Bard - they broke my job

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Originally Posted by Ephier

Giving them more WD does not fix the issue. GB and WM will still be in the same relative state that they are in now compared to their non stance forms, weaker.

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Of course. I was merely speaking to our overall damage output. GB and WM are a separate (but related) issue.

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Originally Posted by Waeksyn

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to be honest, I would have rathered they just made it to where you can hold down a skill's keybind to incur a cast time and damage boost on whatever you're doing
though, your second note is wrong because I can easily weave in any ogcd skills (even repelling shot without canceling my next) without clipping GCD, besides for empyreal arrow of course, it sounds like you have a latency issue
which doesn't make you entirely wrong, but SE probably playtests everything on a local server with 0 ping which is probably part of the reason why NIN mudras turned out so badly.

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Originally Posted by aabe

snip.

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The problem is 2.x Bards at the end of FCOB could put in two OGCD skills attacks or buffs without interrupting the GCD. So WM makes their attacking slow by forcing a cast time. So at best in 1 GCD you are getting out 2 hits at best as opposed to before when we could get out 3 as well as put in our buffs a much faster rate without losing a beat on the GCDs. SE didn't give it the proper thinking and it's one of the issues without any sort of public testing allowed for these changes.

Also the issue with casting is in regards to targets that move. There are several fights already that I have had attacks cancelled because the target is dashing just enough to be out of "view". This is a huge problem and usually ends up with wasting a good 2.5 seconds of DPS. At first I liked WM and thought I could handle it and after seeing EA I was like "wow the damage!" Then I hit 60 and saw how slow bard was compared to other jobs and even TANKS were doing more damage. As a min maxing bard and someone who took pride in my DPS at the end of FCOB I find this infuriating.

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Originally Posted by LLamaPie

The problem is 2.x Bards at the end of FCOB could put in two OGCD skills attacks or buffs without interrupting the GCD. So WM makes their attacking slow by forcing a cast time. So at best in 1 GCD you are getting out 2 hits at best as opposed to before when we could get out 3 as well as put in our buffs a much faster rate without losing a beat on the GCDs. SE didn't give it the proper thinking and it's one of the issues without any sort of public testing allowed for these changes.

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I'm fully aware of that but the way they wrote their post was implying even one oGCD clips you now.

Also, the hard truth is that the only fights we have right now are pretty terrible for parsing. Training dummies are the most "fair" thing whereas in progression raiding tanks will be doing a lot more safe stuff, it's not like they're gonna be able to commit even nearly full-time to DPS and having to flip off the deeps stance to pick up adds or soak a split cleave, tank swap, you get the idea there are a million things, but any combination of them heavily tones down a tank's DPS

AFTER progression going into more farm oriented raiding, sure, but technically that's past the point of your group's numbers being relevant.

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Originally Posted by aabe

I'm fully aware of that but the way they wrote their post was implying even one oGCD clips you now.

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It almost does, but you can start casting the next GCD during the OGCD animation so you don't really lose any time. Again though, the problem is Bard is just SLOWER overall now. Less hits over time than before which obviously means less overall DPS.

Wow. What a wonderful thing, to have such stigma attached to my beloved job.
Not healed, died, not raised, ran back not given protect afterwards, died once more on a trash when pots and 2nd wind were on CD, and a third time on the second boss. So I called out the healer.

tank: bard damage is too low.
healer: you don't do enough damage.
Me: So you would rather have me do no damage instead?
Screen goes black.
You have been dismissed from the party.

If this is the attitude the community has taken toward bard (and machinist), we need adjustments sooner rather than later to fix this epic screw up.

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Originally Posted by ChloeGrace

Wow. What a wonderful thing, to have such stigma attached to my beloved job.
Not healed, died, not raised, ran back not given protect afterwards, died once more on a trash when pots and 2nd wind were on CD, and a third time on the second boss. So I called out the healer.

tank: bard damage is too low.
healer: you don't do enough damage.
Me: So you would rather have me do no damage instead?
Screen goes black.
You have been dismissed from the party.

If this is the attitude the community has taken toward bard (and machinist), we need adjustments sooner rather than later to fix this epic screw up.

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Well ya BRD damage sucks but that is just ... Sorry you had to go through that xD.

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Originally Posted by ChloeGrace

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Those are just really bad players. I've been in plenty of groups without an issue as a MCH and haven't run into any of them yet, thankfully. Actually had the opposite yesterday. After the DRG died because he got pushed off the edge by the last boss of Neverreap with 1/2 it's health left, we finished it off with just three and I was given a commendation and a compliment for not sucking (lol... I know, it's a bit sad when that's considered a compliment).

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Originally Posted by ChloeGrace

Wow. What a wonderful thing, to have such stigma attached to my beloved job.
Not healed, died, not raised, ran back not given protect afterwards, died once more on a trash when pots and 2nd wind were on CD, and a third time on the second boss. So I called out the healer.

tank: bard damage is too low.
healer: you don't do enough damage.
Me: So you would rather have me do no damage instead?
Screen goes black.
You have been dismissed from the party.

If this is the attitude the community has taken toward bard (and machinist), we need adjustments sooner rather than later to fix this epic screw up.

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My husband and I were trying to get Bismarck (hard) done for our main scenario tonight. For those who have yet to complete it, the fight is a DPS check. We had 3 bards in the party. One person immediately left, saying, "Yeah, this isn't happening with 3 bards."

My husband has been a bard main since ARR launch, and all he wants is for his class to be respected DPS. His disappointment tonight after seeing how the attitude of the community is becoming negatively biased against bards was frustrating. :(

honestly after a lot of thought i think the best course of action is this;
the point of WM was to bring our dps up to casters DPS while still giving us a penalty for it. so why not remove our support?
if our support was half the reason they gimped us (the other half being mobility) then remove our support and give us the damage buff. i wouldn't mind a 3 second cast if it means i get 20% damage up at the loss of my support aspects (make all the other songs unusable and turning one on removes the effects of Wanderer's minuet).

Keep the cast time on EA and while minuet is up change Barrage to what it currently is (the triple attack for a single target wep skill) and when you are in support mode change barrage back to the auto attack buff.
hopefully warden's paean becomes useful and at that point i feel like bard might be in a better place.

to summarise
Wanderer's Minuet:
Increases damage by 15% for the duration of the effect. cannot be used with other songs, cannot be affected by battle voice.
Additional effects: Causes Barrage to cause a single target, non-critical weapon skill to hit 3 times.

please keep in mind that the reason i say 15% and not 20% is because i don't want bard to be top dps, i want us to only do more damage than the tanks but less damage than the dedicated dps purely because we do have mobility on our side.

with 15% and AA dps with emp arrow and IJ i honestly think 10% might actually fit better for achieving that but i feel like if they don't want to completely ruin bard's playstyle while still letting it do some better DPS then they should be making the risk be no more support for the party with the reward being that big DPS boost for us.

it then becomes more about knowing when to have it off for the party and when to keep it on for our own boosts to dps.

I am on PS4 so have not been able to see what I am dpsing currently but What are Top Tier Bards DPS ing now??? Would love to see some solid #'s on this.

I'd rather have WM would make our attacks melee range.
If melee can have high numbers because they have to stay in melee range, I don't mind playing a melee BRD for dps gain, since that doesn't actually breaks the BRD playstyle as the current WM does.

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Originally Posted by Mikedizzy

I am on PS4 so have not been able to see what I am dpsing currently but What are Top Tier Bards DPS ing now??? Would love to see some solid #'s on this.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._wm_no_wm_and/

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

I'd rather have WM would make our attacks melee range.
If melee can have high numbers because they have to stay in melee range, I don't mind playing a melee BRD for dps gain, since that doesn't actually breaks the BRD playstyle as the current WM does.

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I'd rather them just expand the original kit instead of killing any sort of mobility that bard has. Like, what was the purpose of nerfing that to begin with? BRD was good dps never great dps. Now it is poor because the entire 50-60 skill benefits besides sidewinder revolve around a song that completely ruins bard.

They have improved bards. Treat the new style as if you was playing a blm.

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Originally Posted by Syrixa

They have improved bards. Treat the new style as if you was playing a blm.

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It's not an improvement by any sense of the word. If I wanted to play BLM, I would never have leveled my Bard past 34.

you need to think of it as increased dmg yes they reduce our movement but we increased dps you just need to learn a new rotation i play the bard and i love the new set they have done to em and i can already see a increase they will not be able to top a mnk nina blm or any of the higher dps because they was never meant to. their are still under the definition of a support class though that is not a thing in this game atm but they have and will always be a low dps class regardless

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Originally Posted by Syrixa

you need to think of it as increased dmg yes they reduce our movement but we increased dps

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So, I should only focus on the negligible damage increase while ignoring the other detrimental side effects? I think you're severely missing the point...

no you all are you got to think technical and strategical with the bards now. they improved them. you just need to look at it a little longer then 5 mins before coming to a conclusion

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Originally Posted by Syrixa

no you all are you got to think technical and strategical with the bards now.

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Please enlighten me as to how they are more strategic now, and how a poorly implemented DPS stance helps with this?

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Originally Posted by Syrixa

they improved them.

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Originally Posted by Rhael

It's not an improvement by any sense of the word.

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Originally Posted by Syrixa

you just need to look at it a little longer then 5 mins before coming to a conclusion

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I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. While more theorycrafting would be useful, I fail to see how removing mobility is a good idea when it is a large reason why plenty of people played Bard.

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Originally Posted by lugiaXD

Wanderer's Minuet:
Increases damage by 15% for the duration of the effect. cannot be used with other songs, cannot be affected by battle voice.
Additional effects: Causes Barrage to cause a single target, non-critical weapon skill to hit 3 times.

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This makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

This makes sense.

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and here i got worried my suggestion just went completely unnoticed XD

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Originally Posted by Syrixa

no you all are you got to think technical and strategical with the bards now. they improved them. you just need to look at it a little longer then 5 mins before coming to a conclusion

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Tried it for an entire dungeon and multiple times in the open world, giving it a chance, our class doesn't work properly with cast times, our ability set was not designed for it and we sure as hell didn't pick Bard to be a caster, so from me.. to you, get out.

One who doesn't even play Bard has no right telling us how our class that we've been enjoying for the past 2 years is suppose to work.

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Originally Posted by Syrixa

no you all are you got to think technical and strategical with the bards now. they improved them. you just need to look at it a little longer then 5 mins before coming to a conclusion

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Improved in what way? It didn't improve damage, the best parses out there are about on par with what the job was capable of prior to 3.0, but now we have to be in a clunky Machinist designed stance that was tacked onto Bard for job homogeneity just to be able to do the same comparative DPS that we were prior to 3.0, in a stance that is supposed to increase our damage. We're basically the same but have to be in a casting stance, how is that better?

I can't see them admitting the stance idea is bad and scrapping it, but to say it's in any way better is beyond me. It doesn't give us the ability to do any more damage, it fundamentally changes the job, it's like taking Ninja and making them turn into a ranged ninja star throwing class. What exactly was improved?

I guess Wanderer's Minuet can be a noticeable DPS increase.. if you were a Bard that had trouble landing autoattacks and weaving several off-globals between globals.

Every time I wake up I hope all of this was a bad dream.
That the next time I start up the game I get to learn 5 new HW abilities on my BRD.
Then I pray these new abilities are nothing like the ones in my dream and that they actually fit the class and the playstyle.

And then I wake up for real.

(Actually not hating on IJ & EA but they'r locked behind WM so not much love I can give them either and well Sidewinder is pretty basic but at least it works)

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Originally Posted by Tua

I guess Wanderer's Minuet can be a noticeable DPS increase.. if you were a Bard that had trouble landing autoattacks and weaving several off-globals between globals.

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So if you're a bad bard. The overall changes to bard have resulted in a % decrease in DPS considering scaling. I went in to a level 50 instance with the same stats I did at the end of FCOB and did 100 less DPS. The main reason is the change to auto attacks. The barrage nerf is really being understated right now as well as the det change. Det no longer buffs autos.

The overall change is workable, but in all honesty SE should have made it to where AutoAttacks were compensated for when in WM stance. This is the main reason the DPS variance is negligible between being in the stance full time and only putting it up for the bigger hits, and also why even staying in it full time isn't putting us up where we should be in the DPS list. Overall this is a nerf because DoT's in the stance, even with 550~600 Skill speed doesn't compensate for the lost Auto Attack damage. SE dropped the ball on something that was supposed to be a boost and made it almost pointless to use effectively dropping brd even lower in dps than it already was in comparison to others.

WM should be a positive game changer; something that a brd puts on in exchange for mobility and goes "Wow, I wish I could stay in that more often" not "I hate having to stay in this to have better lack luster dps in low-mobility needed situations."

In all honesty, DoTs should get a potency upgrade when in WM to compensate for AA loss, or make it so that consecutive use of Iron Jaw causes a potency upgrade to DoT damage. We have lowest Weapon Damage, songs that still lower our output when used, and a stance that isn't much better to be in than not using it at all. It feels like as soon as 3.0 came out that developers came up to us, took away all our good bows and gave us bows that have no oomph and instead of shooting arrows, we shoot 'Nothing but shafts' as our achievement implies. Talk about getting shafted....

For those who don't understand the issue: it isn't that brd want to be top DPS, it is that we shouldn't have to be so much lower that people feel the spot would be better used by another DPS instead. For raid, I'm sure the need of songs will keep them there...but it will be at a great stigma because the output will be the weakest link even with mobility. Mobility was the main thing that helped brd at least keep up with DPS, now we have changes that lower our Mobility output, and a stance that doesn't really increase our output even close to what other DPS put out.....25-30% lower DPS is not acceptable.

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Originally Posted by Kitkat

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Yes pretty much. I don't want to be top DPS but I shouldn't be doing so much less than other classes. + Our utility songs besides Foe all nerf our dps even further. That is something they should have taken out a while ago tbh. Bard's dps is low enough we don't need to be punished for using our support.

The dmg is good the only thing is your using a third party program to measure something you should know by heart third party dps meters go through a buffer system that does not count every single thing that the chrs do. the new skill is good but needs a slight tweak learn the rotation and you'll be fine i am using it on my bard and my dps hasn't decreased.
Also bards will never out dps the other dps classes they have been will be and always going to be the lowest dps in the game

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Originally Posted by Syrixa

The dmg is good the only thing is your using a third party program to measure something you should know by heart third party dps meters go through a buffer system that does not count every single thing that the chrs do. the new skill is good but needs a slight tweak learn the rotation and you'll be fine i am using it on my bard and my dps hasn't decreased

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I mean... if it's not counting every little thing as you say then it is also not counting every little thing for the other dps classes so your point is moot. :\

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Originally Posted by Syrixa

The dmg is good the only thing is your using a third party program to measure something you should know by heart third party dps meters go through a buffer system that does not count every single thing that the chrs do. the new skill is good but needs a slight tweak learn the rotation and you'll be fine i am using it on my bard and my dps hasn't decreased.
Also bards will never out dps the other dps classes they have been will be and always going to be the lowest dps in the game

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........ Dude, you have no clue what you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by LLamaPie

........ Dude, you have no clue what you're talking about.

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Wow I just crit for 7k sidewinder my dps must be through the roof

/s

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Originally Posted by Syrixa

The dmg is good the only thing is your using a third party program to measure something you should know by heart third party dps meters go through a buffer system that does not count every single thing that the chrs do. the new skill is good but needs a slight tweak learn the rotation and you'll be fine i am using it on my bard and my dps hasn't decreased.
Also bards will never out dps the other dps classes they have been will be and always going to be the lowest dps in the game

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States the damage is good, and then that it's the lowest DPS. Sure makes sense. States the issue with knowing how well Bard is doing is because the program is worse than our hearts at keeping up with a 15 minutes fights damage output.

Do SE a favor and ask if they can implement your heart into their API so we can have it beat on our screen and display our true DPS according to the heart of a level 56 Bard.

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Originally Posted by Syrixa

The dmg is good the only thing is your using a third party program to measure something you should know by heart third party dps meters go through a buffer system that does not count every single thing that the chrs do. the new skill is good but needs a slight tweak learn the rotation and you'll be fine i am using it on my bard and my dps hasn't decreased.
Also bards will never out dps the other dps classes they have been will be and always going to be the lowest dps in the game

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The heart or "feels fine" is not the same as tracked damage, regardless of there is some of it being "eaten by a buffer" as your post seems to imply. Your implication is basically saying that a program is somehow mysteriously screwing up one single class, or screwing up every other class but one. That is the worst..possible....argument.

You want me to go by Feeling and the heart? Ok, without using any other software, and only gauging based off what I can visibly see and track like a PS4 player, I can tell you for a fact I feel and know in my heart our output is not even close to other DPS. It is not fine, it is not ok, it is not acceptable. I can tell you of old instances where there were times I could pull hate because my DPS spiked high in the middle of a fight, or instances where if I wasn't paying attention I could inadvertently take hate off someone that wasn't quite well geared or didn't know how to do their job as a tank.

I now do everything I possibly can and my hate can be overshadowed to the point any other DPS will take hate before me, or if I do manage to take hate for a fraction of a second it is torn away by the other DPS and then overshadowed quickly. That is a heart felt indicator that our damage is well under everyone else.

So what, we can use burst damage to do about equal to a LB1 damage total if the planets align for crit on Sidewinder, all buffs are up, piercing resistance is down and trick attack is on.....but how often is that? How does that make up for the obvious lack of AutoAttack damage? Other jobs can do this to...and consistently. For christ sake, nin has a +20% buff that is up all the time with absolutely no negative side effect on top of having some of the highest potency attacks, a new attack allowing them to keep huton up so they can use dps mudra more often, and buffs the damage of everyone else every 60 seconds.

I don't know what makes you feel in your heart that brd output is nominal, but it isn't. Again, no one is asking for brd to be top dps, or to be better than having another dps. People who play brd are asking that we don't feel like an absolute burden to the group over other dps options when our support just isn't needed.

The only "heart felt" good thing we got out of 3.0 was Rain of Death sharing similar characteristics of blood letter. This has the potential to increase our AOE output rather nicely...but our single target output is abysmal in comparison to other DPS hands down...I don't want to be a burden to my group, I want to be a valued commodity. Something that can reasonably keep up in DPS while providing support....not something that people look at and think "I wish we didn't need their songs to do this so we could just have them come something else for better dps."

The worst part is tho, that no dungeon is a dps check that could be failed if player plays avargely on every job with not the best gear wearing, but this thing that our dps is simply notably low also poisons avarage dumb shmucks mind and they start to reason everying behind our low dps. I was kicked from DF expert roulette simply because some idiot BLM in MSQ gear thought I did low dps, its just shows what kind of effect the smallest notion of inequal dmg can do to community

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Originally Posted by LLamaPie

........ Dude, you have no clue what you're talking about.

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And you clearly never played any other MMO in your life other then this one.

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Originally Posted by ChalupaBatman

Wow I just crit for 7k sidewinder my dps must be through the roof

/s

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I feel unfulfilled as a bardmage since black mages do 11k+!