Do YOU think we'll get a new Tank and/or Healer in 4.0? And vice versa.

Sprint needs to just be a cooldown, not a tp cost. At least as far as pve goes.

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Originally Posted by Alacran

Why people insist on shoehorning RDM into a Tank I simply don't get. Sure a little work is all that's needed, but it already fits the wanted sword DPS class/ Job so well.

There have been plenty of in series references to the job that denote just how powerful it can be, stylistically it is one of the most recognizable staple of the series, and again it would give players the much wanted sword DPS.

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I have two reasons why this is the case

1. The sword is an iconic weapon of the brave, people who go straight in harms way and take the most risks.
2. The sword is not the only thing integral to Red Mage, past iterations also have it using both Black and White magic, which would make a little more sense for Tanks, than for DPS (SMN is an exception for reasons that the devourers deemed "a mistake")

To add, SAM, the other anticipated Job, also uses swords. In light of point 1, the devs might see 2 Sword DPS as too much. As as for "how powerful it could be" I must mention that past iterations are locked out of using the most powerful B/W spells, usually Flare, Holy, and any spell ending in -ga or -ja. With that said their other claim to fame is the use of Doublecast (or in the Bravely games, the Brave Mechanic) to get aroun that weakness to becoming a heavy hitter

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Originally Posted by Derio

Sprint needs to just be a cooldown, not a tp cost. At least as far as pve goes.

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yeah is so unfair for tp clases....

i guess Rdm would come to double cast on 1 min cd (the skills already exist , Brd barrage is "triple cast" )

Sword attacks with right hand and cast magic with left , they could use a mix of both to create combos

enhance sword with elements , and 1 finishers that changes based on that ...for spells

Fire as dot , Air as silence , Lighting as stun , Ice as heavy (or slow) , Earth could be used to protect the rdm for some dmg , or lower dmg done by the target ....

there are some many possibilities with rdm......

i loved that concept (credit to Obsy-3 )

http://pre14.deviantart.net/ff87/th/..._3-d8u5sjn.png

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I have two reasons why this is the case

1. The sword is an iconic weapon of the brave, people who go straight in harms way and take the most risks.
2. The sword is not the only thing integral to Red Mage, past iterations also have it using both Black and White magic, which would make a little more sense for Tanks, than for DPS (SMN is an exception for reasons that the devourers deemed "a mistake")

To add, SAM, the other anticipated Job, also uses swords. In light of point 1, the devs might see 2 Sword DPS as too much. As as for "how powerful it could be" I must mention that past iterations are locked out of using the most powerful B/W spells, usually Flare, Holy, and any spell ending in -ga or -ja. With that said their other claim to fame is the use of Doublecast (or in the Bravely games, the Brave Mechanic) to get aroun that weakness to becoming a heavy hitter

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Out of curiosity, how does it more sense for a Tank to use black and white magic of the Red Mage, but not use light to medium armor of a Samurai?

Lastly, my comment " a little work was all that's needed" was in error, more apt would be the Olympic level mental gymnastics people come up with to set RDM as a Tank, while the Asian equivalent of the knight can do the Job better. Remember two of the current melee DPS jobs already carry the Asian theme very well (MNK, NIN), why should there not be a Tank to represent that culture as well? Were there no brave people to go straight into harms way and take the most risk?

I really don't even see the point of adding a new class/job in general. We basically have enough jobs to fill all the major roles needed, with the way the game is designed adding a new tank or healer won't add much. We basically have all the healing we need, this is why astro seems so lackluster. As far as tanks go the 3 we have cover everything that would be needed and anymore would be overkill at this point.

Adding another DPS job doesn't make much sense either seeing as we have basically all forms a DPS job can really take in game already, between DoTs, burst damage, ect. Anything new at this point is just going to seem lackluster, there isn't a niche that another job can fill to really add something to the game. This is why hybrids, like what astro was trying to be(High risk rng buffer with some heals)didn't work out and ended up as a clone of whm.

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Originally Posted by Alacran

Out of curiosity, how does it more sense for a Tank to use black and white magic of the Red Mage, but not use light to medium armor of a Samurai?

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My Opinion: I feel like SE doesn't want most DPS to use Healing Abilities to the point of not relying of the healer as much. While MNK and ACN can be cross-classed for Physick and Second Wind, they still seem rather weak (and one of one only affects themselves). MCH can't access either. There is also a 3rd healing move they can access, Mercy Stroke but in addition to being a self heal, is also a situational one. MNK where Second wind comes from, has Mantra which only increases a healer Spell's effect, not those from abilities.

In comparison, while not as much as a healer, natch. Tanks at least have more ways of healing (Mostly WAR). All three tanks can use WAR's Bloodbath and Mercy Stroke. WAR has in addition, Equilibrium and Thrill of Battle. PLD also has access to Cure, Raise and their own healing spell Clemency. DRK only has Souleater, which is more inline to a DPS' average amount of healing skills. But the fact WAR exists is proof that SE is more willing to let Tanks have more self-sufficiency than DPS (bar Arcanist, but I think that is one of the factors that caused them to deem it a mistake)

Now lets look at Red Mage. They are proficient with the sword, have Offensive Black and White Magic and have healing White Magic. They are more sufficient then other offensive casters. In addition that means if they are a DPS and do not have Aero, Stone and Water, that means that the they are less likely to live up to the Magic aspect of the Red Mage

As for the "light to medium armor" of a samurai. Know what else uses that kind of armor? The Dragoon, which in this game is not only a melee DPS, but is only considered Tanks in the context of floors and jokes. Plus SE has set of precedent of not making armor classes excluive to one Job as new jobs are rolled out with MCH. As it stands the light to medium armor of a samurai will put them in the same case as a DRG if they are a DPS.

As for why people want SAM to be a DPS (which is the more likely reason of wanted a RDM tank besides the novelty of a Caster Tank). I presume that they simply find SAM the cooler of the two AND do not want to tank.

Just so we're clear. I'm fine with either being Tanks or DPS (At least as long as RDM at least can use all 6 elements). And the reason I give for RD can lean to it fitting more as a Healer as well.

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Originally Posted by C56

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One word. Variety.

It doesn't really matter if a new job brings nothing majorly new to some people, myself included. Not everyone likes how some classes play, your example of AST being a WHM clone. Even if that is true, I will still play AST over a WHM, just as some will play MCH over BRD.

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Originally Posted by Alacran

Out of curiosity, how does it more sense for a Tank to use black and white magic of the Red Mage, but not use light to medium armor of a Samurai?



Lastly, my comment " a little work was all that's needed" was in error, more apt would be the Olympic level mental gymnastics people come up with to set RDM as a Tank, while the Asian equivalent of the knight can do the Job better. Remember two of the current melee DPS jobs already carry the Asian theme very well (MNK, NIN), why should there not be a Tank to represent that culture as well? Were there no brave people to go straight into harms way and take the most risk?

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I have no issue with SAM being DPS or Tank (Though most people want SAM and RDM to be DPS, as there's no sword DPS currently)
Also Yoshida thinks Samurai isnt a good name for a tank, but would instead change it to something like Rounin. (Like how he changed THF to ROG) He feels its not very "Protective/guardian" like.

But simply put, I'd like it if RDM didnt have a soul stone, but instead had 3 items that swap its role. (Healer, DPS, tank)
If we cant have that, then I look at RDM needing to do 3 things, for me to consider it close to RDM, while fitting our current system.
(1) Needs to melee to some extent. (Usually people make it a healer, and doing so would kill its melee potential)
(2) Needs to heals. (Giving potent heals to a DPS can cause some serious imbalance issues, looking at the nerfs to SMN to prevent it from being too good with heals. Also, in the hardest content, a lot of players need every GCD to be spent on DPS, not heals. Which also kills its healing potential. Look at how ppl get mad at SMNs doing battle rez in savage)
(3) Needs to have ranged Black Magic attacks. (Currently all 3 roles have ranged attacks or spells.)

Double cast, and quick cast are what RDM is also known for, but that's not about a role really.

Now of the 3 roles, the only one that forces a ranged character to melee, is Tank. (If you're tanking, mobs come to you, so you cant just range mobs)
Looking at DRKs unmend, you can have ranged spells for pulling/threat/dmg.

Now, of all 3 roles, which melee can still heal, while still being its role? PLD, DRK, and WAR.

Lastly, a Tank can switch to a "DPS stance" which does nearly as much dmg as a DPS does.

In the end, imo, RDM should be a Tank, if it's to be forced into a role.

otherwise it's going to be like the monstrosity SMN/SCH are, and be nothing like their class identity.

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Originally Posted by C56

I really don't even see the point of adding a new class/job in general. We basically have enough jobs to fill all the major roles needed, with the way the game is designed adding a new tank or healer won't add much. We basically have all the healing we need, this is why astro seems so lackluster. As far as tanks go the 3 we have cover everything that would be needed and anymore would be overkill at this point.

Adding another DPS job doesn't make much sense either seeing as we have basically all forms a DPS job can really take in game already, between DoTs, burst damage, ect. Anything new at this point is just going to seem lackluster, there isn't a niche that another job can fill to really add something to the game. This is why hybrids, like what astro was trying to be(High risk rng buffer with some heals)didn't work out and ended up as a clone of whm.

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You look at new classes as needing to bring something new to their role/contribution to the group.
But for some people, none of the classes have a fun play style for them.

Sometimes a different playstyle, with the same abilities, helps make something fun.

But to your example, I've noticed they didnt try to mess with anything too new with the 3 classes. They said they had a hard time getting them done in time, so I assume they just wanted to speed things up, and pick the safe route of "Take a base job, and add something on top of it."

Example being AST is WHM/SCH with cards on top.
DRK is PLD, with off the GCDs/MP management mechanics.

NIN on the other hand had the Mudra system, which feels much more different than other classes, and its shorter GCD is a good alternative to the MNK playstyle.

For myself, I love armored characters, I love tanking, and I love 2hand swords.

So I tried DRK, and loved its playstyle. (I liked PLD, but wanted more off the GCDs, and some sort of resource management, with less enmity management)
And what do you know, DRK was exactly what I wanted!

But so many of my friends cant find a class they like. (Just as I cant find a DPS I like. I can tolerate DRG and NIN, but hate BLM and SMN) So they end up quiting, because nothing feels right to them. (One of them only plays casters, and only if a good portion of their spells are instants, which in this game is a heavy NO! So they just left for another MMO.)

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

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I can accept many of the very valid points brought up by both parties here, as Dark Knight can "cast" many of it's spells immediately, I feel it leads to a very dynamic and satisfying play style. I was one of the many who at first disliked the idea (but grudgingly accepted even then) it being a Tank, as of today it is my main job and one that I absolutely love.

The idea of Red Mage being a DPS very similar to DRK, to me is not a bad idea, neither is the Samurai as a Tank following the FFT skill set (Draw Out/ Iaido) (tweaked of course for FFXIV). However i truly think we may be on the verge of a battle system change that may introduce skill/ talent trees allowing us to choose roles within jobs, and consolidated skills/traits to help with skill bloat (not certain it's good thing tbh). Mind you this is only my opinion, I have seen no evidence that this is what to expect from 4.0.

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Originally Posted by Alacran

skill/ talent trees

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i agree adding skill trees make everyone a little more happy like all they want drk and war become dps for example, but the skill trees in any game make a lot of imbalance issues making to the devs waste a lot of time in balance the jobs and not to mention that decrese for sure the tank population making 2 of the 3 most wanted tanks become a regular dps, i dont see skill trees in this game viable with all the jobs they want to add, if ffxiv have only 6-8 jobs then yes for sure, ¿but with all he can add? poor the devs how have to balance that.