What's next for new jobs after Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I mean AST was inspired from a guest character in an off-shoot Final Fantasy that was defined by 1 ability and that's it. Not to mention how games time-and-time again have proved the opposite to your statement about if it can be conceived, but whatever. Continue to preach that your interpretation of the job is gospel, and if you can't see the charm in the concept, then it simply doesn't exist.

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AST actually helps prove the point I am trying to make, because we didn't get Gambler or Time Mage in XIV and likely never will. It's a better version of both (at least as far as aligning with XIV's job design sensibilities), with a more visually stylized weapon concept than Gambler and a more cohesively realized ability kit fantasy than Time Mage. And it wasn't Corsair either.

PUP, like COR, lacks a strong history of relevance, as well as a core gimmick from XI (it's only official iteration) that would translate well to XIV's systems. On top of that, as I have said, what PUP did have was somewhat cannibalized and appropriated for MCH and RPR (much like what COR had was appropriated for MCH and AST). I continue to hold that we may see something PUP-like, but I think, like AST and MCH, it will likely be brought into XIV under an entirely different job fantasy.

The PUP spiritual successor could even go (and likely will go) the same route of pulling loose inspiration from said "off-shoot" which directly inspired AST *and* MCH. There are already two very likely candidates in Animist and Illusionist that do not have any of the problems PUP has fighting for design space with jobs already in the game. Especially after Reaper, I do not see the devs feeling compelling to double down on yet another arcane possession-type job when there are just better and easier ideas.

You of course are welcome to continue believing in the overwhelmingly improbable.

I mean, I never stated that PUP will become a job in the game or that nothing else could ever be as good as PUP. I've just been trying to denounce the idea that "I don't like it, so it's not a good job concept." I don't think AST does true justice to the concept of Gambler or Time Mage and feel that either of those concepts could be composed in a unique and compelling way that could be distinct from AST. This all stemmed from the discussion about how much potential there was for future jobs, which I would argue there's still a wealth of, and stopping here based on potentiality alone would be a shame. What argument I do see as valid is the arguement of resources needed to continue to grow the roster of jobs. However, since XIV has yet to plateau and continues to grow in population and popularity, I would argue investing into more manpower to maintain the steady expansion of jobs would be a positive move.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I mean, I never stated that PUP will become a job in the game or that nothing else could ever be as good as PUP. I've just been trying to denounce the idea that "I don't like it, so it's not a good job concept." I don't think AST does true justice to the concept of Gambler or Time Mage and feel that either of those concepts could be composed in a unique and compelling way that could be distinct from AST. This all stemmed from the discussion about how much potential there was for future jobs, which I would argue there's still a wealth of, and stopping here based on potentiality alone would be a shame. What argument I do see as valid is the arguement of resources needed to continue to grow the roster of jobs. However, since XIV has yet to plateau and continues to grow in population and popularity, I would argue investing into more manpower to maintain the steady expansion of jobs would be a positive move.

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I admit I don't like the job, but that is not really my basis for saying it is unlikely. Not every job in the game is going to be for me. I don't really like Reaper either but it at least makes sense within XIV's design sensibilities.

What I am seeing quite a lot is people who for some reason *love* a job concept so much that they try to denounce all the existing evidence for why that job is not a very good idea. They think a game with DRK and RDM (and SAM and GNB) still needs a Rune Fencer or Mystic Knight. They think a game with AST as implemented is somehow missing or still has design space for Gambler or Time Mage. They think a game that is abandoning pet jobs needs a non-limited Beastmaster or Puppetmaster. Most job proposals on these forums are profoundly myopic and wholly inconsiderate of the 9 year edifice which already exists to contextualize and limit design decisions.

So it doesn't really matter whether I personally think the PUP job fantasy is pretty thin and tawdry. I admit that my surprise is amplified by the fact that PUP is a hill anyone would die on over something newer and more inspired. But the surprise would still be there even if I thought PUP were at least a half-decent job concept like RUN or COR, because the design space has just been eaten away at this point, between the gradual elimination of pet jobs, the middling success of limited jobs, and the poaching of most of PUP's distinct job fantasy by MCH and RPR.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I admit I don't like the job, but that is not really my basis for saying it is unlikely. Not every job in the game is going to be for me. I don't really like Reaper either but it at least makes sense within XIV's design sensibilities.

What I am seeing quite a lot is people who for some reason *love* a job concept so much that they try to denounce all the existing evidence for why that job is not a very good idea. They think a game with DRK and RDM (and SAM and GNB) still needs a Rune Fencer or Mystic Knight. They think a game with AST as implemented is somehow missing or still has design space for Gambler or Time Mage. They think a game that is abandoning pet jobs needs a non-limited Beastmaster or Puppetmaster. Most job proposals on these forums are profoundly myopic and wholly inconsiderate of the 9 year edifice which already exists to contextualize and limit design decisions.

So it doesn't really matter whether I personally think the PUP job fantasy is pretty thin and tawdry. I admit that my surprise is amplified by the fact that PUP is a hill anyone would die on over something newer and more inspired. But the surprise would still be there even if I thought PUP were at least a half-decent job concept like RUN or COR, because the design space has just been eaten away at this point, between the gradual elimination of pet jobs, the middling success of limited jobs, and the poaching of most of PUP's distinct job fantasy by MCH and RPR.

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Well, my biggest appeal to PUP is the potentiality for it to be a tank actually. I do not like our existing tanks. I don't care for heavy armor/weapon job aesthetics in any regard. None of them fit into any of the aesthetics I like in fantasy jobs, but the idea of being a more mystical/whimsical tank does appeal to me and would give me a job in a role that I currently do not play at all in any capacity. What I imagine is creating a pseudo "ranged" tank that shares HP with their Puppet, but can move around and pre-position themselves for mechanics, but comes at the cost of being more technically challenging to pull off correctly. Aesthetically, I could see this taking on either a more mechanical style similar to the mammets we have currently, or go in a different, theatrical type of design--like a kabuki puppet or something along those lines, and the strings that you use to control the puppet are tied to your lifeforce. When you need to dodge mechanics, you have to recall your puppet and snap them back to you.

That's something that I think captures a design space we objectively do not have--that reaper does not encapsulate in the slightest. I think a concept like that would not only appeal to a fair amount of players, but could also draw people who aren't interested in tanks into tanking. One of the issues with tanks and healers aesthetically is they tend to hit many of the same general notes, so someone who's not interested in the heavy armor, big weapon aesthetic of WAR isn't any more likely to be interested in DRK, for example. GBN diverges slightly from that design, but is still a very in-your-face, "heavy" feeling aesthetic. Now, I'm not married to that idea in the sense that if we don't get that I'm quitting XIV or anything, nor do I think that rendition of the concept is likely to be made into a real job in this game, but I do think that's largely unique and interesting in contrast to what we currently have by a long shot.

EDIT: It would seem this concept already exists in a way here in this mobile MOBA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATDLd4bUoeM&t=267s

I am predicting that Green Mage is going to have a mallet polearm, where the "crystal" (like RDM's focus) is the head of the mallet. It will have enough mobility to cover the "blunt polearm" combat style that we don't have in the game, but also be able to flesh itself out with "greathammer" equivalents like sledges and mauls without stepping on actual greathammers that WAR seems to be getting.

I also would not mind at all a full-one greathammer Green Mage tank, but I think it is less likely and much more probable that it will be a caster job.

The impression I got based on Bozja, this year's Heavensturn and the ranged DPS Role Quest was that an Eastern-themed caster might be next (an Onmyoji or somesuch). Heavensturn even made it a point to highlight that there are "good" ones too, I guess throwing shade on those we fight in Bozja?

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Originally Posted by Tsiron

The impression I got based on Bozja, this year's Heavensturn and the ranged DPS Role Quest was that an Eastern-themed caster might be next (an Onmyoji or somesuch). Heavensturn even made it a point to highlight that there are "good" ones too, I guess throwing shade on those we fight in Bozja?

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I'm a big fan of Onmyoji as the new future caster. As far as caster weapons go, paper talismans has a lot of potential to be unique and exciting, as well as contrasting quite nicely to the other casters we have. Some examples that I think show this off very well:
- Fire Emblem Fates, the Diviner class evolves into Onmyoji--both using "scrolls" https://youtu.be/o23gCLGJ5AU?t=31
- Xenoblade Chroncles 3 dropped its announcement trailer recently, and one of the characters uses origami birds as weapons which looks badass. A couple different timestamps that show this off... https://youtu.be/t-iNpDKuYb8?t=50 & https://youtu.be/t-iNpDKuYb8?t=70

I also think it could very comfortably adopt the abandoned DoT mage elements from SMN and potentially expand on it in ways SMN never could due to it being torn between two demanding aesthetics before EW. I know SMN is a spicy topic right now, but if players who were really enamored with its old playstyle got to see those lost elements revived into a new job like this, that could be a really positive move for the magical DPS role.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I'm a big fan of Onmyoji as the new future caster. As far as caster weapons go, paper talismans has a lot of potential to be unique and exciting, as well as contrasting quite nicely to the other casters we have. Some examples that I think show this off very well:
- Fire Emblem Fates, the Diviner class evolves into Onmyoji--both using "scrolls" https://youtu.be/o23gCLGJ5AU?t=31

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Except, y'know, not really contrasting with AST at all. If we didn't have AST, I'd say sure, but already those ofuda animations come extremely close to AST's floating deck of cards schtick.

The bird thing is whatever, although that feels like a concept pretty unique to Xenoblade and I wouldn't believe SE would just blatantly copy an "ofuda-origami" job from another title wholesale, at least not without putting a heavy spin on it like SGE. Maybe instead of birds it would be other animals and then you have your BST/PUP job.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Except, y'know, not really contrasting with AST at all. If we didn't have AST, I'd say sure, but already those ofuda animations come extremely close to AST's floating deck of cards schtick.

The bird thing is whatever, although that feels like a concept pretty unique to Xenoblade and I wouldn't believe SE would just blatantly copy an "ofuda-origami" job from another title wholesale, at least not without putting a heavy spin on it like SGE. Maybe instead of birds it would be other animals and then you have your BST/PUP job.

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That's quite the uncharitable reading you're doing of Ofuda. No, there's actually nothing that a Western, cosmic fortune teller has in common with an Eastern, demon-cleansing spirit medium other than they use magic and they hold things.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Except, y'know, not really contrasting with AST at all. If we didn't have AST, I'd say sure, but already those ofuda animations come extremely close to AST's floating deck of cards schtick.

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Aren't paper talismans typically consumed on use (in video games anyway)? They could have something like a quill or brush for a weapon instead to draw sigils on magical paper or in the air or on the ground depending on the purpose. Maybe even incorporate some elements of Pictomancer to broaden the scope a bit.