Suggestion as to how to get people to become healers.

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Originally Posted by Venjenz

Doesn't really go to what Yeol was talking about. A lot of healers NEVER GET TO THE RAID CONTENT where DPS is a must. Yeol's bullet list explains why. #1 (be patient) and #2 (be prepared for everything) sum it all up rather well. The community is not patient, and even more than the tank, healers have to be laser focused, johnny_on_the_spot just for healing, with the added expectation of proper DPS in between making sure nobody dies/wipes and they are managing MP. And oh by the way, the job is thankless.

DPS is not the problem. Cleric Stance is not the problem. How much DPS you parse on 24 player raids is not the problem. Yeol nailed the reasons people don't heal by listing those responsibilities of the role. Again, pay close attention to the first two.

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Never tried to argue with Yeol, rather I agree with her, I just piggy-backed her comment to show how healers we have at the moment are uninterested and have too much downtime.

There's tons of things they could do beyond just dpsing in their downtime. In past games healers were often also buffers. One of the problems that whm suffers is that it does not have player enhancement tools similar to astro or scholar (althought scholar mostly only has these skills on fairy). When is WHM getting haste or hastega? It could easily lower TP requirements by 20% or something to lower the TP demand of faster attacks.

I personally think healers should have had a buffering toolkit since back in 2.0 but only recently have we started to see some of that. Whm needs haste or hastega, maybe even a shell cast for a target party member that reduces magic damage by 10% for whatever duration. healers don't need to be dpsing only in their offtime, plenty of that time could be spent just keeping DoTs and buffs up. I know this would be met with alot of "Balancing issues" but devs won't know till they try. I honestly think they could meet the dps argument halfway and allow room for support dps via buffering the people who are aspost to be DPSing so they can better do their job. Would that raise the dps average for raids? Thats up to the devs as well.

I'm capable of stance dancing but I wouldn't mind it being taken away. It's amazing how one tiny ability can make so many people behave like complete jerks to others.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

There's tons of things they could do beyond just dpsing in their downtime. In past games healers were often also buffers. One of the problems that whm suffers is that it does not have player enhancement tools similar to astro or scholar (althought scholar mostly only has these skills on fairy). When is WHM getting haste or hastega? It could easily lower TPrequirements by 20% or something to lower the TP demand of faster attacks.

I personally think healers should have had a buffering toolkit since back in 2.0 but only recently have we started to see some of that. Whm needs haste or hastega, maybe even a shell cast for a target party member that reduces magic damage by 10% for whatever duration. healers don't need to be dpsing only in their offtime, plenty of that time could be spent just keeping DoTs and buffs up. I know this would be met with alot of "Balancing issues" but devs won't know till they try. I honestly think they could meet the dps argument halfway and allow room for support dps via buffering the people who are aspost to be DPSing so they can better do their job. Would that raise the dps average for raids? Thats up to the devs as well.

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-.-
They did in 1.0, then in 2.0 it was done though trait called proshell, then proshell was givin to all the healers, why would they put something back in the game they took out?

You are forgetting one thing, and something I bought up in my post, and why I said you need to completely change the game.

Then you are forgetting the skill level of other players. For example, expert takes 30-40 mins if I get 2 brds, even in i270 gear that only know how spam wide volly, me buffing them does not "fix" that dps loss, and the only way to help address that now with the game is now, is over burdening the healer with healing more and DPS more. With whm in particular this means constant OOM, but useless brds can help with that ofc by keep asking for ballad.

Ama I'm not arguing with you anymore even if you quote me. You're more stressful than its worth. The way you talk and everything just aint worth it, I'm sorry. I'd rather comment in regards to the other people in this thread just so you know.

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

I'm capable of stance dancing but I wouldn't mind it being taken away. It's amazing how one tiny ability can make so many people behave like complete jerks to others.

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ikr? see the post right above this one.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Healer DPS (and tank) is not configured into DPS requirements to clear fights, as mentioned by Yoshida- this includes Savage.

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Can we please stop using this misleading quote as an argument? When the content is in fact literally impossible to beat without healer DPS when it's added in the game, then the content does require healer DPS. It doesn't matter who says what and what kind of calculations have been made and when, when that is the fact.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

ikr? see the post right above this one.

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To be fair ama, you called me a troll first just for putting my opinion in this thread. I even apologized in my post for not wanting to argue with you. If I'm the jerk so be it.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

To be fair ama, you called me a troll first just for putting my opinion in this thread. I even apologized in my post for not wanting to argue with you. If I'm the jerk so be it.

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Take a deep breath and breathe. Turn a blind eye, its not worth it anymore.
/soothe

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Originally Posted by Venjenz

Doesn't really go to what Yeol was talking about. A lot of healers NEVER GET TO THE RAID CONTENT where DPS is a must. Yeol's bullet list explains why. #1 (be patient) and #2 (be prepared for everything) sum it all up rather well. The community is not patient, and even more than the tank, healers have to be laser focused, johnny_on_the_spot just for healing, with the added expectation of proper DPS in between making sure nobody dies/wipes and they are managing MP. And oh by the way, the job is thankless.

DPS is not the problem. Cleric Stance is not the problem. How much DPS you parse on 24 player raids is not the problem. Yeol nailed the reasons people don't heal by listing those responsibilities of the role. Again, pay close attention to the first two.

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To be fair, this is... somewhat disingenuous. Healers undoubtedly get blamed for a lot of stupid things, but in a world of FFLogs, the DPS are put on notice and frequently mocked; I dare say more so once you step into endgame content. Likewise, it's perfectly easy to be a lazy healer. I know plenty who openly admit they're watching Netflix or Youtube on their second monitor. If you scarcely DPS, healing in all non-progression content is an absolute breeze. That all said, I disagree Cleric's removal wouldn't open up people to healing. XIV is a heavily damaged focused game but only healers are punished for a miss-click. Would the volume increase in droves? Probably not, but I suspect more players would be willing to experiment without the risk/reward style gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

To be fair, this is... somewhat disingenuous. Healers undoubtedly get blamed for a lot of stupid things, but in a world of FFLogs, the DPS are put on notice and frequently mocked; I dare say more so once you step into endgame content. Likewise, it's perfectly easy to be a lazy healer. I know plenty who openlyadmit they're watching Netflix or Youtube on their second monitor. If you scarcely DPS, healing in all non-progression content is an absolute breeze. That all said, I disagree Cleric's removal wouldn't open up people to healing. XIV is a heavily damaged focused game but only healers are punished for a miss-click. Would the volume increase in droves? Probably not, but I suspect more players would be willing to experiment without the risk/reward style gameplay.

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Everyone is punished for a misclick, If you are a tank and click on say hallowed ground too late you die, if you misclick something as dps, your DPS plummets. So again I have to ask why is cleric stance the only thing that is routinely attacked on for?

Also I do not get this view "I suspect more players would be willing to experiment without the risk/reward style gameplay" How do you know people are even aware of it existing? When I started out I did not know about all this Community divide and did my own thing. I pick healer start out as and was like oh neat ill try this ability that adds more damage, oh I can help speed things along, kill things means less healing and people should be happy when things take less time. I do not see "risk/reward style gameplay" , what does that even mean? I do not see how there is a risk, using an instant ability when people are full hp and helping speed things along. Oh someone is approaching 1/2 hp despite fairy? I better take it off and cast one heal (omg i need cast a heal as a healer, what a shocker) then hit cleric stance as the spell finishes so there is no down time.

The thing is, even if we change the DPS to buffing thing, you can still apply the same logic 'what if someone dies while I cast buff on someone?' then you have full time healers anyway who will annoy others for not buffing them and slowing the run down.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Can we please stop using this misleading quote as an argument? When the content is in fact literally impossible to beat without healer DPS when it's added in the game, then the content does require healer DPS. It doesn't matter who says what and what kind of calculations have been made and when, when that is the fact.

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If you're saying Yoshida is lying to you, I don't know what to say to you. From looking at raid numbers, I see it completely possible- the enrage timers are pretty generous.
I'm also going off what was mentioned in either the Frankfurt live letter or the interview that was live directly afterward- PAX? I don't remember. This wasn't a misleading quote when it was officially translated.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

<good examples of games that don't have to deal with a healer dps meta>

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I don't understand how FFXIV can't seem to get this balance right. I didn't roll a healer to occasionally cast a heal and spend most of my time spamming three boring dps buttons. It's not like the content from these games (discounting EQ as I have no experience with it) is tremendously difficult at all levels. In WildStar, I'm generally always busy on my healers keeping up buffs, prepping for damage, adjusting positioning for better heals. TERA was the same - on both Mystic and Priest, there was plenty to do. Again, same in WoW... and Rift... the list goes on.

Once again I assert that we should not be looking for ways to cement the "healer dps" meta even further, but rather encourage SE to design content that asks healers to do more healing/buffing.

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Originally Posted by Miste

To be honest I would be kind of scared what would happen to the DF if they made regular content more healing intensive...not scared for myself as a healer...but for when I am NOT on healer :x

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Having played plenty of MMOs that do not have the weird healer dps meta... it's not that hard.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

If you're saying Yoshida is lying to you, I don't know what to say to you.

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Please don't try to put words in my mouth. :) Yoshida isn't lying, he's saying they're not considering healer DPS while tuning this content. But he's also saying the calculations are based on higher item level than what players have available when the content is added in the game. So if the players would play following that intention, they would not even try to beat the content when it's released. Hence, it doesn't make any sense to use this as an argument.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

From looking at raid numbers, I see it completely possible- the enrage timers are pretty generous.

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Look for parses from world first groups. I checked the A11S a while ago (it's available on YouTube) and they didn't have what it takes without healer DPS (A9S and A10S might be a different story - haven't checked - but they're exceptions to the general difficulty level anyway). And these are the best groups in the whole world. Not to mention how unfair it would be to actually expect your DPS and tank members to play at that level while saying it's completely fine for healers to leave a vital part of their toolkit out. :D

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

If you're saying Yoshida is lying to you, I don't know what to say to you. From looking at raid numbers, I see it completely possible- the enrage timers are pretty generous.I'm also going off what was mentioned in either the Frankfurt live letter or the interview that was live directly afterward- PAX? I don't remember. This wasn't a misleading quote when it was officially translated.

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That person is saying the quote is being misused and taken out of context. They calculate DPS based on standards people can't typically hit so the wiggle room is getting healer and tank to offset that. He even said that himself in the same quote that it is necessary for healer DPS when below the ilevel for the calculations. The dev always intended for healers to help in damage in group content, it is just people misquoting that quote to allow people to suit their narrative"I shouldn't have to dps as healer if yoshi - p says so"

Taika is correct, it is getting annoying how much people take that quote out of context. Also you need to understand, if they did factor healer DPS at min level, people would not be able clear the DPS checks on release, things will be too hard, THAT IS WHY THEY DO NOT FACTOR IT, has nothing to do with "devs did not intend healers to DPS"

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Originally Posted by Zojha

And this is where the issue lies: The double standard starts at the design level already.

What Yoshida is doing there is to expect DPS to pull 85-90% of their dummy performance potential in a live fight, while at the same time, asking healers and tanks to only pull 50-60% of their performance potential (conservative number).

This gap is what people ask healers and tanks to fill when they ask them to DPS as well. If the devs would ask healers and tanks to pull 85-90% of their theoretical performance potential as well, like they do for DPS

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Sorry, I don't think you're being entirely open with your phrasing here. You're not asking for healers to hit 85-90% of their performance potential, you're asking for them to do double duty and hit that 85-90% of dummy DPS performance - WHILE HEALING. That requires the healer to be doing a bit more than just hitting dummy damage. If you want Healers to pull double duty in that regard, then IMHO DPS (including yours) need to be in the upper 90s percent wise vs their dummy performance.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Can we please stop using this misleading quote as an argument? When the content is in fact literally impossible to beat without healer DPS when it's added in the game, then the content does require healer DPS. It doesn't matter who says what and what kind of calculations have been made and when, when that is the fact.

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Can we please stop using old, no-longer-applicable examples that the devs themselves admitted were overdone (Yes, Gordias. Let's not beat around the bush) to support counterargument? A major reason Accuracy was removed from healer gear was due to the fact that they designed Heavensward content (again, Gordias apparently being the one unintended exception) with necessary damage calculations to clear as if Healer dps contribution was zero. This was very much stated fact.

Taika is correct though. You won't be clearing Savage content in the early months without decent healer DPS. It's a way different story when you are overgeared at i270 and adding in 15% echo now.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

The amount of conjecture in this post is stifling.

Also, 9 times out of 10, a tank dying to a tank buster isn't a healer issue. It's a failure to properly mitigate with a cooldown issue.

But anyways continue painting with that broad brush. Let's see how ridiculous this topic gets before the 22nd.

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No, The amount of likes I got versus yours says I'm not being ridciulous. It's the truth.

If you actually healed A12S successfully you'd know that even a pro-tank mitigating the incinerating heat buster, that there is also a cleave either before or afterwards most of the time. That is where my 90% HP and healer being unaware comment comes from. Then they will die to an auto-attack if they don't get healed just in-time after the mitigated hit.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

Everyone is punished for a misclick, If you are a tank and click on say hallowed ground too late you die, if you misclick something as dps, your DPS plummets. So again I have to ask why is cleric stance the only thing that is routinely attacked on for?

Also I do not get this view "I suspect more players would be willing to experiment without the risk/reward style gameplay" How do you know people are even aware of it existing? When I started out I did not know about all this Community divide and did my own thing. I pick healer start out as and was like oh neat ill try this ability that adds more damage, oh I can help speed things along, kill things means less healing and people should be happy when things take less time. I do not see "risk/reward style gameplay" , what does that even mean? I do not see how there is a risk, using an instant ability when people are full hp and helping speed things along. Oh someone is approaching 1/2 hp despite fairy? I better take it off and cast one heal (omg i need cast a heal as a healer, what a shocker) then hit cleric stance as the spell finishes so there is no down time.

The thing is, even if we change the DPS to buffing thing, you can still apply the same logic 'what if someone dies while I cast buff on someone?' then you have full time healers anyway who will annoy others for not buffing them and slowing the run down.

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By relative comparison. A healer getting locked into lock can easily wipe the entire raid if their co-healer cannot quickly adjust. A DPS fat-fingering their combo means little in the grand scheme of things.

I don't, hence my phrasing. But reading your tooltips makes it easy enough to figure out. You'll inevitably hear advice from other players. People unaware of their abilities by level 60 are bad players regardless of the job they play. That isn't an excuse. And it's really simple to determine pressing a button that completely gimps your healing capabilities promotes a risk/reward style. If Cleric locks due to the cooldown or it gets accidentally double tapped, people are almost certainly dead.

Then you need to time your casts better. If I mistime Holmgang and die to a buster, I have to correct that mistake next time. It happens. Dust yourself have and go again.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Can we please stop using old, no-longer-applicable examples that the devs themselves admitted were overdone (Yes, Gordias. Let's not beat around the bush) to support counterargument?

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I used A11S as an example... Talking about raid content doesn't get much fresher than that.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Please don't try to put words in my mouth. :) Yoshida isn't lying, he's saying they're not considering healer DPS while tuning this content. But he's also saying the calculations are based on higher item level than what players have available when the content is added in the game. So if the players would play following that intention, they would not even try to beat the content when it's released. Hence, it doesn't make any sense to use this as an argument.

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Actually, Yoshida pointed out that it was attuned for the current ilevel of the gear. If Sophia EX drops and the current ilevel is i380, the fight is tuned to i380. You might need healer and tank DPS for minimum ilevel, which he even mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Look for parses from world first groups. I checked the A11S a while ago (it's available on YouTube) and they didn't have what it takes without healer DPS (A9S and A10S might be a different story - haven't checked - but they're exceptions to the general difficulty level anyway). And these are the best groups in the whole world. Not to mention how unfair it would be to actually expect your DPS and tank members to play at that level while saying it's completely fine for healers to leave a vital part of their toolkit out. :D

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As it as been pointed out before, by Yoshida and the other members of the team, world first groups are exceptional players that push to clear content ASAP and are by no means the majority of players. This includes pushing and clearing content before intended gear. You're saying the world first had to have their healers DPS to complete the content without waiting for increased gear (this is where I point to minimum ilevel requirement healer DPS might be required quote from Yoshida). World first parties are also actually learning the fight and there are far more things going on than simply 'how much DPS can you do?'

A11S is a weird fight to judge by as it's a mistake-punishing fight. Mistakes mean tower die quicker and drastically shorten how much time you have to kill the boss before the stage breaks.

Example: World First A12S clear was killed 2 minutes ahead of the enrage timer. (11:36 second kill- enrage is 13:30)

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Originally Posted by technole

No, The amount of likes I got versus yours says I'm not being ridciulous. It's the truth.

If you actually healed A12S successfully you'd know that even a pro-tank mitigating the incinerating heat buster, that there is also a cleave either before or afterwards most of the time. That is where my 90% HP and healer being unaware comment comes from. Then they will die to an auto-attack if they don't get healed just in-time after the mitigated hit.

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OH So, likes versus lack there of totally determines how valid someone's points are now? On THIS forum?

Well, any possible logical discussion really hit a brick wall here. That's that, I guess.

P.S. I solo healed most of A12S because my SCH off healer was DPSing most of it. I'm well aware how and when to heal my tanks, thanks.

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Originally Posted by Taika

I used A11S as an example... Talking about raid content doesn't get much fresher than that.

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Right. And 11S was THAT hard, was it? I had a feeling someone might use Creator Savage - the easiest tier of Alexander - as supporting argument. That's fine, and your point about clearing things at min. ilvl might seem valid, but let's not kid ourselves:

Does your whole party have to work harder to clear something at min. ilvl vs being fairly or max geared? Yes. Is it impossible to do? No. World and server first groups prove that repeatedly. Is everyone and every party on par with world/server first groups? Ha! No.

I'm not discouraging healer DPS. Never was. However ask yourselves, if it was so intended, so necessary, why would SE shoot healers in the foot and remove Accuracy from your gear entirely? That would be counterproductive to the cause, would it not?

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Having played plenty of MMOs that do not have the weird healer dps meta... it's not that hard.

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My point was that I've seen many healers in this game who don't DPS at all yet still struggle immensely and/or fail to heal content properly so even if I find healing easy there are some people where healing isn't so easy for them and if they made healing more intense well...I would be a bit scared to DF as something other than healer myself...D:

Sort of like when HW came and DPS jobs got more complicated....and you come across DPS doing 10% of the damage they should be doing then you get runs in DF dungeons taking over an hour :x

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Can we please stop using old, no-longer-applicable examples that the devs themselves admitted were overdone (Yes, Gordias. Let's not beat around the bush) to support counterargument? A major reason Accuracy was removed from healer gear was due to the fact that they designed Heavensward content (again,Gordias apparently being the one unintended exception) with necessary damage calculations to clear as if Healer dps contribution was zero. This was very much stated fact.

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I disagree with this over the fact there was some hw 60 dungeons that had accuracy checks that was later removed due to lacking accuracy on gear. oversights are oversights, removing accuracy off gear is not proof for anything. The accuracy stat in this game is flawed in general and should not even exist in this game, using that as an arguments for something? please, invalided arguments are invalided. You also can't meld that gear, def proof of nothing.

Trying to validate "dev team never intended healers to DPS in group content" is a joke and something that is trying to be spread around by people with some grievance of habit (healers should only heal) because people resist change and hate change and hate something being different.

Before words are put in my mouth I wanna repeat my stance, I honestly do not care about healer DPS, it is just there to do, to do something. I would not mind having more biff options and so on, but if the game is changed in such a drastic way, dps better be made a hell lot easier so i am not spending 40 mins in expert because DPS rotations are too hard.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

By relative comparison. A healer getting locked into lock can easily wipe the entire raid if their co-healer cannot quickly adjust. A DPS fat-fingering their combo means little in the grand scheme of things.

I don't, hence my phrasing. But reading your tooltips makes it easy enough to figure out. You'll inevitably hear advice from other players. People unaware of their abilities by level 60 are bad players regardless of the job they play. That isn't an excuse. And it's really simple to determine pressing a button that completely gimps your healing capabilities promotes a risk/reward style. If Cleric locks due to the cooldown or it gets accidentally double tapped, people are almost certainly dead.

Then you need to time your casts better. If I mistime Holmgang and die to a buster, I have to correct that mistake next time. It happens. Dust yourself have and go again.

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Me no, I do not need time anything better, you can put that advice on people that can't handle cleric though. Even with your post I STILL do not understand why healer makes mistake, we need change cleric stance, tank makes mistake, tank needs git gud. You still did not explain that, did not answer my point. Everyone still wipes if a DPS mishits something and because of that, fails DPS check. So tank messes up = gid gud, DPS mess up = git gud, healer messes up= we need to baby them and make it easier because why now?

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

You might need healer and tank DPS for minimum ilevel, which he even mentioned.

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Not might, you will for most of actual raid content. Which is exactly why it's misleading to say "fights are tuned so that you don't need healer DPS to beat them". Because it's simply not true when they're first added to the game and the players don't have access to higher item levels. And world first groups being exceptional players is also exactly my point: when even they need healer DPS to beat that content, it's definitely required - and especially for average teams. And not DPSing as a healer in average group increases the DPS requirements from your DD and tank players more and more towards that world first level - which is unfair, when the healer gets to slack.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Sorry, I don't think you're being entirely open with your phrasing here.

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You're just misunderstanding it.

I'm saying performance potential, not DPS potential for a reason. For DPS, performance potential largely equals DPS potential. Healers and Tanks have to heal and mitigate/keep aggro, but they can also add DPS beyond that. So their performance potential includes not just their mitigation/healing, but also any DPS they could add after meeting the heal/mitigation checks, not the DPS they could pull on a dummy with no concern to their primary function.

If I was assuming what you think I am assuming, I'd have to give Yoshidas assumption for healers 0% of their performance potential and tanks around 20%, because he doesn't assume "any" DPS for healers and only autoattack + aggro combo for tanks. I didn't, I gave them around 50-60% precisely because I am already accounting for their main job in my guess.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Actually, Yoshida pointed out that it was attuned for the current ilevel of the gear. If Sophia EX drops and the current ilevel is i380, the fight is tuned to i380. You might need healer and tank DPS for minimum ilevel, which he even mentioned.

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A11S/A12S minimum ilvl was i255 if you needed to use raid finder during the released period without a full remade. Now imagine how many people today at their current skill level couldn't clear such content at that ilvl? Let alone without healer DPS.

World and even top-server clears require healer DPS, you can even watch Angered or Elysium's Creator Savage clear videos and see players like Ella, Ayesha, Kio, and Vana all taking advantage of healer DPS whenever possible. There isn't a single GCD they are standing around doing nothing. Just that alone is quite a skill gap between good DPS healers and the bottom of the barrel that stand around wasting GCDs, and they are doing this at barely i255. If you notice they cleared A12S just right after second bleed. There are "clear" parties today that can't even skip first or second at i270.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Can we please stop using this misleading quote as an argument? When the content is in fact literally impossible to beat without healer DPS when it's added in the game, then the content does require healer DPS. It doesn't matter who says what and what kind of calculations have been made and when, when that is the fact.

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When it's added into the game, people don't know yet what and how to do it. That's why content is harder than it actually is. You don't need to have your healer DPS to pass the content, but you may be able to fail and get a party wipe without the healer DPS'ing. Neither is mutually exclusive, because there are more aspects to clearing content than just DPS and HPS. Vault is example of that. People may clear it time and again, then they'll get dropped into a party that is what it is...and they won't be able to do it. Why?! Not because of stats. Previous parties may have had worse gear. But because knowing what to do and when is important. Healer DPS'ing may make it easier by shortening the difficult phases and may make the difference between a failure and a success, yes. But that means only that the DPS are failing in THEIR job, for lack of knowledge or skills. Or because they have crap gear that boosts their item level without actually boosting their stats, like caster accessories on a tank...

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Originally Posted by Naunet

In WildStar, I'm generally always busy on my healers keeping up buffs, prepping for damage, adjusting positioning for better heals. (...)
Once again I assert that we should not be looking for ways to cement the "healer dps" meta even further, but rather encourage SE to design content that asks healers to do more healing/buffing.

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The problem here is that healers hardly are "buffers". White mage have only three buffs that do not heal (one of which is just a time-saving version of the other, hence no need to count Stoneskin II dropping it to two). But Protect is "cast and forget"...until someone dies...and Stoneskin is a buff between fights. In a fight, healing is cheaper and is going to restore more HP than Stoneskin will substitute. For Scholars, it's Sacred Soil (from which players frequently run away and which is restricted by aetherflow), Eye for an Eye...which Summoners have as well...Galvanize which is always bound to healing spells so doesn't even count...and pet buffs. Sure, one pet have two buffs and the other have one, but they they can't exactly fill any downtime...nor are they something you do on the downtime since you can use them mid-cast.

If healers had actual buffs that have short durations, low-to-no recast, and low enough MP costs to actually be cast one after another, I'm pretty sure they would be used instead of DPS. 10% decrease in damage received by party member for 10sec? Cool. 20% increase in damage by party member for 10sec with 10sec cooldown?! Good as well. Heck, there are some games where healers can restore more than just HP, but also MP (their own as well as others, but only others would be enough as well) or stamina (well, TP in this game).

Making this game have more threatening, Esuna'ble debuffs would be good too. Most of the pesky debuffs cannot be healed (Toad, Petrification, various Vulnerabilities etc.), while many of those that can, are irrelevant (many poisons). There are few that are good to remove (Paralyze, Doom, Slow etc.), but they obviously can't be constantly used by every enemy the party comes across...

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Having played plenty of MMOs that do not have the weird healer dps meta... it's not that hard.

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To be fair, in many of those games, healers are plain useless OUTSIDE of their healing/buffs. And that means that they are either leveled in a party, or not at all, and they have a horrid time doing anything, even content they severely outlevel, without someone helping them. It is not always the case, but frequently. Then there are games where, like here, healers often attack and healing time competes with that.

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Originally Posted by technole

A11S/A12S minimum ilvl was i255 if you needed to use raid finder during the released period without a full remade. Now imagine how many people today at their current skill level couldn't clear such content at that ilvl? Let alone without healer DPS.

World and even top-server clears require healer DPS, you can even watch Angered or Elysium's Creator Savage clear videos and see players like Ella, Ayesha, Kio, and Vana all taking advantage of healer DPS whenever possible. There isn't a single GCD they are standing around doing nothing. Just that alone is quite a skill gap between good DPS healers and the bottom of the barrel that stand around wasting GCDs, and they are doing this at barely i255. If you notice they cleared A12S just right after second bleed. There are "clear" parties today that can't even skip first or second at i270.

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It's a bit of a derailment, I wanted to point out that this post got no likes. . . so you're not right here?

I mean, you are (if anyone might be confused). I simply wanted to point out how ludicrous the idea of likes = truth/validity of statements are around here.

Not going to get into the healer should dps argument anymore as you cant change bad players minds but if they were to remove dpsing from healer they would need to make the healing requirement so much harder to compensate healers now having nothing to do 90% of fights and then you would have the same people who saying that healers should only heal only on forums complaining the job is too hard now because they cant watch netflix in the background anymore.

So its a no win scenario for SE and they should keep it as is but I really wish Yoshi p would come out and say something official on the matter regarding healer dps so we can end this argument once and for all.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

It's a bit of a derailment, I wanted to point out that this post got no likes. . . so you're not right here?

I mean, you are (if anyone might be confused). I simply wanted to point out how ludicrous the idea of likes = truth/validity of statements are around here.

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I agree with the like thing but I really like to point out I refuted your gear thing, did you just happen to forget you can't meld that gear? It is not really an argument for anything. Plus I do not think it was enough on its own anyway, you prob needed do a healer relic with accuracy on it like now (was not in endgame back then so no idea) I do know at 50 though having crafting gear to overmeld was really huge so accuracy could been off set with overmeld vit and acc on the right for healers.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Sorry, I don't think you're being entirely open with your phrasing here. You're not asking for healers to hit 85-90% of their performance potential, you're asking for them to do double duty and hit that 85-90% of dummy DPS performance - WHILE HEALING. That requires the healer to be doing a bit more than just hitting dummy damage. If you want Healers to pull double duty in that regard, then IMHO DPS (including yours) need to be in the upper 90s percent wise vs their dummy performance.

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Expecting healers and tanks to contribute damage isn't doubling their duty. A healer who doesn't DPS surrenders a third of their toolkit. Both roles have a significantly simplified "rotation" because they are essentially hybrids. I'll compare my White Mage, Warrior and Dragoon openers. Notice the difference? Admittedly, I left Warrior unfinished because I have to adjust based on the group. I'll usually prep another Eye combo and setup a triple Fell Cleave but sometimes I'll need to build aggro and etc. Point was to illustrate neither healer nor tank openers involve much unless you aim for pure optimization. Dragoon, on the other hand, need to execute properly or its damage plummets. As a dedicated DPS, they must focus and refine because the less damage they do the less likely you'll clear. After all, the fights are tuned around 90% of a DPS' output. That places the bulk of the pressure to actually killing the boss on four players knowing their rotation near perfectly. If I omitted Blood of the Dragoon, well, I'm losing a massive chunk of damage. Would that be okay because "it's hard to manage?" No other job can literally stand still and do nothing except healers nor can DPS ignore a portion of their toolkit and still be considered good.

Demanding 90%+ from your DPS before they can comment about other roles contributing damage is essentially expecting they have a nearly flawless performance while tanks and healers are not held to a comparable standard.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

The problem here is that healers hardly are "buffers".

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This suggests to me that the solution comes in a combination of designing fights that don't leave healers with tons of thumb-twiddling downtime, as well as adjusting healer jobs themselves so that they have a variety of tools beyond just "heal button" and "dps button". AST is a good step in the right direction, IMO, with the buff cards. Let's take it further. Give healers more support-related things to do instead of expecting them to dps. I really did not roll a healer to dps 70% of the time.

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Originally Posted by technole

A11S/A12S minimum ilvl was i255 if you needed to use raid finder during the released period without a full remade. Now imagine how many people today at their current skill level couldn't clear such content at that ilvl? Let alone without healer DPS.

World and even top-server clears require healer DPS, you can even watch Angered or Elysium's Creator Savage clear videos and see players like Ella, Ayesha, Kio, and Vana all taking advantage of healer DPS whenever possible. There isn't a single GCD they are standing around doing nothing. Just that alone is quite a skill gap between good DPS healers and the bottom of the barrel that stand around wasting GCDs, and they are doing this at barely i255. If you notice they cleared A12S just right after second bleed. There are "clear" parties today that can't even skip first or second at i270.

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Necessity is not the same as efficiency. You're talking about bonus damage, not absolutely required to clear it. Hence came my example of world first, which I re-address below.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Not might, you will for most of actual raid content. Which is exactly why it's misleading to say "fights are tuned so that you don't need healer DPS to beat them". Because it's simply not true when they're first added to the game and the players don't have access to higher item levels. And world first groups being exceptional players is also exactly my point: when even they need healer DPS to beat that content, it's definitely required - and especially for average teams. And not DPSing as a healer in average group increases the DPS requirements from your DD and tank players more and more towards that world first level - which is unfair, when the healer gets to slack.

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You're missing my point. The healers did 10% damage and they did it 2 minutes faster than required. I shouldn't have to explain the math. For healer DPS to actually matter, they would have needed to do over 20% and have to have other raid members making 0 mistakes. It goes without saying when DPS make a mistake, that's a DPS loss.

Again, you're all talking about world firsts. The quote was Yoshida said healer and tank DPS is not required (for tanks, past doing your aggro rotation only) to clear the content. They have a team literally go in and do the fights (invincible 'cause their aim is not to learn the fight, under the average ilevel designed at that time) and make sure the content is clear-able. Again, this was all discussed in Frankfurt or the interview at the convention after (not sure if it was PAX, I don't really keep up with those events).

No matter how you phrase it, it just comes across as "I know better than the director and developer, somehow, without any of the tools or data tables or anything other than a video of a clear with a fight of a vague enrage."

With that, I'm stepping out of the circular argument.

Until 3.2 and Midas, we couldn't meld tome or raid gear. So I understand where and how crafted gear kinda went the extra mile (despite generally being lower than its other endgame alternatives). Beyond that, healers were effectively gimped on being able to perform their secondary role. And I can't stress enough that it's secondary. Even if you're min ilvl, even if you're BiS, and even if you're attempting world/server first.

I am definitely not discouraging healer DPS. I am however all for making the healer's main stat their MAIN stat, and for those who want "complexity" let the content provide the challenge, rather than use of a switch choosing what I'll do/not do well in the moment.

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Originally Posted by Rita1989

Not going to get into the healer should dps argument anymore as you cant change bad players minds but if they were to remove dpsing from healer they would need to make the healing requirement so much harder to compensate healers now having nothing to do 90% of fights and then you would have the same people who saying that healers should only heal only on forums complaining the job is too hard now because they cant watch netflix in the background anymore.

So its a no win scenario for SE and they should keep it as is but I really wish Yoshi p would come out and say something official on the matter regarding healer dps so we can end this argument once and for all.

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A healer not dpsing does not inherently = bad. I say this from the POV of someone who determined (through a LOT of trial and error) that instead of trying to arbitrarily adhere to that idea, staying focused on my primary role predominantly and working in a little - very little - dps where I could, allowing my off-healer to spend 90% of the fight dpsing (she's a SCH, to no real surprise) works, because that's what works for my group and helps us clear. Are we the firsts in anything or setting any records? Probably not. Did we win and get shiny stuff? Hell yes. That's all that matters to me in the end.

As for any official statements: 7 more days.

You have to remember world-level progression involves a lot of wiping, and they work on a 12-16 hour schedule. So it's also about what can you do to see more of the fight as soon as you can so the raid can learn immediately how to progress further.

Mistakes happen, even on first-clears, sometimes a lot. You can see some in world clear videos, but how they react or handle the mistakes is also what separates these groups from a typical raid or pug. That's also a raid awareness function, it's not just about healer DPS. I tell people it's easy to watch someone else make mistakes on a video and be a critic, but it can be hard to be your own. You should record or stream yourself and not depend on parsing statistics alone. Watch your own PoV to see things you probably couldn't at the time. Sometimes you'll cringe, you'll find a spot or an area that you can easily improve on whether it's a heal, cooldown, or damage.

I've seen bad healers turn into pretty good ones over time, ones that started with 0 DPS to putting up respectable DPS to clearing a savage tier. It's motivation and having a raid group around them supporting. Anyone can improve if they put the effort in. There are a lot of people who are afraid to hop into harder content, but as any raider knows, they will never improve unless they learn first-hand and wipe.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

When it's added into the game, people don't know yet what and how to do it. That's why content is harder than it actually is. You don't need to have your healer DPS to pass the content, but you may be able to fail and get a party wipe without the healer DPS'ing.

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I'm pretty sure that world first raid group members are pushing their performance very close to the optimal output when they first clear the raids. It's simply impossible to reach enough party DPS at that item level without healer DPS even when you're doing all that there is to do.

This discussion could also be approached from a different perspective: how many of you have actually yourself or know a group who has beaten the Savage raids (or Coil) with 0 DPS close to when it had just been released (without echo and close to max item level)? Because I've been involved with pretty good (not even close to top 10% but perhaps above average) raid groups, and we've always had trouble with DPS checks despite both healers DPSing throughout Coil and Alexander.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

(...)as well as adjusting healer jobs themselves so that they have a variety of tools beyond just "heal button" and "dps button". AST is a good step in the right direction, IMO, with the buff cards. Let's take it further. Give healers more support-related things to do instead of expecting them to dps. I really did not roll a healer to dps 70% of the time.

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That's exactly what I said. Cards are nice, but it's still a buff each 30sec at most. And many make it each 1-3min on average since they only want Balance with a Royal Road effect. Healers lack buffs they could and would want to frequently use. Ones that are not off-global cooldown, so that they would actually compete with offensive spells and heals, and good enough to push the latter off, frequently enough to fill the time in-between heals, with only a short time, if everything goes well, left to DPS.
Off-cooldown stuff with long recast just isn't gonna be relevant in that respect.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Expecting healers and tanks to contribute damage isn't doubling their duty. A healer who doesn't DPS surrenders a third of their toolkit. Both roles have a significantly simplified "rotation" because they are essentially hybrids. I'll compare my White Mage, Warrior and Dragoon openers. Notice the difference? Admittedly, I left Warrior unfinished because I have to adjust based on the group. I'll usually prep another Eye combo and setup a triple Fell Cleave but sometimes I'll need to build aggro and etc. Point was to illustrate neither healer nor tank openers involve much unless you aim for pure optimization. Dragoon, on the other hand, need to execute properly or its damage plummets. As a dedicated DPS, they must focus and refine because the less damage they do the less likely you'll clear. After all, the fights are tuned around 90% of a DPS' output. That places the bulk of the pressure to actually killing the boss on four players knowing their rotation near perfectly. If I omitted Blood of the Dragoon, well, I'm losing a massive chunk of damage. Would that be okay because "it's hard to manage?" No other job can literally stand still and do nothing except healers nor can DPS ignore a portion of their toolkit and still be considered good.

Demanding 90%+ from your DPS before they can comment about other roles contributing damage is essentially expecting they have a nearly flawless performance while tanks and healers are not held to a comparable standard.

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I wasn't suggesting that healers should not contribute, it was the thought hat they should hit 85-90% of their dummy damage potential while healing that irked me. If you want a healer who is not only monitoring player HP but actively healing to also hit up to 90% of their damage potential against a dummy, then how is it unreasonable to expect DPS to be hitting high 90s of their potential? Healer damage potential on a dummy excludes any healing activity.

If you are expecting healers to hit 90% of that potential while at the same time caring for the healing work, how are you not expecting more from healers? Seems to me that's expecting near flawless performance from healers, so DPS need to live up to the same expectations while dodging all the AoEs.

Zojha replied and confirmed i was misunderstanding, so no issues. As I said, I have no problem with healers adding damage, I do so myself when I heal. The degree of expectation and sometimes the degree of performance expected does seem to be out of proportion at times though.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

That's exactly what I said.

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Then we agree! It just seemed like the conversation was shifting more toward ways to further cement the healer dps meta than actually adjusting content/jobs to make them better healing experiences.