Rank cap increase every 1-2 years discussion thread

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Originally Posted by Sol_Aureus

But getting gear IS character progression. I guess since XI had gear swaps, I almost always wanted something from some endgame event because it was the best for that slot for a specific task. I had an MP set, a summoning magic skill set, a blood pact timer - set, pet atk/acc set, perpetuation - set... And even without gear swaps, in XIV I'm going to want a few sets for specific situations. If the level cap stays constant for a long time, it allows players more options for things to do at endgame, and a lot more options for gear.

Like I've said, as long as previous gear/events aren't rendered obsolete by level caps, i'm prefectly fine with them.

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getting gear usually doesnt require you to play any one class, and only lasts for a small time each period. FFXI was full of people who loved a certain job, but never got to play it, or very rarely.
you want to get the best knuckles in the game? well come to dynamis as a blm or a rdm.
want that hax lance for your dragoon, well best way is to bio 3 that mob on rdm and run around the rock for an hour.

for equipment improving to be a good form of progression, it needs to require you to play the class you enjoy to get or improve said equipment. and honestly even equipment will get old, Im going to want new skills eventually.

In FFXIV, I would like a system with one, or perhaps a few, quick level cap increases but where a stable level cap is eventually reached. I thought the FFXI system bringing the level cap from 50 to 75 was done well. I think players were aware those changes were happening relatively quickly and none of the gear before then was overly time consuming to acquire.

The issue with level cap increases, as the OP pointed out, isn't with the actual level of the players, it's with the associated impact on gear acquired over the years. I prefer new/better gear added to MMOs over a relatively long time. Gear that is more easily attained when your character (and linkshell's players) are outfitted with up-to-date gear. That way, your previous gear doesn't feel useless but at the same time providing new challenges and goals to strive for. I think FFXI could have done a better job of introducing gear that replaced or upgraded enduring elite pieces. Relics, ridills, adaberks, etc. were far too good for far too long and any sense of new achievement was lost once those were attained because incoming gear was largely inferior or, at best, a lateral move (usually inferior).

On the other extreme is the mindset of an MMO like WoW. It's not that the level cap increases come too fast but that the new gear absolutely smashes previous sets. The most common rank 71-79 gear introduced after a level cap increase was better than the most elite rank 70 gear players spent a year or more getting before that same level cap increase. That is insanely frustrating. Essentially, you end up skipping over mountains of content all for the newly introduced expansion. And that the newest of players were right on par with the most seasoned veterans after an expansion because they all quickly grabbed the better, common gear and then worked towards the elite pieces. Maybe that's what designers and developers are striving for, but it's not to my taste.

So while both system have their ups and downs, I would like to see a system closer resembling FFXI's system (but improving upon the introduction of new gear that actually outperforms old gear). That is, a relatively long and stable rise to a set level cap, where gear introduced is a modest improvement on already-existing elite pieces. And that the new content is tackled more efficiently with characters that have mastered previous content (and are appropriately geared because of that).

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Originally Posted by Physic

getting gear usually doesnt require you to play any one class, and only lasts for a small time each period. FFXI was full of people who loved a certain job, but never got to play it, or very rarely.
you want to get the best knuckles in the game? well come to dynamis as a blm or a rdm.
want that hax lance for your dragoon, well best way is to bio 3 that mob on rdm and run around the rock for an hour.

for equipment improving to be a good form of progression, it needs to require you to play the class you enjoy to get or improve said equipment. and honestly even equipment will get old, Im going to want new skills eventually.

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That's more of a community problem then a mechanics problem as sadly human nature is the only truly possible way to draw that line between helping a friend in need, and pure collective greed. FF11 was overly community sensitive, but it's almost a strength at times then a hinderance.

And considering trying the opposite, only made it much worse then FF11 ever could, like WoW. WoW you didn't just have to be a job, you had to be a l33t job, with hundreds of competition, for a just as low random drop rate. And that's all you ever did.

Don't think it's fixable in any way. The best alternative so far is FtP MMOs where everyone is so into jaded, it becomes too sensitive of a topic for anyone to argue about.

After all this is not a Single Player game. It is at its core competitive.

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Originally Posted by Reika

I just looked to the left at a newly implemented forum feature is all....

Anywho, I don't believe thinking FFXIV can become great is any kind of illusion. If you're so sure it is going to fail and never produce for the players, just don't bother with it and spend your time with currently successful MMO's. Its like you're working for a rival company hoping the game fails or something.

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Completely unrealistic daydreaming, but whatever. I can sprout serval dozen proverbs but it's pretty obvious at this point, FF14 is not going to be the blockbuster they wanted it to be. We can all sing the miracle patch song.

And I assume you mean my character link....wow...just wow...ever consider...why besides massive conspiracy theory?

I hope they put level caps on content and make the gear we get from old content either up-gradable or allow us to turn it into rare materia we can use on gear from new content.

They could also bring back gear swap but a lot of people on the forums have shown they don't want gear swap.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

I think it is. Yes, you've got the best in slot gear from this area with monsters that are lower level. Then your character goes to an area that's more dangerous and has better rewards. It's linear character progression.

Some will be irked, of course. People get emotionally attached to their items/characters. But what would the player response be if that Weathered Tunic +100 didn't exist and they already had a Kirin's Osode? If they already have the best in game, and future expansions won't give any better, what do they have to look forward to?

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You're right. And it's unfortunate that grinding is the end all be all of MMORPGs these days.

Related because this is how I feel about this.

I liked ffxi's cap,(CoP era, even ToAU a bit). I want that again.
Even FFXI isn't like FFXI anymore...

Most important Quote in the link:

"I don't think that anyone in his right mind truly feels that poor people (or any people) should be denied the ability to play games. What I am saying is that if you are too "time-poor" to play MMOs, the game isn't the part of the equation that needs to change."

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Originally Posted by Brotech

Related because this is how I feel about this.

I liked ffxi's cap,(CoP era, even ToAU a bit). I want that again.
Even FFXI isn't like FFXI anymore...

Most important Quote in the link:

"I don't think that anyone in his right mind truly feels that poor people (or any people) should be denied the ability to play games. What I am saying is that if you are too "time-poor" to play MMOs, the game isn't the part of the equation that needs to change."

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problem with this belief is, mmo just means massive multiplayer online, it doesnt have to be a time sink to do that, and their is a market to hit that doesnt want it to be. Im not saying hardcore time sink games should not exist, but its foolish to think that any game that involves intereacting with a large number of people online has to be time sink heavy.

You just need a game that fits your niche, maybe the problem is the niche isnt profitable enough, i dont know the numbers, but if there is a market, someone will eventually make the game, maybe it should be you.

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Originally Posted by Brotech

Related because this is how I feel about this.

I liked ffxi's cap,(CoP era, even ToAU a bit). I want that again.
Even FFXI isn't like FFXI anymore...

Most important Quote in the link:

"I don't think that anyone in his right mind truly feels that poor people (or any people) should be denied the ability to play games. What I am saying is that if you are too "time-poor" to play MMOs, the game isn't the part of the equation that needs to change."

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Most important quote:

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In my opinion, most old-school MMOers pine for the good old days for a much less nefarious reason: They liked having more options. Put another way, the gameplay was simply more diverse, and that has nothing to do with filtering anyone out. <. . .> MMOs are -- or used to be -- virtual worlds; <. . .> Unfortunately, complexity, commitment, and immersion are four-letter words to the new breed of MMO player, and as a result, developers are following the money towards simplicity and missing features (wherefore art thou housing, crafting, and really any sort of gameplay that doesn't revolve around heavily instanced homicide).

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It really is a shame the Vanguard failed.

Hi Sol,

Great topic and some good points made in this thread from a lot of people.

I agree that I don't want to see our best gear (that we spent a meaningful amount of time getting) get eradicated / outdated with every Rank Cap Increase, if it's happening at the pace Yoshida-san is thinking about (1 - 2 years).

Two key points being brought up in this thread are:

1. New Content / Keeing the Game Fresh
   
   
2. Don't Make Our Hardest Earned Gear Obsolete Too Fast

Regarding "New Content," I think we can have interesting, meaningful New Content that doesn't involve raising the Level Cap (some Level Increases are fine over the life of this game, but not too often). Here are some quick ideas for New Content without Raising Level Cap:

• Pace the Release of "Full Sets" of Gear: Perhaps the first set of New Content allows players to get ~2 pieces of very rare Armor for their Job. Pace the release of another big "New Content Patch" (months later) with 2 more pieces of that Set. And so on. Just with some Pacing, SE can still have goals and meaningful content without releasing too much at once, to keep the Players interested for longer than just a few weeks.
• Alternate Sets of Gear: Without a need to raise the Level Cap, you can also eventually release (and pace out) a 2nd set of Advanced Gear that could benefit your Job in a different way (e.g., a Max Healing Set vs. a Debuff Set vs. a Magic Damage Set, etc.; for DoW, High Accuracy vs. High Damage Set, etc.)
• Rare Crafter and Gatherer Sets: If FF XIV really considers Crafters and Gatherers as full Classes, there could be new content / challenges that would ultimately yield Rare Crafting or Gathering Armor Sets or Tools.
• Engaging, Meaningful Story: Despite some issues with Chains of Promathea, I felt their Cinematics and Story were outstanding and entertaining. It made me feel like I was playing a "Final Fantasy" RPG. :)
  
  New content doesn't have to be all about Gear, and I know some people hate Story (and skip all Cinematics and Dialogue), but some people *do* enjoy entertaining Stories and Cinematics in games. This is another bit of "New Content" that is worth doing without raising the Level Cap.
• New Regions of Eorzea Unlocked: This would be New Content that you have to earn to unlock access to. I remember the first time getting up to Sky and seeing how wonderful it was up there (like Laputa: Castle in the Sky!). Or getting to Sea for the first time. There's a feeling of satisfaction and happiness in gaining access to new Areas. The new Areas could have regions for ranking up at all level ranges as well (for you to use on New Classes and Jobs).
• New Weaponskills: There could be New Content where you have to conquer an area and prove your worth to a Master Guildsman of your Guild (Maat?! :P), and you can eventually unlock and earn a New Weaponskill.
• New Traits: Same for Traits. There's a lot of possibility of New Traits you can earn and unlock driven via New Content.
• Rare Stat Increases (Something Like Merits from XI): Instead of just grinding on anything, we could have New Dungeons / Areas that are filled with certain enemies you must defeat to eventually gain a "Blessing from your Deity or Archon" which grants you a rare Stat Increase of your choice (repeatable up to a limit).
• Super Hard Dungeon / Area. This is one thing I think games should take advantage of more: For everyone that reaches Max Cap, and gets Rare Gear... where's their "playground"? What do they use their fully buffed out character on (besides helping others get their rare gear (which is fine))? It would be nice to have a Super Hard Dungeon where you might be able to barely progress initially, but over the course of earning the Stat Increases and Rare Gear and New Weaponskills and Traits, and with more experience and developing proper Strategies, you could progress further and further until you could finally clear it.
  
  The reward? It could be whatever SE deems necessary. A great finish to a Side Storyline. One super rare item. A Title. Whatever it would be it would also be about the journey through it. Being able to have that sense of accomplishment of beating one of the hardest challenges in the game.

In regards to point #2, Obsolete Gear, I think some good points brought up would be:

• Alternate Complementary Sets of Gear: If a Level Cap Increase and/or New Content came with Alternate / Different Sets of Gear (one is High Accuracy, another is High Damage, or High Crit Rate, etc.), that would prevent your hard-earned 1st Rare Set from getting obsolete.
• Upgradeable Gear: Much like Relic Weapons, if a Level Cap / New Patch / Expansion allowed your rarest Gear to be Upgradeable, then you still keep your attachment to it, and it goes towards something even better (so your time wasn't wasted).

I think that if done right, Square could pace out the release of Gear Sets, provide Alternate, Useful Gear Sets and/or allow Upgrading of Gear (via being Materia-ized or just upgrading like Relics), and provide interesting, fresh content so that even if they did do it every "1 - 2 years", they could allow your rarest gear to "survive" through ~2 or 3 Big, New Content Patches / Expansions, meaning you could still have your rare gear (in one form or another) for a solid ~3 - 6 years without it being obsolete.

Seeing how Patch 20.0 would be releasing the jobs and they said Bard but did not say the other two missing job for the class i would say. Patch: 20.0 would be releasing when this game become 1year so that could mean releasing 1-2 new class/jobs and rise in the level cap to 55 or 60 maybe even releasing of Dark knight.