SE, the concept of "Limited Jobs" is a really bad idea, turn back now

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Originally Posted by Kalise

There are numerous ways to implement BLU into XIV while keeping its identity intact, which have been proposed by numerous people across numerous threads.

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You mean like this thread? If anything, the fact that 1) there are so many ways that it can be implemented, 2) everyone seems to have their own idea of how Blue Mage should work in XIV and 3) most of those ideas (including the one that I linked) won't work in this level of the game show how little we--the players--know of the game.

However, in making a Blue Mage concept back during Heavensward and then seeing the job in the game now, the only real takeaway seems to be that those who clamored for the job like it was in XI honestly got what they wished for: a job where you could go out and learn spells just like they could in XI, which resulted in a job appearing to be just as impractical as any other concept pulled right out of one game and slapped into another seemingly without any realistic adjustments that would make it suitable for all aspects of the game. Such adjustments would include an alternate resource system (a "job gauge"), changing or removing of all spells that work around percentage of health or have status effects other than stun or sleep that boss-type enemies would be immune to, and creating a somewhat-forced rotation that would mean removing the need to hunt specific mobs for spells and forcing the learning of spells into level growth and questlines. Yes, a "gating" system could be done where a Blue Mage couldn't enter certain dungeons, raids or trials because they don't have a specific spell or spell set except 1) this system screws over players with worse luck, 2) devs would have to painstakingly set those requirements for each and every single bit of instanced content and 3) players would of course whine and complain about specific requirement settings; all of this leads to far too much micromanagement work required of devs that could be busy doing a multitude of other things. In short, making Blue Mage a regular job requires eliminating everything from Blue Mage that regular jobs neither have nor do.

That being said, I'm still not convinced we have enough information on Limited Jobs to really know if they're a bad thing or not. All we have is Blue Mage, one of the most highly demanded jobs for years left prone to some really bad explanations from devs as to why it is what it is in XIV. There is potential for it as a way of offering more appeal for open-world content, and maybe Blue Mage would be more popular if it didn't require going into dungeons or trials and truly was a solo gameplay experience. Either way, I'd still withhold my judgment on Limited Jobs until another one comes out and HOPEFULLY it will have a far better excuse stated as to why such a job is declared Limited.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

Such adjustments would include an alternate resource system (a "job gauge")

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Which is easily done.

Just like it has been done with literally every other job in the game that gets a job gauge (Usually after level 50, if not sooner)

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

changing or removing of all spells that work around percentage of health or have status effects other than stun or sleep that boss-type enemies would be immune to

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Which again, wouldn't be much of a problem to do.

Bonus points: You can also tie these skills interactions to the shiny new job gauge you create!

For example, make job gauge be about putting "Elemental Status" on enemies. So instead of skills like The Dragon's Voice and Drill Cannons relying on status effects like Deep Freeze and Petrify (Which don't work on bosses and are on DR for trash) you can simply use your job gauge to aspect your enemies to Ice or Stone respectively.

The end result is 1) You've created the job gauge that you needed to. 2) You dealt with these skills that rely on CC effects to function. 3) You've created the "Elements Matter" effect that many XI BLU fans liked.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

creating a somewhat-forced rotation that would mean removing the need to hunt specific mobs for spells and forcing the learning of spells into level growth and questlines.

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Creating a forced rotation...

You mean like already exists? (Only currently, half of the skills you need from it are from the Primals :rolleyes:)

With a lot of other useful skills being outright given to you through job quests and Whalaqee Totems?

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

Yes, a "gating" system could be done where a Blue Mage couldn't enter certain dungeons, raids or trials because they don't have a specific spell or spell set except 1) this system screws over players with worse luck

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Unless you made the "Gating" skills not be luck dependent. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

2) devs would have to painstakingly set those requirements for each and every single bit of instanced content

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It honestly wouldn't be that bad. There are in fact some rather easy ways in order to circumvent this.

For example in a "Forced Skill Setup" situation for duties... Level lock the ability slots and then ability type lock each of the ability slots (I.e. Skill 1 is filler nuke, skill 2 is debuff a la Off-Guard, skill 3 is combo set up skill a la Ram's Voice, skill 4 is combo finisher skill a la Dragon's Voice)

Then you simply design around max level content (As well as using the leveling systems from other jobs to determine what levels new skills should be available) and then the game will auto-sync your kit down where appropriate.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

3) players would of course whine and complain about specific requirement settings

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...Unless you don't put the "Requirements" behind RNG and instead make them easy to get?

Then put in a failsafe so that during sync'd and level appropriate duties that someone can't equip a stupid skillset that is lacking any reasonable skills?

Details of such a system have been discussed in a prior thread

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

In short, making Blue Mage a regular job requires eliminating everything from Blue Mage that regular jobs neither have nor do.

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No, in short it is "I cannot think about how to design a Blue Mage that works as a regular job, therefore, it can not be done"

The fact that current BLU is actually relatively decently balanced as it currently is at level 50 with its full set of skills, is testament to how it is on the right tracks of being a normal job.

With skills that are part of the core rotation being: Requested by the Job Quests (Glower), given to you via Whalaqee Totem (Off-Guard) or easy to obtain (Bristle and Peculiar Light)

With only Song of Torment and the 3 Primal skills you need (Eruption, Shock Strike and Glass Dance) being RNG gated behind non-soloable content (Though, it's not as if these would be impossible to put elsewhere within easier reach of BLU's just like they added all those new enemies to specifically teach BLU's various skills like 1000 Needles and Peculiar Light. For example, the final boss in Masked Carnivale uses all the Primal skills... Make them 100% learn chance from him and you've got yourself those 3 skills 100% unlocked by people who do the level 50 job quest)

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

You mean like this thread? If anything, the fact that 1) there are so many ways that it can be implemented, 2) everyone seems to have their own idea of how Blue Mage should work in XIV and 3) most of those ideas (including the one that I linked) won't work in this level of the game show how little we--the players--know of the game.

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To be fair I imagine Kalise was specifically referencing ideas made after the introduction of Blue Mage into the game (which have a higher detail of the FFXIV's mindset since most are based off the recent introduction, making them more FFXIV compatible). So of course your linked idea is quite different than everything suggested recently. Most of the ones post-limited blue agree on core principles even if they go off into their own nuances (like I don't see many that destroy the carnival).

Also I feel like every issue you made could be solved. For example: "It's too random I can't get into dungeons easily". . How about make it more reliable then? Black Mage in some FF games have a huge compendium of spells, that doesn't make FFXIV's black mage not black mage. Blue Mage has a huge list of spells in games that give other jobs huge lists of spells, having a big list isn't "blue mage". Also setting your skills up like a loadout is only blue mage in FFXI, it's only a recent quirk of blue mage and is not "blue mage" at it's core.

The only thing at blue mage's core is learning monster skills. Although many ideas leave blue mage with big lists of abilities still, with some nuance on how that is balanced in DF (some have matching types, others forgo "building a set" in DF and do other things with abilities in limited content).

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Originally Posted by Kalise

With only Song of Torment and the 3 Primal skills you need (Eruption, Shock Strike and Glass Dance) being RNG gated behind non-soloable content (Though, it's not as if these would be impossible to put elsewhere within easier reach of BLU's just like they added all those new enemies to specifically teach BLU's various skills like 1000 Needles and Peculiar Light. For example, the final boss in Masked Carnivale uses all the Primal skills... Make them 100% learn chance from him and you've got yourself those 3 skills 100% unlocked by people who do the level 50 job quest)

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You know I thought they were going to do this with azulmagia. The cutscene where they introduce him he uses a bunch of primal skills, so I thought it was going to be the case of, you fight azulmagia in a tough fight to get all the primall skills off of him (like how in FFV you could learn a bunch of BLU magic off of azulmagia), or you could choose to do the primals for an easier time learning them. But then in the actual fight he doesn't do any of them :/ .

You dont really get what i am trying to say here.




No its not impossible for blue mage to be in content while breaking most of the rules of FFXIV, or having different skills in different settings, Its that The developers of FFXIV do not want to mix in these ideas, or complex implementations into their streamlined FFXIV design process for jobs.


They fundamentally want all jobs to be very similar in skill aquisition and availability.
They dont want to lock players out based on what skills they have available.
they dont want hybrids in the overall battle system.
They dont want to have different rule sets for abilities in duty finder vs outside of duty finder


How do i know this? because much of these things existed before in FFXIV, and they have gone out of their way to strip them from FFXIV, and strealine the overall design processes. They specifically gutted these things from the game already, or chose not to add/develop around these limitations.


They used to have cross job abilities, and people who leveled other jobs had better dps/tank/healing abilities, instead of adding a check, they made the role system.


They used to have cross job skills, which gave more hybrid abilities, they took them away.


The cross jobs were not meant to be used in highlevel content, mostly used for open world, small groups, fun, etc. They still removed them from the game.


And even that very small bit of extra balancing some combos caused was seen as too much, and not worth maintaining.






Short version, its not that its impossible to make blue mage fit, its that the paradigm of what they want jobs to be for 4=8 man content does not fit what blue mage is. They dont want to do any of the things you suggested. If they decide blue mage must fit into regular parties, they will make it as streamlined and uniform as every other job, because thats what they expect from anything going into regular content.



Also note, blue mage cannot be what it is outside of groups and something else in groups, they are not going to maintain two different versions of blue mage, because they probably dont want to. Not because its impossible, but because they dont feel its a worthwhile endeavor.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

To be fair I imagine Kalise was specifically referencing ideas made after the introduction of Blue Mage into the game (which have a higher detail of the FFXIV's mindset since most are based off the recent introduction, making them more FFXIV compatible). So of course your linked idea is quite different than everything suggested recently. Most of the ones post-limited blue agree on core principles even if they go off into their own nuances (like I don't see many that destroy the carnival).

Also I feel like every issue you made could be solved. For example: "It's too random I can't get into dungeons easily". . How about make it more reliable then? Black Mage in some FF games have a huge compendium of spells, that doesn't make FFXIV's black mage not black mage. Blue Mage has a huge list of spells in games that give other jobs huge lists of spells, having a big list isn't "blue mage". Also setting your skills up like a loadout is only blue mage in FFXI, it's only a recent quirk of blue mage and is not "blue mage" at it's core.

The only thing at blue mage's core is learning monster skills. Although many ideas leave blue mage with big lists of abilities still, with some nuance on how that is balanced in DF (some have matching types, others forgo "building a set" in DF and do other things with abilities in limited content).

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as i said above, its not that its impossible to somehow get blue mage in, its rather that the type of things most people suggest, are either stripping blue mage of its identity/power or that they violate the general design philosophies that SE has decided must be in a regular job.



Simplified grouping (all skills come from leveling, or job quests, at the appropriate levels, no skill checks, or lockouts)
Clear Role (every one is either tank/dps/healer and is noticeably defecient in every other role)
Follows basic action rules(CC on limited time frames {usuually 30 secs} limited unique effects per job etc)
No weird or unbalanced skills for groups (self destruct/white wind/peculiar light/needles/% health skills, gambling skills)


to be honest its probably mostly the first two that made them make it into a limited job, mostly the first one. Once they decided that, their was no reason to put most of the other limitations based on grouping paradigms on the class.

You know, I will be honest; while I'm sad that BLU is a limited job, I'm (mostly) upset that the job had to be capped at 50 on release. It couldn't be 70 with all jobs like every other job in the game. Adding spells for 60, 70, 80, I can manage with those later. But the fact that almost all primals shoot for a 1 shot mechanic to instantly kill a BLU at 50 is what pisses me off. If the job was at 70 to begin with, partying with other people or soloing the instances wouldn't have been so bad. I would've rather enjoyed it. Instead, I had nothing but frustration and being pissed off at BLU for spells being difficult to get (in an instance that I can't solo) and a less than 0.00000000000000000000000001% drop rate for that. It's not a solo job. It's not a party job. It's just limited. Limited to everything in general. Release the cap to 80 and let the players figure things out (when shadowbringers arrives), and then make adjustments as needed. Not at 50 where everything kills you (even with maxed out gear at current ilvl and max ilvl food).

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Originally Posted by Elkanah

You know, I will be honest; while I'm sad that BLU is a limited job, I'm (mostly) upset that the job had to be capped at 50 on release. It couldn't be 70 with all jobs like every other job in the game. Adding spells for 60, 70, 80, I can manage with those later. But the fact that almost all primals shoot for a 1 shot mechanic to instantly kill a BLU at 50 is what pisses me off. If the job was at 70 to begin with, partying with other people or soloing the instances wouldn't have been so bad. I would've rather enjoyed it. Instead, I had nothing but frustration and being pissed off at BLU for spells being difficult to get (in an instance that I can't solo) and a less than 0.00000000000000000000000001% drop rate for that. It's not a solo job. It's not a party job. It's just limited. Limited to everything in general. Release the cap to 80 and let the players figure things out (when shadowbringers arrives), and then make adjustments as needed. Not at 50 where everything kills you (even with maxed out gear at current ilvl and max ilvl food).

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that content and one shots, are basically how those fights are meant to be played, raising it to max level would basically endanger a lot of content based on the balance of blues abilities.


i think going for only 10 levels difference would be acceptable.


i also think fighting it legit, at cap should give a much higher chance of learning the skill. say 10-15% or they could give you totems or something if you beat it level synced or something similar.

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Originally Posted by Physic

that content and one shots, are basically how those fights are meant to be played, raising it to max level would basically endanger a lot of content based on the balance of blues abilities.


i think going for only 10 levels difference would be acceptable.


i also think fighting it legit, at cap should give a much higher chance of learning the skill. say 10-15% or they could give you totems or something if you beat it level synced or something similar.

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Fighting it AT 50 makes sense if it made it possible to obtain the spells at an increased rate. But who does capped content anymore? Why? NOTHING in this game provides any benefits to anyone in any content. The content is dead water. Did it have to be extremes? Couldn't have also just been story versions under the level 50 cap? That would've also made more sense to learn. LMAO. ENDANGER? Are you kidding me? What content is endangering? What content is endangering to ANY job at 70 that can't be killed uncapped for no reason? Ponies were boosted and everyone still does them uncapped. Whistles for birds were increased and all those dungeons are uncapped and farmed. The rate may not be the absolute best in terms of rngesus, but it's hardly endangering to anyone, let alone blu's being the need to be the red headed step child we want to abandon and throw away in the street. Going 10 levels above is no different than being at 50. It might as well be considered a waste of time.

If the job was uncapped at 70, and adjustments were made over the months or time, then sure. I can get that. Again, I can even worry about spells 50-70 (now 80 at ShB) at a later time. The job has absolutely no reason to be capped for any reason, since it's a "solo" job that can access duty finder unsynced. I didn't consider getting the lower level spells that were worth nothing till I was at 50 already. I went back and soloed the level 16-18 dungeons to get those. How is that any different than being uncapped at 70? It doesn't whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Physic

that content and one shots, are basically how those fights are meant to be played, raising it to max level would basically endanger a lot of content based on the balance of blues abilities.


i think going for only 10 levels difference would be acceptable.


i also think fighting it legit, at cap should give a much higher chance of learning the skill. say 10-15% or they could give you totems or something if you beat it level synced or something similar.

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In addition to the poster above, let's not forget this content is balanced around having two tanks and two healers on synced.
Because, I swear, we tried to do Shiva Ex with a full BLU party, and we lasted about 8 minutes, before Shiva just started cleaving everyone to hell and back.

I can assure you Mighty Guard and White Wind will never be replacements to dedicated tanks and healers. Now, finding 4 people not needing the spell themselves willing to help kill Shiva 50+ times on synced would be nigh impossible. Yeah, maybe we could do away with one healer and have the BLU use White Wind when needed, but we'd still need two tanks and one healer for ressurects, at very least.

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Originally Posted by Physic

No its not impossible for blue mage to be in content while breaking most of the rules of FFXIV

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Wut?

You don't have to "Break most of the rules of FFXIV" to make Blue Mage work.

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Originally Posted by Physic

Its that The developers of FFXIV do not want to mix in these ideas, or complex implementations into their streamlined FFXIV design process for jobs.

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Yes, because they wanted low effort implementation. Because they wanted Limited Jobs. Because they're afraid that anything different is somehow wrong and will be disliked by players.

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Originally Posted by Physic

They fundamentally want all jobs to be very similar in skill aquisition and availability.

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And there have been numerous suggestions on how Blue Mage can have similar skill acquisition and availability to other jobs. With the extra stuff being fluff just like how base ARR classes have their own unique Hunting Logs, which aren't mandatory and haven't been replicated on any new jobs since.

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Originally Posted by Physic

They dont want to lock players out based on what skills they have available.

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Then simply don't design mandatory skills and stick them behind RNG walls

As I've mentioned, like half of BLU's current "Kit" is easy to get or just given to you directly by Whalaqee Totems.

There's no reason why the other half had to be designed as skills with low learn chances from dungeons/trials.

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Originally Posted by Physic

they dont want hybrids in the overall battle system.

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Then don't make BLU a hybrid. Make it a DPS like its listed as. Like it plays as (Outside some lulzy "All BLU" parties... But that doesn't make them Tanks/Healers any more than when people did all WAR runs makes WAR a Tank/Healer/DPS hybrid job...)

I'm honestly unsure which iteration of BLU that people keep referring to as a "Hybrid" since, from my memory, the notable BLU's from previous games were just basically Black Mages that had some situationally powerful damage spells and debuffs. Oh, with White Wind and Might Guard (Which was simply AoE buffs like Protect/Shell rather than a "Tank Stance") tacked on. I'm remembering stuff like Quistis, Quina, Kimahri, FFV, FFVI...

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Originally Posted by Physic

They dont want to have different rule sets for abilities in duty finder vs outside of duty finder

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They don't really need to either. Most of the issues are insta-kill effects. Which are immuned by some enemies outside of DF as well as inside.

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Originally Posted by Physic

How do i know this? because much of these things existed before in FFXIV, and they have gone out of their way to strip them from FFXIV, and strealine the overall design processes. They specifically gutted these things from the game already, or chose not to add/develop around these limitations.

They used to have cross job abilities, and people who leveled other jobs had better dps/tank/healing abilities, instead of adding a check, they made the role system.

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Cross class skills were an inherently bad design though. Since it meant that in order to play X class effectively, you also needed to level up classes A, B and C.

Which is dumb. Leveling up multiple jobs should be a choice, not mandatory to make the 1 job you want to play functional due to having key skills accessed via doing this.

Many players gave feedback about how they disliked this, which is why they removed it.

It's not at all comparable to a properly designed BLU, since it's possible to make it so that a BLU doesn't have to do anything different to other classes in order to get its mandatory skills. Especially since, all jobs have precedent for needing to complete their job quests (With its peak being during HW where every new skill came via job quest. Whereas in SB, it's merely the capstone level 70 skill locked behind the final job quest)

You can make the additional collecting non-mandatory. Thus being side content just like a Limited Job would be in its entirety, thus taking up exactly the same resources as making said content for a Limited Job would need.

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Originally Posted by Physic

Short version, its not that its impossible to make blue mage fit, its that the paradigm of what they want jobs to be for 4=8 man content does not fit what blue mage is. They dont want to do any of the things you suggested. If they decide blue mage must fit into regular parties, they will make it as streamlined and uniform as every other job, because thats what they expect from anything going into regular content.

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Frankly this is baloney.

There's nothing about BLU that doesn't fit the paradigm of their holy trinity, outside what they explicitly designed to force BLU into this weird "Hybrid" job (At the cost of also disgracing the essence of some iconic Blue Magic spells. Like Might Guard has been a source of applying Protect and Shell (/Barrier and MBarrier) to allies in all Final Fantasy games except XI.)

What next, Red Mage has to be limited because it's (Actually) a Hybrid job in previous iterations of the game? Or could it be that there is a functional way to include a DPS job that has a heal skill (Which is literally all that BLU has traditionally been outside of XI)

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Originally Posted by Physic

Simplified grouping (all skills come from leveling, or job quests, at the appropriate levels, no skill checks, or lockouts)

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Which, as noted, is not impossible to design for BLU at all.

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Originally Posted by Physic

Clear Role (every one is either tank/dps/healer and is noticeably defecient in every other role)

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Again, outside what they've specifically and arbitrarily decided to do with BLU (Mostly because they were being designed as a "Solo Job" and for "BLU only parties" so they made Might Guard into some BS Tank Stance), BLU is easy to fit into a clear role.

Make it supportive DPS just like how SMN currently exists. How RDM currently exists. How BRD currently exists. How DNC is very likely to exist.

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Originally Posted by Physic

Follows basic action rules(CC on limited time frames {usuually 30 secs} limited unique effects per job etc)

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Again, not particularly difficult to apply to BLU. Outside of what they specifically designed for its current state.

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Originally Posted by Physic

No weird or unbalanced skills for groups (self destruct/white wind/peculiar light/needles/% health skills, gambling skills)

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Again, a plethora of ways to mitigate these effects. Such as aforementioned "Duty Set" of skills. Or balancing them in a way that makes them not broken (White Wind having a CD for example, Peculiar Light being brought down to only 10% vulnerability like Contagion)

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Originally Posted by Physic

Once they decided that

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This is the crux of the matter right here.

All of the problems with BLU, have been intentionally designed.

These problems aren't inherent in BLU as a job. Not all possible iterations of BLU have core rotational skills locked behind 0.1% learn rate EX Trial bosses. Not all possible iterations of BLU have a BS Tank Stance made out of what has traditionally been an AoE team buff (Akin to the likes of Troubadour on BRD). Not all possible iteration of BLU have White Wind healing for as much as it does with no CD.

Everything that is being seen as a barrier behind BLU being a normal job, was decided to be a thing by the devs.

It's literally comparable to slashing the tyres on your car and then calling your boss up and saying that you can't make it into work because someone slashed your tyres.

Like, sure, in that example, you're stuck because your car is unusable because the tyres are slashed. But if you didn't slash them in the first place you wouldn't have that problem.

@kalise


you are missing my main point.



Its not that its impossible, its that they dont want those type of things in ffxiv duty finder content.



they dont want to build in a system that checks peoples skills and rejects them if they dont have them. They could have done that before, and they instead chose to build the skills they wanted players to have into the role system, which was, at the time way more work, and a way more radical change.



They want a streamlined simplified play structure for duty finder. Every role has to be predicatable and easy to queue for. Level, and ILevel is the only thing they want players to have to worry about and manage for duty finder content.



Like i said, its not that its impossible, they dont want to do it. Its against their design plan for duty finder and jobs. Its like you asking apple to make a square edged iphone. They arent going to do it simply because they dont feel rounded edges are how iphones are supposed to be.


They will only put blue mage in duty finder if they streamline skill aquisition such that it is based on level and job quests. Which goes against the most signature aspect of blue mage. You may think its not a big deal and they should just build around it, but they think it pollutes the purpose and design of duty finder.


also you are extremely downplaying how much having weird situational/luckbased/status skills are a part of the identity of blue mage.

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Originally Posted by Physic

also you are extremely downplaying how much having weird situational/luckbased/status skills are a part of the identity of blue mage.

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Do you just not read the replies we give you on other thread, BLU has the most flexible identity of any job, lets put your criteria to the test.

FFV- During the main game revolved around doing damage with aero, and heavy damage with 1k needles in the areas it was relevant. End Game it revolved around buffing the party and supporting them with transfusion. Missle and Doom and roulette existed on BLU, they weren't part of its identity.

FFVI- You mostly just used strago as a BLM due to his high magic stat and because of how broken magic is in that game. Again the rng and situational abilities exist, but they don't define his BLU, if anything aqua breath, tsunami and quasar and grand delta define it more, as well as its Support, with mighty and white wind.

FFVII- Blue magic is essentially better damaging magic materia for most of FFVII, Beta, Trine, Magic Breath, Matra Magic are all just amazing for playing the game with, tonne of damage and enemy skill doesn't change stats. Shadow Flare and Pandora's box are powerful end game skills too. They also have strongsupport with mighty guard.

FFVIII- Limit Break- Nuff Said

FFXI- Powerful Support Skills as well as amazing earth and wind damage.

FFX- Bad, Moving on

FFXI- Hybrid Role of weirdness

Bravely Default- Vampire, Powerful physical attacker, with strong debuffing skills making it a great support damage dealer on a physical team

Bravely Second- Catmancer, Very powerful Physical attacker, who could also debuff, making it just all round a great heavy hitter and support

I could go on, but my point is there. So it seems its most consistent, "identity" as it were is being a support dps by this interpretation? Also useful to note, BLU isn't the only class to have rng and situational skills btw, BLM and WHM have learned plenty of these through the games they're in, like warp, death, tornado, slow, sleep, bezerk, list goes on.

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Originally Posted by Physic

you are missing my main point.

Its not that its impossible, its that they dont want those type of things in ffxiv duty finder content.

they dont want to build in a system that checks peoples skills and rejects them if they dont have them. They could have done that before, and they instead chose to build the skills they wanted players to have into the role system, which was, at the time way more work, and a way more radical change.

They want a streamlined simplified play structure for duty finder. Every role has to be predicatable and easy to queue for. Level, and ILevel is the only thing they want players to have to worry about and manage for duty finder content.

They will only put blue mage in duty finder if they streamline skill aquisition such that it is based on level and job quests. Which goes against the most signature aspect of blue mage. You may think its not a big deal and they should just build around it, but they think it pollutes the purpose and design of duty finder.

also you are extremely downplaying how much having weird situational/luckbased/status skills are a part of the identity of blue mage.

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You're the one missing the point.

They can easily create a BLU friendly system for ensuring that players obtain the relevant skills needed to perform in DF:

They can make Job Quests make you go fight a specific enemy that teaches you a spell. Just like exists currently in the game (The quest where you become a Blue Mage has your character fight a squid and learn Water Cannon)

They can make Job Quests reward you with a Whalaqee Totem which teaches you a spell. This is a lore friendly way to gain a spell as a reward for a quest and is currently used in the game (In addition to being used in VIII where Quistis would learn her Blue Magic via consumables and didn't need to actually fight anything)

They can make Job Quests tell you to go learn a certain spell from particular enemies before letting you pick up the quest. Just like exists currently in the game (Just make these skills easy to learn and they become painless ways to BLU-Gate things)

Then they can create a system that utilizes the fact that BLU can save multiple different sets of abilities to swap between in order to fashion a "Duty Set" which they balance for content, that is at the very least, built around the skills that are given through Job Quests (In whatever form their particular acquisition takes)

This allows them to not have to worry about checking players skills, nor about having to worry about people going out of their way to farm necessary skills, and simply design the core BLU experience in a similar fashion to other jobs.

With the rest of BLU being either fluff that is restricted from actual content (Such as RNG skills, insta-kills, suicide skills etc) and thus relegated to stuff like overworld, unsync'd old content and Masked Carnivale. Or it could be some limited way of customizing the "Duty Set" for flavour and potentially even some min/max capacity based on team composition (Such as using a lower potency Piercing or Slashing skill instead of a Magical one to benefit from Piercing/Slashing debuffs and/or physical damage buffs like Embolden/Brotherhood) - With the limitation being only able to swap similar skills (I.e. Single Target Nuke can only be swapped for other Single Target Nukes)

Also, weird situational/luck based/status skills aren't a major part of the identity of Blue Mage. At least not when actually using them in relevant battles. They're fun for memeing around but if you were actually bringing a Blue Mage to your party to beat hidden bosses or progress through the story, you rarely relied on these skills.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Do you just not read the replies we give you on other thread, BLU has the most flexible identity of any job, lets put your criteria to the test.

FFV- During the main game revolved around doing damage with aero, and heavy damage with 1k needles in the areas it was relevant. End Game it revolved around buffing the party and supporting them with transfusion. Missle and Doom and roulette existed on BLU, they weren't part of its identity.

FFVI- You mostly just used strago as a BLM due to his high magic stat and because of how broken magic is in that game. Again the rng and situational abilities exist, but they don't define his BLU, if anything aqua breath, tsunami and quasar and grand delta define it more, as well as its Support, with mighty and white wind.

FFVII- Blue magic is essentially better damaging magic materia for most of FFVII, Beta, Trine, Magic Breath, Matra Magic are all just amazing for playing the game with, tonne of damage and enemy skill doesn't change stats. Shadow Flare and Pandora's box are powerful end game skills too. They also have strongsupport with mighty guard.

FFVIII- Limit Break- Nuff Said

FFXI- Powerful Support Skills as well as amazing earth and wind damage.

FFX- Bad, Moving on

FFXI- Hybrid Role of weirdness

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you are taking like 4 skills out lists of 20 skills and saying oh, these other skills arent important, you can play without them. if 50-75% of the skills are this way, it probably has something to do with the jobs identity.
situational/random/status skills vs other
ffv 20/30
ffvi 19/24 lore
ffvii 11/24
ffviii 8/16
ff9 19/24

acting like situational/random/status is a small part of blu mage historically is just not accurate. Yes other jobs get some of this, but its generally not a major part thier spell lists.

ff11 has the least random elements, but one of the most situational, via elemental and weapon weaknesses and status weakness, and self magic bursts. Good blu mages had different loadouts for every situation, and access to more status control than anyone else.


yea, they could make blue mage something totally new, but lets not pretend it has not been designed a certain way most of the time. And lets not act like the ffxiv skill list isnt inline with that. I'll also point out most of the skills that arent siituational are elemental, meant to target enemies weaknesses, which ffxiv goes out of thier way to give blu mage, and put it the carnivale.

you can hate limited jobs, but you cant act like blu mage in ffxiv isnt in line with blue magic's main identity, and you cant act like most of that identity is not condusive to ffxiv general hi end game design.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kalise

You're the one missing the point.

They can easily create a BLU friendly system for ensuring that players obtain the relevant skills needed to perform in DF:

They can make Job Quests make you go fight a specific enemy that teaches you a spell. Just like exists currently in the game (The quest where you become a Blue Mage has your character fight a squid and learn Water Cannon)

They can make Job Quests reward you with a Whalaqee Totem which teaches you a spell. This is a lore friendly way to gain a spell as a reward for a quest and is currently used in the game (In addition to being used in VIII where Quistis would learn her Blue Magic via consumables and didn't need to actually fight anything)

They can make Job Quests tell you to go learn a certain spell from particular enemies before letting you pick up the quest. Just like exists currently in the game (Just make these skills easy to learn and they become painless ways to BLU-Gate things)

Then they can create a system that utilizes the fact that BLU can save multiple different sets of abilities to swap between in order to fashion a "Duty Set" which t

Also, weird situational/luck based/status skills aren't a major part of the identity of Blue Mage. At least not when actually using them in relevant battles. They're fun for memeing around but if you were actually bringing a Blue Mage to your party to beat hidden bosses or progress through the story, you rarely relied on these skills.

---

either your skill lists will be tiny, or your job quests will be extremely long. but that not the biggest thing.

the point is ffxiv already faced this issue and have already given thier answer for these problems. I say they will not do these things because they already did not do them in the past,and spent a lot of time and energy making it how it is now.

They have no desire to do it that way.

cross job roles presented all the same problems, and they didnt do anything like you are suggesting, even though players suggested some of the exact same solutions.

They are not willing to do these things for normal jobs/content.


and lastly, they are a major part of blu mage, my post on top of this talks about it, and its usually some of the best abilities for blue mage. Gravity attacks are huge in many ff games, especially later on. Elemental weakness/status weakness is a major part of making many fights easy, and in some ffs doable. Abilities based on numbers are usually some of the most powerful abilities you have as a blu mage. exploiting your hp is key to seeing some of the big numbers.

like i said above, if 50%+ of your skill list falls into that category, its probably a part of your job identity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Physic

either your skill lists will be tiny, or your job quests will be extremely long. but that not the biggest thing.

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Not necessarily.

Literally, you can get up to 3+ skills per job quest (One required to obtain the quest. One from beating an enemy during the quest (Maybe more, either due to fighting more than 1 enemy or maybe an enemy will teach you more than 1 skill like how Chimera/Azulmagia can teach you both Ram's Voice and Dragon's Voice) and one from the reward)

Also, you only need 24 total job skills over levels 1-70. Just like every other job in the game. Take away the typical cap stone job quest skills (50, 60, 70) and that's 21. Take away the HW levels that all jobs get one from the reward that's 17. Take away the one you learn when getting the job. That leaves you with 16 skills to put into the game.

With job quests at level 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 52, 54, 56, 58, 60, 63, 65, 68, 70. You have 19 total job quests to fit in 23 ability gains. Even more in ShB as I'm sure that they'll be trying to keep jobs to 24 skills even at level 80 (So, say they have similar spacing of quests to ShB so that would be 23 job quests for 23 abilities...)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Physic

the point is ffxiv already faced this issue and have already given thier answer for these problems. I say they will not do these things because they already did not do them in the past,and spent a lot of time and energy making it how it is now.

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I can say the EXACTLY the same thing about jobs as a whole. "Oh they've done jobs like this already, they wouldn't possibly add in a 'Limited Job'!"

They can change things. Especially if something is improved by the changes. Like they changed cross-class skills because people hated it because it didn't do anything other than punish people who didn't spend time leveling up classes they didn't care to play.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Physic

They are not willing to do these things for normal jobs/content.

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Just because they haven't how do you know they're not?

Have you sat in on their meetings and heard them going "Well, we're not willing to do anything like this ever!"

Or are you just speculating because of a previous iteration of the job system that sucked and was changed because people disliked it which is in no way similar to... Designing a job more like every other job in the game?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Physic

lastly, they are a major part of blu mage, my post on top of this talks about it, and its usually some of the best abilities for blue mage. Gravity attacks are huge in many ff games, especially later on. Elemental weakness/status weakness is a major part of making many fights easy, and in some ffs doable. Abilities based on numbers are usually some of the most powerful abilities you have as a blu mage. exploiting your hp is key to seeing some of the big numbers.

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They are not a major part of Blue Mage.

Gravity has been Black Magic in a number of games. Elemental weaknesses are exploited by Black Mages and Summoners and not just Blue Mages.

Much of Blue Mage has been just using high damage spells, not unlike a Black Mage or Summoner would. Just with their inherent ability to play with various statistics in order to maximize damage (Such as levels to make things like Goblin Punch more powerful... Or time consuming things like catching Frogs/walking to make Frog Drop/Traveler deal more damage)

Nothing about them has to be the likes of Doom/Roulette/Self Destruct. Many of their skills would work just fine as standard skills in FFXIV, due to the nature of the setting (Just like how Stone, Water and Aero became White Magic instead of Black/Blue Magic. Or about how BLM can use Fire on Fire Sprites and deal damage). In fact, a lot of their skills in some iterations (Such as V, VIII and X) are exactly that, just standard damage skills.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Physic

you can hate limited jobs, but you cant act like blu mage in ffxiv isnt in line with blue magic's main identity, and you cant act like most of that identity is not condusive to ffxiv general hi end game design.

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I can "act" that way because it isn't inline because of the reasons you are giving. As I mentioned before, the presence of these more situational/rng skills don't define BLU, (because other classes have just as situational and rng skills in all of their iterations). BLU in ffxiv is already its own identity that doesn't conform to previous BLU mages as:

-Skills are rng learn chance (only 11 uses this)
-Blu has different leveling conditions to the other jobs
-BLU has its own elemental weakness mechanic (thats always been black mages niche)
-BLU can't be a party member, already a huge departure from other iterations of BLU
-Most of BLU's skills are repeats of each other with different elements (again this was BLMs identity not BLU)

Honestly the only identity that is consistent throughout BLU is it uses monster abilities, at it learns those abilities differently to other classes. Other than that every BLU has been a totally different kettle of fish, so by that arbitrary definition, yes FFXIV is "True to BLU" as it were, but it in no way justifies it being a limited job, and if it were missing the stupid situation skills which are brought up as to why BLU must be limited, it would still be inline with BLU's identity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

I can "act" that way because it isn't inline because of the reasons you are giving. As I mentioned before, the presence of these more situational/rng skills don't define BLU, (because other classes have just as situational and rng skills in all of their iterations). BLU in ffxiv is already its own identity that doesn't conform to previous BLU mages as:

-Skills are rng learn chance (only 11 uses this)
-Blu has different leveling conditions to the other jobs
-BLU has its own elemental weakness mechanic (thats always been black mages niche)
-BLU can't be a party member, already a huge departure from other iterations of BLU
-Most of BLU's skills are repeats of each other with different elements (again this was BLMs identity not BLU)

Honestly the only identity that is consistent throughout BLU is it uses monster abilities, at it learns those abilities differently to other classes. Other than that every BLU has been a totally different kettle of fish, so by that arbitrary definition, yes FFXIV is "True to BLU" as it were, but it in no way justifies it being a limited job, and if it were missing the stupid situation skills which are brought up as to why BLU must be limited, it would still be inline with BLU's identity.

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no most classes dont have as much situational /random skills/status in their skill lists. Only status on mages comes close, and that usually still caps at around 25% of their abilities.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Physic

no most classes dont have as much situational /random skills/status in their skill lists. Only status on mages comes close, and that usually still caps at around 25% of their abilities.

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Gil toss for SAM comes to mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

Gil toss for SAM comes to mind.

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which is what % Of the skills samurai has? in ffv its 1/5 or 20%

You all do know a lot of people don't do hardcore stuff in this game and enjoy it very casually. Also there are a lot where solo content is quite appealing. I for one welcome the blue mage job. Not everything has to be for end game raiders.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by supergiz

You all do know a lot of people don't do hardcore stuff in this game and enjoy it very casually. Also there are a lot where solo content is quite appealing. I for one welcome the blue mage job. Not everything has to be for end game raiders.

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But... Why can't it be both?

What is it about a job that can enter a raid that makes it impossible to enjoy as a casual player?

Why create a job that literally just excludes certain players from being able to enjoy it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kalise

But... Why can't it be both?

What is it about a job that can enter a raid that makes it impossible to enjoy as a casual player?

Why create a job that literally just excludes certain players from being able to enjoy it?

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Every job excludes certain players from being able to enjoy it. Don´t like healers -> 3 Jobs excluded, don´t like tanks -> soon 4 jobs excluded...etc.

Why not both? It was said endless times already. 2 Big Reasons: Developement time/ressources and Design choice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Laphael

Every job excludes certain players from being able to enjoy it. Don´t like healers -> 3 Jobs excluded, don´t like tanks -> soon 4 jobs excluded...etc.

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That's not excluding players from being able to play it.

That's merely not being a playstyle that everyone likes.

Limited Jobs literally exclude anyone who wants to play jobs in Raids, MSQ, Exploratory Missions, Duties, Current expansion open world.

Non-Limited jobs literally don't exclude anyone. Even casual players can do side content with any job. I can go do things like Gold Saucer, Hildibrand, soloing unsync'd old content etc. On my Warrior. Or White Mage. Or Samurai.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Laphael

Why not both? It was said endless times already. 2 Big Reasons: Developement time/ressources and Design choice.

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2 stupid reasons...

Development Time/Resources? It's a cop out.

Like every brings up, specifically designing side content for the "Side activity" Limited Jobs is going to consume increasing amounts of time and resources (Unless the next Limited Job also just does Masked Carnivale... And the next one, and the next one etc)

Even within this side content created specifically for Limited Jobs, these jobs would then have to be balanced for this content, otherwise it would be no fun. Masked Carnivale would be 0 fun if you could just walk in and Tail Screw everything and win in 5 seconds.

So, if you're spending time and resources, creating content and balancing it and these jobs... Why not just make them normal jobs? With then side content being added using the same resources you'd have spent making the specific side content anyway?

Normal job Blue could still get Masked Carnivale stuff to do. Only, after someone finishes it, instead of being done with the job until the next lot of content updates (So far as we know right now, it's more levels in Masked Carnivale and some yet unannounced "Hardcore" content (Which might still just be said Carnivale levels)) they can then use the job to do... A plethora of other things in the game.

Design choice?

Well... That's literally the reason we're here isn't it?

They chose to make BLU a Limited Job. Thus leading to a thread (Among many) that is trying to persuade SE to change their minds about Limited Jobs as a concept.

Since, there is no rhyme or reason as to the "Limited Job" status as a whole. Not when the job in question is going to function... Exactly like literally every other combat job in the game.

Like, I've made my stance known that "Limited Job" status makes sense when gameplay is wholly incompatible with "Normal" jobs. With examples being stuff like a Gambler "Limited Job" where combat puts you into a series of Gold Saucer-esk mini-games like Triple Triad and the mini-game attractions (Punch-a-Cur, Crystal Tower etc) sort of WarioWare style. Or something like a Puppeteer "Limited Job" where entering combat puts you into a "Lords of Verminion" style arena where you then control a bunch of puppets to attack enemies.

This sort of thing makes sense as "Limited" because it literally cannot function alongside "Normal" jobs. It is just a glorified Gold Saucer attraction (Also, this kind of thing could, just be kept as a Gold Saucer attraction. Wherein you go and sign up to a "PotD" style deep dungeon and become a "Limited Job" inside. As opposed to cluttering up the Jobs & Classes screen with "Jobs" that aren't worth having Soul Crystals and gear sets for)

The iteration of BLU is not like this. BLU is merely a normal job, with one quirk surrounding how it accesses its abilities (As intentionally designed to be stupid to get your full "Level 50 Rotation"). It does combat the same as every other job. It gains experience the same as every other job. It uses stats and gear the same as every other job. The one and only thing that is making it get a justification for "Limited Job" is a slightly different way to obtain skills (Which, as mentioned many times prior, does not need to be done in this current, stupid, way and can be done more similarly to other jobs whilst still maintaining the feel and theme of "Blue Mage")

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kalise

2 stupid reasons...

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I get it, you don´t like limited Blu, that´s ok.

But that doesn´t make the reasons stupid or the decision stupid or anything stupid, its just you opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Laphael

I get it, you don´t like limited Blu, that´s ok.

But that doesn´t make the reasons stupid or the decision stupid or anything stupid, its just you opinion.

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No, the reasons are stupid.

They literally make no sense.

As I explained in my post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Laphael

I get it, you don´t like limited Blu, that´s ok.

But that doesn´t make the reasons stupid or the decision stupid or anything stupid, its just you opinion.

---

Well, like, that's just like, your opinion maaaan.

Except it's not, it's my opinion as well, and the opinion of many others too, judging by the amount of ongoing threads filled with complaints about current BLU.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Well, like, that's just like, your opinion maaaan.

Except it's not, it's my opinion as well, and the opinion of many others too, judging by the amount of ongoing threads filled with complaints about current BLU.

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Yes, like i said, opinion.

Blu in its current state needs of course adjustements. But i think of it as some kind of beta test (opinion), and we already now more content is coming after 5.0.
My problem with Blu is mostly, that ex primal farm is not fun and it feels not overpowered enough.

But the topic of this thread is not only limited blu, its the "concept of limited jobs".
SE should not turn back completely. Limited jobs have great potential, if done right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Laphael

Yes, like i said, opinion.

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Thanks for revelation, before you said anything I thought this was 50+ pages of people sharing 100% verifiable objective truths with each other. :rolleyes:

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Laphael

SE should not turn back completely. Limited jobs have great potential, if done right.

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They do, BLU is not done right though. It isn't unique enough to justify the limited tag, it plays as pretty much just a caster job with quirky skill acquisition.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Laphael

Every job excludes certain players from being able to enjoy it. Don´t like healers -> 3 Jobs excluded, don´t like tanks -> soon 4 jobs excluded...etc.

Why not both? It was said endless times already. 2 Big Reasons: Developement time/ressources and Design choice.

---

Which was replied with: Not a good excuse because you don't know that that is actually the problem OR that it falls flat when you actually take into account that their actions would at least reflect that decision, instead the implementation of BLU as it is now completely defeats that purpose on a conceptual level.

If they didn't have resources to spend then why hurt yourself even harder by implementing a piece of "content" that would have inevitably required to be expanded upon to even be remotely appealing? Which means even more work WITH MORE ON THE WAY, why? Because Yoshida once again digs his own grave by claiming that they do plan to add more limited AND normal jobs...

So what is happening IS stupid. It's like deciding to shoot your right hand because you didn't want to shoot your left hand.

And Kalise already explained the other stuff so I won't go further, but it is ludicrous to assume it's just a matter of "opinion" when there are genuine reasons that the "limited job" system should not exist like it is now. There were better implementations that wouldn't have upsetted others as much, and wouldn't have required an iconic job to get butchered, with more on the horizon that will suffer the same fate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anesteria

If they didn't have resources to spend then why hurt yourself even harder by implementing a piece of "content" that would have inevitably required to be expanded upon to even be remotely appealing? Which means even more work WITH MORE ON THE WAY, why? Because Yoshida once again digs his own grave by claiming that they do plan to add more limited AND normal jobs...

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Isn't that the same with all content? Thats how this game works, content is alive until new content comes out, then old content gets updated to be relevant again. Deep dungeon will get a level 80 version no doubt to keep it relevant.

BLU suffers from lack of content and too many restrictions adding to the former problem. Its not fundamentally bad content, and is easy to fix. We haven't even seen the limited job roadmap and you are saying that Yoshi P is digging his own grave?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Isn't that the same with all content? Thats how this game works, content is alive until new content comes out, then old content gets updated to be relevant again. Deep dungeon will get a level 80 version no doubt to keep it relevant.

BLU suffers from lack of content and too many restrictions adding to the former problem. Its not fundamentally bad content, and is easy to fix. We haven't even seen the limited job roadmap and you are saying that Yoshi P is digging his own grave?

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But that's not the point of what was being discussed.

If resources are an issue you don't stretch yourself further when said content could have been implemented on something that was already available, instead of using an entirely new thing.

They could have implemented the purported vision of the "limited job" that Yoshida intended by using the already present jobs, by creating a new mode, that instead of being called "limited jobs" it could have been called "free mode" where each job gets treated with the same aim as BLU's "alleged" purpose, by creating actual content for each job with something specifically tailored to them akin to the Masked Carnival. So now each job will have its own SOLO challenges they have to complete, where they can earn rewards like job-specific mounts and glamour, which would already be superior to what the current Masked Carnival offers.

So now you got 2 birds with 1 stone, with SOLO content that appeases the crowd who wanted the "original identity" of certain jobs that had more of a monolithic identity than BLU, but still got changed for FFXIV. And Square Enix doesn't have to give every job its due all at once, they can gradually add over time 1 by 1 the various pieces that didn't require jobs to be thrown under the bus.

But coming back to the core, let us speak hypothetically, IF BLU would be declared the failure that it is because of negative feedback (where according to the latest interview they want to wait before deciding its fate, since, compared to another earlier statement from Yoshida, it seems to indicate that it's likely they did receive enough negative feedback already) and there comes the decision of turning it into a proper job. What could they conceivably do?

Scrap the limited jobs altogether?
Keep both systems?
Remove BLU?

Each scenario presents us with different implications that indicate how damaging "limited jobs" would then have been.

If they keep both systems alive then they could have implemented it from the beginning, as it was conceptually possible.
If they get rid of limited jobs, it would mean it was a failed experiment that wasted players' time and caused unnecessary unrest.
If they get rid of BLU, precedent exists that they will get rid of entire jobs just because they don't care about putting effort into something they created when they could have said NO from the start.

As a player, I'm against limited jobs; but an experiment is only a failure if you are expecting certain results. To gain any result is why you experiment in the first place.

As to saying "no" clearly a limited job is a compromise.

They got tired of we want x job threads for jobs they may not have had any intention to release. And what happened with their experiment. The die hard BLU said this isn't good enough we want a full job. And everyone else moved on to complaining about whichever job was next highest on their wishlist that wasn't in the game yet.

In a way, what SE proved to themselves is that the vocal playerbase will not be satisfied; and perhaps that if they are going to release a job it is better to do it completely, or not at all.

I would not mind limited jobs IF:

They got to the natural level cap
Trusts are introduced [at all level ranges] to let me play [ALL] dungeons even if no one is around to help me run them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anesteria

But that's not the point of what was being discussed.

If resources are an issue you don't stretch yourself further when said content could have been implemented on something that was already available, instead of using an entirely new thing.

They could have implemented the purported vision of the "limited job" that Yoshida intended by using the already present jobs, by creating a new mode, that instead of being called "limited jobs" it could have been called "free mode" where each job gets treated with the same aim as BLU's "alleged" purpose, by creating actual content for each job with something specifically tailored to them akin to the Masked Carnival. So now each job will have its own SOLO challenges they have to complete, where they can earn rewards like job-specific mounts and glamour, which would already be superior to what the current Masked Carnival offers.

So now you got 2 birds with 1 stone, with SOLO content that appeases the crowd who wanted the "original identity" of certain jobs that had more of a monolithic identity than BLU, but still got changed for FFXIV. And Square Enix doesn't have to give every job its due all at once, they can gradually add over time 1 by 1 the various pieces that didn't require jobs to be thrown under the bus.

But coming back to the core, let us speak hypothetically, IF BLU would be declared the failure that it is because of negative feedback (where according to the latest interview they want to wait before deciding its fate, since, compared to another earlier statement from Yoshida, it seems to indicate that it's likely they did receive enough negative feedback already) and there comes the decision of turning it into a proper job. What could they conceivably do?

Scrap the limited jobs altogether?
Keep both systems?
Remove BLU?

Each scenario presents us with different implications that indicate how damaging "limited jobs" would then have been.

If they keep both systems alive then they could have implemented it from the beginning, as it was conceptually possible.
If they get rid of limited jobs, it would mean it was a failed experiment that wasted players' time and caused unnecessary unrest.
If they get rid of BLU, precedent exists that they will get rid of entire jobs just because they don't care about putting effort into something they created when they could have said NO from the start.

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the point of limited jobs was not solo only versions of jobs, that is merely a feature of blu. The point of limited jobs are jobs that dont fit into the narrow framework of duty finder based jobs.

the point is, if you are analyzing success or failure of an experiment, you have to know what the "problem" they are trying to solve is.

the problem was not we need more solo content, the problem was, how can we create new interesting jobs, if we feel the concept we want to create doesnt fit within the rules of our standard pipeline.

First question is, change the job, or change the pipeline. They have decided against changing the pipeline. At this point they have no desire to mess with the standard job/dutyfinder formula.so then they decided to change the job, they did this with rdm, and this almost lead to them scrapping rdm, and required lots of last minute work and changes, according to them. At this point, they decided its probably not worth it, in their opinion to try to incorporate something too different into the standard design, They would rather make an all new job, which fits more easily into the framework in the future. But then for blu mage, someone fought hard for it. They came up with the idea, if fitting it into our design paradigm is a problem, why not make something outside the paradigm. Because it was just an experiment, they put a small amount of resources into it, over a longer period of time.

Once they realized it would've outside of duty finder, it would have to have more solo focus than other classes by neccessity, It also would not need to specifically be balanced around regular parties, this doesnt mean OP in raw power, but rather its not balanced based on grouping/utility.

I extrapolated this from things they have said about blu mage, red mage, jobs in general, and decisions they have made in the past. But most clearly yoshida has said the specific reason blue mage was created seperate, is because he did not want to make a blu mage that wasnt conceptually a traditional blue mage, and he doesnt want to change the regular job/duty rules.


So heree the long and short of it, yoshida was looking at no blu mage, or this blu mage. And the experiment was, can we create jobs that work differently than normal jobs and give them their own box to play in.

there would be no blu mage, if we didnt get this blu mage. And if limited jobs fail, all jobs will have to be standard jobs with standard limitations, and similar systems.

IMO the limited job system is one of the best things for this game, because the old framework is too small/rigid of a box to grow in. It was good for starting out, but at this point things are getting to be remixes of one another.

also, nothing you see outside the initial game is going to be complete, the game is a service, things are going to grow/change. They figure it out as they go, and solve problems as the need arises.


And at the end of the day, not all content is for everyone. This was content for me i suppose, and not content for you, thats fine. It was worth it to me, and got me interested in playing the game again. They basically made like 150 bucks from me they would not have made otherwise, and for people like you they have everything else in the game, its a win win.

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Originally Posted by Physic

And at the end of the day, not all content is for everyone. This was content for me i suppose, and not content for you, thats fine. It was worth it to me, and got me interested in playing the game again. They basically made like 150 bucks from me they would not have made otherwise, and for people like you they have everything else in the game, its a win win.

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NO, Physic. It's not a win-win for everyone. It's not a win for me, or people like Rei, Kalise, etc.
Do you think that I was joking or was being facetious when I said I was unsubbing until BLU was made into a proper job? I'm more in line with what Valde said in regards to this, so I will be frank and say that this situation pissed me off a lot.

I wouldn't be here complaining if this was a so called "win win". So I'll reiterate, it's not a win for people like us who have found this issue to be harming greatly our enjoyment of the game. It doesn't mean that I think the game is awful otherwise, but a negative can be that big to overshadow the positives sometimes, especially when it is sold with such dishonest excuses. The subsequent directions about genderlocking and what not, do not help either.

If YOU are ok with a literal drop of content and call it "fun" while being content to have the wool pulled over your eyes, as well as telling others "everything is fine" as long as it's fine for you, then you are operating on VERY shaky grounds.

For the rest I already addressed Yoshida's "alleged" intentions. Which is what I meant when building on already existing foundations (the other jobs) by doing exactly what your so called presuppositions about identity regarding the others because they operate differently from how their "identity" would demand them to be. That's why I expanded on a revisited implementation of the system.

If everyone were happy, people wouldn't be demanding for BLU to be made into an actual job, they wouldn't be unsubbing over it.
It was a bad move, and no matter what you say, no matter the mental gymnastics involved to attempt to sell it as something "good", it won't change what it actually is.

Unless the objective was insincere from the start because its creation was meant to be nothing more than a means to advertise an upcoming expansion. Do the Allied Races in WoW ring any bells when Blizzard did the same thing? Except there was actual effort put into them from the beginning and they were not left in any "limited" state, other than the requirement to earn them.

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Originally Posted by Anesteria

NO, Physic. It's not a win-win for everyone. It's not a win for me, or people like Rei, Kalise, etc.
Do you think that I was joking or was being facetious when I said I was unsubbing until BLU was made into a proper job? I'm more in line with what Valde said in regards to this, so I will be frank and say that this situation pissed me off a lot.


I wouldn't be here complaining if this was a so called "win win". So I'll reiterate, it's not a win for people like us who have found this issue to be harming greatly our enjoyment of the game. It doesn't mean that I think the game is awful otherwise, but a negative can be that big to overshadow the positives sometimes, especially when it is sold with such dishonest excuses. The subsequent directions about genderlocking and what not, do not help either.

If YOU are ok with a literal drop of content and call it "fun" while being content to have the wool pulled over your eyes, as well as telling others "everything is fine" as long as it's fine for you, then you are operating on VERY shaky grounds.

For the rest I already addressed Yoshida's "alleged" intentions. Which is what I meant when building on already existing foundations (the other jobs) by doing exactly what your so called presuppositions about identity regarding the others because they operate differently from how their "identity" would demand them to be. That's why I expanded on a revisited implementation of the system.

If everyone were happy, people wouldn't be demanding for BLU to be made into an actual job, they wouldn't be unsubbing over it.
It was a bad move, and no matter what you say, no matter the mental gymnastics involved to attempt to sell it as something "good", it won't change what it actually is.

Unless the objective was insincere from the start because its creation was meant to be nothing more than a means to advertise an upcoming expansion. Do the Allied Races in WoW ring any bells when Blizzard did the same thing? Except there was actual effort put into them from the beginning and they were not left in any "limited" state, other than the requirement to earn them.

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If you left the game because the game holds no joy for you because blue mage isnt a standard job, then you would have left regardless, because blue would not have been added as a regular job.


If you left not because you needed blue mage, but because you dont like the idea of them experimenting, and doing things that are to far from their normal, i think you would have left anyway. If it wasnt blue, it would be something else, because ultimately what the devs are thinking, is that the game needs more creative solutions and content than before. They feel they will gain/retain more players than they lose by adding things that are outside their current box.



Maybe they are wrong, but thats the executive decision they made. They believe the game needs to grow horizontally and expand what type of content it offers players, rather than only refining, or continuing on the same content path.


And no one is pulling the wool over my eyes, or giving me a drop of content. Just because we disagree doesnt mean i am ignorant or misled. I like blue mage because i had more fun messing around with blue mage, than i did leveling warrior, or finishing leveling monk, or doing omega scape, or dailies, or doing 24 mans.



leveling regular jobs was like somewhat entertaining, The most enteraining things i have done since coming back, mostly to play try blue mage was, blue mage, Eureka, and Heavensward main story. Leveling monk was somewhat entertaining, but less so than the other things.



So for me, no wool, its some of the things that you and kalise and Rei hate, that are what i found the most entertaining. Blue Mage, and limited jobs definitely has some issues to work out, and ways to improve, but for me the thing most likely to keep me playing is the outside of the box stuff, not more access to 8 man raids.

Here's something that I don't think gets mentioned, but if it has, I didn't see it looking through all these forums (52 pages now) and touching back on.

Yoshida has stated in interviews and fanfest live letter that people would be kicked for not having specific things accessed. Let's rewind that a bit and think about those from a job skill perspective:
1) Marauder gets tomahawk at 15. You absolutely need this. You cannot get WAR unlocked unless you do this quest. Period. As you need level 30 for WAR access and all those quests done. You cannot think getting to 60 or 70 as a Marauder won't get you kicked from an instance or dungeon (aside from party finder 4dalulz or fc party).
2) You also absolutely need Defiance and/or your skills between 30 - 60 and now 70 (soon to be 80). You can't also think you wouldn't be kicked for the same issues, right?

BLU can have its spells learned through both the Carnival (solo) and through skills specifically made or tailored to a standard job like every other job in the game.

Yoshida has also stated that spells like DEATH would be Overpowered because you can cause those spells to defeat the boss in an instance. I call this a crock of goblinshite (FFXIV terms) because of how other spells in this game work. You think you can't just make mobs or bosses resist spells? WHM, BLM and SMN would all like to have a word with you, Yoshida. You can't use certain spells like sleep or slow on bosses as it is. Certain mobs post 49+ in dungeons, raids and 24 man raids are all resistant.

DOOMs spell information for BLU:
Inflicts Doom on target. When effect expires, the target will be KO'd. Chance of successful attack is low. Has no effect on enemies whose level is higher than your own.
(Another tip for knowledge off hand: If a boss is immune to instant death, it is immune to Missile, Doom and Tail Screw).

I tested doom on Ifrit 50 extreme. I went into Odin at 50 in pf and tested doom. I tested this on multiple monsters pre 50 (and bosses) in dungeons and post 50, and doom had the same "FULLY RESISTED" words pop up like any other boss in the game (aside from most fates level 50).

So with this in mind, you're telling me that squeenix couldn't consider putting a cap on specific monsters (like they already do to fully resist) to ensure that BLU stays party-enabled, but isn't so overpowered to the point that spells can't be used on the boss? Such a wonderful excuse for more goblinshite.

I support this, no more limited jobs pretty please