*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

Black-masked Ascians.

---

They never did enough with those, in fact, aside from the SMN quests I don't recall seeing another black-masked Ascian past ARR?

They also got Varis to drink the kool-aid and convinced him to continue conquering the world and fire off Calamities back-to-back so that we can be a "united single race".

All of Ilsabard was under Garlean control as well as most of Othard for a time so it could be said that most of the world was under the Ascians. Eorzea by comparison to the rest of the 3 great continents is a primitive backwater full of bickering city-states that didn't even have standing armies until 5 years ago. It's just that all the interesting stuff happens here and also where all the ancient world-shattering artifacts just happen to be buried.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rulakir

They never did enough with those, in fact, aside from the SMN quests I don't recall seeing another black-masked Ascian past ARR?

---

They're mentioned to have been the ones stirring up trouble during Elidibus' arc in 5.2/5.3.

Also this is more of a mystery than war story compared to WoW, so they don't use an overt army and act through proxies (Allag, Garlemald, Eulmore, etc).

Good point(s). Given the dominance and success of the nations Emet designed there would've been little need for any sort of 'Cult of the Damned'. I'd still like to know how the black-masks were found/recruited.

Eh I'm really thinking along the lines of after the sundering when the memory of the unsundered world (even if most of the memory had faded) was still remembered somewhat. They had a perfect opportunity to do what they could to sway the people to their side and allow for the rejoining to happen of their own free will. Also, do everything they could to protect them until they had become unsundered.

The United single race as Varis "drank the kool-aid for" has been proven correct and that they were one at one point as well as the promises of Immortality to a certain degree as well as a certain point of view. Instead they allowed the people to forget. Allowed Hydaelyn to do her propaganda with her chosen Warriors of Light and then screwed over one of the Shards by Igeyohrm causing it to become the void. A perfect opportunity on their part all wasted when they chose the destructive path.

The Ascians managed to convince a good number of players their cause and costs were worthy; I don't see why it would be any less effective in-universe.

There were faint memories of the World Unsundered ("Age of Gods"), but it's been approximately 12,000 years since then. Even for the handful of surviving unsundered Ancients, that's implied to be an incredibly long time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rannie

The United single race as Varis "drank the kool-aid for" has been proven correct and that they were one at one point as well as the promises of Immortality to a certain degree as well as a certain point of view. Instead they allowed the people to forget. Allowed Hydaelyn to do her propaganda with her chosen Warriors of Light and then screwed over one of the Shards by Igeyohrm causing it to become the void. A perfect opportunity on their part all wasted when they chose the destructive path.

---

As evidenced by Shadowbringers, not everyone can have the potential to awake to the Echo which means not everyone is a partial soul reincarnated from an Ancient, only a slim minority are. Which means his plan would see the destruction of most everybody possibly including Varis himself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

As evidenced by Shadowbringers, not everyone can have the potential to awake to the Echo which means not everyone is a partial soul reincarnated from an Ancient, only a slim minority are. Which means his plan would see the destruction of most everybody possibly including Varis himself.

---

It actually would kill everybody because it's a two-step plan of complete Rejoining then sacrifice mortals to Zodiark.

Well, Emet says: "The inhabitants of these fourteen fragments were feeble, frail, and foolish. Oblivious to their imperfection, ignorant of their past. Malformed creatures thrashing blindly about. Pitiful. Disturbing. Depressing."

It doesn't sound like the state of the sundered at that time was such that the unsundered thought they could work with them. Plus, I'm sure they were still in shock at what happened.

As for the rest, my interpretation was different. Emet also says (to the WoL): "Should you survive the remaining calamities, you will become our equal. A complete existence in a complete world." There's never any mention of sacrificing the rejoined souls, only the "remaining inhabitants" to specifically "resurrect our brethren who died to bring Zodiark into existence." Killing all of the rejoined Ancients wouldn't make sense.

There's also several points throughout ShB where it's heavily implied having the Echo isn't necessary to be a sundered Ancient. At Qitana Ravel Emet comments, "No one could remember it. Not really. Just fragments and fleeting memories of an achingly familiar world..." Both Ryne and Alisaie mention feeling sadness at Amaurot and after Elidibus' star shower, respectively. Emet also says, of G'raha, "Quite an accomplishment for one of his 'incomplete' nature." G'raha mentions his soul being denser after we 'rejoin' him on the Source as well.

The reality of the situation is that even with Meteion removed the world is still doomed. It will die as a direct result of the people dwelling on it. They've already damaged it almost beyond the point of recovery in the comparatively short time their little civilizations have thrashed around. All getting rid of Meteion did was delay it some more. Better to die whole - die as yourself - than die as some broken thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

The reality of the situation is that even with Meteion removed the world is still doomed. It will die as a direct result of the people dwelling on it. They've already damaged it almost beyond the point of recovery in the comparatively short time their little civilizations have thrashed around. All getting rid of Meteion did was delay it some more. Better to die whole - die as yourself - than die as some broken thing.

---

What an exceptionally edgy take.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

The reality of the situation is that even with Meteion removed the world is still doomed. It will die as a direct result of the people dwelling on it. They've already damaged it almost beyond the point of recovery in the comparatively short time their little civilizations have thrashed around. All getting rid of Meteion did was delay it some more. Better to die whole - die as yourself - than die as some broken thing.

---

Meteion or no, the Ancients' pursuit of perfection would have doomed them one way or another, sooner or later.

It is impossible for anything perfect to exist. By removing your emotions, you have become imperfect, you lack the things that make people...people. Chasing after perfection only leaves a path of destruction behind you until you've reached the point to where...nothing matters. Look at the 2nd and 3rd worlds in The Dead Ends as examples, chasing after true peace left nothing but destruction, and achieving "perfect enlightenment" only led to people wanting to die because there was nothing to live for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

Meteion or no, the Ancients' pursuit of perfection would have doomed them one way or another, sooner or later.

---

This just feels so contrary to all the messages in the story so far. Didn't the arcs for the nations in Heavensward, Stormblood and Shadowbringers, or even within EW itself, show that societies are capable of change? That nothing is as black and white as "they're broken and doomed, better to just kill 'em", and there's always hope so long as there's a tomorrow?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lurina

This just feels so contrary to all the messages in the story so far. Didn't the arcs for the nations in Heavensward, Stormblood and Shadowbringers, or even within EW itself, show that societies are capable of change? That nothing is as black and white as "they're broken and doomed, better to just kill 'em", and there's always hope so long as there's a tomorrow?

---

All after "collapses" in a sense. Ishgard's entire church hierarchy had to come crashing to the ground along with their beliefs, Doma and Ala Mhigo required themselves to be freed from Garlemald, Norvrandt had to be freed from the light and technically Eulmore, Bozja required a lot of lives to be lost and a war before the head of the resistance realized that "villain has a point" in how the IVth treated people, etc. Every single nation had to build back up after the status quo was burned to the ground.

They all began to rebuild and try to move on, something the Ancients seemed to be unable to do, considering they sacrificed people TWICE to Zodiark (after an unknown amount of time between them) and were on their way to a THIRD sacrifice. They couldn't let go and move on, and that was the main difference between the nations we've seen currently ingame and the Ancients.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lurina

This just feels so contrary to all the messages in the story so far. Didn't the arcs for the nations in Heavensward, Stormblood and Shadowbringers, or even within EW itself, show that societies are capable of change? That nothing is as black and white as "they're broken and doomed, better to just kill 'em", and there's always hope so long as there's a tomorrow?

---

The difference is contemporary nations accept their world is imperfect, and strive to make the best of it. The Ancients wouldn't let go of the past, choosing their "perfect paradise free from sorrow" over confronting life's hardships - and indeed, sacrificing the future for the sake of the past. Contemporary people do not do this - the protagonists / "good guys" anyway - and instead learn the lessons of the past for the sake of a better future.

Bleach has its flaws, and the character in question isn't the most morally straight, but Mayuri Kurotsuchi has an excellent speech on why perfection is not worth pursuit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

The difference is contemporary nations accept their world is imperfect, and strive to make the best of it. The Ancients wouldn't let go of the past, choosing their "perfect paradise free from sorrow" over confronting life's hardships - and indeed, sacrificing the future for the sake of the past. Contemporary people do not do this - the protagonists / "good guys" anyway - and instead learn the lessons of the past for the sake of a better future.

Bleach has its flaws, and the character in question isn't the most morally straight, but Mayuri Kurotsuchi has an excellent speech on why perfection is not worth pursuit.

---

How is this any different from Garlemald clinging to their imperial glory, and their past when they didn't live in a snowy wasteland? Or Ishgard clinging to the ancient grudge of the Dragonsong War? Or for an example presented more positively, Ala Mhigo clinging to their days as an independent state?

The story is full of groups who are unable to accept their present day circumstances or what's for the best because of a preoccupation with some past event or glory. But in all of those cases, even if they're depicted as being wrong, it's shown that change is possible - and that they're worth saving in spite of their flaws.

There's nothing that fundamentally separates the toxic nostalgia of the Ancients from the toxic nostalgia from the present day nations. Being willing to condemn one as doomed in absolute terms but not the other feels like a post-hoc justification for why them all dying was okay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lurina

How is this any different from Garlemald clinging to their imperial glory, and their past when they didn't live in a snowy wasteland? Or Ishgard clinging to the ancient grudge of the Dragonsong War? Or for an example presented more positively, Ala Mhigo clinging to their days as an independent state?

The story is full of groups who are unable to accept their present day circumstances or what's for the best because of a preoccupation with some past event or glory. But in all of those cases, even if they're depicted as being wrong, it's shown that change is possible - and that they're worth saving in spite of their flaws.

There's nothing that fundamentally separates the toxic nostalgia of the Ancients from the toxic nostalgia from the present day nations. Being willing to condemn one as doomed in absolute terms but not the other feels like a post-hoc justification for why them all dying was okay.

---

Those toxically nostalgic elements are always presented as antagonistic forces, and we pave the way for a better future by removing them from the equation (often with extreme prejudice, but hey, it's an RPG). Garlemald's warmongering isn't portrayed positively (and mostly predicated on a lie besides). Ishgard (or rather the Church) clinging to the lies that begat a thousand years of bloodshed isn't portrayed positively. Ala Mhigo wants its independence back, but pointedly does not want to go back to how it was before the Imperial occupation because Mad King Theodoric exposed the problems with a monarchial government. The closest you get is actually Doma, but even they acknowledge their society was not perfect and can still improve - that was the whole point of Yotsuyu as a character.

All of the Ancients, excepting Venat and her cabal, wanted to sacrifice tomorrow for yesterday. There were no lies, only delusions of perfection.

The Ancients had to sacrifice themselves for Zodiark because the Final Days had destroyed the world. There was no other sufficient source of aether to tap. This is also on Venat's shoulders for not giving them a heads up but, hey, have to subject mankind to their trial! Only 25% of their population was left, "no small number" of whom were on Venat's side, but that still wasn't sufficient for her apparently unobtainable standards.

I also think the perfection arguments are nonsense. Nobody knows for a fact what the fate of the Ancients was going to be and it certainly wasn't any one individual's moral authority to end it without consent. Apparently their civilization being destroyed by treachery wasn't one of the considerations because that's ultimately what finished them.

The Final Days could have been a turning point if they hadn't been left in the dark about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

Those toxically nostalgic elements are always presented as antagonistic forces, and we pave the way for a better future by removing them from the equation (often with extreme prejudice, but hey, it's an RPG). Garlemald's warmongering isn't portrayed positively (and mostly predicated on a lie besides). Ishgard (or rather the Church) clinging to the lies that begat a thousand years of bloodshed isn't portrayed positively. Ala Mhigo wants its independence back, but pointedly does not want to go back to how it was before the Imperial occupation because Mad King Theodoric exposed the problems with a monarchial government. The closest you get is actually Doma, but even they acknowledge their society was not perfect and can still improve - that was the whole point of Yotsuyu as a character.

All of the Ancients, excepting Venat and her cabal, wanted to sacrifice tomorrow for yesterday. There were no lies, only delusions of perfection.

---

I'm not arguing that the Ancients were in the right for wanting to bring back their old way of life through the sacrifices, I'm arguing that that it goes against everything else the story says - where we're shown time and time again that civilizations can break free of their bad impulses and change, usually by virtue of just a few dissidents willing to make a stink about it - to act like their destruction was some foregone conclusion that would have happened no matter what, even if Meteion wasn't around.

That was what you were originally saying three posts ago, right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rulakir

The Ancients had to sacrifice themselves for Zodiark because the Final Days had destroyed the world.

---

The first sacrifice was necessary certainly and I would agree that the second sacrifice, the one to return the world to an inhabitable state, was also understandable but the toxic nostalgia comes from the planned third sacrifice. The one where the ancients planned to sacrifice non-ancient life in order to bring back the dead who were lost. And on the topic of the final days, could the ancients have actually beaten Meteion? The only reason we were able to get to the point we could fight the Endsinger was because of our ability to interact with Dynamis, Thancred's sacrifice made Ultima Thule both a physical place and have a breathable atmosphere, the sacrifices of the other scions in turn were able to manipulate the surrounding Dynamis to give us a path forward. The ancients aren't able to do any of that, by their own admission they are unable to interact with Dynamis and therefore would have faced far more problems than we did in trying to reach Meteion. Then we have to consider the Endsinger's Ultimate Fate ability, where she mentions the use of dynamis in relation to our first LB3 and in the second instance of it where we only survived because of the scions hope filled prayers. Prayers that were probably more dynamis based than aether.

That is assuming that the ancients would even want to deal with Meteion directly, while I'll admit we only have a limited sample size, Hermes appears to be the only ancient with an interest in what lies beyond their star. And I doubt there would be many others considering their society's focus on stewardship over their specific star. What I think would happen based on what we know of the ancients is that had they known of the final days they would have still summoned a Zodiark like entity to protect their star and then go on as if nothing had changed, dooming the rest of the universe to the song of oblivion. I take this from the fact that if they, as a society, don't seem to be able properly appreciate the nuances of the life they create for their own star why would they care for the life of other stars.

Also it wasn't just one person deciding the fate of the star, while the final Elpis cutscene may seem to imply that Venat did it all on her own we know from the Anamnesis Anyder cutscenes that it was Venat AND a group of others that came together to summon Hydaelyn. That is a problematic part of that cutscene condensing large periods of time into a more symbolic sequence. In fact you even mention that there were people on her side one minute before turning around and saying she did it herself the next.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lurina

I'm not arguing that the Ancients were in the right for wanting to bring back their old way of life through the sacrifices, I'm arguing that that it goes against everything else the story says - where we're shown time and time again that civilizations can break free of their bad impulses and change, usually by virtue of just a few dissidents willing to make a stink about it - to act like their destruction was some foregone conclusion that would have happened no matter what, even if Meteion wasn't around.

That was what you were originally saying three posts ago, right?

---

Yes? Be it an unforeseen natural disaster, a schism within their society, or the heat death of the universe, Amaurotine civilization would not last forever. Nothing does.

That's not to say they shouldn't struggle against the end, but accept that it's inevitable in one form or another. Accepting the transience of all things is a very hard thing to do, but very important for finding true happiness (because happiness doesn't last forever, and it takes effort to achieve).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

Yes? Be it an unforeseen natural disaster, a schism within their society, or the heat death of the universe, Amaurotine civilization would not last forever. Nothing does.

That's not to say they shouldn't struggle against the end, but accept that it's inevitable in one form or another. Accepting the transience of all things is a very hard thing to do, but very important for finding true happiness (because happiness doesn't last forever, and it takes effort to achieve).

---

You said that it was their "pursuit of perfection which would have doomed them sooner or later". That was what I was responding to, not the broader idea that everything will be destroyed eventually by virtue of the nature of reality. I don't think there's anything to indicate their culture was doomed to remain stagnant or to be overcome by the past.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kordarion

Also it wasn't just one person deciding the fate of the star, while the final Elpis cutscene may seem to imply that Venat did it all on her own we know from the Anamnesis Anyder cutscenes that it was Venat AND a group of others that came together to summon Hydaelyn. That is a problematic part of that cutscene condensing large periods of time into a more symbolic sequence. In fact you even mention that there were people on her side one minute before turning around and saying she did it herself the next.

---

The dialog within the Anyder cutscenes implies her followers were unaware of her intent to sunder more than Zodiark. The last to speak to her acts like it's Venat who will be departing, not them. I find it difficult to believe she'd amass any following with the understanding that the goal was to destroy their civilization. It made sense when there was the possibility the sundering was accidental, but not once they made it intentional.

Edit: To clarify, I believe she gathered followers based on halting sacrifices to Zodiark, but evidence suggests she went rogue on sundering all of Etheirys.

Quote:

---

required a lot of lives to be lost and a war before the head of the resistance realized that "villain has a point" in how the IVth treated people, etc.

---

which i still dont quite get. all we've seen is the ivth employing human experiments and primal tempering when the bozjans started to push back. it could be because they let non garleans rise through the ranks but that seems a bit hollow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rulakir

The dialog within the Anyder cutscenes implies her followers were unaware of her intent to sunder more than Zodiark.

---

I just re-watched the two Anamnesis Anyder recordings and while the second of the two does seem to hint at Venat's followers being unaware of the consequences of the sundering the first seems to imply that they did know the truth. The diplomatic ancient says that though Zodiark has managed to give the ancients a reprieve he has done nothing to stop the root cause of the issue. Looking back with our knowledge of Meteion and the Endbringer that implies to me that Venat's followers are well aware of the true nature of the final days. Afterwards Venat then asks those assembled if they are willing to do what is necessary to find a proper solution. While it does not directly say they know the effects of the sundering, if the previous line does show they know of the song of oblivion then it would not be difficult to believe that Venat told them of her plan to defeat Meteion, us. If she did then they would have to know of the sundering in its entirety to understand Venat's permanent solution.

We also don't know exactly how much the sundered ancients actually remembered of their world after the sundering. All we know is that the knowledge of the unsundered world was lost to history. If the plan was for them to remember then the diplomatic ancient in the second recording could have wanted there to be a shard of Venat in each world shard to combat the sundered convocation.

There is also the fact that in our final conversation with her in Elpis, Venat mentions forming a non-convocation aligned group to help in the fight against Meteion. If this is the same group that summoned Hydaelyn then it is easy to see another reason that they would have known of the full effects of the sundering.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rulakir

Well, Emet says: "The inhabitants of these fourteen fragments were feeble, frail, and foolish. Oblivious to their imperfection, ignorant of their past. Malformed creatures thrashing blindly about. Pitiful. Disturbing. Depressing."

It doesn't sound like the state of the sundered at that time was such that the unsundered thought they could work with them. Plus, I'm sure they were still in shock at what happened.

---

I'm pretty sure this was also what Hermes thought of the Ancients. Oblivious to their imperfection etc.

Hermes decided to judge all the Ancients based on his own arbitrary standards, and Emet-Selch later decided to judge all the Sundered (including his own comrades like the Sundered Ascians and Lahabrea) by his own arbitrary standards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

Accepting the transience of all things is a very hard thing to do, but very important for finding true happiness (because happiness doesn't last forever, and it takes effort to achieve).

---

As we see in Elpis, the Ancients were more than happy to accept the transience of their own lives and return to the star once they felt they had lived a fulfilling life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YianKutku

Hermes decided to judge all the Ancients based on his own arbitrary standards, and Emet-Selch later decided to judge all the Sundered (including his own comrades like the Sundered Ascians and Lahabrea) by his own arbitrary standards.

---

And then Venat decided to judge all the Ancients according to her own arbitrary standard as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veloran

And then Venat decided to judge all the Ancients according to her own arbitrary standard as well.

---

So much grey in the Ancients to where it feels like everybody and nobody is the villain at the same time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

So much grey in the Ancients to where it feels like everybody and nobody is the villain at the same time.

---

Almost like that was the intention or something, and that declaring one of them to be unambiguously The Bad Guy is throwing away the entire driving point of that side of the story.

(...except maybe Hesperos. He might be the bad guy of an entirely different story, jury's still out, but generally becoming Literal Dracula makes things look bad for you.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kordarion

And on the topic of the final days, could the ancients have actually beaten Meteion? The only reason we were able to get to the point we could fight the Endsinger was because of our ability to interact with Dynamis, Thancred's sacrifice made Ultima Thule both a physical place and have a breathable atmosphere, the sacrifices of the other scions in turn were able to manipulate the surrounding Dynamis to give us a path forward. The ancients aren't able to do any of that, by their own admission they are unable to interact with Dynamis and therefore would have faced far more problems than we did in trying to reach Meteion. Then we have to consider the Endsinger's Ultimate Fate ability, where she mentions the use of dynamis in relation to our first LB3 and in the second instance of it where we only survived because of the scions hope filled prayers. Prayers that were probably more dynamis based than aether.

---

Who is to say they could not have come up with a way if Venat had given them time and the full information needed to prepare. As it was she left them in the dark. Zodiark was a hail mary pass made in the last hour because they had run out of options and didn't know what was going on. After Elpis she knew the Final Days were coming, knew what the cause was, knew an aethershield would stave it off, and knew they might need dynamis to combat it. She shared none of that during the valuable time they had to prepare before Meteion's attack, and just left her people to suffer.

If she had shared, they might have had time to put a shield up before the attack even started. That on its own would have prevented the destruction of the planet and the first two sacrifices, but more importantly it would have given them time to research dynamis and how to combat it. They could have made constructs, or called for volunteers to weaken their aether so as to take the fight to Meteion. A Meteion that was much weaker than the one we faced.

Still, they would have had a choice, and not have had someone choose for them. What Venat did was no better than the Ascians deciding the Sundered were only fit for sacrifice, or Meteion and Hermes deciding we all need to die because sad,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kordarion

I just re-watched the two Anamnesis Anyder recordings and while the second of the two does seem to hint at Venat's followers being unaware of the consequences of the sundering the first seems to imply that they did know the truth. The diplomatic ancient says that though Zodiark has managed to give the ancients a reprieve he has done nothing to stop the root cause of the issue.

---

I'm not convinced that means she told them the truth. To me it reads like they knew the problem had been solved temporarily, but they didn't know what caused it to begin with so they were worried about it coming back to bite them again in the future.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nayukhuut

Who is to say they could not have come up with a way if Venat had given them time and the full information needed to prepare.

---

We are unfortunately hampered by not knowing what Venat did in the unknown amount of time between Elpis and the final days. She could have tried to convince more people to stand against the final days but was shrugged of as a man woman. I know if I was an ancient and someone like Venat, who was already shown to act contrary to polite society by not dying when stepping down as Venat, came and told me that the end of the world was imminent and that it was caused by a bird woman at the edge of the universe using a form of energy next to no-one knew of and that we needed to sacrifice ourselves to summon a god capable of saving the planet I would call her crazy and walk off. And even if they did believe her and pre-emptively reinforced the aetheric currents we can't say for certain that they wouldn't just say jobs done we've saved our world back to our normal lives.

The only person who can make those constructs is Hermes, the man who let Meteion go free.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nayukhuut

I'm not convinced that means she told them the truth.

---

I'm not convinced she didn't tell them. They knew the convocation was wrong and the final days weren't averted, we know that they knew that something else needed to be done and then of course there was the other part of my statement where I mentioned that Venat tells us she is going to gather a group of individuals to deal with the final days. It's not that difficult to see how those two groups are probably one in the same.

The Ancients have the Echo... she could have literally shown them the truth. As for Hermes, well, he was the only one that had made someone like Meteion *so far*. Given a bunch of motivated and intelligent people, who knows what they could have come up with.

And yeh, Venat put a team together, but that doesn't mean she told them the truth. They might have known it was coming, might have been fighting against the third sacrifice, and still not have known the source. And even if she DID tell them, she certainly didn't tell the greater people or their leaders. She left them to come up with solution blindly while she watched the world burn and held on to information that could have helped.

Another thing my sister and I were talking about earlier... Venat's plan not only sacrificed her people without their permission, but it also doomed a good number of her Sundered worlds to death. She knew we were multi times rejoined when she destroyed her world, and she watched as many of the Shards she created (full of life by that point) were sacrificed to get us to the point where she met us. People might argue that she tried to save them, but she knew that we were so many times rejoined. Saving those Shards would have changed history. So if she DIDN'T just watch them burn, why was it okay to try and change history then, but not before you consigned your entire people to forced oblivion the first time?

No, I can't excuse or support Venat's actions. She divided the world and its people against their knowledge and their will. If someone started trying that in the game NOW while telling us that it's for the best because we don't meet up to their standards of what needs to be done/thought and that this is all a plan for the future, we would sure as heck try to stop em... And we would be right to do so. The fact that she's take up that whole mother position with us and constantly calling us her children makes it even worse. As someone who vehemently disavows what she did, constantly hearing "my children" drove me nuts. She destroyed the world, and then interjected herself as a deity figure after getting annoyed at her people for leaning on a deity figure...

I remember during the last bit when she mentioned she was the last of her kind, and all I could think of is that she literally did that to herself, and she gets no sympathy from me. All my sympathy goes to the people who never had a choice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nayukhuut

The Ancients have the Echo... she could have literally shown them the truth.

---

The Echo powers that the Ancients/Ascians have shown seem to limited to possession, teleportation without an aetheryte, and combining forms. Have they or the Ancients ever been shown to have powers of looking into the memories of another? if they had that power, I feel like it would've come up much earlier in Elpis when Emet-Selch initially did not believe our story. We have a soul so he could very easily have called forth that power to call us on our bluff if he had the capability.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nayukhuut

As for Hermes, well, he was the only one that had made someone like Meteion *so far*. Given a bunch of motivated and intelligent people, who knows what they could have come up with.

---

There's a lot of assumption involved there. We already know that Fandaniel's understanding was required to allow Zodiark to pause the Final Days. To me it feels like it's too much to base your entire idea on why someone is bad because they didn't get help from a theoretical other person or group of people that we have no idea if they exist. There's also the fact that Emet-Selch also knows everything that's going on and our story and he allows us and Venat to escape Kairos and then says that the Ancients' plan would not have taken them this far at Ultima Thule.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nayukhuut

No, I can't excuse or support Venat's actions. She divided the world and its people against their knowledge and their will. If someone started trying that in the game NOW while telling us that it's for the best because we don't meet up to their standards of what needs to be done/thought and that this is all a plan for the future, we would sure as heck try to stop em... And we would be right to do so. The fact that she's take up that whole mother position with us and constantly calling us her children makes it even worse. As someone who vehemently disavows what she did, constantly hearing "my children" drove me nuts. She destroyed the world, and then interjected herself as a deity figure after getting annoyed at her people for leaning on a deity figure...

---

Regarding Venat's actions, she saw them as necessary to stop the Final Days entirely AND necessary to stop the sacrifice of souls that were innocent to the sins of the past to be used to recreate the world of the dead. The summoners of Zodiark were tempered and aetherically unbalanced to the point where they couldn't even spend much time in the light of the First without discomfort. A revived Amaurot would be led by those whose wills are being tugged by a living god and 3/4 of the citizens would be those revived by said god. It would be naive to believe that their society would be the same after that.

Venat's plan may be contentious but as I had said, Emet-Selch himself agreed with it after we summoned him for the last time, and Elidibus as well, since he's the one who sent us to that specific point of time on purpose in order to save our world. By the end of the game, there are no defenders left for the original plan.

Additionally, Hydaelyn doesn't set herself up as a goddess, most people in the world don't even know she as an entity even exists. Outside of independent Echo users and organizations of Echo users like the Path of Twelve (later Scions of the Seventh Dawn) and the Students of Baldesion, that knowledge is limited to some Sharlayans as well as the leaders of Eorzea who themselves were notified by the Path of Twelve, which was a secret organization. Throughout the game, it's shown that the main religion in Eorzea is the Twelve and there's no talk at all about Hydaelyn (other than the name of the planet) outside the Walking Sands/Rising Stones. Individual normal people either pray to individual gods of the Twelve, kami, or their own local deities or spirits.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

The Echo powers that the Ancients/Ascians have shown seem to limited to possession, teleportation without an aetheryte, and combining forms. Have they or the Ancients ever been shown to have powers of looking into the memories of another? if they had that power, I feel like it would've come up much earlier in Elpis when Emet-Selch initially did not believe our story. We have a soul so he could very easily have called forth that power to call us on our bluff if he had the capability.

---

Emet-Selch, while in Elpis, literally mentions the Convocation has a way to tell if a person is lying. Venat also brings us to the floating island where Hermes launched the Meteia and explains that the Echo can be used on a person's memories or the ambient aether where an event occurred.

What you have to keep in mind is that it's not that Emet-Selch doesn't believe us, it's that he doesn't want to believe us. I imagine he would react similarly if Venat came to him with the events that occurred during his mind wipe, which would include an extremely through investigation--even if only to clear the name of a respected Convocation member--just like he denies what we told him...and then goes off to immediately investigate if there's truth to what we're talking about.

Even if Venat did tell the ancients about meteion and the song of oblivion, it seems likely thier plan would not have changed. Hide behind the aether bubble of Zodiark and be protected. But now there's the added wrench of Hermes probably wanting to sabotage the whole thing.

I'm having a hard time understanding why people think Venat telling the Convocation about Meteion and Hermes was a good idea, especially when Hermes now sits on the Convocation as Fandaniel. Hermes already showed his true intentions. And I doubt few would believe Venat's story. Emet-Selch didn't believe it even after he saw everything.

Hermes would actively work against her if she told him everything and would be smart enough to manipulate the Convocation against her. Not saying what she ultimately did was the perfect solution. Far from it. I'm just saying telling everyone would have been infinitely worse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lium

I'm having a hard time understanding why people think Venat telling the Convocation about Meteion and Hermes was a good idea, especially when Hermes now sits on the Convocation as Fandaniel. Hermes already showed his true intentions. And I doubt few would believe Venat's story. Emet-Selch didn't believe it even after he saw everything.

Hermes would actively work against her if she told him everything and would be smart enough to manipulate the Convocation against her. Not saying what she ultimately did was the perfect solution. Far from it. I'm just saying telling everyone would have been infinitely worse.

---

Lets not give Hermes too much credit. He was a... uh smart cookie in some ways, but in the grand scheme of things only one individual, and not even a strong one. One could conceive myriad of ways to leave him out of the testimony towards the Convocation, and even restrain / eliminate him when he outlived his usefulness.

The whole thing about the Convocation not believing Venat is probably moot. The Echo is something established to exist, Emet stated that the Convocation has the ability to detect lies and Venat was (for better or worse) a respected / famous / infamous ex-member of the Convocation. An odball she may have been, but that apparently just comes with the seat of Azem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lersayil

Lets not give Hermes too much credit. He was a... uh smart cookie in some ways, but in the grand scheme of things only one individual, and not even a strong one. One could conceive myriad of ways to leave him out of the testimony towards the Convocation, and even restrain / eliminate him when he outlived his usefulness.

The whole thing about the Convocation not believing Venat is probably moot. The Echo is something established to exist, Emet stated that the Convocation has the ability to detect lies and Venat was (for better or worse) a respected / famous / infamous ex-member of the Convocation. An oddball she may have been, but that apparently just comes with the seat of Azem.

---

The echo can be used to peer at memories etched upon the aether of the soul, but that only gets a look at whatever that person is thinking about.
The echo can also be used to look at memories etched upon the aether of the land, but that only gets you a look at whatever happened at that location.

Both have their drawbacks, you don't get to look at whatever you fancy in either case. I suppose there is also the possibility that beings so well versed in aether might be able to create false etchings upon both, forged memories essentially.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jandor

The echo can be used to peer at memories etched upon the aether of the soul, but that only gets a look at whatever that person is thinking about.

---

The Echo is not necessarily always viewing whatever someone happens to be thinking about. For instance when Fordola Echoes WoL's past she suddenly sees seemingly all of their adventures, and there are times WoL Echoes certain events that are unrelated to either a person or a location. Considering the Ancient's increased control of the Echo, it wouldn't be surprising if they could sift through memories at will.

Moreover, Emet does say that they can outright tell whether or not someone is lying. So while the Echo itself could serve to prove the point, it's also an aside.