Please implement something to teach players how to play

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Exactly this, min.ilvl requirements exist by the devs to quantify "okay" performance

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Gear =/= performance.

Gear sets a theoretical maximum performance, but no minimum.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Gear =/= performance.

Gear sets a theoretical maximum performance, but no minimum.

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Well yeah, they dont assume people will afk and have zero performance because that would be absurd, just as absurd as elitist repeatedly saying they are seeing people that never improve and dps 1/10th of dps of their job's ability as if they literally believe the person is there pressing 1 button every 8 seconds.

The devs expect that an average person with that gear level and a very average performance is enough, and that average performance is pretty low considering the max performance a job can bring, and more often than not there's more than a few people playing above that average performance which is why content can be beaten with multiple dead players.

Once again the actual requirements are well defined, the problem comes when elitists demand ultra quick and efficient runs and demand triple the base requirements because god forbid they wipe even once D:

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

How do you quantify what is "okay" performance?

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If we assume best is 100, OK would be around 45~55.
Anyone asking for more than that in a normal duty is being unrealistic. You can ignore them because they are trouble regardless.

Focus on the real issue which is the average player performing 15~20 thinking they are 45~55.

This topic suggests giving information/ideas that can maybe fix this issue. Yet you completely ignore this and focus on the unrealistic performance?

In my book, anyone who reads their tooltip and understands the 'design' of the job can easily do well.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Once again the actual requirements are well defined, the problem comes when elitists demand ultra quick and efficient runs and demand triple the base requirements because god forbid they wipe even once D:

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Sounds like for you, an elitist is a literally a person that presses more than 1 button (well, 2 if count 'w')

These 46 (so far) pages tell me that FFXIV has the same issues as other games when people with different ideas of "how the game should be played" end up in the same group. You get toxicity. And this is why I'm so uncomfortable doing group content. My personality type is that I don't handle confrontations well at all. If I don't group with others, I don't have to face that possibility, so when a game *requires* group content to continue the story line, I get all hesitant and have to pluck up the courage to dive into DF to get the dungeon done.

Why use DF for dungeons?? I literally do not know anyone else playing this game; none of my friends have (or are likely to) follow me here. I'm not in a free company, nor do I really want to be in one because those usually come with expectations that I simply do not wish to have hanging over me.

I'm playing a dragoon and loving the at-level skills; leaping into combat, etc. and I finally got my AoE skill. I try to use all the skills as appropriately as I can and love executing combos (and boosting damage on combo3 when I can), but there's nothing to tell me just how well I'm doing. I hit a FATE with a solo opponent, the big roc in Coerthas Central Highlands yesterday. I was lvl 42, it might have been at + difficulty as well, plus I didn't drink my healing potion in time so I died (everything was on CD)...but it was so close that my beginning level Chocobo was able to finish it off and I got the reward. So I think I'm doing OK but that doesn't give me the confidence to go into a dungeon with other people!

I don't completely object to occasional interactions with other players. There's nothing more depressing that running around a major city when there are no other players doing the same thing. I absolutely appreciate other people being around; I just don't necessarily want to interact with them.

WoW has the concept of world bosses popping up what a random collection of 40 players gang up on it and those are mad fun. FFXIV has FATES, sort-of similar world quests, which I don't mind either. None of those are laden with the same expectations about "doing your job and doing it right" as dungeons are, where you spend more than a few minutes with a bunch of other people.

And that's why as a level 43 Dragoon I'm still stuck at Toto-Rak! I hasten to add that's no-one's fault except mine. :) What I'm hoping to do is demonstrate that sometimes it's not about the level of competence of the player, its about the comfort level and a person's own perception of their competence. Because there's no real way to see how well you're doing. And I don't have a clue how you could do that in-game without causing all sorts of other issues about expected performance from those other "elitist" players. Because those do exist...and I'm very much afraid I'm going to get one or two whenever I have to do group content.

I've rambled enough; I'll shut up now.

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Originally Posted by Kaylal

Why use DF for dungeons?? I literally do not know anyone else playing this game; none of my friends have (or are likely to) follow me here. I'm not in a free company, nor do I really want to be in one because those usually come with expectations that I simply do not wish to have hanging over me.
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It was a good read, and really I can understand how you feel, but I just stop caring what other people think and how they feel when it comes to "time wasted" or failing in a group. A game is just that, and some times things are hard for people, and that is ok also. Grouping is just a bunch of people using each other for rewards and progression.




If people really want players to play better. Let Trusts be duoed and people who want to teach and learn. Can use dungeons as a tool with npcs to slowly teach players at the pace they want to go at.


Problem fix. No need to change content, no need to force players who don't want to learn to learn, and the people who do want to learn. Can use a system we already have.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

The devs expect that an average person with that gear level and a very average performance is enough, and that average performance is pretty low considering the max performance a job can bring, and more often than not there's more than a few people playing above that average performance which is why content can be beaten with multiple dead players.

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Inevitably, half of all players will fall below "average", as any average is the center-point of that population. In practice, "average" is of course a span, but even so there are some who will fall many standard deviations below what would be considered "average".

Divide it up by whatever means you like -- mechanics engaged in, throughput-per-gear-level produced, or even effective efforts spent, whatever you wish -- and there will still be people, especially here, who fall well below "average" even its definition were stretched to include 75% of the game's population.

The players giving rise to this thread's topics are not the average. They are those who (outside of the very rare troll or griefer) have not learned how, or have not been enticed to engage in, combat content to the extent of an "average" player.

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Once again the actual requirements are well defined, the problem comes when elitists demand ultra quick and efficient runs and demand triple the base requirements because god forbid they wipe even once D:

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No, they haven't. An almost entirely irrelevant content-ordering prerequisite, item level, has been defined -- and nothing else.

You admitted just above that gear alone will not equate to performance. Just prior to that you complained about players asking for more gear when they cannot secure other means of ensuring performance (e.g., skill or prior experience). You should already know that the base gear requirements have little to nothing to do with what's being requested to help and/or incentivize players to bridge their performance gaps.

Outside of intersections between in-game cultures of responsibility and those of least resistance alone, whether it be in WoW, B&S, BDO, GW2, or anywhere else, those setting extreme gear requirements are typically those who don't want to deal with the full course of a given piece of content -- not the "elitists" who actually enjoy those combat systems -- and would prefer to exclude players in favor of cheesing mechanics than actually engage with that content however they may.

You see this most often in progression systems that have progression with finely-increasing gear levels without finely-increasing difficulty, as one can simply grind out upgrade after upgrade, taking 3 months via gear to do what skill did in the first week of a given tier, and expect others to grind similarly all while despising the idea of actually learning one's rotations, CD syncs, and/or skill priorities, etc.

And let's consider what we've actually seen here so far...

Who here have been encouraging that we let players experiment, learn, and generally get comfortable with what the game has to offer, wipes or no? Those you would call "elitists".

Who here have been asking for improved learning tools and ways to present the combat more attractively to players? Those you would call "elitists".

Who here have at all asked for content to be less hinged, in terms of a pool of mechanics and design possibilities, around Savage alone? Those you would call "elitists".

At this point, if one isn't jumping in place swearing that everything about the game itself is already perfect (except, perhaps, there are people who don't enjoy carrying you or that Extreme content or harder should be removed) or even entertains the thought that there are ways the game could better situate or utilize its combat, are they, too, "elitists"?

We've got those looking at how things could be improved -- some starting with too high a bar and being talked down from it, others parsing out the best criteria, parameters, and definitions of the problem perceived first, but each nonetheless interested in making things better for the average player. Then we've got what amounts to slander and demands to cease communication. And somehow the first group is the toxic one?

I don't disagree that it would be nice if there was some way to have in game tutorials to help people learn their rotations better or have more tools to help improve their playing. However, what would it be? How much dev time/resources/money would it take to implement something? What are we as players willing to give up to have this whatever implemented? Would it get enough use to be worth the time and resources spent on it?

Some sort of parser could be nice, but it does come with some pretty big issues. I personally miss having a parser, for my own information, yes. But I have seen the downside to them in WoW, seen people bully others over their performance, and Yoshi has stated he does NOT want that in FFXIV, and I can't blame him.

No matter what might get implemented, there will STILL be plenty of people who won't use it, because they literally don't care about how well they perform as long as they can do the things they want to do in game. The dungeon trolls who delight in doing little to nothing because they know it irritates the people they are playing with, the people who just wanna smack some buttons and get on with the story - I'm sure there are plenty of other examples. The people who do want to learn, want to improve - they ask here, ask in game, look things up themselves. SO why invest time and resources into something that won't really fix these issues?

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Originally Posted by Tyssyn

No matter what might get implemented, there will STILL be plenty of people who won't use it, because they literally don't care about how well they perform as long as they can do the things they want to do in game.

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MSQ gate, simple as that. We already had a few, like step of faith and shinryu. Alas both of them were nerfed after a massive outcry.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

But you played through the game right? Like most people?

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It’s a fair point; job quests should absolutely tell you exactly what your basic loadout does and how to use it, or there should be in the play guide a very specific “these are your base rotations, here is what you do with them (positionals, etc), and here are abilities meant to be woven between gcd”

I unlocked Rdm, promptly forgot about it for a long while then revisited it months later (obviously forgetting whatever lv 50 quest was involved). I was probably 3-4 dungeons into it when I even realized the core duel cast mechanic.

While the play guide does help a lot in this regard, it is always good to have a live-fire demo, to practice. (And to be fair, we could do this at the stone/sky/whatever training dummies.)

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Originally Posted by Endariel

MSQ gate, simple as that. We already had a few, like step of faith and shinryu. Alas both of them were nerfed after a massive outcry.

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and you mock being called an elitist? Lmao.


Thank god the developers don't agree.

Content should never be nerfed, and players should get good enough to overcome it. Furthermore, Shinryu was never nerfed outside of ilvl increases. Although SE did nerf one of the best 24 mans twice because NA tends towards the paste eating. A utter shame.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Content should never be nerfed, and players should get good enough to overcome it. Furthermore, Shinryu was never nerfed outside of ilvl increases. Although SE did nerf one of the best 24 mans twice because NA tends towards the paste eating. A utter shame.

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Reminder that this is a VIDEO GAME, not the source of your self worth, this obsession with video game ""skill"" and high end content from some people screams a lot of negative things about one's ego.

Hint: Video games are designed to be beaten.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Reminder that this is a VIDEO GAME, not the source of your self worth, this obsession with video game ""skill"" and high end content from some people screams a lot of negative things about one's ego.

Hint: Video games are designed to be beaten.

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By effectively later patching out mechanics or making them irrelevant through massive reductions to a fight's requirements? Where did I see that in Super Mario back in the day, Dragon Age: Origins, Mass Effect, or any single-player FF game? Hmm...

This is what I don't understand. You have tough content you could do. Why do you want all content to be tougher?

Why is it that content that lets people play how they want, and not need to be "good". You want to take that away from people. So you can have MORE content for yourself while taking away content that is design with these people in mind?


I already got the answer to the problem. Like 4ish pages ago. If you want players to be better. Just let people duo Trusts, and it can be used as a teaching tool for people who want it. Instead, you got people want players to be PUNISHED for not meeting a standard.


You all care so much only because you want content that is harder and you want your DF runs to be faster. It has nothing to do with players getting good for that player sake. It has everything to do with you wanting people to play at a certain standard so the content gets balance around it. That will NEVER happen.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

By effectively later patching out mechanics or making them irrelevant through massive reductions to a fight's requirements? Where did I see that in Super Mario back in the day, Dragon Age: Origins, Mass Effect, or any single-player FF game? Hmm...

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That list is flawed. None of them games are a service like MMORPGS are.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

That list is flawed. None of them games are a service like MMORPGS are.

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Then, I repeat, what is it about "being a video game" that necessitates that fights be hugely nerfed the moment they require some novel thinking?

Day one, Steps of Faith was not outright difficult. It was merely different. Following its own very simple tasks, the fight was no harder than the trials before or after it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Then, I repeat, what is it about "being a video game" that necessitates that fights be hugely nerfed the moment they require some novel thinking?

Day one, Steps of Faith was not outright difficult. It was merely different. Following its own very simple tasks, the fight was no harder than the trials before or after it.

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The steps of progression makes it a game. A game does not have to be hard or requires thinking to be a game.

Myself, If I am going to do content over and over again. I rather it not be hard, and get through it quickly through the grind. Tougher content is fun for the first few times, but once you done it. It becomes tedious.

Quickly being key part, as even my personal feelings that I want to get things done fast. I'm not going to be upset if players prevent that, or want content taking away from them because they not good enough to make the run fast.

Jeeeeez this thread is going from discussion to ouch my brain to living breathing meme in record breaking time.

Some people commenting here just need to play a fricken single player game with cheat codes on. I would hate (love) to see how they deal with actually challenging content in anything. I recently discovered a term most amusing "baby rage" and I believe it adequately describes what would happen.

Group C from my previous post, having a stroke because they want it their way but we cannot have it ours because they cannot have it their way because we want it our way because they want it their way. Perhaps I am having a stroke but this is the only discussion even happening anymore. I am not surprised at'all only mildly amused. One 47 page long point of reference any time this topic arises. Waaaahh you just want the thing because you are selfish let us have the thing instead because "we are not selfish".

Reality casts introspection > introspection misses

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Myself, If I am going to do content over and over again. I rather it not be hard, and get through it quickly through the grind. Tougher content is fun for the first few times, but once you done it. It becomes tedious.

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This is a huge problem I have with final fantasy 14 in general. I recently finished shadowbringer and possibly go into bozja. I went to look at all of the gear and what it took to get it, this is before the tombstone cap was increased. It kind of feels like a mobile game with a cash shop. There are currencies upon currencies you have to keep track of for some unknown reason that are weekly capped for some unknown reason. I suppose it is to keep people playing the game for long periods of time, but it really just makes me irritated. I do not need grindy content to keep me playing the game, but I guess that is how some are incentivized at least how the company must see it.

Maybe it is not this way on the jp servers, but the na servers this grindy content has bred a whole horde of crazy speed running mind numbing individuals who are using third party software to queue dodge any alliance raid that is not labyrinth or syrcus tower all whilst putting on lower level gear so they do not meet the i level requirements for anything but crystal tower series. Those same people will never wait for sprouts to exit a cutscene, early pull bosses if people are not going fast enough, and could never be bothered with saying hello or goodbye just silent in silent out single player co op mmorpg experience. It makes me super turned off on the later content. If I have to grind for months to get memories or whatever you need to upgrade relic weapons I wish there were an alternative.

If I wanted to work while off from work I would just put in more hours. I also did not wish to be back in high school again which was why I left swtor in the first place. Clicks here clicks there, thirsty dudes getting lost in their characters slut glam while everyone dies around them because they would rather fap to their 'toon' than heal the party. No joke someone told me 'sorry, I didn't see what was happening I was looking up my characters skirt'...bruh

In the same kind of thing the OP is asking for, if only there was something to teach people how to drive their car properly irl... Something that could be called a "driving licence". With that, i would never be worried to cross the road of misbehaving drivers again ! Because there is absolutly no way that countless people, once they are done with their lessons, tests and tutorials, will start to forget them, or even worse : ignore them, to do what they want instead.

Irony aside, if underperforming players are making you so sick, then you are probably better off opening a "high dps, wall to wall pulls, no zero dps healer" group in PF.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Reminder that this is a VIDEO GAME, not the source of your self worth, this obsession with video game ""skill"" and high end content from some people screams a lot of negative things about one's ego.

Hint: Video games are designed to be beaten.

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A video game is suppose to be fun and played not watching netflix while playing cookie clicker. I may be playing an entirely different game, but if someone is just auto attacking within content what is even the point of paying a subscription. This is literally things I have seen when playing. Why would people pay for a game they do not wish to play? I wish people would be courteous and go into /say /afk at least they would be honest about what they are doing.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

The steps of progression makes it a game. A game does not have to be hard or requires thinking to be a game.

Myself, If I am going to do content over and over again. I rather it not be hard, and get through it quickly through the grind. Tougher content is fun for the first few times, but once you done it. It becomes tedious.

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It becomes tedious because you're doing it over and over... which is in turn because there is little variety among efficient means or content by which to meet the weekly caps.

For my part, I'd rather do the content at the difficulty I actually enjoy, with due reward for my efforts, so that my relative pool of choices is wider.

Ideally, as an average player, I should have, say, three levels/styles of content in PvE itself by which to farm out my weekly caps.

• I've got a choice that gives about 2 tomes per minute spent.
• Another that, given the likely occasional wipe or (excessive) caution, would take about twice as long, but still takes about 2 tomes per minute spent in my case. (For less skilled players, it might be a bit less efficient, and for more skill players, more efficient.)
• And, I've got a final choice that I can enjoy when I want zero stress, but gives a bit less per minute. (Again, for players who'd otherwise be making pivotal mistakes if they went into harder content at that time, maybe this will actually be the most efficient option by a slight margin.)

Why the assumption that the average player would be not only forced into more difficult content, but also that the content would be proportionately less rewarding of their efforts (more effort for the exact same reward efficiency).

The chances are, the less the content has to offer you -- i.e., the easier/shallower it is compared to your own skill level and/or preferred depth of engagement -- the faster you will get bored of it. At no point does the Savage raider look at the likely shallow-as-a-dry-pond Expert Roulette and think, "Yes, I want more of this. And everyone else should have it too, in amounts which would consume slightly more time for me -- even if that means far more time required for them."

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

Jeeeeez this thread is going from discussion to ouch my brain to living breathing meme in record breaking time.

Some people commenting here just need to play a fricken single player game with cheat codes on. I would hate (love) to see how they deal with actually challenging content in anything. I recently discovered a term most amusing "baby rage" and I believe it adequately describes what would happen.

Group C from my previous post, having a stroke because they want it their way but we cannot have it ours because they cannot have it their way because we want it our way because they want it their way. Perhaps I am having a stroke but this is the only discussion even happening anymore. I am not surprised at'all only mildly amused. One 47 page long point of reference any time this topic arises. Waaaahh you just want the thing because you are selfish let us have the thing instead because "we are not selfish".

Reality casts introspection > introspection misses

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I'm having a hard time understanding this little rant, but how does difficult content have anything to do with being a mmo or single player? Your logic makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Faafetai

This is a huge problem I have with final fantasy 14 in general. I recently finished shadowbringer and possibly go into bozja. I went to look at all of the gear and what it took to get it, this is before the tombstone cap was increased. It kind of feels like a mobile game with a cash shop. There are currencies upon currencies you have to keep track of for some unknown reason that are weekly capped for some unknown reason. I suppose it is to keep people playing the game for long periods of time, but it really just makes me irritated. I do not need grindy content to keep me playing the game, but I guess that is how some are incentivized at least how the company must see it.

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I understand this point also. And I'm going to add to this.



To the people who want to teach, and harder content in the base game, and dailies. Do you all understand just what that would lead too? I don't think you do. Players will always game the system, and will always take the shortest route, and or gatekeep players that does not meet your standards. Do you understand just how toxic the game would become? Wow mythic is proof of that, but lets not even talk wow. We seen in this game itself how people gate classes before, and what players do when harder content becomes the normal.



So here in your perfect FF14 you gatekeep players and have an intense program that teaches them. Ok, Now picture DF content that you do everything. Balance around that. Do some of you understand just how tedious the game would be? If we are going to grind for months on the same thing, it being mind numbing easy is MUCH better than it requiring full attention. If it required focus all the time, you understand just how much worse the grind would be?

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Reminder that this is a VIDEO GAME, not the source of your self worth, this obsession with video game ""skill"" and high end content from some people screams a lot of negative things about one's ego.

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Games are designed for EVERYONE.
From people with disabilities to the hardcore players.

This topic is to discuss the issue of player performance. Teach players how to play. Why? Because the vast majority of the players are bad. That's not coming from me, or the OP, it came from the development team themselves. So don't come down telling us that we're setting our own bar and expectations.

How's the development team handling this?
- Watering down job complexity.
- Nerfing content.
- Creating even easier content.
They even added easy and very easy mode to MSQ.

Players who have caught up with this are not pleased and are asking for an alternative solution. Instead of making things waaaay too easy. They can implement something to help players become better at playing the game. So the development team doesn't need to hold back when designing jobs and duties.

We keep going back to that one suggestion which is: make content harder.
I myself disagree with this. There are alternative ways to help players learn without making content harder.

Now I hope this thread starts bringing up ideas other than discussing that one idea that the majority seem to disagree with.

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Originally Posted by Kleeya

In the same kind of thing the OP is asking for, if only there was something to teach people how to drive their car properly irl... Something that could be called a "driving licence". With that, i would never be worried to cross the road of misbehaving drivers again ! Because there is absolutly no way that countless people, once they are done with their lessons, tests and tutorials, will start to forget them, or even worse : ignore them, to do what they want instead.

Irony aside, if underperforming players are making you so sick, then you are probably better off opening a "high dps, wall to wall pulls, no zero dps healer" group in PF.

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The OP was asking if there could be something implemented to help teach people who wish to learn. Maybe to fix the early content to not be so outdated. Somehow this devolved into people who just wish to stand there auto attacking arguing that the people telling them they need to use w,a,s,d to move are patronizing them and everyone who does not let them grief are grouped into the 'just want to do wall to wall speed running strats' category or something of the like. I just want people to be courteous, and to think about the others they are queuing with. There is a huge difference between 'underperforming players' and 'just doing what you want because heeee heee it is making everyone so mad, I am making everyone unable to complete the duty.'

The streamer who did this is a perfect example, but their tune changed when they played with their friends and wished to learn the savage fights. It makes me wonder if numerous people in this thread are doing the same thing and wish to not be called out for purposely using 'play style' as a way of being able to troll others who are just playing the game, who did not agree to be trolled because 'meh, I just don't feel like doing anything this dungeon'. Why even queue if not to troll or grief other people when they have no way of fighting back most of the time. There is literally nothing in the game explaining how to report or vote kick people in the game.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

I'm having a hard time understanding this little rant, but how does difficult content have anything to do with being a mmo or single player? Your logic makes no sense.

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Hmm.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

I'm having a hard time understanding anything.

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Better, much better.

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Originally Posted by Faafetai

The OP was asking if there could be something implemented to help teach people who wish to learn.

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I am beginning to believe this is indeed lost cause. You can lead a FF14 player to water and it will drown its self.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

Hmm.



Better, much better.

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Giving you a chance to explain, and you can't even do it. At least I can explain myself and why I feel the way I do.



anyway like I said. The simple answer to this problem is let the Trust system be duoed, and let the community use it to teach players that want to be taught. Problem fixed.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

If we assume best is 100, OK would be around 45~55.
Anyone asking for more than that in a normal duty is being unrealistic. You can ignore them because they are trouble regardless.

Focus on the real issue which is the average player performing 15~20 thinking they are 45~55.

This topic suggests giving information/ideas that can maybe fix this issue. Yet you completely ignore this and focus on the unrealistic performance?

In my book, anyone who reads their tooltip and understands the 'design' of the job can easily do well.

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How do you know they're performing at 15-20 compared to the entirety of the player base?

If you're making that assumption off what gets uploaded to FFLogs, you're not getting a true sample of performance from the player base in general let alone a complete report of all player performance. All you're seeing is what someone bothered to upload. Considering the logs are mainly relevant to the high end raiding community, the majority of the community aren't going to be recorded there because they're not doing high end content or they're doing it casually in pugs where there's unlikely to be anyone recording. Those 15-20 players might actually be 60-70 players if that data was getting collected from everyone.

I get that the thread was intended to address what some players perceive as a problem. Go back to my original response on the first page of the thread:

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

You can't teach someone who's not interested in learning. You can't get someone to put in effort when they feel the content is beneath them.

Those who are willing to learn and put in effort are doing it already.

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You also don't know much about people if you think everyone is able to understand what they're supposed to do just from reading tooltips. Not everyone has critical thinking skills and yet the game is here for anyone to enjoy regardless of what their skill level is. There's a reason so many players ask for guides - they need someone else to figure things out and explain it in language they understand.

There are a lot of players that won't even ask for a guide. Why? Because becoming a better player isn't necessary for them to enjoy the game. Their enjoyment is coming from sources other than performance.

The game is here for everyone to enjoy regardless of their skill level. SE places no burden on anyone to "git gud". They've even gone as far as adding the easy and very easy modes to solo duties so no one will be blocked from MSQ progress. If you're running into someone in EX/Savage/Ultimate who can't cut it, by all means remove them from the group. Maybe if they get removed often enough, they finally have the motivation to become a better player.

But it's not something that can be forced on players.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

To the people who want to teach, and harder content in the base game, and dailies. Do you all understand just what that would lead too? I don't think you do. Players will always game the system, and will always take the shortest route, and or gatekeep players that does not meet your standards. Do you understand just how toxic the game would become? Wow mythic is proof of that, but lets not even talk wow. We seen in this game itself how people gate classes before, and what players do when harder content becomes the normal.

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1. Teaching does not, nor does a desire to teach, suddenly cause people to game the system or take the shortest routes possible; they already do. Nothing in that would change.
   
   
2. Having harder content available or made subtly more normal in the game experience would not suddenly cause people to game the system or take the shortest routes possible; they already do. However, there would be change, in that taking the shortest route has less to be gained in the short term and less to be lost in the long term, as the ability to leech (i.e., to knowingly underperform or knowingly neglect what was situated as something that you should learn in order to perform at an average level) will have decreased.
   
   
3. "Dailies" are already in the game. I have no idea why you're bringing them up, but alright, let's take a look at what harm dailies can cause, which is actually higher that either of the other items you've mentioned. Dailies add a completion bonus. The thing about completion bonuses is that completion does not require optional elements. Even if those optional elements were balanced to be a real choice for those doing the content repeatedly, anyone doing that content only once per day -- and for whom other daily bonuses will have greater efficiency than doing repeats of that first piece of content -- faces a drastic loss in efficiency for doing those optional elements. Such can badly limit design, especially at the much more casual end of things.
   
   
4. Judging from the misinformation in your previous posts regarding Mythic in WoW, I severely doubt you can take it as proof of anything except that what you have no experience with is difficult for you to explain.
   
   
5. We see people "gate classes" when those who do not know, or expect those likely to join will not know, how to play their own job at the given level in turn insist on whatever advantages they can, be that party composition or item level, in order to carry them through it or make up the likely shortfall with minimal need to disband or replace. You may note that when players (have reason to) actually trust one another's competencies, that is neither necessary nor common.
   
   
6. I get that you intended for "when harder content becomes the normal" to ring of something like "when the sky falls", but

• no one here has asked that Extremes or Savage suddenly replace Normal, only that there be more that is capable of integrated, situated, and meaningful feedback across the pre-level-cap experience as to better bridge that eventual gap between the likes of leveling dungeons done at a crawl and Extreme trials -- perhaps including some mild hurdles of clear intent -- and...
• you're forgetting the whole idea here, that this would be to teach players, such that something between the likes of Extreme and Normal, for instance, would not feel harder than Normal itself does currently. The only way for content to perceivably harder by endgame, to the average player who's benefited from the changes suggested, is to have broken from the premise you're critiquing.

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So here in your perfect FF14 you gatekeep players and have an intense program that teaches them. Ok, Now picture DF content that you do everything. Balance around that. Do some of you understand just how tedious the game would be? If we are going to grind for months on the same thing, it being mind numbing easy is MUCH better than it requiring full attention. If it required focus all the time, you understand just how much worse the grind would be?

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How many different ways must one reiterate that mind-numbing content is mind-numbing? That is never a good thing. Just as irredeemably panic-inducing is not, itself, ever a good thing.

There can be a cathartic element to the prior or something thrilling to the latter, but those are separate elements. If there was something cathartic or relaxing in a given piece of content that was inseparable from it being mind-numbing, I might agree with you, but there isn't. The mind-numbing content is instead just... less. Of anything.

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Originally Posted by Faafetai

I should hope the devs at least have their heads screwed on straight to know if they added teaching things within the game it would be tailored to those learning and hopefully even the content they wish to do. I am assuming that was how this thread started. I would think they would just fix the early class quests to actually allow for you to test abilities to know what they do rather than kill opo opos a million times and light a torch to summon more opo opos, this just taught me someone on the dev team really hated opo opos for some reason.

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This, honestly.

Job flavor text: "Oh neat! Can't wait to see how the two archery styles diverge and which I'll kind of fit into more."

Job objectives: "...Oh, play-time inflation that has no connection to or synergy with the story except to be the... 13th reason as of yet for me to cross the river above the Bannock. Great... I mean, I guess the area's pretty, sure, but... isn't this path of archery butts supposed to have some intent to it -- something in keeping with the lessons the prior dialogue hinted at?"

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

So here in your perfect FF14 you gatekeep players and have an intense program that teaches them. Ok, Now picture DF content that you do everything. Balance around that. Do some of you understand just how tedious the game would be? If we are going to grind for months on the same thing, it being mind numbing easy is MUCH better than it requiring full attention. If it required focus all the time, you understand just how much worse the grind would be?

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I should hope the devs at least have their heads screwed on straight to know if they added teaching things within the game it would be tailored to those learning and hopefully even the content they wish to do. I am assuming that was how this thread started. I would think they would just fix the early class quests to actually allow for you to test abilities to know what they do rather than kill opo opos a million times and light a torch to summon more opo opos, this just taught me someone on the dev team really hated opo opos for some reason. I played other mmos so I kind of understood cooldowns and the like, but for someone who has never played an mmo or tanked before showing or teaching things called tank busters exist, maybe not giving you a tank stance at level 10 and right when you pick up the class would also be kind of them.

There should just be an option for content like they have for class quests but just put it into other things, so everyone can get what they want. People can already undersize content so they can do things easier at a higher level than what it would have been going in to the content synced. They had this for swtor you have , story mode, veteran, mastermode content, all of the same things just at different difficulties.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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You seem to need to learn about wow mythic. I could spend all this time teaching you at just how bad it is, how mythic keys and players treat each other because of that system. How the content is design that wants players to be over gear for the content, and how one mistake leads people to be toxic.


So since we will not come eye to eye because of your lack of knowledge on wow mythic. Lets look at your other points.


1. Teaching for what reason? Like I said I came up with an answer for the teaching issue. And if the normal content requires the game to teach and players to be "decent". For what ends?

2. Having harder content would mean that It would be more tedious to grind each day. I like that normal content is easy and does not test me, and most players like that also. I'm not saying that you can't have that content. What I am saying is that making the game harder would make the game more tedious to grind.

3. Back to point 2. Making the game harder would make the dailies more tedious.


5. Um...you ignore the history of this game. Dragoons of the past are crying tears of blood with this comment.


6. No what I am saying is that mind numbing easy content has its place, and is enjoyable. When I play diablo type games, and grind in them. I don't go...man I sure do wish my grind was harder, and tests me! No I enjoy the grind, and how easy it is to kill things.




So here is the point. The game rise to be top because it is easy and lets bad players stay bad and have fun. and it has hard content for people who want it. Nothing needs to change. content wise.


Can we add ways for players to teach each other? Sure and I gave an idea. But many of us draw a line when players talk of forcing people to get good.

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Originally Posted by Faafetai

I should hope the devs at least have their heads screwed on straight to know if they added teaching things within the game it would be tailored to those learning and hopefully even the content they wish to do. I am assuming that was how this thread started. I would think they would just fix the early class quests to actually allow for you to test abilities to know what they do rather than kill opo opos a million times and light a torch to summon more opo opos, this just taught me someone on the dev team really hated opo opos for some reason. I played other mmos so I kind of understood cooldowns and the like, but for someone who has never played an mmo or tanked before showing or teaching things called tank busters exist, maybe not giving you a tank stance at level 10 and right when you pick up the class would also be kind of them.

There should just be an option for content like they have for class quests but just put it into other things, so everyone can get what they want. People can already undersize content so they can do things easier at a higher level than what it would have been going in to the content synced. They had this for swtor you have , story mode, veteran, mastermode content, all of the same things just at different difficulties.

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I mean sure, I don't think anyone would not care tools like this happen, My issue is when people want the MSG to gate unskilled people..or to make DF dungeons harder. I'm just like ehhhh?


Even if we add these tools. The player base won't gain skill. Because most players just play and have fun. They will not use it because they don't need it.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

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So in other words. You have nothing. I gave you respect by debating and telling you why I feel the way I do. Since you want to teach people. Let me teach you something. If you can't back up your claims, and run away from people who challenge you. Maybe you should learn basic social skills, before wanting other players to get good in a mmo. Being social is part of what MMO are, and you failed that test.



At post limit now time for bed.

every single of ralph's posts on the OF has been about "toxic tryhard elitists" and I thought that gimmick was over, but I guess he was just waiting for the right moment to make his comeback :')

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Giving you a chance to explain, and you can't even do it. At least I can explain myself and why I feel the way I do.

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No, nope nope I just simply do not feel like feeding you or your "wife" any additional attention beyond the occasional heckling you disserve. It is kinda losing its fun and has become sad, like dueling with a small kitten.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

How do you know they're performing at 15-20 compared to the entirety of the player base?

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Hmmm, I can only provide personal experience as I would not use things like Fflogs for this buuuuut I know when someone is underperforming within the duty. If my partner does a large pull (MT. Gulg pull of legends) and I eat my fairy three times and blow through four excogitations just to keep them alive I do not need fflogs or "third party software" to tell me something is incorrect. I can also see that the dps were using single target skills the whole time. I can then compile all of my experiences within the mind and draw conclusions by comparing smoother runs with sub optimal ones. The conclusion I reach? We will probably only do big pulls with family because the average player kinda.. stinks.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

The game is here for everyone to enjoy regardless of their skill level.

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This may work for single player games but it seldom ends well for multiplayer titles. Actually, it does not work well for single player games. I made a post three walls of herpa derp back explaining this process. The players craving a challenge leave, then the average "tries their best but is not the best" player leaves. Finally, finally the "casual" players grow bored and leave. It is a slow and painful death of a game and it will happen if the content is further dumbed down.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

objectives: "...Oh, play-time inflation that has no connection to or synergy with the story except to be the... 13th reason as of yet for me to cross the river above the Bannock. Great... I mean, I guess the area's pretty, sure, but... isn't this path of archery butts supposed to have some intent to it -- something in keeping with the lessons the prior dialogue hinted at?"

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Originally Posted by Faafetai

I would think they would just fix the early class quests to actually allow for you to test abilities to know what they do rather than kill opo opos a million times and light a torch to summon more opo opos, this just taught me someone on the dev team really hated opo opos for some reason.

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Mmmmhmmmm! It was most amusing listening to family members rant about this! :D
There are some quests that attempt this and it causes sadness that more do not. The first gunbreaker quest teaches you tank swapping, off tank mechanics, watching for adds and numerous other tanking concepts even cooldown management!!

The scholar quests are also fantastic! They teach the importance of Esuna and later scholar quests even have you enter dungeons with ai party members. My only issue with this is they should be placed in your party kinda like the squad and trusts are.

The summoner is another class that will swiftly teach you the importance of mechanics and deeps player's roll in performing them. Half of summoner missions are epic boss fights with mechanics it is cray cray.

There is but oneeeee tiny itty bitty problem.. Square added easy mode so now they fail to fulfil their intended purpose of teaching. Fail? Just slap that bad boy on very easy and steamroll to victory. Everybody gets a medal.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

Games are designed for EVERYONE.
From people with disabilities to the hardcore players.

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You seem to be confused, I never said games arent for everyone, I said people whose ego is based on video game performance because they base their self worth on digital video game achievements are really unhealthy and toxic to any community, you can see that by simply the way they type and how much disdain they have about a few things such as "nerfing content" or making rewards more "accessible". The attitude and behavior of such people is really easy to detect exactly because their self worth is based on something so fragile and unstable.

Any kind of person can enjoy video games, the problem is some because they have no achievements in real life OBSESS over "hardcore" video game content and like to pretend as if they achieved some great real life achievement when literally the game is designed to be beaten, do you think a real opponent will give you a big safe area when they attack you? No the game is literally designed to be beaten, it isnt some ultra great glorious elite real life achievement, but because certain elitist depend on said achievements they have overhyped video game high end content to the point people think even WoW mythic raids are somekind of ultra hard sweaty content when the reality is it is simply harder heroic, not some epic life changing achievement.

These people are the problem and sadly they are many in the gaming community for obvious reasons.

And like i said previously, making utility useful aka making it stop you from dying shouldnt be considered making the content harder, if not using utility means you are dying, you are simply reminding people to use certain toolkit it is often ignored cuz 90% of mmorpg content is just shooting stuff.

If a game's content was 90% making the right choice in a puzzle and 10% was combat that didnt matter cuz even if you just pressed 1 button things would still die, of course people wouldnt bother to care much about combat and would mainly focus on solving puzzles. Reminding people of an aspect they rarely bother with shouldnt be considered making the game "harder".

People are starting to misconstrue the point trying to be discussed: Being new =/= being bad. We're angry at people that actively refuse to use their full loadout because they think they don't have to. We're not talking min-max speedrunning tactics; we're talking just doing basic rotations and mechanical understanding.

Our resident white knight is constantly saying that we only need 2-3 buttons to clear DF content and that the game is intended to work that way and is unable to prove it.

4 man content is the gate to the typically "harder," by his standard, 8 and 24 man content and says you only need more than 2-3 skills for that content only. Yet with this logic then why do we even have more than the 2-3 skills if the game is intended to be done that way?

The whole argument of this thread is about why people that only use 2-3 skills of their whole loadout in level 70+ content and refuse to do anything more than that are in the wrong since they're actively hindering the rest of the playerbase. We've had retorts of "let people play how they want" and how wanting someone to do their basic rotations and job mechanics in an even lazy fashion is being a "toxic elitist."

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Originally Posted by Kaylal

These 46 (so far) pages tell me that FFXIV has the same issues as other games when people with different ideas of "how the game should be played" end up in the same group. You get toxicity. And this is why I'm so uncomfortable doing group content. My personality type is that I don't handle confrontations well at all. If I don't group with others, I don't have to face that possibility, so when a game *requires* group content to continue the story line, I get all hesitant and have to pluck up the courage to dive into DF to get the dungeon done.

And that's why as a level 43 Dragoon I'm still stuck at Toto-Rak! I hasten to add that's no-one's fault except mine. What I'm hoping to do is demonstrate that sometimes it's not about the level of competence of the player, its about the comfort level and a person's own perception of their competence. Because there's no real way to see how well you're doing. And I don't have a clue how you could do that in-game without causing all sorts of other issues about expected performance from those other "elitist" players. Because those do exist...and I'm very much afraid I'm going to get one or two whenever I have to do group content.

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You should understand that the people frequenting the forums and the experiences they describe typically do not represent the attitude and experience of the average player. I levelled recently White Mage entirely through the Duty Finder and not once did I encounter those mythical beings in the OP, that couldn't figure left from right. Everyone was helpful and understanding when fails happened, people gave advice and guided groups successfully, gave sprout tanks the space to find their own speed etc. Vote kicks have gone out only to people that DC, and no one was stressing about completion times as long as the content was being done. The occasional wipe was never demoralizing and never did it lead to shouting matches throwing blame around.

You should not let the attitude of a fraction of a minority on the forums dissuade you from progressing your MSQ. If you're coming from WoW, you probably have expectations that the toxicity will be there 100% of the time from at least 1-2 players in the group, this is simply not the case here, and do not let this thread tell you otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Endariel

Just introduce the rating system at the end of the dungeons that will vary between 1 and 5 stars and will take into account an amalgamation of things: DPS, hps, overhealing, apm etc.
A very subtle way to indicate player's performance without introducing DPS meter

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"Screenshots, or you're lying." [Typical response to PF request that says 'Only 4-5 stars need apply' ... oh, wait, Yoshi P has already said that's what they want to avoid.]

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

every single of ralph's posts on the OF has been about "toxic tryhard elitists" and I thought that gimmick was over, but I guess he was just waiting for the right moment to make his comeback :')

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I wish the research I had done, did not make this super clear in one second why someone may be salty, such as they. There are other datacenters out there, with similar like-minded individuals Ralph, there is still time for you to make the switch to Crystal.