Can we please put Coils of Bahamut in normal raid roulette?

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

Then let me correct myself:
"Was it not like, literally impossible to DF these fights when they were relevant, since they weren't included in the Duty Finder then?"
relevant = current endgame

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Slightly true, pickup groups still happened even when they were relevant on even patch cycles. PF was much more primitive then and was locked to server population only.

Towards the release of heavensward, they unlocked T10 -> T13 in DF as well. All were in DF just before HW landed. They usually made it there during the odd patch cycle, 2.1, 2.3, 2.58 iirc?

The only fights you could not DF back then were T6 -> T9 SAVAGE, which required you to que up with a full pre-made.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

That’s not even what would wipe groups: it would be meteor placement and the golem adds.

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And beyond that, fire and ice tethers, dive bombs, the shard in the middle.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

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Slightly true, pickup groups still happened even when they were relevant on even patch cycles. PF was much more primitive then and was locked to server population only.

Towards the release of heavensward, they unlocked T10 -> T13 in DF as well. All were in DF just before HW landed. They usually made it there during the odd patch cycle, 2.1, 2.3, 2.58 iirc?

The only fights you could not DF back then were T6 -> T9 SAVAGE, which required you to que up with a full pre-made.

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This 'putting them in the Duty Finder in the next patch' thing sounds a lot like the loot unlock they would do for the current savage raids, which just reiterates the point how they were the 'savage' equivalent of their time. In my opinion, at least.

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Originally Posted by MeanDragon

So just to be clear:

The argument against adding it to roulettes is that it's too hard?

OK.

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Yeah sorry. I don't trust the skill levels of duty finder pugs enough to tolerate them in a savage level situation, thanks. I don't want to deal with someone who can't stay on Titan Hard's platform in T9. Or even T5 for that matter.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Yeah sorry. I don't trust the skill levels of duty finder pugs enough to tolerate them in a savage level situation, thanks. I don't want to deal with someone who can't stay on Titan Hard's platform in T9. Or even T5 for that matter.

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I would like to point out that MeanDragon did later acknowledge the state of affairs after having a disastrous garuda extreme run from DF.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

This 'putting them in the Duty Finder in the next patch' thing sounds a lot like the loot unlock they would do for the current savage raids, which just reiterates the point how they were the 'savage' equivalent of their time. In my opinion, at least.

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They WERE the savage equivalent of their time but with the massive nerfs that were done across the board (least HP nerfs) they were not bad anymore.

The fact that they were in DF even at the following patch cycle, means that the argument of "putting in in DF Roulette " means "it won't be clearable" is kinda moot. While some will STILL try and justify that because it was considered "SAVAGE" level back then that makes it more in line with EX /current savages but that's just not entirely true. If Blue Mages locked to level 50 with piss poor skills can clear the fights even with some knowledge, when you actually look at the fights with proper battle classes, factor in echo, factor in overgearing and HP/damage nerfs, these fights hardly measure up against the current Savage tier raids and people still don't get that. One particular point to understand, is that there was no previous content at the time to compare Coil to in terms of difficulty.

However through years of content, we do have content to compare it too. The fact that mechanics have also been reused in MANY different story mode fights means we now have referring context for literally any mechanic in coil. That means the community can easily identify what to do from something they've run prior. I am astonished at how many people are missing this. Doing PURELY MSQ/Normal/Hard mode instances, exposes you to almost all but 1 or 2 mechanics in the whole series.

There are literally 1 or 2 mechanics in the last bosses of T5, T9 and T13 that are guarentee party wipes or at least a member death.

T5 -> Twister (literally dodged by moving away from where you were standing) not a definitive party wipe.

T9 -> Meteor proximity, Golem eating either another Golem or 4 meteors. Two tanks grab two seperate adds, ranged grabs the last one, pull towards meteors and kill. Party wipe.

T13-> Twister tethers away from party, seperate add from Bahamut.

Like none of these are overly complicated, T9, being the worst, and the fact the forum community thinks these fights are THAT difficult in 5.0 after all the nerfs/ class buffs, reflects poorly on the forum community. The average skill level of DF is not as terrible as people are claiming. For every wipe or disband there are many more clears across all content (sans savage content when first implemented but this changes over time.)

If DF can handle M/F and Eden normal, it can absolutely handle coil.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

And beyond that, fire and ice tethers, dive bombs, the shard in the middle.

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You were able to stand in for most fires, as the ice dragon, goes through the whole party before the next one, sans maybe a body or two (depends on server ticks), with average dps back then, the boss died before divebombs usually.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

The fact that they were in DF even at the following patch cycle, means that the argument of "putting in in DF Roulette " means "it won't be clearable" is kinda moot.

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O12S is in duty finder, que up for that and come back here after you get in and let us know how it goes.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Like none of these are overly complicated, T9, being the worst, and the fact the forum community thinks these fights are THAT difficult in 5.0 after all the nerfs/ class buffs, reflects poorly on the forum community.

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Let me correct you on this: the forum community thinks that these fights are too much for DUTY FINDER ROULETTES. Not that they’re particularly hard. And, frankly, defining them as too hard for DF is fairly reasonable, given how much people have complained on here in the past about normal mode trials and 24-mans being too hard to do: people on here spent weeks during HW claiming that Weeping City was too hard. That Final Steps of Faith was too hard (story mode, not EX). That Dun Scaith was too hard. That Rabanastre was too hard (Hashmal, specifically). That Construct 7 in Ridorana was too hard. That Castrum Fluminis was too hard. That the Will of the Moon and Requiem for Heroes MSQ solo instances were too hard. That Orbonne Monastery was too hard (again: only 24-man raid to receive automatic +10% Echo).

I never thought the Coils were overly complicated when I did them in HW, and I don’t think they’re hard now. But I also recognize that my definitions of “hard” and “easy” vary substantially from other people’s definitions. I raid Savage. I do Ultimate fights. Of course, I don’t think Coil is hard. But most players in DF don’t raid Savage or do Ultimate, so their definitions are likely going to be different from mine. Based on what the forum does classify as “hard content”, I’m sure Coil would fall in the same boat.

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The average skill level of DF is not as terrible as people are claiming. For every wipe or disband there are many more clears across all content (sans savage content when first implemented but this changes over time.)

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I still disagree with this. I don’t think very highly of the average skill level of DF. Not when you still get DPS that refuse to AOE, healers that refuse to DPS, tanks that refuse to pop cooldowns for busters, and people that die to the same mechanic three times in a row.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

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The fact that you disagree, is interesting. All of the fights you mentioned have higher clear rates on DF then disbands, sans maybe at the time Orbonne Monastery, the most difficult mechanically 24 man ever introduced and that only got echo, no mechanic or HP nerfs.
In fact most content in story mode, recieves echo. Coil recieved mechanic nerfs, hp nerfs AND echo.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

O12S is in duty finder, que up for that and come back here after you get in and let us know how it goes.

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Coil was ONLY EVER equivalent to today's standards of savage content prenerf. How people (including you), post all these nerfs, still consider these fights overtly difficult is asinine. They are nowhere near as punishing by today's standards of savage.

Steps of Faith, literally had one major mechanic that required 3 people to execute simultaneously and people were complaining and failing to beat it. Why? The HP on the boss was soo high, it required proper execution of the missle at LEAST two times but preferably all three with low DPS. This was EASILY RECTIFIED with an explanation by even one person of the mechanic. But no one seems to be able to properly explain so the boss wasn't dying in time due to failed 2nd and third missles.

How did they nerf it? They didnt nerf the mechanics at all. They added echo and reduced boss HP, same nerfs that were done to most of coils in one form or another and it increased clear rates dramatically by making the dps checks nowhere near as tight. Again, most of this is exactly how current coil feels. You would need to actually try to do no damage to see every single mechanic/combo in the fights.

It's only Second Coil that was severely nerfed (sans T9) because people back when complained that it was too hard (T7 was a wall for people because things like this could happen). The nerfs in Final Coil only applied to the trash mobs outside of the boss arenas.

All of that said, one (or more) specific mechanic of Coil fights can make or break a random DF group. T7 could have Melusine hitting like a truck (with instant kill Flaming Circles) because people didn't pay attention to their Cursed Voice/Shrieks. T8 could cause wipes because no one was handling the towers, OT didn't stand in the boss to prevent it from turning when it confuses the MT, no one stacked the right amount for Ballistic Missile (if you've run ARF, you'll notice that most DF randos never stack right and always run away with/from Gaseous Bomb), or Allagan Field in general. T10 I 100% expect a person to die every time to the charge attack. T11 I expect the add phase to be wipe central (and if they manage to get past that, the tethers). T12 probably the Black Fires, blue fires, etc. T13 the Megaflares, Flare Stars, Tempest Wings, Akh Morn, Dive Bombs, etc.

I said this before, but I'll say it again. People want a quick and easy run. It's because of this mindset that dungeons like Amdapor Keep and Pharos Sirius were nerfed. Unless SE decide to nerf all of Coil to the point where Alte Roite Savage is harder, I cannot see DF roulette randos staying after one wipe (people still leave after one wipe in Chrysalis).