History repeats itself: Time for the Great Archer Nerf of 2011

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

So what you just said is that you use an inferior DD to DD 90% of the time just because it could tank if the person really tanking isn't tanking.

Who "off tanks" any more? Is this 2006 and we're trying to set up a trick attack or something? Sooner or later good players will not let their tanks die enough to justify your pugilist being there. In fact, they already have.

When that happens, pugilist becomes just a gimp DD. You're probably levelling thaumaturge so you can tank better than pugilist can and DD better than pugilist can.

Either way, with the job you already have (archer) and the job you're going to have (thaumaturge) your pugilist has no point. There are only three jobs in the game. Gladiator, archer, and thaumaturge.

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Back before they nerfed the hell out of NMs you needed multiple tanks for Hotpox and Mosshorn. Still do to keep the extras off healers.

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Originally Posted by Xzen

Back before they nerfed the hell out of NMs you needed multiple tanks for Hotpox and Mosshorn.

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And you were equally useless in that situation since a gladiator is a better tank than you. No one's going to let you off-tank something IMPORTANT. Hell, I could off-tank a goat on conjurer.

Therefore, your pugilist "eva tank" is no merit to pugilists. No one cares. That's *never* why you are invited. You are invited to DD. If you are not as good a DD as the archer, and you get AoE'd, slowed, paralyzed, petrified...what's the point in you?

None.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

And you were equally useless in that situation since a gladiator is a better tank than you. No one's going to let you off-tank something IMPORTANT. Hell, I could off-tank a goat on conjurer.

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I could easily fill the role of tank on my pug against NMs back when they were a bit harder. Yes GLD is the best Tank but they are not near as good as any of the DD.

I don't play archer, I've leveled it up though here and there for fun. They buy arrows, high damage is the trade off for having to buy/make arrows in my opinion. Its why my pussy dart does pussy damage compared to an archers basic attack because I don't buy arrows or use mp for it.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Archer needs to be the worst-offensive attack job.

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Just no. This is a terrible narrow-sighted conclusion which shows no interest whatsoever in making the combat system actually fun. Practically speaking, every MMO is going to require a somewhat mindless high-damage class or you're going to alienate a very large group of people. Let these people cling to damage meters and feel good about themselves. Meanwhile, give everyone else more important things to do (stuns, offtanking, debuffs, etc.) to supplement their damage output. If done correctly, you'll end up with groups that fill in pure dps/archers LAST after they've taken care of the critical survivability roles.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

And you were equally useless in that situation since a gladiator is a better tank than you. No one's going to let you off-tank something IMPORTANT. Hell, I could off-tank a goat on conjurer.

Therefore, your pugilist "eva tank" is no merit to pugilists. No one cares. That's *never* why you are invited. You are invited to DD. If you are not as good a DD as the archer, and you get AoE'd, slowed, paralyzed, petrified...what's the point in you?

None.

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Invited to what exactly? Back when getting to rank 50 was hard and we did raptor parties I was tanking 90% of the time. People sent me invites just for that purpose. It was the same for NMs.

Heh.

Alright, how about a simple solution for "tank and spank" mechanics then. Every class except archer gets a party buff which is unique to their own class. That way, almost every class gets brought to parties, and only the most competitive members of each class are brought. Boring, but simple.

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Originally Posted by Raikki

Just no. This is a terrible narrow-sighted conclusion which shows no interest whatsoever in making the combat system actually fun. Practically speaking, every MMO is going to require a somewhat mindless high-damage class or you're going to alienate a very large group of people. Let these people cling to damage meters and feel good about themselves. Meanwhile, give everyone else more important things to do (stuns, offtanking, debuffs, etc.) to supplement their damage output. If done correctly, you'll end up with groups that fill in pure dps/archers LAST after they've taken care of the critical survivability roles.

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Haha you don't need to stun an ability that only hits your tank because everyone else is out of range. When all your members are archers there are only two critical roles. The tank and the tank healer.

Which is why FFXIV only has 3 real jobs. The other ones are useless.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Haha you don't need to stun an ability that only hits your tank because everyone else is out of range. When all your members are archers there are only two critical roles. The tank and the tank healer.

Which is why FFXIV only has 3 real jobs. The other ones are useless.

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You seriously can't envision NMs having abilities that need to be interrupted even if it only hits the tank? Have you actually played other MMOs?

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Haha you don't need to stun an ability that only hits your tank because everyone else is out of range. When all your members are archers there are only two critical roles. The tank and the tank healer.

Which is why FFXIV only has 3 real jobs. The other ones are useless.

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/facepalm
in before "nerfbat it to the ground"

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Originally Posted by Verecund

Heh.

Alright, how about a simple solution for "tank and spank" mechanics then. Every class except archer gets a party buff which is unique to their own class. That way, almost every class gets brought to parties, and only the most competitive members of each class are brought. Boring, but simple.

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We've already tried this. Feint-era. Failed. The classes are inherently so unequal the the provided buffs would have to be completely ridiculous. Double the crit rate of the team with marauder. 1.5x TP gain with a lancer. Stupid, broken buffs.

But you know what the players would end up doing with it? They'd pick the best one and invite one of them. So in effect, the party goes from:

Gladiator
Archer
Archer
Archer
Archer
Archer
Archer
Thaumaturge

To:

Gladiator
Archer
Archer
Archer
Archer
Archer
Token Marauder
Thaumaturge.

Oh, and the marauder needs to stand in the corner and not do anything. He's just there to boost the archers.

Which wouldn't be an issue of the encounters themselves are balanced, as they should be, as everything else should be, etc. etc.

But, simply nerfing archer damage to have slightly less damage just because they are out of range (though logically sound) is somewhat of a flat change, in that the Archer would still have little real engagement in fight mechanics (unlike other classes that have to stay within a certain range).

Although, maybe something along the lines of a slight damage nerf IN ADDITION to a range nerf (as well as having abilities to increase range for a limited amount of time) would be slightly better design in that the player would have to engage actively in order to better help their healers out, or avoid AoE debuffs, etc.

(Although I still hate the above because it simply dumbs alot of things down into a "mana war", which is okay for some encounters but just flat out boring when it is monotonously the focus of every fight).

thing here to realize, is that archers got a couple hidden buffs in this game, without them realizing it.

The economy changed, a lot due to leves being the best exp, and people sharing them all the time. People now have more money than they know what to do with.

Also they increased the amounts of arrows made with a synth by 10, they alos increased the amount of items you get when making the items to make arrows, the increased the supply of crafting arrows by a lot

They increased your stacks from 99 to 999, this means you can carry way more arrows, you pay less of a price inventory wise, and you need never fear running out of arrows in combat again

these combined to make arrows almost a non issue anymore, back when each synth was 3 arrows, required glue, and horns and what not, back when archers needed people to hold arrows for them, and when spammin quick nock and multi shot and volley might actually depelete your arrows in a long fight, then maybe more dmg was justified, maybe, but not anymore, at the very least you must admit it shouldnt be as powerful as it used to be, because it used to be a lot more expensive, and you think expensive equals dmg.

That aside you cant weaken archers too much because although they take no dmg, most healers would rather have a more effective DD and let thier aoe heals be put to more use, than take someone who can only damage for less

The answer is lower their dmg a bit, or the skills that give them that dmg effectiveness, and increase thier utility. They are supposed to be the person who can effect battle, they need thier situational arrows, arrows that can lower defense, blind mobs, change a weakness etc lower emity etc, they should be the long range dudes who can alter the course of battle even more than lancers, because they can do it from a distant position.

The other solution, and probably the better one, is to actually use party battle mechanics, Boss NMs need to hang out with each other, mobs of different types need to hang out. Some monsters should have more hatred for ranged attackers, or healers than others. Break the trinity down, or at least make it more complicated by including multiple mobs, and new tactics shine. Then your defense actually matters, you may actually have to stop shooting when A NMs pet eyes go crazy if someone shoots thier boss. you might actually need 2 healers, or someone subbing heals, Or the Dps provided while tanking on a marauder or pugilist might be worthwhile to burn down lesser enemies, lancers heavy trammel aoe might be useful, and the accuracy check for subbing it might be worthwhile.

These types of fights will be more entertaining, and use more of our skill sets. This is the type of things that need to happen imo

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Haha you don't need to stun an ability that only hits your tank because everyone else is out of range. When all your members are archers there are only two critical roles. The tank and the tank healer.

Which is why FFXIV only has 3 real jobs. The other ones are useless.

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Didnt you say to look to the future? i think we're all hoping for more dynamic fights to come where we're required to do more than tank and spank. Maybe we'll have some encounters where AE dmg will be flying all over the place requiring ranged fighters to change position often. This would then make archers do less damage, and if they do get nerfed then they would be worthless to bring to the fight. Hopefully SE stays true to the word and brings very unique fights to the game where some fights maybe have archers being top DPS, where as some fights may have pgl or other melee being top DPS. That being said, some classes are already more effective at fighting certain things due to different damage types. Also, thats what makes this game great and the armory system fun, your not locked into a certain job or class. if you spend the time you can rank up which ever class you need and bring w/e is most effective to the fight. There will always be one role doing more dmg on a fight than another, why bring the less effective class. lets say we have big giant super strong crab NM, we're gonna see a giant group of pgl beating on the NM, who cares if they are in range of AE, i dont know any healer who wont switch his heals to AE, from there its just positioning, you can have one healer healing everyone taking dmg.

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Originally Posted by Verecund

Which wouldn't be an issue of the encounters themselves are balanced, as they should be, as everything else should be, etc. etc.


Sigh :/

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Dude, if they could fix it your way they would have. Years ago. There's nothing you can do. Ranged attackers are inherently broken and imbalanced. The only viable solution is to nerf their damage OUTPUT. Period. There is no other solution. If you give other players party boosts, the archers will simply pick up a token player and continue shooting things at range with immunity.

At this point, this is such a predictable discussion that if there is ANYONE in this thread who didn't see my last post coming as a response to "give jobs party boosts", they just need to play more games before arguing.

There are three jobs in FFXIV, with the potential to be a 4th.
Gladiator
Thaumaturge
Archer
And anyone who makes the remaining archers better even with one less archer.

This is the disgusting reality many of you all demand with your laissez-faire attitudes. It is the only outcome unless you nerf archers' OUTPUT.

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Originally Posted by Shampooo

Didnt you say to look to the future? i think we're all hoping for more dynamic fights to come where we're required to do more than tank and spank.

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This is the MMO genre. We're at maintenance. There is nothing new under the sun. If these chronic problems with archers haven't been solved in 7 years of trying, they won't be solved unless you do what needs to be done.

Reduce their output. End this nonsense. They don't get slowed. They don't get petrified. They don't get hit. They don't get stunned. They don't get paralyzed. They don't get stomped. They don't get anything. They just keep shooting.

Sorry for the extended edit.

But, there is not just one solution to a last-gen problem, believe it or not.

There is one solution. The one that needs done. The one that always needed done. The only one that shut rangers and their machinations down.

Reduce their output compared to the close-quarter DDs. You cannot solve it any other way. Try. Go ahead. There is no cap on posts that I know of in threads. Now is your chance to do it YOUR way, because I already know my way will work.

The developers have NO IDEA how to fix this problem without doing exactly what I've proposed. Go ahead. If you think you can fix it, fix it. This thread's still open for a reason. Thaumaturge and archer are up on the chopping block as we speak.

Your only solution has been to reduce damage output.

So basically, there will still be fights where everyone rolls archers so that the healers only have to focus on healing the tanks, while the archers can sit safely far away dealing slightly less damage than before. It may take longer, but it is the same essential damn thing that we have now.

The typical industry solution is just make it easier for ranged damage dealers to pull aggro if they dont pace themselves and give them flimsier armor. If they pull hate off the tank boom they're dead within seconds.

Damage dealing typically isnt balanced like "Well they have range so they shouldnt hit as hard as melee classes" its balanced like "Well they have less armor so they should hit harder but will get overwhelmed if they are attacked" this keeps one type of ranged dd from being a flat out better choice than another because of what they can do besides damage deal.


Edit: "There is no other way to solve this problem"

haha are you serious? Nearly every mmo with more than one type of ranged damage dealer had/has this problem, in an industry full of creative minds you really think nobody has come up with different methods?

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Originally Posted by Shampooo

damn shiyo, why'd u let that happen? did anyone find peregrines solution other than just NERF. i dont wanna sort through 42 pages of this crap

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Nope, according to Peregrine there is no other solution than to nerf, because apparently, fixing emnity functions and creating some monsters in tribes capable of Archer-hate is far inferior to cutting up multipliers. Because apparently straight nerfing worked SO well in FFXI which is why it took years of scaling up and down to make Black Mages and Rangers hit a comfortably medium. Oh- and also apparently we don't know enough to assess that this time it's a matter of the mechanics adjusting to the character needs, because apparently it isn't.

I think my sarcasm rank just went up, better nerf it before my wit makes the trolls feel threatened.

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Originally Posted by Verecund

Your only solution has been to reduce damage output.

So basically, there will still be fights where everyone rolls archers so that the healers only have to focus on healing the tanks, while the archers can sit safely far away dealing slightly less damage than before. It may take longer, but it is the same essential damn thing that we have now.

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this is why the solution is to make it so that no one is invincible, and create monster parties that arent as simple to tank as 1 guy does everything, or sleep everything and do it one at a time.
Introduce mobs that get enraged by specific tactics, who are partied with different mobs, make people use the roles effectively.
If you create a class that can do superior damage, but has less defense, it should be in threat of taking dmg
If you create a class that can tank and do damage, your important game situations, should find them doing this
If you create a class that has a wealth aoe abilities, your important game situations should take advantage of this.
If you create a class that has the best single target damge reductions, your important game situations should take advantage of this

Make mobs party battles with different types of monsters, with different enimty biases, and different skill sets. some resistent to sleep with those that are suceptible, some that hate mages, some that hate rangers. A big guy who can do a ton of dmg, and midrange damager all hanging out? Suddenly way more roles, and skill sets are important.
How about NMs whose body parts are actually different mobs, a dragon whose legs wings and body can all attack, and have separate enimity

I'd like to point out that history only suggests a possible future, not predicts an absolute one. Also, since their is a lack of proof on your end Peregrine, as you have yet to bring more than two examples of archers being overpowered, one being under question until further testing is done, the second (3k damage on Dodore) a complete lie (I count ~1200 myself). And finally I'd like to point out that, with all in-game evidence taken into account, archers are not invincible, they can be stunned, paralyzed, sleeped, KO'd, ect... I've seen it happen.

Is there any other evidence you wish to display, sir.

If Archers were nerfed right now to deal damage lower than Pugilist, Marauder, and Lancer then no one would use them.

Why? AoE heals.

Who cares if the melees get hit by AoE? They're gonna get healed when the tank gets healed anyway. Archers would be totally worthless until AoE healing gets nerfed, and then we wait another 3 months for that to get fixed.

There is so much stuff wrong with stats and the current battle system that singling out one thing like Archer being an OP DD is futile. Here is what Yoshida and crew are currently working on:

-Make allocated stats more significant or scrap the system
-Make secondary stats on gear actually do something
-Revamp requirements on equipping gear and abilities
-Add Jobs/specializations/talent trees

These things will eventually be the backbone of class balance. If all that gets done and we still have problems, THEN:

-Nerf archer damage
-Nerf AoE heals
-Nerf emulate
-Nerf THM DoT
-Nerf Shock Spikes
-Buff GLA damage
-Nerf/Buff anything else I'm forgetting

People in this thread are putting way too much emphasis on one thing. If SE just fixes that one thing and nothing else, we're going to have another 3 months - 4 years of worthless archers instead of OP ones. Devs need to be made aware of everything, not just archer damage output. Otherwise, you come across as someone with a personal vendetta against rangers and nothing else.

Wait for the groundwork to be laid then re-address class balance. SE could add something in the new job system that would totally eclipse Archer damage (e.g. haste + march x2 for melees). Oh lordy, just the thought of adding haste into this game sends shivers down my spine. CON-only haste, butthurt THMs, complaints about having to maintain cycles, hahahah.

nerfing aoe heals is a bad idea in a game with party combat, and its the main mechanic of two classes to do aoe

too much nerfing, buff people up

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Originally Posted by kro

People in this thread are putting way too much emphasis on one thing. If SE just fixes that one thing and nothing else, we're going to have another 3 months - 4 years of worthless archers instead of OP ones. Devs need to be made aware of everything, not just archer damage output. Otherwise, you come across as someone with a personal vendetta against rangers and nothing else.

Wait for the groundwork to be laid then re-address class balance. SE could add something in the new job system that would totally eclipse Archer damage (e.g. haste + march x2 for melees). Oh lordy, just the thought of adding haste into this game sends shivers down my spine. CON-only haste, butthurt THMs, complaints about having to maintain cycles, hahahah.

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Well it isn't just that- The thread focuses on the concept of NERFING- or lowering numbers to achieve balance, when this is not a numerical issue but a dynamic one. Most of XIV's problems can be fixed with simple mechanical adjustments- because Pre-Yoshida XIV had the right numbers in the right places, but the wrong dynamics.

Yoshi-P really hasn't told us so much how he plans to mold the game- so much that he plans to do so. What we do know about the future is more along the lines of...
-Auto-Attack
-A specific Job system in addition to the dynamic Discipline system
-Changes to the Stat system/Level and Rank systems
-Job specific equipment in addition to open ended equipments
-More content for all players of all levels (if there are any)

I do agree that this argument is pretty frivolous, though as most of us know that it isn't a threat to gamestate- and some of us are just unwilling to admit it- It seems more along the lines of a class-envy thread

No, if it were class envy I'd just be you. I am not jealous of the kind of player who abuses archer, and never will be. They flit from job to job, breaking everything as they go like children under the recommended toy age.

AoE heals wouldn't keep people from quitting archer. They don't get slowed, slept, paralyzed...they don't get any status afflictions that difficult enemies use because they're out of range.

You be my guest and spam cure III on everyone who'se petrified. See if it helps.

Man, this thread is still going?

Stop feeding the troll!

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Originally Posted by Augury

Well it isn't just that- The thread focuses on the concept of NERFING- or lowering numbers to achieve balance, when this is not a numerical issue but a dynamic one. Most of XIV's problems can be fixed with simple mechanical adjustments- because Pre-Yoshida XIV had the right numbers in the right places, but the wrong dynamics.

Yoshi-P really hasn't told us so much how he plans to mold the game- so much that he plans to do so. What we do know about the future is more along the lines of...
-Auto-Attack
-A specific Job system in addition to the dynamic Discipline system
-Changes to the Stat system/Level and Rank systems
-Job specific equipment in addition to open ended equipments
-More content for all players of all levels (if there are any)

I do agree that this argument is pretty frivolous, though as most of us know that it isn't a threat to gamestate- and some of us are just unwilling to admit it- It seems more along the lines of a class-envy thread

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This +1

I think he mad because CON is one of the least useful classes at the moment. He's saying ranged jobs in mmos are flawed but wont apply the same to his own class.

All the people with the jealous argument again. You all really do have nothing left to say. Totally shot down.
I'm not jealous of any of you all, or your job. Clearly. You can nerf conjurer to well below the output of archer because I can heal and perform sleeps, cast remote AoEs, and remove status effects.

Watch that marauder level in my profile creep up. You'll also see archer pop up there shortly. I'm not jealous of you. I am you, without the affect and bias. I truly only care about total balance. You, on the other hand, are just a biased fan of your job. Look at all the archers. Just like rangers.

Won't keep me from playing you. Or calling for your nerf even when I do.

Yall are just finished. Archer's going to be reduced in power, and this was your only chance to stop it. And you just sat there for 50 pages and made the same fail arguments that rangers did as if that was going to change the outcome.

Rack em up.

it's interesting you think a conjurer should have a low damage output. classically a mage class archetype has always been a high damage dealing class. If your arugment is they should do less damage because they are at range and avoid AE, then the encounters are what needs changing, which is what they are hopefuly doing. As far as your suggesting to dealing with how to nerf archers, you still havent stated anything specific of how exaclty to do this. plainly stating they need lower damage output isnt a solution, and just an umbrella statement of your view in general.

Yawnz.

I am guessing you are under the impression that a lot of thread pages mean SE will do whatever the OP says. LOL@U!

I might have believed on your concern for balance if you had started the nerf QQ on THM instead of archer. Anyway...


I want you to TROLL me as hard as you can!

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

All the people with the jealous argument again. You all really do have nothing left to say. Totally shot down.
I'm not jealous of any of you all, or your job. Clearly. You can nerf conjurer to well below the output of archer because I can heal and perform sleeps, cast remote AoEs, and remove status effects.

Watch that marauder level in my profile creep up. You'll also see archer pop up there shortly. I'm not jealous of you. I am you, without the affect and bias. I truly only care about total balance. You, on the other hand, are just a biased fan of your job. Look at all the archers. Just like rangers.

Won't keep me from playing you. Or calling for your nerf even when I do.

Yall are just finished. Archer's going to be reduced in power, and this was your only chance to stop it. And you just sat there for 50 pages and made the same fail arguments that rangers did as if that was going to change the outcome.

Rack em up.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

All the people with the jealous argument again. You all really do have nothing left to say. Totally shot down.
I'm not jealous of any of you all, or your job. Clearly. You can nerf conjurer to well below the output of archer because I can heal and perform sleeps, cast remote AoEs, and remove status effects.

Watch that marauder level in my profile creep up. You'll also see archer pop up there shortly. I'm not jealous of you. I am you, without the affect and bias. I truly only care about total balance. You, on the other hand, are just a biased fan of your job. Look at all the archers. Just like rangers.

Won't keep me from playing you. Or calling for your nerf even when I do.

Yall are just finished. Archer's going to be reduced in power, and this was your only chance to stop it. And you just sat there for 50 pages and made the same fail arguments that rangers did as if that was going to change the outcome.

Rack em up.

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Nope.avi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvdf5n-zI14

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

All the people with the jealous argument again. You all really do have nothing left to say. Totally shot down.
I'm not jealous of any of you all, or your job. Clearly. You can nerf conjurer to well below the output of archer because I can heal and perform sleeps, cast remote AoEs, and remove status effects.

Watch that marauder level in my profile creep up. You'll also see archer pop up there shortly. I'm not jealous of you. I am you, without the affect and bias. I truly only care about total balance. You, on the other hand, are just a biased fan of your job. Look at all the archers. Just like rangers.

Won't keep me from playing you. Or calling for your nerf even when I do.

Yall are just finished. Archer's going to be reduced in power, and this was your only chance to stop it. And you just sat there for 50 pages and made the same fail arguments that rangers did as if that was going to change the outcome.

Rack em up.

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So your healing needs to be nerfed or you need to heal within AoE range of the mobs. Again your solution simply isn't viable. You might as well be asking them to remove ARC from the game completely. You can reduce their DD but you need to give them some value in a PT with support type abilities. Why? Because by taking away their top DD status when it's the only thing they can do you have made the class worthless. You need to have it do something.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

The source is our shell carpenters who can't make enough bows, while bhuj's, lances, and knuckles all remain unsold. A R40 bow still costs 300k. Know what a R40 axe costs? 40. If that. Why? Everyone's an archer. No one's a marauder.

If you don't see the world becoming a generic archerfest...no wonder this thread comes as a shock.

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Are you out of your mind? I don't know what market wards you are looking at but I know for a fact that we are on the same server... lol
mrd 36 weapon = 150k proof
arc 43 weapon = 150k proof

Just because some weapons are easier to make than others, therefore selling for a lower price, does not mean that people are choosing one job over another. There are many parts that go into crafting a bow.
For example, the reason why there are so many iron/engraved bhuj's on the wards is because: 1. they are so easy to make. 2. everyone is trying to HQ them, therefor lots of NQ's on the wards that people are trying to dump off their retainers.
I am by no means an archer "fanboy", my archer is level 15. But you are not going to win this battle Peregrine, sorry to dissapoint.

I thought this thread would end after post #376 but I guess not.

Peregrine,

Your arguement of ARC should do less dmg than all the other DD's because they can attack out of aoe range is invalid for several reasons. Some of them have already been stated in this thread. And as far as the AOE thing, all of the DD can position themselves and keep away from those aoe attacks from most of the mobs in this game. And view that post # I mentioned above for the buying the arrows thing.

But if SE did want to nerf ARC some they could do it by having certain mobs have more resistance to projectile dmg. That way there would be fights where leaders would want to involve other DD.

But you wouldn't want to make it to where ARC would be useless or anything. Even in fighting those certain mobs.

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Originally Posted by Joe_Cool

I thought this thread would end after post #376 but I guess not.

Peregrine,

Your arguement of ARC should do less dmg than all the other DD's because they can attack out of aoe range is invalid for several reasons. Some of them have already been stated in this thread. And as far as the AOE thing, all of the DD can position themselves and keep away from those aoe attacks from most of the mobs in this game. And view that post # I mentioned above for the buying the arrows thing.

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Nope. Meleers will never be able to get out of the close-range AoE debilitations and damage of key mobs, because that's a staple of challenging fights in MMOs. Your arguments completely fail to justify why you deserve to be the top DD and the least-vulnerable one in a fight. Sorry.

None of your points have merit. If you don't repost them again so I can shoot them down again, lord knows someone else will, figuring they're unique and have a new thought to add here.

None of you had anything new to say. You already lost this argument years ago.

Seriously, you're sitting there still arguing about how expensive arrows are. Lol...

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Originally Posted by Xzen

So your healing needs to be nerfed or you need to heal within AoE range of the mobs. Again your solution simply isn't viable. You might as well be asking them to remove ARC from the game completely. You can reduce their DD but you need to give them some value in a PT with support type abilities. Why? Because by taking away their top DD status when it's the only thing they can do you have made the class worthless. You need to have it do something.

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If you can't handle not playing a broken archer, maybe you need to quit instead of archer. Archer will be just fine without the chronic kinds of players who always look for it to be overpowered, or else they whine cry and quit.

There'd be a point for archer in the game. Just not for YOU to play it.

Being the top DD isn't the only thing you can do. You can avoid all AoE damage and debilitations. Sorry. Don't think that's an advantage? That's your ignorance to be fixed, because if you played FFXI from 2002-2007, you honestly can't argue that it's not an advantage unless you're just blatantly oblivious.

Don't make the mistake of posturing that archer would be nothing without YOUR vision of archer governing it. Square Enix already made it clear that if they have to choose between you and a balanced archer, they won't choose you.

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Originally Posted by Shampooo

it's interesting you think a conjurer should have a low damage output. classically a mage class archetype has always been a high damage dealing class. If your arugment is they should do less damage because they are at range and avoid AE, then the encounters are what needs changing, which is what they are hopefuly doing. As far as your suggesting to dealing with how to nerf archers, you still havent stated anything specific of how exaclty to do this. plainly stating they need lower damage output isnt a solution, and just an umbrella statement of your view in general.

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Classically, mages have been stupidly designed in MMOs and thus they run amok at endgame for the same reasons archer classes do.

I have stated exactly how to nerf archers. Cut their damage output by 1/3. Just because your affected and biased opinion doesn't dictate that's valid doesn't mean anyone should listen to you. Why is that not valid? Just because you say so apparenly. I've already told you why it is in fact valid, because 3 archers, generates 33%*3=100% of a phantom meleer. And that argument promptly goes straight over your heads.

I've said that three three times now. I don't know how to say it any clearer to you all.

Would you rather we just ban your ass if you show up with 6 archers in your party at a raid because at that point you've proven yourself a chronic threat to the game's balance? What do you want? As long as there is no functional point in a meleer, you're getting something here. Because you can't handle the responsibility of that imbalance without turning the product to crap just like your forefathers did to FFXI.

So what do you want? "Nothing" isn't an option. You are not mature enough to handle that option. Sooner or later you will ditch as many lancers, pugs, and marauders as you can. When the AoEs get hard. When the paralyze gets too severe. You'll cop out and get your archers on.

To prevent that inevitable failure on your part, you should be nerfed now so you CAN'T fail like that. So how do YOU want it?

My guess is that half of you secretly love the idea of eventually being the in-demand, doted-on job, charging pugs to kill the dragon, telling lancers to go sit in a corner. Telling marauders to go level something useful to endgame if they want in your endgame shells.

Half of you all want that world back, because you know 80% of the game's population will not give in like you and just level whatever broken trash job gets them attention and glory. They WILL sit there as a pugilist and take it as opposed to playing like you. And that makes you all the more in-demand. If SE makes all the meleers your equals, then you're no longer special and in-demand.

That's what most of you really want in archer. You only play ranged attackers in MMOs because ranged attackers always get special consideration and attention in their endgame design.

And that's just a sad reason to play a job. For attention.