Roleplay/Partyfinder Discrepancies & Policy Enforcement by GM's

That's who I'm talking about, if you get gaol'd by him for it, report him right there. While in the gaol.

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Originally Posted by Skyler_Magus

This here is relevant:
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/420425

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Interesting how that turned around. There's a comment from Nin_Ocho where they rescind their earlier appreciation on account.

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Originally Posted by FelisDarwin

You have time to look that up but can't find the section of the ToS that covers how to use the Party Finder. Still. Gee I wonder why?

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You're welcome to dig that one up yourself.

It’s also pretty contradictory since, y’know, they have their own feedback pages on the forums. Is it only meant for praise? Like, what even is the point, then?

I'm honestly shocked at what has happened. No wonder I log on to the game today and see such an explosion occurring in PF.

There has always been an RP community and from my experience, the players who participate in RP have mostly abided to the ToS, careful to not bother others with their preferences to RP. I never found them to be "cluttering/abusing" PF. In fact, like many others have stated, Gil/Content sales have always been worse at cluttering up PF.

The suggestion of using fellowships is a terrible idea. I tried one out and honestly... it is a poorly implemented system. Neigh impossible to really do much coordinating with.

Forcing the group to utilize 3rd party programs such as discord should also not be a solution.

Honestly, I personally think the best thing to do is just create another tab in PF specific to RP. They allow in game RP tags for people and FC's so why not in party finder as well?

(Speaking as a long-time player since 1.0 days.)

Lady, are you running for president? That was such an inspiring speech i almost gave in.

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

I will once again say there is no need for discussing alternatives, we need to call into question this GM's actions and bring them to light of the development team to get a resolution on this.

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I say there is a need. As, clearly, there is not a suitable alternative >yet made<, and stomping feet on the same discussion that has clearly gone nowhere for, now, 46 pages.

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

They're referring to the fact people are criticizing the GM involved; myself included (though I have edited my replies).
It's a bannable offense which is really laughable to read as it implies they're saying they are above reproach or criticism, which is a really bad look.

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Oh I know, I'm just reminding them that they said:

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I am quite concerned with a lot of the flak this GM is getting for just doing their job. All they are doing is enforcing the ToS, and, for the most part, just giving warnings. Acting on legitimate reports. Letting people know the PF isn't for advertising "venues" in general, it's for running content.

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And yet have not, as such, shown any proof that the ToS actually prohibits this despite being asked. 'cause it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Reinard

You're welcome to dig that one up yourself.

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Yeah, assign me homework. That's the same as proof, right?

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Originally Posted by RanRanTheCat

Lady, are you running for president? That was such an inspiring speech i almost gave in.

I say there is a need. As, clearly, there is not a suitable alternative >yet made<, and stomping feet on the same discussion that has clearly gone nowhere for, now, 46 pages.

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The only alternative people would have is some sort of discord, aka a third party tool assisting communication. This entire issue stems from one GM not even understanding the point of PF, every possible type of content already has its own tab in PF, RP just falls under "Other" because well, its not instance based content.

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Originally Posted by Skyler_Magus

It’s also pretty contradictory since, y’know, they have their own feedback pages on the forums. Is it only meant for praise? Like, what even is the point, then?

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I think you're fine criticizing or naming them, but insulting them is probably a good way to catch a ban even if you're right.

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

It is, actually. Yoshida himself has referred to RP as "player-made content."
RP features include- Housing, gpose, explore mode, fashion accessories, perform, emotes, fellowships and a dedicated RolePlay status, with more to likely come.

Yoshi P has said numerous times that they shifted part of their development cycle to further expanding the RP capabilities of FFXIV to make it a world people can "live in," this GMs actions fly in the face of this direction and I'm still baffled by how many people in this thread have replied in support of their personal crusade.

They have a personal personal agenda.

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That's my point. It's absolutely content. It's a weird take for the GM to have. I'm willing to give them them the benefit of the doubt that think it's just some weird take on Terms of Service and not some personal crusade they have... Since sometimes, people do get weird takes on rules that aren't intended.

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Originally Posted by RanRanTheCat

Lady, are you running for president? That was such an inspiring speech i almost gave in.

I say there is a need. As, clearly, there is not a suitable alternative >yet made<, and stomping feet on the same discussion that has clearly gone nowhere for, now, 46 pages.

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I deal with far too much personal anxiety to ever hope to have a chance at holding any form of tangible authority in any respect. Appreciate the compliment though.
Regardless, I think the best we can do is ask for an RP tab to be added to PF or for Fellowship Finder to be expanded to directly resemble PF rather than what it currently is.

The issue is that any alternatives we do discuss, if they make a difference, would need to be implemented in game to avoid the burden being put upon players to circumvent or avoid the game's systems; as well as GM-bias, when organizing events and other social gatherings/content in game. It's just a really strange situation that I doubt any of us expected to ever be a problem.

Edit: I suppose I have been rather harsh in my criticisms, though I have rescinded/edited the two "insults" I made.
(Though idiot is so innocuous of an insult that it's more used in jest or casual criticism nowadays, better safe than sorry I guess? Goodness knows someone probably reported both instances of me saying it. I'll probs catch a forum ban for it.)

I will give the benefit of doubt and entertain the idea that perhaps they are misinterpreting ToS to the extreme.

It still doesn't mean we should not criticize the actions or bring light to them, especially at the risk of more people falling victim.

*Looking at my post on Wyndallus’s feedback page*

Here’s hoping! (≧▽≦)

Discord is alright and all that.. but what about the people who play on console.. are they to be left to the wayside?
A genuine question because i played this game for a year on my PS4.. only recently made the switch to pc..

I don't have a dog in this fight, but it would make sense to me to add an 'RP' section in the PF and let people create their groups in there.


Then maybe the GMs can move on to more important things, like going after the idiots who use the 'Duty Roulette' section of the PF to advertise selling of content and to "contact me on Discord at <username#1234>"... those listings are DEFINITELY breaking the rules more than a simple RP group is.

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Originally Posted by DreadCrow

That's my point. It's absolutely content. It's a weird take for the GM to have. I'm willing to give them them the benefit of the doubt that think it's just some weird take on Terms of Service and not some personal crusade they have... Since sometimes, people do get weird takes on rules that aren't intended.

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It's when they took action against the guy looking for a fishing buddy that got me. Fishing is definitively in-game content and doing it with someone can be both enjoyable and beneficial (pooling resources, whatnot).

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Originally Posted by RanRanTheCat

So if anything, this thread should have been 43 pages of discussions on the way of trying to find an alternative, even if i doubt that there is such an alternative in the game at the moment, as fellowship system is quite not ready for such an influx of players advertising their venues, and shouting in major cities can lead to spam, which can get you in trouble. Then again, even i dont know some things this game can offer in social regards, so probably there is a way.

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I don't have a major horse in this race as I've never used PF to hunt for anything other than game content, but I also don't think it's unreasonable for people to want more clarity on:

1) Why was there an abrupt shift in policy in regards to the PF after the "Other" tab being used a certain way for years? Where is it documented?
2) Why isn't the policy being executed consistently across the board for all the other non-content based things folks use the "Other" tab for such as selling gear/mounts/etc?

People aren't getting that clarity - thus the massive number of pages of speculative discussion.

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Originally Posted by Sevrin_Blaine

Discord is alright and all that.. but what about the people who play on console.. are they to be left to the wayside?
A genuine question because i played this game for a year on my PS4.. only recently made the switch to pc..

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Discord has a mobile app. But again, 3rd party apps like Discord should not be the answer to something that isn't even a problem in the first place, and has been going on for years without incident until now.

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

I deal with far too much personal anxiety to ever hope to have a chance at holding any form of tangible authority in any respect. Appreciate the compliment though.
Regardless, I think the best we can do is ask for an RP tab to be added to PF or for Fellowship Finder to be expanded to directly resemble PF rather than what it currently is.

The issue is that any alternatives we do discuss, if they make a difference, would need to be implemented in game to avoid the burden being put upon players to circumvent or avoid the game's systems; as well as GM-bias, when organizing events and other social gatherings/content in game. It's just a really strange situation that I doubt any of us expected to ever be a problem.

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There we go. I personally think it was about time Fellowships were updated and expanded, and while i do understand that I may not mind using third party resources for such an agenda, there are people that do mind, and they might go "yuck" when they hear about it. RP tab would probably be the best, and easiest solution, really, since all of the icons are in the game already.
But here's a hot take - i dont think anything is actually going to happen with it before 6.0 arrives, as implementing these things need direct attention of a developer, on which GM's have no rule over, so i really dont know if that GM thought of backlash. Bet they're in a pinch right now because of it

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Originally Posted by RanRanTheCat

i really dont know if that GM thought of backlash. Bet they're in a pinch right now because of it

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Good.

I don't know if SE still follows the 3-strikes and you're out rule (I assume they do) but people have permanent marks on their accounts now because of this.

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Originally Posted by Yencat

Good.

I don't know if SE still follows the 3-strikes and you're out rule (I assume they do) but people have permanent marks on their accounts now because of this.

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They do. Three strikes, fourth infraction is either a suspension or permanent ban depending on severity usually.
If suspension, then any violations after (in game) are a permanent termination of the service account.

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Originally Posted by Hezkezl

I don't have a dog in this fight, but it would make sense to me to add an 'RP' section in the PF and let people create their groups in there.


Then maybe the GMs can move on to more important things, like going after the idiots who use the 'Duty Roulette' section of the PF to advertise selling of content and to "contact me on Discord at <username#1234>"... those listings are DEFINITELY breaking the rules more than a simple RP group is.

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Why not both? I’d be perfectly fine with runsellers getting the boot along with the brothels.

If they just say “rp groups are fine but 18+ isn’t” then you’d get a gilspammer-like cycle of “avoid using these words to dodge the filter.” The sfw ads would actually become nsfw speakeasies.

It’s actually a lot more fair to boot the sellers, the brothels, and the inns all at once. We’ve only seen the latter two get nastygrams, but that doesn’t mean the content sellers aren’t on the naughty list.

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Originally Posted by Yencat

Good.

I don't know if SE still follows the 3-strikes and you're out rule (I assume they do) but people have permanent marks on their accounts now because of this.

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I honestly hope if backlash is big enough, these may get reverted, since this is pretty unfair and is, breaking the rules.

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Originally Posted by RanRanTheCat

i really dont know if that GM thought of backlash. Bet they're in a pinch right now because of it

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I mean I don’t really want this GM to get fired or anything, and I hope everyone else feels the same way. He is, however, causing a lot of issues at the moment, and none of it really needed to happen.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Why not both? I’d be perfectly fine with runsellers getting the boot along with the brothels.

If they just say “rp groups are fine but 18+ isn’t” then you’d get a gilspammer-like cycle of “avoid using these words to dodge the filter.” The sfw ads would actually become nsfw speakeasies.

It’s actually a lot more fair to boot the sellers, the brothels, and the inns all at once. We’ve only seen the latter two get nastygrams, but that doesn’t mean the content sellers aren’t on the naughty list.

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But what about the fisherman who was doing in-game content? Did he deserve the boot?

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Why not both? I’d be perfectly fine with runsellers getting the boot along with the brothels.

If they just say “rp groups are fine but 18+ isn’t” then you’d get a gilspammer-like cycle of “avoid using these words to dodge the filter.” The sfw ads would actually become nsfw speakeasies.

It’s actually a lot more fair to boot the sellers, the brothels, and the inns all at once. We’ve only seen the latter two get nastygrams, but that doesn’t mean the content sellers aren’t on the naughty list.

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We get it, an RP'er deeply hurt you somehow and you never quite got over it lmao

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Originally Posted by RanRanTheCat

I honestly hope if backlash is big enough, these may get reverted, since this is pretty unfair and is, breaking the rules.

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Yes, I don't even RP so I'm not involved or affected by this at all but this is way too severe.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

The correct method as was mentioned I believe is moving those things to the Fellowship function. The RP crowd should take it upon themselves to collectively move their stuff over there so PF can stay what it was meant to be.

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That's not the actual function of fellowships, though. Fellowships are for communities, not advertisement, and the function was dead on arrival. Partially because of the obscene amount of adult content littering the list of fellowships which to this day goes unfiltered.

I'd honestly love to see a complete restructuring of GM protocol and to have the rules, GM Policy and ToS laid out to us in an easy to digest manner that isn't dependent on a personal biases and individual interpretation.

The funniest part about all this is it could be ToS and we just don't see it as the ToS itself says that GM Policy is proprietary information and will not be revealed to the players—completely invalidating everything said in the ToS as we have no idea what the actual policies are as they refuse to make them public.

The current system is a headache for players when we have to tip-toe around everything because as many GMs have said "everything is bannable in the right context." It makes socializing and interacting with others in a MMO seem really dodgy and dangerous, which is the exact opposite of what it should be.

Honestly the bigger issue over weather or not fellowships should be expanded or if these types of advertisements should be allowed in party finder is if any of these players in the screenshots received black marks for this nonsense.

In an abysmally draconian system of "3 strikes and youre out with no questions", you get a black mark over this?!?!

This sets a extremely dangerous precedent as a symptom of years of inconsistent rule enforcement with the added fact that GMs in this game have a reputation moreso in any other game for being uncontrolled, whimsical, and contradictory is such a massive problem because these players are now stuck with a black mark FOREVER.

A GM like the one this entire thread is about playing fast and loose with the rules with absolutely no system in place for an appeals process should literally frighten everyone. It doesnt matter if you raid, craft, RP, whatever. The fact that you can be held to account eternally for anything a GM thinks youve done wrong is a hilarious situation that should be addressed immediately.

I don't really weigh in much or that often on stuff until I feel like it's important. This seems important, but I'm not entirely sure I understand why there's a "YEAH, BAN THOSE RPERS" camp? It's probably been suggested, but why not just add a RP filter to the party finder and call it a day? Or if that's too much effort, just live and let live? Or, if you have to do something, clarify to death exactly what can and cannot be put in the PF. If you're worried about the optics of ERPers, sure, say you can't post that. Will people get around that with clever wordplay? Sure - like they do in real life. But punishing the entire RP community because some people are very overt in their preferred reasons for playing just seems draconian.

tl;dr : why not live and let live?
or failing that
why not add rp tag to party finder?

Genuinely curious.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

A GM like the one this entire thread is about playing fast and loose with the rules with absolutely no system in place for an appeals process should literally frighten everyone. It doesnt matter if you raid, craft, RP, whatever. The fact that you can be held to account eternally for anything a GM thinks youve done wrong is a hilarious situation that should be addressed immediately.

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Exactly. This is the biggest issue with the whole situation.
GM policy is hidden from players, we have no idea what the actual criteria they make their judgements upon is, that's wrong.

This leads to uncertainty and anxiety to build up in the community and seeing a GM act out in a way like this on supposed ToS violations which may or may not be part of the "proprietary moderation policy" is really alarming. The whole system needs to be re-evaluated from top to bottom to be fair towards players and the moderation staff in equal measure, as the current form the system takes is draconian and absolute—which isn't the way to run a service like this.

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Originally Posted by Yencat

Good.

I don't know if SE still follows the 3-strikes and you're out rule (I assume they do) but people have permanent marks on their accounts now because of this.

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It is my understanding that they do, which is one of the greatest issues with this. Permanent markings over a GM's poorly judgement.

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

Exactly. This is the biggest issue with the whole situation.
GM policy is hidden from players, we have no idea what the actual criteria they make their judgements upon is, that's wrong.

This leads to uncertainty and anxiety to build up in the community and seeing a GM act out in a way like this on supposed ToS violations which may or may not be part of the "proprietary moderation policy" is really alarming. The whole system needs to be re-evaluated from top to bottom to be fair towards players and the moderation staff in equal measure, as the current form the system takes is draconian and absolute—which isn't the way to run a service like this.

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When you have players outright afraid to interact with others due to fear of potential retribution due to an increasing reliance on abusing the report system, in a MMORPG, you have absolutely failed cataclysmically.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

As if a tab for non-game content (sometimes with lurid details attached) doesn’t already alienate people from a T-rated game and put SE in a bad light.

This is simply Square cleaning up the seedy part of town.

Why does Square even need to say “don’t post adult content publicly in the 13+ game?” They smack people with bans for merely using naughty words elsewhere, so why is this a surprise?

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Eulmore has a strip club. Thats all im going to say

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

Exactly. This is the biggest issue with the whole situation.
GM policy is hidden from players, we have no idea what the actual criteria they make their judgements upon is, that's wrong.

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Honestly, if SE just wrote a cut and dry ToS that couldn't be interpreted in 20 different ways, we wouldn't even need to see the GM policy.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Eulmore has a strip club. Thats all im going to say

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Se can also make npcs say things players would get banned for.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

We can nuke the brothels in the T rated game though.

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This isn't about brothels. By all means, ban adult venues from being advertised the way that they are banned from being advertised through the event calendars the RP community uses (that way little Jimmy who is 14 and wants to play his warrior of light doesn't wind up going to some shady smut event by accident) but that isn't the problem: the problem is RP venues such as cafes, restaurants, adventuring hub among other types of totally SFW RP hubs are blanket banned and can no longer advertise for fear of getting permanent black strikes on their accounts. I'm a member of the RP community on Crystal and I'm just as annoyed about brothels being advertised on PF as I am people having occasionally super nasty search infos (I'm talking some straight gross, fetishy stuff RIGHT in the search info).

The party finder requires a 'market' and a 'roleplay' flag IMO.

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Originally Posted by Aslae

It's much easier to avoid a pf advertisement than all of us RP'ers shouting in city chat.

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For real!! Like even then THAT can be seen as a "Nuisance behavior" and goes contradictory to what this GM is implying that people do! It is much more annoying to be spammed in shout chat with many an advertisement for a club or something than going into a PF. People go into PF to look for one specific piece of content. They know they will find that content in a specific tab. RP venue ads in "Other" is totally fine. SE needs to get their management in shape and come to an agreement on what certain things can and cannot be done.

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Originally Posted by Taytay

Honestly, if SE just wrote a cut and dry ToS that couldn't be interpreted in 20 different ways, we wouldn't even need to see the GM policy.

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Instead, we got the opposite, as just before they launched Shadowbringers, they rewrote the entire ToS and now we get extremely vague guidelines like below:

・Expressions that compel a playing style
・Expressions that attempt to unilaterally exclude someone from the game or content/community, etc.
(Except when in accordance with rules set by an administrator such as a Free Company Master)
・Expressions that contravene public order and morals
・Other expressions that are offensive to another person


???

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Originally Posted by van_arn

Se can also make npcs say things players would get banned for.

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And that sets your "but think of the children" argument on fire and tosses it out the window.