Confirmation of Uncapped Raids. Confirmation of a terrible decision.

Size 20 font does not equal success.

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In the end, 1 thing matters

IT IS NOT GOING TO BE CAPPED

this is a FACT

we know this

everyone arguing for a cap, already lost this arguement as its already been decided

so why the hell is this still going on?

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In the end 1 thing matters.
People will vote with their feet.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

R50's squatting the R30 challenge does affect my challenge. It degrades its meaning if any buffoon can just spam behests or shardbot to 45 and then succeed.

Let the failures fail. Let the winners win. Don't let the failures pretend to win by going around designed challenge. Make the winners fight fairly for their title.

This could have been an opportunity to reward good R30 players, which are more valuable to the game than poor R50 players.

I will say it again:
A good R30 player deserves more reward than a bad R50

I'm sure the horde of bad R50's begs do differ.

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Once again SE doesn't care about your epeen, they just want your money. SE doesn't mind making difficult content, but they're not going to shut out a big chunk of their player base for a couple of hardcores cause I'm sure there's more bad R50s than good R30s.

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Originally Posted by Rinsui

In the end 1 thing matters.
People will vote with their feet.

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You can't expect vedis to understand that decisions aren't right simply because they get made. That's what he essentially argued.

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Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog

Once again SE doesn't care about your epeen, they just want your money. SE doesn't mind making difficult content, but they're not going to shut out a big chunk of their player base for a couple of hardcores cause I'm sure there's more bad R50s than good R30s.

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There's nothing hardcore about a r30 Dungeon designed for a light party anyway.

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Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog

Once again SE doesn't care about your epeen, they just want your money. SE doesn't mind making difficult content, but they're not going to shut out a big chunk of their player base for a couple of hardcores cause I'm sure there's more bad R50s than good R30s.

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My money isn't in your tee-ball caliber events. Neither is the majority of quality MMO-paying players.
You really do just want an easy game, don't you?

How are you ever going to succeed in the R50 dungeon if you don't even want to fight the R30 dungeon with R30s?

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

There's nothing hardcore about a r30 Dungeon designed for a light party anyway.

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There should be. There should be R35 earrings that are rare and difficult to get, but not replaceable for any common R50 scrub who can't cut the content.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

There's nothing hardcore about a r30 Dungeon designed for a light party anyway.

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It would be hardcore if it forced you to do it at rank 30 like it was designed for.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

It would be hardcore if it forced you to do it at rank 30 like it was designed for.

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No it wouldn't. It would be ignored, just like all my other battle classes have been.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

It would be hardcore if it forced you to do it at rank 30 like it was designed for.

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or you could scale the diffulty up to r50 with a difficulty slider....

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

No it wouldn't. It would be ignored, just like all my other battle classes have been.

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It wouldn't be ignored since it gives good loot rewards for people who want to rank up their rank 30 classes.

Which isn't me, hence it would be ignored, at least by me.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

It would be hardcore if it forced you to do it at rank 30 like it was designed for.

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i'm sorry but since it was made with the cap being uncapped i guess it was designed for everyone over the required minimum. no matter how much you disagree it was designed and implemented different than you thought.

the people i have seen the say the r50's should be allowed are all either asking for a difficulty slider for them or saying they'd be fine with the levels to by synced. i am actually fine with either method as long as i am allowed to get in to help a friend if they ask for it. as of the way it is right now it is unlimited on what the r50's can do to get in, but i would be fine with restrictions.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Which isn't me, hence it would be ignored, at least by me.

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Then you are playing the game wrong if your main class doesn't have any support skills from other classes above rank 30. A rank 50 class without any rank 30+ support skills is gimped.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

How are you ever going to succeed in the R50 dungeon if you don't even want to fight the R30 dungeon with R30s?

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Now you're talking about something different, just because someone wants to tackle a R30 dungeon with their R50 doesn't mean they're not able to take on a R50 dungeon. What if my all my classes were at R50 then I wouldn't have any other choice than to tackle it with a R50. Would that mean I wouldn't succeed in a R50 dungeon?

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Then you are playing the game wrong if your main class doesn't have any support skills from other classes above rank 30. A rank 50 class without any rank 30+ support skills is gimped.

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I don't need to run a r30, 60 minute dungeon, to get gear to level my sub-jobs.

The time it would take me to get the gear I actually wanted would be better spent just SPing. The effort is not worth the reward.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

I don't need to run a r30, 60 minute dungeon, to get gear to level my sub-jobs.

The time it would take me to get the gear I actually wanted would be better spent just SPing. The effort is not worth the reward.

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If it's good enough you will. Don't kid yourself.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

If it's good enough you will. Don't kid yourself.

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I'm not. Don't try to tell me how I play my games.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

I'm not. Don't try to tell me how I play my games.

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I'm not telling you how to do anything. All I'm saying is that you underestimate the human nature of yourself and the rest of the player base.

before going to say that it steamrolling with R50's, ask your self this, Are you or your buddy doing that? and since is an Instance, everyone can go in, regardless who and what rank they are. but only can be entered as a party, meaning majority of ppl here would probably have their own LS runs or something right?

Then it will be not much of a problem then for those team-players do run through that instances, regardless the cap rank/lvl

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

I'm not telling you how to do anything. All I'm saying is that you underestimate the human nature of yourself and the rest of the player base.

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I'm not saying anything about the rest of the player base, I'm talking about myself here. There is a reason why the highest job after my 50s is 21.

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Originally Posted by Chinook

Also, a cap would have helped balance SP from dungeon mobs, giving an additional alternative to grind sp. Everyone from 25 to 49 could have used dungeon to get decent sp for their class.

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Quoting my own post that got lost before the debate.

We got confirmation that we'll gain sp from the r30 dungeon.

That could have been a nice alternative to grind SP for any group with r25-r49 classes, giving the opportunity to rank up with friends that aren't in the 5 ranks range.

Although nothing is more unsure atm that the amount of SP we'll get from these dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Perrin_Aybarra

CoP was the golden age of MMOs, a real feel of adventure and accomplishment, good rewards at the end and a real engaging story.

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Yea man. I always look back on CoP and it must've been a hardcore players dream when it was first released. Most NA's were underprepared when CoP was originally released. Those with just 1, 2, or even 3 75's in 2004 were still in for a great challenge. Even the level 30 cap Promys were the most difficult thing since trying to get Ancient Papyrus when no one was Lvl51 (I'm assuming). What was great about the promys is that it didn't matter if you had 18 people in your alliance, or if it was just you... Getting to the top and defeating the boss required skill. The entire expansion pack played out like this, and it worked.

These dungeons clearly aren't meant to be some hugely game changing thing. It literally was created simply to add content and something more to do other than grind. The SP is presumptuously on par with that you can get in competitive linked levequests.

Capping dungeons is a miserable tactic that clearly did NOT work in XI. Why? Because you couldn't get anything done in XI. Capping dungeons made it so no new players could progress through the game without begging or even paying other players to come with you.

Capping dungeons or even story mode missions prevents players from experiencing content and continuing to play the game. Will these dungeons eventually get replaced or go unused? Probably, but you could say that with any content in any MMO. The fact of the matter is, when they do go unused what happens to the players that want to experience them or get past the requirements of beating the dungeon to unlock a future one?

One of the most important things SE should have learned from XI is that capping things is a bad idea and prevents future players from staying.

It's just a "mid rank" dungeon...what's the point of all this? Nothing you will get in there will last you til the end of the game, it's just "prestige" for the mid ranks. Maybe it will make your life easier to perform better in your class but not all the way to 50...it's a temporary thing and there is nothing wrong with that. This is not an endgame dungeon, hence it being uncapped makes absolutely no difference whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Tibian

These dungeons clearly aren't meant to be some hugely game changing thing. It literally was created simply to add content and something more to do other than grind. The SP is presumptuously on par with that you can get in competitive linked levequests.

Capping dungeons is a miserable tactic that clearly did NOT work in XI. Why? Because you couldn't get anything done in XI. Capping dungeons made it so no new players could progress through the game without begging or even paying other players to come with you.

Capping dungeons or even story mode missions prevents players from experiencing content and continuing to play the game. Will these dungeons eventually get replaced or go unused? Probably, but you could say that with any content in any MMO. The fact of the matter is, when they do go unused what happens to the players that want to experience them or get past the requirements of beating the dungeon to unlock a future one?

One of the most important things SE should have learned from XI is that capping things is a bad idea and prevents future players from staying.

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I started the promys as a 50-something PLD in my highest job. I continued through to 75 and completed them at a comfortable pace before the nerf.
It might not have worked for you, but it worked for me with a minimum of hassle.

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Originally Posted by Lerris

I started the promys as a 50-something PLD in my highest job. I continued through to 75 and completed them at a comfortable pace before the nerf.
It might not have worked for you, but it worked for me with a minimum of hassle.

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which nerf you talking about?
the one that made them not "near impossible" or the one where they uncapped(wasnt there for that one)

they were uber hard to begin with i remember that, but the nerf they added to them original was much needed(i completed them pre nerf, but the difficulty made me not wanna repeat them, which was the main issue, you had to do them with people who hadnt done them cuz no one wanted to repeat them they were so hard)

especialy hard compared to how hard the stuff after it was(which wasnt nearly as bad)

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Originally Posted by Richard

So you condone 1-2 Lv.50's blowing through Toto-Rak for 2-3 Lv.25's? It's things like this that destroy any semblance of a challenge in games anymore. You may as well be breastfeeding at 15 years old.

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Why do you care so much what other's do? It doesn't affect you in any way, shape, or form.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

which nerf you talking about?
the one that made them not "near impossible" or the one where they uncapped(wasnt there for that one)

they were uber hard to begin with i remember that, but the nerf they added to them original was much needed(i completed them pre nerf, but the difficulty made me not wanna repeat them, which was the main issue, you had to do them with people who hadnt done them cuz no one wanted to repeat them they were so hard)

especialy hard compared to how hard the stuff after it was(which wasnt nearly as bad)

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I started and completed all of CoP with a static I made just for that(contained of 3 RL friends and 2 IG friends) before any kind of nerf. And with a group of skillful players, a nice range of jobs to choose from and appropriate gear to support your job all of CoP was easy enough to get it done. Those so called "hardest" fights in CoP people complained about were among the ones we usually got done 1/1(Snoll Tzar, Airship etc). It's all about preperation and that's what kept most people from experiencing CoP, cause the preperation needed was something most players didn't want to invest. They wanted to say "Hi, wanna do this?" and then "Okay, done, thank you". CoP is and still was my best MMO experience ever. Its tuning was perfect, the story was awesome and the rewards were more than compensating.

i could care less about rank 25 unique gear drops therefore except for the exploration factor will not care about a rank 25 dungeon. they should have made it 35 imo. It takes 2-3 days to hit rank or is it lvl rank for now i guess 25 and they need a dungeon to explore, hardly. to SE should we start calling rank lvl as soon as you abolish phs or are you gonna ween us off. Please dont respond to my last comment it was a joke.

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

I started and completely all of CoP with a static I made just for that(contained of 3 RL friends and 2 IG friends) before any kind of nerf. And with a group of skillful players, a nice range of jobs to choose from and appropriate gear to support your job all of CoP was easy enough to get it done. Those so called "hardest" fights in CoP people complained about were among the ones we usually got done 1/1(Snoll Tzar, Airship etc). It's all about preperation and that's what kept most people from experiencing CoP, cause the preperation needed was something most players didn't want to invest. They wanted to say "Hi, wanna do this?" and then "Okay, done, thank you". CoP is and still was my best MMO experience ever. Its tuning was perfect, the story was awesome and the rewards were more than compensating.

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ok, so you did them when cop launched, and as the content for it was released(kinda like how i did)

while i didnt 1/1 several of them, i didnt fail alot either(some people may even say i cheated cuz i did it with a 5 blm/rdm team all the way through, was one of the first to use that style of team for this and it worked GREAT, especialy pre nerf)

cop was an awesome experience, but i also dont think it was due to the level capping of the areas, it was due to the mechanics of the fights.

if it was scaled to level 75, people woulda had just as much trouble on it as they did when the stuff was 40 capped, or 50 capped. but it was story driven with progression. so capping it and raising it slowly made ALOT of sense. especialy since back then most people didnt have 75s yet so they were still having to level up to reach the next cap available.


The discussion which this which relates to whats at hand. These dungeons are not cop. They arent story or pgoression driven. They are just straight content. You dont need to put a cap on content and lower peoples levels. The entire reason they are releasing 2 dungeons, and not just 1, is so that there are 2 ranges for people to do them at. 1 for lower people and 1 for people who are capped(or near capped).
The lower dungeon isnt meant for people to gear up their 50s(obviously) or present them a major challenge, that is why they added the 50 dungeon.

So main arguement going around from there is that people feel the 50s shouldnt be allowed to get the 30 dungeon done because the content isnt meant for them as much, and therefore they should be restricted in how they do it.(fewer people fall into this catagory then the next)
The rest of those wanting restrictions, are those who are capped, who are mad that they didnt get 2 rank 50 dungeons, therefore they want to find a way to make SE turn the 30 dungeon into a challenging dungeon for 50s using a level cap, and dont care if others want it or not, as long as they get what they want(another instance to do at endgame basicaly)

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Originally Posted by Seikninkuru

Why do you care so much what other's do? It doesn't affect you in any way, shape, or form.

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I care what affects me in the game. If the dungeons start off being uncapped, there's a strong possibility they will ALL be that way down the line. Why do YOU care so much what my opinions are? Good discussion brought to the thread champ.

Anyways. The voting in the other poll is pretty clear on which way the community thinks dungeons should go. Give it another 2-3 days of voting and discussion and we'll see a clear line drawn and hopefully a Community Rep response. Then hopefully the dev team will change how they work. FOR THE BETTER.

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Originally Posted by Richard

I care what affects me in the game. If the dungeons start off being uncapped, there's a strong possibility they will ALL be that way down the line. Why do YOU care so much what my opinions are? Good discussion brought to the thread champ.

Anyways. The voting in the other poll is pretty clear on which way the community thinks dungeons should go. Give it another 2-3 days of voting and discussion and we'll see a clear line drawn and hopefully a Community Rep response. Then hopefully the dev team will change how they work. FOR THE BETTER.

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considering they dont have a way to put a top cap in the game without delaying the dungeons for several more weeks at the least, do you really think they are gonna care what that poll says?

seriously?

they will follow their timeliine
the dungeon will go in as is
people will steamroll it, and itl be that

they can add the cap down the line, but the damage will be done(or the so called damage people claim will be there but really isnt)


or do you actualy want them to delay the dungeons, and piss even more people off in doing so? just so that there can be a cap on them too

seriously though people are arguing over a rank 25 dungeon. I will be in the rank 45 one if anyone needs me.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

seriously though people are arguing over a rank 25 dungeon. I will be in the rank 45 one if anyone needs me.

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ill be there mostly too, tearing it up and trying to figure out the supposed very difficult boss in it(cant wait to see what or who the boss actualy is)

I'm gonna hold my tongue on this until I see what it's actually like.
I don't think they're just trying to satiate us, I think they're genuinely aiming for long lasting content that even (Gods willing) is played in 4 years, will still be fun. While I do think they should allow higher people into the lower dungeons, there should be a limit on range. Keeps both sides of this opinion content.

Edit:
Just agreeing with Thev's post up there about adding the cap later - I need to be re-interested in this game before I go off and forget it. I'm already logging in less and less. The sooner they recapture my attention, the sooner I'll be playing, and maybe one day paying. Therefore, go ahead and give me my capless dungeons - So what if a R50 is in my R30 dungeon, it's Instanced. Not like they're hurting me or anything.

...wow. The FFXI nostalgia-hounds are really trying to run this game into the ground by making it just like FFXI. Level caps were never a good idea--what is the point of level progression if it needs to be reset to do anything worthwhile? This is part of the reason why CoP was the worst possible expansion to come out around the launch time of WoW, requiring huge amounts of time to do anything, buying and keeping separate sets of level appropriate gear just for these fights, and doing everything it could to exclude anyone but the most dedicated players. That's not a good idea in a game that barely has any content as it is and is in dire need of attracting more players with content, not excluding them with things like level caps.

Thankfully, these dungeons won't take as much time as the old CoP crawls, but I am a bit worried that the lockout time will be very long for a fairly short piece of content. Also, part of the point of leveling is that you can come back to old content later on and beat it when the level caps are raised. When they took the level caps off of CoP zones, everyone who wasn't able to get a static to stay together for months, or didn't have 3-4 hours to spend in one sitting sneaking through a dungeon to avoid enemies instead of fighting them like a combat based game should encourage you to do, etc was able to finally see content and zones they should have had access to from the start.

Anyhow, leave the level caps off SE. You can't develop just for the tiny percentage of the market that has managed to stick with the game this long and want this game to be FFXI-2, you have to develop for everyone, especially potential new players to expand the playerbase.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

considering they dont have a way to put a top cap in the game without delaying the dungeons for several more weeks at the least, do you really think they are gonna care what that poll says?

seriously?

they will follow their timeliine
the dungeon will go in as is
people will steamroll it, and itl be that

they can add the cap down the line, but the damage will be done(or the so called damage people claim will be there but really isnt)


or do you actualy want them to delay the dungeons, and piss even more people off in doing so? just so that there can be a cap on them too

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Are four players required to enter rank 25+ raids? And 8 for 45+?
Currently, yes. Rank 25+ raids will require four players to enter, and rank 45+ raids will require a full party of 8. This is a result of the balancing that is done inside of the actual raid, along with ensuring proper load on the servers are maintained. With the release of patch 1.18 we will monitor the comments and feedback from the community and re-evaluate as necessary and implement variations as needed.

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This is the test run for anything to come. In any one of my posts did I ask for a delay to fix dungeons BEFORE they were released? No. But if they go back and tweak things while the community is giving feedback over a month or two then my work here is done. I'm looking at the larger picture and the future of the games content not QQing that some carebears would rather spam through low level content on higher level characters.

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Originally Posted by Richard

This is the test run for anything to come. In any one of my posts did I ask for a delay to fix dungeons BEFORE they were released? No. But if they go back and tweak things while the community is giving feedback over a month or two then my work here is done. I'm looking at the larger picture and the future of the games content not QQing that some carebears would rather spam through low level content on higher level characters.

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you may not have asked for it, but SOMEONE did in the other thread
so point in fact, it will delay the dungeons

but asking for it to be implemented for these at this point, is in fact asking for it to be delayed, cuz theres no other way to do it

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

you may not have asked for it, but SOMEONE did in the other thread
so point in fact, it will delay the dungeons

but asking for it to be implemented for these at this point, is in fact asking for it to be delayed, cuz theres no other way to do it

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besides the way Bayohne JUST said they were going to do it?

1.18 adds dungeons. Players test dungeons and give feedback. Dev Team tweaks dungeons based on feedback. ROCKETSURGERY FOR SURE.