Bring Back Kaiten

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

Kaiten added no additional depth to SAM. It was a button that had no nuance. No gray area

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Kaiten made it so you were able to boost all your Weaponskills for 20 Kenki, Shinten is just an attack for 25 Kenki. The Only Problem with Kaiten back then was if the Kaiten buffed Midare didn't crit, which btw could've been address with Kaiten giving crits or with the 6.1 Logic of Auto Crits, giving Direct Hit instead, btw also where is the nuance with Auto Crits?

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

The Only Problem with Kaiten back then was if the Kaiten buffed Midare didn't crit

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Literally irrelevant. Kaiten-era Midare and Shinten were identical in both crit chance and crit multiplier. No process they perform identically will differentiate them.

But yes, given that Kaiten itself added 50% damage, almost identically to a crit, it could have been made a way to guarantee the crit (with crit chance increasing the damage bonus instead, as always) without issue.

(It actually would have reduced the value of Kaiten faintly despite making it feel like more, since you could no longer benefit from multiplicity of Kaiten-crits but one would consistently see the big crit.)

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Yes, actually. These are all "bad" buttons. You're getting close to a core problem with most DPS class designs in FFXIV (and in fact tanks and healers too but in different just thematically similar ways): They are mostly button bloat.

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Find me an MMO where, in the same contexts, one's kit isn't likewise mostly bloat? Heck, by your warrants, that'd be true even of most MOBA's abilities if they were placed in PvE against anything living long enough and/or encounters short enough for waste via overkill not to eventually wipe the party.

I'll agree that XIV's kits are, overall, shallow. In a PvE setting like XIV's, so are WoW's, so are GW2's, so are B&S's, and so even most of even Overwatch's (limited to just 2 rotational abilities from which to draw the bulk of their identity). Striking dummies reduce virtually every kit into either a set rotation or set priority order; the best they can hope for are for the APL (action priority list) to be quite long because of uncontrolled but mitigatable/capitalizable conditions.

Why, then, does XIV's kit tend to feel so much more shallow than the others? Part of it is the lack of available interrelation of kit components by which to leverage a deeper or more varied form of encounter, but prior even to that is... the lack of any such deeper or more varied encounter.

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So yeah, correct, virtually all such buttons are pointless for their respective jobs. And once you take them away, the static rotation exposed beneath the thin veneer shows how utterly simplistic it is, and that in turn shows just why static-rotation-type jobs just don't work well, at least for FFXIV.

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And yet they absolutely have worked for and in XIV... when the encounters themselves offered a constraint notable enough to introduce skill expression in shuffling around what parts remain modular in order to keep more important parts static. Trying to keep a rotation static despite likely or necessary uptime loss and conflicting priorities (say, upon add spawns or in needing to burst down a shield immediately so a necessarily lethal raidwide can be interrupted) involves at least as much cognitive load as adapting to RNG.

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Take for example the core visual/lore/operational identify of Samurai. Casted melee attacks.

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I don't agree that these have ever made or even been alleged to be the core of Samurai identity operationally or in lore. And if visual... see Kaiten.

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they aren't important enough

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They're a huge portion of your damage and the centerpiece of our rotation.

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they are too variable in their placement specifically

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They have been from the start, unless you mean TG. In which case, that's the most leverageably non-fixed part in all of Samurai's gameplay, so...

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They ought to be extremely restrictive moves

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How so? This sounds as vague and likely therefore to end up way off-base, frankly, as your postulations on what Monk themes and gameplay should have been (i.e., nothing like Monk has ever been or intended to be).

And if restriction was something you liked... see Kaiten.

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in fact not being able to do should probably be expected to happen sometimes to account for the burst in power.

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That's effectively asking for the job to be impossible to balance. How else would that whole portion of your damage be far more than its already immense portion and yet the overall kit be balanced around a frequent lack of that portion?

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Instead, Samurai has the same static-rotation GCD flow that autohotkey could play optimally for you, with the same filler oGCD spam as everyone else.

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Because it's in XIV. It's like everyone else in the sense that they striking dummy rotate in striking dummy encounters because what else could there possibly be? So would, in effect, any other MMO's class's kit. That's not remotely an issue specifically with Samurai theme.

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Those buttons you mention only exist to make you feel more busy while playing an incredibly mind-numbingly boring core gameplay.

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And yet Samurai would be a hell of a lot more dull without "those buttons" (Shinten, Midare, Tenka, Higan, Yaten, and Gyoten, half of which you called the representatives for the core of Samurai identity).

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It's the equivalent of constantly having to tap on buildings to collect currency in mobile games, nothing more, nothing less.

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Perhaps if said games had a fixed rhythm, fixed gaps, differing priorities between early- and late-gap oGCD presses, and far more to track. At which point it'd be, well, nothing like currency-collection tap-spamming in a mobile game. Because it isn't. You should already be aware that it isn't.

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To a very small degree this is not problematic or unexpected, but in FFXIV these non-player-interactive filler buttons have become the vast majority of skills and hence hotbars are so bloated that this is noteworthy when people discuss the game to non-players.

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Agreed. Too much is bloat.

But apply your warrants equally. If anything we hit "just for damage", for instance, becomes inherently "bloat", we're left with next to nothing (and if including indirect contribution, then truly nothing, as every fight is ended by killing things so even healing and mit are ultimately in the interest of damage).

Moreover, I suspect that most things we can think of to use for damage would still, ultimately, be used in rote rotation so long as encounters and other contexts of combat in XIV remain so unvaried. You could have the fanciest ramping-per-crit ability that requires you and two others to dash through the boss and rotate alternatingly in a hexagram formation and buffs your next-next hit and it'd still slot in rotationally, just with firmer job constraints... so long as the encounters allow that to be a norm.

well yeah Kenki still feels useless like it currently is because there is no much else you use it on but burst.

But Samurai's Dawntrail Gameplay is enough to bullshit you into having fun, which is better than Viper which is only enjoyable with a Good Glamour, or NIN (okay at least Raiton is still fun, but Zesho Meppo/Deathfrog should be just a permanent upgrade instead of a 2min) or DRG(is supposed to Jump but these new animations just fall flat).. also lvl100 Monk, where is my Hundred Fists Skill!?

Though I may have a New Proposal to the Bring Back Kaiten Demand:
Tendo for 20 Kenki
think about it, I mean there is no reason for a Samurai to do a Tendoless Iaijutsu at lvl100, so I have to Visions for the Future:

The Hopeful One:
Kaiten returns at lvl52 but granting the next weaponskill to be direct hit and getting The Tendo Buff at lvl100.
The Desperate/Consequent One:
The Kenki Removal would be the consequent path of the Direction of the Current Samurai, since there is not much use for Kenki outside of Shinten. Gyoten, Yaten are utility and do not necessarily need Kenki anyway and I do not know anyone who asked for One Minute Senei/Guren.

But I'm also not a Fan of the simplification of all rotations and harmonizations, like the Mumyo Shoha Removal.. yes, because I wanted Shoha to be Geirskogul ugh..
I remain of the opinion that 6.08 Samurai was the peak state of Samurai Gameplay and all they had to do is to

1. Make Kaiten Direct Hit
2. make Sen'ei/Guren into buffs to Shinten/Kyoten, activated by Ikishoten
3. keep Tenka Goken Conal

Also: Iaijutsu should always require a target
The Fantasy of a Sword Master possess the ability and agency to decide what to target and what not in order to become One with the Battlefield.

and now a little RANT:
How does it feel that Ikishoten is your 2minute Conal AoE Button now?
that Zanshin not only requires Zanshin ready but also 50 Kenki? a bit redundant if you ask me 2 requirements for One OGCD Cone Attack.. The Funniest Part about it is: I didn't even need to rewrite my Double Slice Buster Macro, which I still rewrote by renaming it into Rising Slice Buster, but yeah I'm not a Fan of the current direction of Rotation Design due to compromise of Job Fantasy and Harmonization.

Sorry for the nitpicks, but...

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

Kaiten returns at lvl52 but granting the next weaponskill to be direct hit

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This would be a damage loss if the auto-crit were removed from Iaijutsu. If it remains, it would be only exactly as damage-efficient (240p on Midare for 20K instead of 300p for 25K) as Shinten. You would need to increase the potency of Iaijutsu to make an auto-direct (only a 25% modifier, down from 50%), which would have to be siphoned from elsewhere, or decrease its Kenki cost (say, to 15, which would bring it back to its old 16p/K instead of Shinten's 12p/K).

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I do not know anyone who asked for One Minute Senei/Guren.

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I didn't, but nonetheless enjoy the change. They're more interesting hit slightly more often.

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Also: Iaijutsu should always require a target

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At this point, that's simply saying that SAM shouldn't be allowed to destealth nearby invisible enemies with their largest AoE.

I preferred moving in and out for Fuga->Oka->Tenka, etc., but I doubt most will care at this point.

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How does it feel that Ikishoten is your 2minute Conal AoE Button now?

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It feels fine. Ikishoten still does what it's always done: it forces you to drop to 35-50 Kenki before hitting it as not to overcap. It just now happens to not be quite so worth hitting almost precisely on CD in dungeons. The extra pressure it put on our Kenki gauge by being a 60s CD will be missed, but only barely, especially without a desynced Guren/Senei (which did the same until their cost was halved).

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that Zanshin not only requires Zanshin ready but also 50 Kenki? a bit redundant if you ask me 2 requirements for One OGCD Cone Attack.

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Yes and no. Again, Ikishoten still makes you drop Kenki prior as before. It does feel weird that it now provides only 2 extra APM, down from 3, though. Before, it felt more frenetic to spend everything in a short burst before and after Iki, and while it's only lost one oGCD spender, it can sometimes feel more empty than that difference since we'll have frequently gone from zero extra space to finally having it. I might also be happier if Zanshin was charged by different means, but... probably not by much.

Tl;dr: I think you're making a bit too much out of the loss of Kenki, at this point (ignoring the other contributors to the results you mention) and failing to notice what's still working just as before (i.e., just fine).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

This would be a damage loss if the auto-crit were removed from Iaijutsu. If it remains, it would be only exactly as damage-efficient (240p on Midare for 20K instead of 300p for 25K) as Shinten. You would need to increase the potency of Iaijutsu to make an auto-direct (only a 25% modifier, down from 50%), which would have to be siphoned from elsewhere, or decrease its Kenki cost (say, to 15, which would bring it back to its old 16p/K instead of Shinten's 12p/K).

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I mean this could be trivially resolved if we fudge with numbers a bit, and Kaiten comes back, costs 20, and actually adds a flat 240 potency to the next GCD.

Would it be at all worth doing that over just using Shinten? No of course not. But hey, if people are so insistent on Kaiten despite how it mechanically offers no gameplay improvement, might as well bring the flair back but make it exactly a wash in damage, then it can exist and whoever wants to use it can use it, the rest can just use Shinten instead.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

I mean this could be trivially resolved if we fudge with numbers a bit, and Kaiten comes back, costs 20, and actually adds a flat 240 potency to the next GCD.

Would it be at all worth doing that over just using Shinten? No of course not. But hey, if people are so insistent on Kaiten despite how it mechanically offers no gameplay improvement, might as well bring the flair back but make it exactly a wash in damage, then it can exist and whoever wants to use it can use it, the rest can just use Shinten instead.

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That is not remotely worth doing. At least Eos/Selene skins now are pretty clearly cosmetic, but that's not going to be the instinctive conclusion about an actual combat skill.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That is not remotely worth doing. At least Eos/Selene skins now are pretty clearly cosmetic, but that's not going to be the instinctive conclusion about an actual combat skill.

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And yet if you hid the damage numbers from players, they would not even be able to tell the difference. /shrug

But at that point I got to wonder, what about Kaiten do people desire back? The gameplay? Well in that case my idea would be perfect, no? The change in fixed rotation from The Balance? Is that such a big deal whether you use a rotation someone else wrote down for you, or another rotation someone else wrote down for you? Or is it the damage, pining for a time when Samurai could easily outdamage other jobs by a mile "if played correctly"? (because then bad news, that is quite unlikely to come back, especially after the recent Picto debacle)

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Originally Posted by Carighan

And yet if you hid the damage numbers from players, they would not even be able to tell the difference. /shrug)

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If you hid damage numbers, nothing would make any difference. It's a non-sequitur.

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But at that point I got to wonder, what about Kaiten do people desire back? The gameplay?

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Yes, but most people like for optimization to have a reward. Imagine if every mechanic were purely cosmetic. How many Ultimate raiders would feel engaged therein? Hell, how many players who just aren't Netflix-and-Broil casual, even?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Yes, but most people like for optimization to have a reward. Imagine if every mechanic were purely cosmetic. How many Ultimate raiders would feel engaged therein? Hell, how many players who just aren't Netflix-and-Broil casual, even?

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But that's the thing, the vast majority are. The majority of 1-2-3 combos for example have no reason to exist. They could be cleanly replaced with a single button that first tries to cash in X stacks of a self buff for some effect, and if not adds 1 such stack on the player. Average out the damage, you just removed a combo at exactly 0 loss of gameplay and functionality. The combo is purely cosmetic, to support 3 different animations despite factually only having a single gameplay effect.

Effects such as Senei and Guren likewise only exist to support an extra animation and pretend the job is more complex than it is, plenty other games solve this via a CD-based proc. At no loss of gameplay, in particular because in FFXIV we are on a fixed schedule of 120s anyways, so deviation for optimization purposes is always a fixed affair where an optimal solution has been pre-computed and you just have to play the monkey and press the buttons in that order (modulo the fight mechanics but that again leads to 1 single static optimal solution for each fight at most, usually it's 2-3 for a whole expansion however).

I get what you mean, but what you describe as the bad hypothetical case is what we have. That's after all my big issue with the current combat system and class design, that 20+ buttons and so many lengthy tooltips all come together to achieve a gameplay depth of about a puddle and exactly 0 player agency. Even in the specific case you mention, player-agency wise knowing which skill to press Kaiten for and which not to is no different than knowing when to pool gauge and when not to. It's a simple rote memorization thing, not actual interaction or agency.

(edit)
I should add, I think the idea behind Kaiten or something akin to it is pretty damn cool, but it's previous incarnation is no better (but also no worse) than the replacement. Neither offers gameplay worth mentioning, in fact I'd argue neither are worse a hotbar spot and the whole gauge of Samurai serves no purpose and could be cleanly removed. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't want gameplay focused around preparing enhancements for the next attack, after all Warlocks in DAoC were a fantastic idea and actually fit really well in the context of that game. The underlying idea is awesome!

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Originally Posted by Carighan

But that's the thing, the vast majority are. The majority of 1-2-3 combos for example have no reason to exist.

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They do as long as you're punished for not using them. And so long as console remains without access to xivcombo and xivcombo remains against ToS, we will be.

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They could be cleanly replaced with a single button that... <snip>. The combo is purely cosmetic, to support 3 different animations despite factually only having a single gameplay effect.

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It would be... if you actually made that change. But that change hasn't been made.

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I get what you mean, but what you describe as the bad hypothetical case is what we have.

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It's not. You're describing something with zero fail state and without even the ability to take on choice rather than simply lacking it in the content presently given. We don't have that, thankfully. Not quite.

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It's a simple rote memorization thing, not actual interaction or agency.

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And yet, so long as you're not the perfect cyborg computer, choosing what to risk drifting on for the simple fact that at some point you are almost certainly going to mess up on your execution of that rote-ly memorized thing in context still offers interaction and agency.

It could be better, aye, but for 99.9% of players it is still very much something.

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I should add, I think the idea behind Kaiten or something akin to it is pretty damn cool, but it's previous incarnation is no better (but also no worse) than the replacement. Neither offers gameplay worth mentioning, in fact I'd argue neither are worse a hotbar spot and the whole gauge of Samurai serves no purpose and could be cleanly removed.

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I disagree, for the simple fact that it'd be yet more dull without them than with.

Would I rehaul the job from scratch for greater cognitive load and button-density, both, if I had some dictatorial turn at the wheel? Absolutely. But I also wouldn't want to ignore that the simple rhythmic fun of APM and having to swap between buttons, sometimes hitting certain actions asap while holding others until just .5s + ping before the next GCD, all while executing mechanics perfectly, is also fun for seemingly a majority of players. Even if that cognitive load would add the keys and riffs of a certain job, it'd be the latter that adds provides the ear candy or by whatever other means brings the arrangement and mixing together, so to speak.

I miss you, Kaiten. Let me hear your sweet sound once more...

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Originally Posted by TheGrimace

I miss you, Kaiten. Let me hear your sweet sound once more...

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*whoosh whoosh whoosh whoosh CHIIIING!*

but back to the topic, I just did a dungeon as lvl100 SAM, did a 100k+ Crit with Tendo Setsugekka and I felt nothing.

I wish I was able to influence my Damage Output with my Resources that I have beyond Spamming Shinten and looking at 20 Kenki as a Reminder to the Good Ol'days.

now thinking about Ikishoten and Shoha again.
If Ikishoten would turn Shinten into Sen'ei (and Kyuten into Guren) you would never accidently miss another Sen'ei/Guren ever again.

As for Shoha, with The Line AoE Shoha the Samurai is locked out of certain situtations to use Shoha Now. Main Example be the Drake Family Secret in Sil'die and yes this is just side content but still, nuanced Kits allow nuanced Challenges. So yes, Shoha II (Mumyo Shoha) should return aswell, though I like the New Shoha Animation, so how to address that? Simple, turn Shoha I into a Ranged Attack, that way it's still single target and make sense throwing those shockwaves.

As for Kaiten being a dps loss, idc, then they should boost the direct hit buff from Kaiten.
I want to utilize Kenki to boost my Weaponskills instead of having nothing else for Kenki but Burst.. or in other words I want Kenki to support the Burst instead of being just Burst only.

And Also, Cone Tenka with Target Requirement should returns aswell
Or just scrap Kenki altogether and make Tsubamegaeshi the lvl52 Skill :/

for me, The Samurai is the embodiment of the Fantasy of a Swordmaster, who becomes one with the Battlefield by having total control about what they can achieve while showcasing a Masterful display of the Way of the Sword.

In Gameplay the Samurai's Kit is about Discovery and Mastery (or at least it supposed/used to be). What do I mean with this? The Samurai should have the option to decide what to do, not just to attack or not but also what to hit or not. Practicly, you're in an Single Target Situation, you do the Single Target Skill and when you're in an AoE Situation, you use the AoE Skill.

Endwalker Launch Samurai perfectly depicted that Fantasy of Discovery and Mastery
mastering Shinten and Kyuten,
Sen'ei and Guren,
aswell as Shoha and Mumyo Shoha
and discovering Ogi Namikiri as Double Slice Buster Conal Attack.

Dawntrail ruined that. Shoha is Geirskogul Now with no nuance or option and Ogi Namikiri is still old Ogi Namikiri with no Single Target Counterpart.. which could've been Cloud's Cross Slash btw! but no.

and how does Kaiten play in all of this? well Kaiten is the Mastery over all Weaponskills of the Samurai, especially Iaijutsu.

Now with my Point of View of how the Samurai of FFXIV should work, what would my Dawntrail Samurai look like?

First off Kaiten would've returned at lvl52 and would've gotten the Tendo Buff on lvl100 instead of Meikyo Shisui.

Cone Tenka Goken would've returned.

Mumyo Shoha would've returned and the First Shoha would've gotten an Ranged Attack Perk, because even though I hate Line AoE Shoha, I love the Animation turning Shoha into a Ranged Attack is the Best of Both Worlds because that way we can keep the cool animation while being true to Shoha's Original Design. +Come on! charging up targetted Shockwave directly to display Sword Mastery is just amazing! Compared to Geirskogul on Samurai.

Ikishoten would've turned Shinten into Sen'ei and Kyuten into Guren

Ogi Namikiri would've shared it's Cool Down with a Single Target Alternative, mastering the Ogi Technique.

about Zanshin.. honestly idk, I would categorize Zanshin as Discovery Skill, means 8.0 would add an Single Target Variant and we're good. Though! I would remove the Kenki Cost of Zanshin since Zanshin already requires Zanshin Ready to work, so it eating up Ikishoten's Kenki boost is redundant.

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

for me, The Samurai is the embodiment of the Fantasy of a Swordmaster, who becomes one with the Battlefield by having total control about what they can achieve while showcasing a Masterful display of the Way of the Sword.

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Having above average versatility that, with enough skill, can allow many meaningful outs that can coalesce into some manner of counterstrategy can therefore be an identity, but... actual "total control"??? What would that even mean? And why would "total control over what [it] can achieve" be more appropriate for a Samurai than for a Monk or Ninja?

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Dawntrail ruined that. Shoha is Geirskogul Now with no nuance or option

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The "nuance", small thought it be, is in positioning relative to your target to hit the other enemies and in choosing who to deal the greater focus damage to... which is no less than a AoE-Shoha would offer if it dealt exactly half damage (since you could choose between splitting the damage evenly or focusing one) and more than an AoE Shoha if would offer if it dealt between 34 and 49% damage (since then the only skill expression would be in counting to three (3) -- THREE ENEMIES).

https://static.pbslearningmedia.org/...66_lS01Vp2.jpg

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Ogi Namikiri is still old Ogi Namikiri with no Single Target Counterpart

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Because it doesn't need one. It has it. On your primary target. The AoE version (40% weaker) is then dealt to everyone else.

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

I would remove the Kenki Cost of Zanshin since Zanshin already requires Zanshin Ready to work, so it eating up Ikishoten's Kenki boost is redundant.

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Yeah, that's fair.

Samurai just feels so bad to play without Kaiten... all of it's weaponskills that COULD have been powered by Kaiten just feels like you you hitting enemies with a wet noodle without Kaiten... and having Kaiten on Samurai could have been SO USEFUL during the "Pictomancer Supremacy" arc when Dawntrail launched...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Because it doesn't need one. It has it. On your primary target. The AoE version (40% weaker) is then dealt to everyone else.

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In fact I'd go as far as saying that since FFXIV factually uses no mezz spells (there is Sleep, but nobody ever has that on their hotbars even, nevermind would utilize it) there is no reason not to remove ~all AoEs from ~all jobs, and just make all single target attacks cause explosion damage around the target for a percentage.

There's no need to waste the hotbar space on a mechanism (avoiding hitting extra targets) that is never ever used.

Zanshin > Kaiten

still crying about this. its not gonna happen :/

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Originally Posted by Carighan

In fact I'd go as far as saying that since FFXIV factually uses no mezz spells (there is Sleep, but nobody ever has that on their hotbars even, nevermind would utilize it) there is no reason not to remove ~all AoEs from ~all jobs, and just make all single target attacks cause explosion damage around the target for a percentage.

There's no need to waste the hotbar space on a mechanism (avoiding hitting extra targets) that is never ever used.

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At present there is no point, no. But that's because "trash" in this game is literally trash. Give things to actually focus down, atop some bits and pieces of utility (i.e., still output bonuses, but less obviously so / in manners impossible to estimate without their context) and there'd be reason enough to have AoE/overall vs. ST/focus damage on rare occasion in kits.

So while I'd agree, I'd say that points to a still larger problem than button waste that would be further cemented if QoLed around instead of being addressed: virtually all combat with 3+ simultaneously attackable targets in this game is creatively bankrupt.

Sure, but I can't see on-damage-breaks CC abilities (mezzes) make a re-appearance in this game all of a sudden. For anything else, X damage + Y% cleave like all newer AoEs works perfect, including having to focus down specific targets. Not enough depth to be gained from having "everything evenly" vs "one a bit more" options.

(Don't get me wrong I'd love for mezz spells to be a thing again, but I just don't see it happening :D )

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Sure, but I can't see on-damage-breaks CC abilities (mezzes) make a re-appearance in this game all of a sudden. For anything else, X damage + Y% cleave like all newer AoEs works perfect, including having to focus down specific targets. Not enough depth to be gained from having "everything evenly" vs "one a bit more" options.

(Don't get me wrong I'd love for mezz spells to be a thing again, but I just don't see it happening :D )

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I'm not talking about mezzes, though. I'm talking about focus damage (be that in targeting or, more broadly... in timing).

At present there is virtually never a reason to sacrifice overall damage to kill a particular something earlier because there's simply no complexity to mobs where by one may hold disproportionate threat (dangerous but squishy) or be a disproportionate obstacle (e.g., by placing an aura over others that enhances their attack or defense or unlocks additional mechanics for them) or any other synergies between mobs (binds before AoEs, etc.).

And it's not just among trash; gamewide there's virtually no point ever at-cost burst or sacrificing overall damage to deal more of it more immediately even if there were means to do so.

To be clear, I agree that X potency to primary target and Y% of that to the rest should be the way of things across most of the kit...

...buuut, for every mechanic we remove or consolidate just because it has no place in the current context of the game, we'd best be asking ourselves if that's a context we want to thereby affirm / further solidify.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The "nuance", small thought it be, is in positioning relative to your target to hit the other enemies and in choosing who to deal the greater focus damage to...

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I would shift that nuance to Cone Tenka, due to frequency, Shoha (and Shoha II) are more like Bonus Attacks to throw at the Enemy after performing 3rd Iaijutsu(&Ogi)

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Because it doesn't need one. It has it. On your primary target. The AoE version (40% weaker) is then dealt to everyone else.

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Because it didn't got one, look at Guren and Senei, that's my point.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Samurai just feels so bad to play without Kaiten... all of it's weaponskills that COULD have been powered by Kaiten just feels like you you hitting enemies with a wet noodle without Kaiten... and having Kaiten on Samurai could have been SO USEFUL during the "Pictomancer Supremacy" arc when Dawntrail launched...

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Without Kaiten, the Rotation of the Samurai doesn't really change after lvl50. Kaiten made it so you could utilize Kenki to make your lvl50 Rotation hit even harder and it felt kinda complete. But now Samurai is just the lvl50 Rotation with some bonus attacks.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

just make all single target attacks cause explosion damage around the target for a percentage.
There's no need to waste the hotbar space on a mechanism (avoiding hitting extra targets) that is never ever used.

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at that point we could just play Dynasty Warriors instead^^

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Originally Posted by StriderZessei

Zanshin > Kaiten

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you seriously prefer a 2minute OGCD that costs not only 50 kenki but also requires *Ready* to activate over a 5second Skill that costs 20 Kenki and boosts the following weaponskill?
well I disagree.

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Originally Posted by HanakoTheGoth

still crying about this. its not gonna happen :/

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It's debating, not crying and if it's gonna happen, well be surprised

Funnily, Tendo is basicly Kaiten without Kenki, which makes it feel kinda empty.
wish I could use 20 Kenki for Tendo, honestly

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

I would shift that nuance to Cone Tenka, due to frequency, Shoha (and Shoha II) are more like Bonus Attacks to throw at the Enemy after performing 3rd Iaijutsu(&Ogi)

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You can have both. Regaining aim on Tenka does not mean you have to remove it from Shoha, let alone at additional button (bloat) cost.

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Because it didn't got one, look at Guren and Senei, that's my point.

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And look at what little difference Guren vs. Senei makes. If you can count to two, you've solved its optimization / skill expression. That's my point.

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at that point we could just play Dynasty Warriors instead^^

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"If we have one button less of bloat, we'll be reduced from the strategic/tactics-minded and highly deliberate game we have today to just mindlessly mowing down enemies in ways we definitely never did before in dungeons."

...I can't, man.

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you seriously prefer a 2minute OGCD that costs not only 50 kenki but also requires *Ready* to activate over a 5second Skill that costs 20 Kenki and boosts the following weaponskill?

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It's a bankable heavy hit that at least offers some agency in when (especially, within the raid buffs) it sees use without causing drift per said agency. What's so odd about finding that more pleasing ---especially, in its control--- than a chore (fun button-press or not) to be used before every single Iaijutsu (at therefore no increase in control)?

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Funnily, Tendo is basicly Kaiten without Kenki

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It's not. It's a bankable / virtually-driftless 40s burst GCD-CD. It has nothing to do with Kaiten beyond the idea of being stronger than an average GCD, at which point Iaijutsu or even your combo finishers themselves would be 'like Kaiten'.

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wish I could use 20 Kenki for Tendo, honestly

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If the CD were removed to make Tendo something utterly different, that then really would be Kaiten, just without any way to mess up. Which should largely defeat the point, no?

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

at that point we could just play Dynasty Warriors instead^^

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It's the current reality. I'm just advocating for removing hotbar bloat that has no functional use case anyways.

https://i.postimg.cc/SxVgL103/image.png

Karten was a skill that you pressed for a one time buff and than forgot it for some time, if i remember it correctly.
With the new evolved mode and the end of the 2 min meta, is it even less likely, that Kaiten could come back. Whe even saw by the dragoon, that its buff moves are vanishing (or are merged into other skills).

It's also always important to keep in mind that Kaiten was just an indirect way of a damage oGCD. It can (and could be, case in point current design) be removed at no loss of functionality by replacing it with a directly-damaging oGCD and balancing the numbers so it evens out.

That being said, I feel Kaiten was more flavourful. Not every class has to have the exact same implementation for the same effect, and in fact I'd argue classes benefit from doing X in different ways A, B and C of which in some fights A will be better, in others B and in yet other C. That gives classes flavour via unique little up- and downsides. But ultimately the difference is small, because everyone still does X.

So if some class doesn't have damaging oGCDs, instead their oGCD gives a self-buff that adds damage to the next damaging GCD, that's more than fine. That's just a neat little mechanical difference.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

(there is Sleep, but nobody ever has that on their hotbars even, nevermind would utilize it)

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Usually love how blunt you are, Cari, but the masochists who solo deep dungeons as Astro and Black Mage do sometimes actually press this button. Which is really scraping the barrel to be contrarian on my part, but, y'know.

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Originally Posted by Videra

Usually love how blunt you are, Cari, but the masochists who solo deep dungeons as Astro and Black Mage do sometimes actually press this button. Which is really scraping the barrel to be contrarian on my part, but, y'know.

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Haha, fair. xD

Excuse me, just paying my respects.

*leaves flowers*

To sleep:
You need it as a mage in the early lvl for the first few msq and class quest.
And, its a role skill. Not a class specific spell.

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Originally Posted by Keichi

To sleep:
You need it as a mage in the early lvl for the first few msq and class quest.

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You don't.

Yeah you really don't. Sleep ought to be and hopefully is removed in EverCold. We can't debloat if everything gets to stick around because Timmy (9) got to use it once at level 10 in one specific dungeon and thinks that absolutely validates the skill.

If you don't press it multiple times per hour of combat, regardless of which combat, remove it. And yes, this is why I absolutely am in favor of merging AoE and single target abilities, and have been for a long long time. They're an either-or situation and hence there's no reason to have both separate on the hotbar.

You need sleep at the start of the game. At least is it usefull.
I had last month created a new chara as a mage for fun of experience the beginning again. And there was at least 2 quest, where i would probably die, if i wouldnt use sleep.

The thraumaturge quest where you find the urn.
The enemy are at that point still a higher lvl as you, if you only did the msq. In order to reach the mission point has you to sneak throught some guards. One place is very narrowed, where every time i do that, do i take aggro. Using sleep helps to avoid the battle, until you has the cut scene.
In the story battle than are allways new enemy showing up. Their dmg seems to be to high, as if the Auto heal of the quest could keep up. In using sleep, has you to deal with only one enemy at the same time and than is the heal keeping up.

The same in the Uldah msq quest, when the betrayl of the mercenaries comes. You has to fight 3-4 enemy at ones, with the commander being stronger. Your support is dealing with 1 of them. You yourself would has to deal with 2-3 people. That is to much damage you are taking. By using sleep, are you again forcing a 1 vs 1 and than is your healing keeping up.

This problem seems to vanish later on, when you has aoe skills and better equipment. But at least at the start is sleep usefull.

You realize you dragging two low-level situations you could have just as easily solved without sleep out to try justify the skill being around only makes it look more rubbish? That's ignoring of course that the rest of us just solved it the danny-devito-meme way.

What has you solved?
I only saw the quote that you say, nobody has sleep in the hotbar (i have it) and, that it could vanish.
I simply say, that the spell has at least to the beginning a use. Probably are there some more msq fights, where sleep is very usefull as a mage. But its nearly 10 years ago, that i did most of the msq. And most of the msq did i as a other class as a blackmage, because i had allways hp trouble and was very slow with casting, that i wasnh able to keep up with all the enemy at ones (only yet in DT had i done all msq as a blm again and there had whe rarely many enemie at ones).

Sleep is not really a spell for group play. But for solo content. Except, that its very often faster to use aoe spells and shield against them. The only thing that sleep need is, that the enemy dont instantly wakes up (mean, that sleep is the caster version of stun).

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Originally Posted by Keichi

You need sleep at the start of the game. At least is it usefull.
I had last month created a new chara as a mage for fun of experience the beginning again. And there was at least 2 quest, where i would probably die, if i wouldnt use sleep.

The thraumaturge quest where you find the urn.
The enemy are at that point still a higher lvl as you, if you only did the msq. In order to reach the mission point has you to sneak throught some guards. One place is very narrowed, where every time i do that, do i take aggro. Using sleep helps to avoid the battle, until you has the cut scene.
In the story battle than are allways new enemy showing up. Their dmg seems to be to high, as if the Auto heal of the quest could keep up. In using sleep, has you to deal with only one enemy at the same time and than is the heal keeping up.

The same in the Uldah msq quest, when the betrayl of the mercenaries comes. You has to fight 3-4 enemy at ones, with the commander being stronger. Your support is dealing with 1 of them. You yourself would has to deal with 2-3 people. That is to much damage you are taking. By using sleep, are you again forcing a 1 vs 1 and than is your healing keeping up.

This problem seems to vanish later on, when you has aoe skills and better equipment. But at least at the start is sleep usefull.

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I played BLM from ARR to Endwalker and never had to use sleep even once. No idea what you are talking about, it really seems more like a you issue instead of being a reason to have sleep on the hotbar.
A friend of mine occasionally likes to try to play around with it and see where you can use it. In most situations you just straight up can't. The devs put sleep in the game and then forgot about it entirely.
The only place in the game I can see sleep being somewhat useful is if you solo PotD on BLM, but that's such an edge case it really doesn't justify the skill staying in the game.

I don't want Kaiten back.

It would make the job really rigid again.