glamour. It's their party after all. Now most parties won't kick immediately and give people a chance to work out whatever kinks they need but if you're messing up several times then it's well within their right to rep you. Although, even in such a scenario a lot of people will simply disband and possibly reform with the good players.

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Originally Posted by Tulvi

And since the devs’ official stance on DPS meters is that they are against them, I’d expect people that prog Ultimate to not use them. Aren’t raiders that prog Ultimate usually the most skilled players anyway? Don’t they form static groups with people they know are good at their classes?

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Let me give you a scenario I ran into a while back that really highlights why parsers are so useful.

Back near the end Shadowbringers I was helping a friend clear TEA. Now three of us were using relics and nearly everyone had dungeon BiS which is a massive upswing in damage from when the fight released. Nevertheless, we still saw enrage clean on more than one occasion. Which just shouldn't happen. I cleared TEA on content with far less gear. So the raid lead and I started looking through logs to determine the issue. Turns out neither healer had optimizing their healing and were essentially healing over each other and not dealing damage. They were a combined 2,000 below expected DPS relative to other groups. My co-tank was also struggling. Without ACT and FFlogs, you'd be inclined to put that blame on the DPS since it's a DPS check and all. They were all fine. Sure, they could have pumped out a little more but at that point you're squeezing blood from a stone.

Once we sorted out that issue and the healers focused more on improving their DPS, we cleared.

At the high-end level parsers are simply far too valuable a tool in a game centered around DPS. I can assure you their removal would actually lead to more toxicity because now you'd have people blindly pointing the finger at each other without any idea who's actually struggling.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

This is an incredibly naive mindset. How can everyone "try harder" when no one has the slightest clue why they reached enrage? You mention having only really done Extremes. So here's the thing. Extremes have a comically low threshold to clear. Rubicante can allow upwards of like 8+ deaths and you'll still make the check provided everyone knows what they're doing. This is very much not the case for Savage, especially in the early weeks. Even after the nerf and three weeks worth of gear, you'll still see enrage without everyone pumping in P8S. You really can't compare the two until after you start getting gear which neuters the DPS check quite significantly.



A party leader is under no obligation to give you any chance. In fact, they can kick you simply for displaying your glamour. It's their party after all. Now most parties won't kick immediately and give people a chance to work out whatever kinks they need but if you're messing up several times then it's well within their right to rep you. Although, even in such a scenario a lot of people will simply disband and possibly reform with the good players.



Let me give you a scenario I ran into a while back that really highlights why parsers are so useful.

Back near the end Shadowbringers I was helping a friend clear TEA. Now three of us were using relics and nearly everyone had dungeon BiS which is a massive upswing in damage from when the fight released. Nevertheless, we still saw enrage clean on more than one occasion. Which just shouldn't happen. I cleared TEA on content with far less gear. So the raid lead and I started looking through logs to determine the issue. Turns out neither healer had optimizing their healing and were essentially healing over each other and not dealing damage. They were a combined 2,000 below expected DPS relative to other groups. My co-tank was also struggling. Without ACT and FFlogs, you'd be inclined to put that blame on the DPS since it's a DPS check and all. They were all fine. Sure, they could have pumped out a little more but at that point you're squeezing blood from a stone.

Once we sorted out that issue and the healers focused more on improving their DPS, we cleared.

At the high-end level parsers are simply far too valuable a tool in a game centered around DPS. I can assure you their removal would actually lead to more toxicity because now you'd have people blindly pointing the finger at each other without any idea who's actually struggling.

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A lot of people who don’t touch higher end content don’t realize that in higher end content healer dps isn’t optional, optimization is mandatory. There is no way to meet the p4 dps check in TOP without healers pumping

After this post I am cancelling my sub. I will wait for the future of this game. It's weird for a company to leave cheating as a sanctioned thing. It's one thing if it isn't against ToS like blizzard does for WoW, but to have it against ToS and fully enabled without punishment even when people are openly admitting to using addons and breaking ToS on the official forums.

For people to be shaming players by bringing up their parses to use against them on the official forums as addon users, when the people they are shaming just play the game as a fun rpg because they know that it's not currently a legitimate experience in regards to fair play... It's just weird and toxic. I don't think this community should exist as is. I don't want to support this company as is, and I don't feel good being in this world anymore.

It was just an RPG to me, but now it's become something tainted after the omega controversy bringing how bad the problem actually is to light. Something has to change.

"Xeno's honest thoughts on the cheating drama" watch this video on youtube without feeling sick. It's a test to see how honest you are.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

It was just an RPG to me, but now it's become something tainted after the omega controversy bringing how bad the problem actually is to light. Something has to change.

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If you're just here to chill and have fun in a RPG, then that sounds like a 100% you problem because that shouldn't be able to "taint" anything for you.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

If you're just here to chill and have fun in a RPG, then that sounds like a 100% you problem because that shouldn't be able to "taint" anything for you.

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I'm not just here for that reason by choice, I am here for that reason because the game has been tainted by players who break the tos in a belligerent way. I'd like to engage in the game further, just not like this. You people make it unappealing to people like me who value fair play.

You can deflect and feign innocence all you want, but you know what you're doing to this game.