The Black Mage Rotations

the buff is quite nice i must say on single target. Seeing some real nice crits. Of course I like the non crits as well xD

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

math

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You are ignoring the potency of fire3. Pre-patch Infinite flare was better then N3 only on 4+ target since otherwise overall potency was better. You need 6+ mobs to start to really loose dps compared to pre-patch

You can no longer do the pre-patch rotatin reliably anymore.

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Originally Posted by Uninstall

You can no longer do the pre-patch rotatin reliably anymore.

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You just have to not spam fire3 button while waiting for mana recover but let pass half a second from mana tik

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Originally Posted by LetBloodline

You just have to not spam fire3 button while waiting for mana recover but let pass half a second from mana tik

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I am having issues even with waiting a whole second about half the times. This clunkiness makes me almost want to go back to using Blizzard spells. :(

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

So lets see, looking at just aoe potency.
N = 0, 260*1.8 every 12s = 39 pps
N = 1, (260+100)*1.8, and this will take 15s due to F3 and ticks = 43.2 pps
N = 2, (260+100+100)*1.8 over 18s = 46 pps

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I haven't gotten a chance to try it out yet, but unless they've changed something, N = 1 should take 12s and N = 2 should take 15s. This translates to an AoE potency of 55.2 PPS per target, which is about 94% of the PPS of the Flare rotation. N = 3 would be 56 PPS per target (95%).

I still have to try it to confirm though.

Side note: N = 0 is limited to 12s by the cooldown of Transpose, so it's correct.

They changed something. I only tried it a little bit, but I think UI1 and UI2 act like UI3 now. That is, when casting Fire 3, the UI1/2 buff gets removed shortly before it finishes casting, and then AF3 is applied after it hits.

It seems that if you start casting Fire 3 right when you get a mana tick after Transpose (casting time 3.5s), the UI1 buff is removed before you get the next tick, so you won't be able to cast Fire 2 before doing Flare. To alleviate this, you can wait for half a second before casting Fire 3. However, I think this causes you to miss a mana tick, so the rotation is extended by 3s. This would make Kenji's numbers correct.

More testing is necessary.

We may need to revisit the 2.0 AoE rotation: B2 - B2 - F3 - F2 spam - Flare - Transpose

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Originally Posted by O-Deka-K

They changed something. I only tried it a little bit, but I think UI1 and UI2 act like UI3 now. That is, when casting Fire 3, the UI1/2 buff gets removed shortly before it finishes casting, and then AF3 is applied after it hits.

It seems that if you start casting Fire 3 right when you get a mana tick after Transpose (casting time 3.5s), the UI1 buff is removed before you get the next tick, so you won't be able to cast Fire 2 before doing Flare. To alleviate this, you can wait for half a second before casting Fire 3. However, I think this causes you to miss a mana tick, so the rotation is extended by 3s. This would make Kenji's numbers correct.

More testing is necessary.

We may need to revisit the 2.0 AoE rotation: B2 - B2 - F3 - F2 spam - Flare - Transpose

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You don't want full mana. You want only 2 mana tiks that means be able to cast fire 2 fire 2 flare. You must have a SS so high that fire 3 cast time is less then 3s before having issues with this rotation and the "issue" is wait 0.1 sec if your fire3 cast time is of 2.9

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Originally Posted by LetBloodline

You don't want full mana. You want only 2 mana tiks that means be able to cast fire 2 fire 2 flare. You must have a SS so high that fire 3 cast time is less then 3s before having issues with this rotation and the "issue" is wait 0.1 sec if your fire3 cast time is of 2.9

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I agree that Spell Speed may be a factor. However, according to PuroStrider's spreadsheet, you'd need 686 spell speed in order to reduce the cast time of Fire3 to 3 seconds. I only have 440.

In 2.0, UI1, UI2, UI3 all worked the same: UI was switched to AF3 when Fire3/Flare hit.

In 2.1, UI3 was changed so that UI3 was removed shortly before Fire3/Flare hit and AF3 was applied after, leaving a small window where you have no buff. However, it was discovered that they didn't change UI1 and UI2, so the double-Flare was modified to work under UI1.

In 2.3 now, they specifically said that they changed UI1 and UI2, so I think that they just applied the same change as they did with UI3. I haven't been watching my buffs carefully enough to confirm this though. I'm going to do some testing this weekend.

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Originally Posted by O-Deka-K

In 2.3 now, they specifically said that they changed UI1 and UI2, so I think that they just applied the same change as they did with UI3. I haven't been watching my buffs carefully enough to confirm this though. I'm going to do some testing this weekend.

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You're right in your assumption. I tested it as soon as patch day hit because I figured that's the change they would have applied.

BAMP. Thank you and come again.

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Originally Posted by Kenji113

And to those who say "well you were just abusing a bug", I say, well YOU were not playing the class to its potential.

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Actually, most of us were. That doesn\\'t change the fact that we were abusing a bug, nor does it make the change a nerf. Our damage dropped but that\\'s doesn\\'t mean the same thing as \\'nerf\\'. Our damage has been fixed; we may not like it but that\\'s what\\'s happened. The only difference between us and you is that we don\\'t live in a fantasy world where maximising our DPS by abusing a bug automatically becomes the way things ought to be. So, now it\\'s fixed we accept it and move on; we\\'ll find other ways to maximise our DPS. You, on the other hand, are clearly in denial. Good luck with that; let us know how it works out for you.

Has anyone else noticed this since 2.3 release? In the past, if you landed Blizzard III as something died (even if it essentially landed "after" it died, but still fully cast, full animation, and showed damage being applied), you'd get Umbral Ice III. Useful way to end a lot of fights, particularly on trash.

Now, however, it still works fine if you land the killing (or almost killing) blow with Bliz 3, but if you have that "essentially landed 'after' it died" result, Astral Fire III gets removed, but you don't get Umbral Ice III.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Has anyone else noticed this since 2.3 release? In the past, if you landed Blizzard III as something died (even if it essentially landed "after" it died, but still fully cast, full animation, and showed damage being applied), you'd get Umbral Ice III. Useful way to end a lot of fights, particularly on trash.

Now, however, it still works fine if you land the killing (or almost killing) blow with Bliz 3, but if you have that "essentially landed 'after' it died" result, Astral Fire III gets removed, but you don't get Umbral Ice III.

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That's why you should leave killing blow to others and go for next target or just schate if it's last one

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Originally Posted by LetBloodline

That's why you should leave killing blow to others and go for next target or just schate if it's last one

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It's not always intended and sometimes I'm doing it for the last mob of a pull when it's trash to easily refill my mana back up. I've also had it happen a few times when I'm casting Blizzard III on a bulb in T6 and someone gets a crit or something off while I'm casting.

And, the thing is, no, it really isn't why I should do what you said, as it -never- screwed up like this before 2.3. It's something they broke with the patch.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

It's not always intended and sometimes I'm doing it for the last mob of a pull when it's trash to easily refill my mana back up. I've also had it happen a few times when I'm casting Blizzard III on a bulb in T6 and someone gets a crit or something off while I'm casting.

And, the thing is, no, it really isn't why I should do what you said, as it -never- screwed up like this before 2.3. It's something they broke with the patch.

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I was letting last bit of healt to other dps (if avaiable) since pre 2.3 so i didn't noticed anything in this regard (and i use transpose between trash mobs that's way more reliable and it's unlikely you get to use the U3 bonus anyway so they are pretty much the same)

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Originally Posted by LetBloodline

I was letting last bit of healt to other dps (if avaiable) since pre 2.3 so i didn't noticed anything in this regard (and i use transpose between trash mobs that's way more reliable and it's unlikely you get to use the U3 bonus anyway so they are pretty much the same)

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Like I said, it's not always intended. In fact, more often than not it is unintended, and causes a severe issue if it happens in the middle of something like T6, especially when we're trying to push phases. The first few times it happened to me were such situations and it took seeing it happen on an occasion when I was using Blizz III intentionally to finish off a mob to realize what was causing me to not get my Umbral Ice 3.

More often than not, I do let other DPS take care of the last hit on things, but the fact is that sometimes your Blizz III or whatever else you're casting is going to land like that whether you're trying to or not, and that's a problem. And my reference to bulbs in T6 wasn't "last bit of health" sort of thing. I'm talking I start casting Bliz 3 when it's at 50% hp and someone gets lucky crits that burst it down to dead before my spell finishes, but not early enough to actually interrupt. Only early enough to cause my bliz III to land, and show damage dealt, but the bulb technically have already died, and then I don't get my Umbral Ice 3. Sometimes, especially if I notice what happened, I'm okay and have enough mp to just cast enough Bliz 3. Other times, I don't notice it until I've already cast Thunder II, since I'm not waiting after I Bliz 3, and then I don't have the mana to cast another Bliz 3 and this sets me back pretty hard.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Like I said, it's not always intended. In fact, more often than not it is unintended, and causes a severe issue if it happens in the middle of something like T6, especially when we're trying to push phases. The first few times it happened to me were such situations and it took seeing it happen on an occasion when I was using Blizz III intentionally to finish off a mob to realize what was causing me to not get my Umbral Ice 3.

More often than not, I do let other DPS take care of the last hit on things, but the fact is that sometimes your Blizz III or whatever else you're casting is going to land like that whether you're trying to or not, and that's a problem. And my reference to bulbs in T6 wasn't "last bit of health" sort of thing. I'm talking I start casting Bliz 3 when it's at 50% hp and someone gets lucky crits that burst it down to dead before my spell finishes, but not early enough to actually interrupt. Only early enough to cause my bliz III to land, and show damage dealt, but the bulb technically have already died, and then I don't get my Umbral Ice 3. Sometimes, especially if I notice what happened, I'm okay and have enough mp to just cast enough Bliz 3. Other times, I don't notice it until I've already cast Thunder II, since I'm not waiting after I Bliz 3, and then I don't have the mana to cast another Bliz 3 and this sets me back pretty hard.

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I know the problems you have, i had them at the lunch of the game and it's since then that i learned to cast B3, T3 and first F3 on sure targets and only fire/procs on target that can die quickly. In T6 if the bulb goes from half life to dead in less then 1,5 secs where you are not contributing to his dmg you should really don't try cast a blizzard 3 on him and you could actwally ignore them past first cast or a swifcast flare convert if avaiable
Know when a mob could die, how many other BLM/SMN are on him and reacting accordingly is part of the job since lunch. Maybe a patch easied this and they took this off but the problems you are reporting i had them at lunch and i've learned to play effectively. I think it's actwally intended and even if your cast still gave you U3 before you where wasting the spell anyway on a dead body. Your work is to prevent that

9 times out of 10, it doesn't die too fast for my second spell to land on it. When it doesn't, and I don't cast that spell, it doesn't die in time. It's that 1 out of 10 that's screwing me over due to allies getting unexpected crits/bloodletter procs/etc and suddenly killing it far faster than it normally dies.

There are times when I get like a Fire III crit or am in the right part of my long-term rotation to Swiftcast+Flare and no other spells from me are needed, but those are rare occasions.

And this specific problem hasn't existed until this patch. Yeah, sometimes your cast will get interrupted due to something dying before you finish, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the spell lands, even if the thing is already technically dead, and pops up a damage value, which used to still give you your AF3>UI3 switch, but doesn't anymore. The same is true for Fire III switching you from UI3 to AF3, though this is far more uncommon a thing to have happen. It drops the buff you have, but doesn't give you the buff you're trying to get. It's part of what they did to get rid of infinite flare, as far as I can tell.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

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Yes, i got what you are talking about but still it was a wasted cast. And don't shoot important cast on that target if you have a 10% chance of seeing it die too fast unless other dps are scattered and unable to properly kill it off (but that means he has no chance to die)

Important cast must have 100% insurance. 10% of fail a blizzard is huge

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Originally Posted by LetBloodline

Yes, i got what you are talking about but still it was a wasted cast. And don't shoot important cast on that target if you have a 10% chance of seeing it die too fast unless other dps are scattered and unable to properly kill it off (but that means he has no chance to die)

Important cast must have 100% insurance. 10% of fail a blizzard is huge

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That is -the- dumbest thing I've read in a long time.

The cast is important because there's about a 90% chance that cast is required.

And, before 2.3, there was no risk at all of it causing a problem because even if the spell landed with the bulb essentially already dead, I'd still get my Umbral Ice III. It's only a problem at all now because SE fucked it up when they were making changes to get rid of infinite flare.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

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Today in ST it happened to me to hit mob after his death and i got the buff all right so i didn't see your problem in game at all

Plus 10% chance if him die too fast means that he die in 3-4 seconds and the hit of a blizzard 3 in AF3 will not make the difference. You losing the cast instead is a big hit in your dps, especially if you are not paying attention and you don't notice it. Tresure your crucial casts (those that change phase) way more and be more careful not to loose them and check if they actwally landed
Anyway no difference noticed from 2.2 to 2.3 for me

The cast landed. And there is a difference. You probably landed while it was actually still alive, or at the exact moment of death, which still gives you the Umbral Ice 3 buff.

And as proof of the spell landing, I'm only a few seconds into the Astral Fire III countdown when AF3 is removed by the Blizz III cast.

So, please, stop making retarded assumptions and bullshit failures at calculating. 10% chance of him to die too fast means 10% of the time, one or more people get a crit that changes the speed it's dying. Normally, if I don't do my spell and no one gets that crit, it does not die fast enough to not grow into a larger patch, which you would know if you actually bothered to read what I'm saying and not make idiotic assumptions. That means 90% of the time, I -have- to cast that second spell with our current bulb dps.

sounds like your own fault for having no mana when a bulb spawns :> wouldn't be an issue if you had enough to just fire and flare.

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Originally Posted by Uninstall

sounds like your own fault for having no mana when a bulb spawns :> wouldn't be an issue if you had enough to just fire and flare.

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Why would I flare without convert?

And this problem doesn't just occur on bulbs. That's just an example of where it can actually be problematic. The problem with the phase shift shouldn't exist, and never existed before 2.3

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Originally Posted by LetBloodline

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How about you learn to read and quit making asinine assumptions? My post was never a "whine" post. It was informing people of a bug that's come into play since 2.3. It doesn't come into effect very often, but when it does, it can completely screw up your rotation.

And frankly, the fact that you can't seem to comprehend "My spellcast is required 90% of the time means I -have- to make that spellcast and risk the 10% of the time that it wasn't required and might trigger the bug" shows clearly that you are the one who needs to learn how to be a better blm.

I think the only thing that the two posters you are arguing with are trying to say is that you need to adjust what you are doing in order to prevent this from happening, they understand that as you cast your ice spell and the mob is dead you are getting stuck in AF and no mp. The only thing they are saying (and you seem to be ignoring) is that their are other things that you could be doing instead of just going for the ice spell on the bulb (regardless if its a 10% chance or 50% chance w/e) if your crew absolutely needs your blizzard to last hit the mob were you to get in that situation then there are other issues present anyway. (most melees average out an auto at around 200-300, and you have 3 other dps hitting this thing anyway + tanks.)

@Xisin

I'm not getting stuck in AF. AF is being -removed- without giving me Umbral Ice 3. So, please, stop making the same mistake that LetBloodline has made and actually read what I've repeatedly said.

There's not anything I can change, either, until the other DPS in my static can handle the bulbs reliably with me only casting one spell.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

@Xisin

I'm not getting stuck in AF. AF is being -removed- without giving me Umbral Ice 3. So, please, stop making the same mistake that LetBloodline has made and actually read what I've repeatedly said.

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That's fairly irrelevant as you feel compelled to cast the blizzard no matter what - being in AF is prob better than this situation anyway. However, if you really feel the need to help out your fellow dps in your group then drop a scathe instead then toss the blizzard, it's really all I have for you... (seriously no one can make up the 400 damage difference after that? ask your healer for help i guess.) - but really, if you are that close on a dps check (savage or normal) then you wont meet the other dps checks (savage or normal if going consistent) and this problems needs to be addressed.

I don't think this is a bug though, its a probably a result of the flare fixes they have done. (much like the fire/ice ticks from 2.0 -> 2.1) Thanks for posting about the change.. but really if three people seem to have misunderstood what you were conveying... eh.

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Originally Posted by Xisin

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I have no doubt it's a side effect of the changes they made to get rid of infinite flare, but that doesn't make it "not a bug." It makes it a bug introduced by those changes.

I'm guessing you and the second person misunderstood due to reading the asinine posts of Let confusing the issue.

My other dps can make up the difference -some- of the time, via crits (that's my assumption for what makes the difference, anyway, since that would fit about how often it happens), but those are far from reliable. I don't think Scathe would be enough without critting or procing its double damage, which would again be unreliable, and I'd rather not scathe there because except on the rare occasion that this new bug shows itself, the Blizzard III maintains the flow of my rotation better, as scathe would drop me below mp for Thunder after Blizzard III.

I would also note, when I talk about the 90%/10% split on this, I'm talking about of the times I don't get a crit on my first spell, because then I generally don't need to a second spell cast on the Bulb. And of those times I need a second spell cast, it's usually a second Fire or a Firestarter proc, not a Blizzard III. Only about 10% of the time that it's a Blizzard III does this happen so that Blizzard III lands a split second after it died. And the only reason I can make that % assessment is because that's been happening since before 2.3, but it's only after 2.3 that it's caused AF3 to drop -without- giving me UI3.

You are right about there being overall dps problems that need to be addressed in our group, as we've had other fights (namely T7) where we have more dps than we need for one phase, but then fall short on another phase, but until those are dealt with, I have to make sure my dps is in there at the right moments when it's needed, even if it risks something like on rare occasions triggering this bug, since killing the bulbs fast enough is more important than skipping the second honey (for the T6 example).

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

I'm not getting interrupted, which is what you're insisting is happening

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I know you are not interrupted, i never thinked that way

But your hit land after the mob is dead => you wasted a cast since the damage you whould have done are wasted anyway on a dead corpse => you should never waste a cast vital like blizzard 3 => cast time of blizzard 3 while in AF3 is ridicusly small and if in that little time frame the mob die and you don't get UI3 it means that you should have switched targets before cast B3

We are not misunderstending you as you beleave. The wasted cast matter is not "getting interrupted" but cast a spell that won't help in the fight (i.e. beating a dead horse :D ) and come here asking why you didn't get your UI stack. The answer is that that situation must not happen. You have varius way to do so and should adjust your play accordingly

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Originally Posted by Xisin

...I don't think this is a bug though, its a probably a result of the flare fixes they have done. (much like the fire/ice ticks from 2.0 -> 2.1) Thanks for posting about the change.. but really if three people seem to have misunderstood what you were conveying... eh.

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I've seen mention of these changed mana ticks ever since 2.1 dropped, but I've never noticed them myself. Can you elaborate on what's changed with the mana ticks specifically since 2.1? The only difference I saw was mana ticks being missed because of the delay in the application of Umbral Ice, and not so much a change to mana ticks themselves.

Double post for some reason O.o

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Originally Posted by Adamantium

I've seen mention of these changed mana ticks ever since 2.1 dropped, but I've never noticed them myself. Can you elaborate on what's changed with the mana ticks specifically since 2.1? The only difference I saw was mana ticks being missed because of the delay in the application of Umbral Ice, and not so much a change to mana ticks themselves.

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At start ppl didn't get that the difference was the remove of UI before the hit and a legend about mana tiks started. Nothing changed in mana tik but you just loosed UI before of when they where used

I've noticed something similar to what you're talking about, but never on normal enemies. :confused:

Back when we had the old Astral/Umbral system, if you were to cast a Blizzard III that lands right as Titan becomes un-targetable and jumps out of the arena, the cast would miss and you'd remain in Astral III. Not a big deal.

However, if were to do the same thing post-patch, not only would you still not receive Umbral III, but your Astral III would be removed also - leaving you with nothing.

This happens because Astral is removed upon completion of the cast, but the Umbral application is dependent upon the Blizzard III actually landing while the mob is still a valid target.

The switch mechanic, which used to be a seamless transition before, now has a slight delay between removal and application, making what you describe possible, albeit extremely rare.
I've reached the character length cap, so i'll explain more in a 2nd post :p

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Originally Posted by Adamantium

I've seen mention of these changed mana ticks ever since 2.1 dropped, but I've never noticed them myself. Can you elaborate on what's changed with the mana ticks specifically since 2.1? The only difference I saw was mana ticks being missed because of the delay in the application of Umbral Ice, and not so much a change to mana ticks themselves.

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In 2.0 the ice to fire phase was fairly seamless with perks, you never really had to wait out an interval of time or use filler... it just transitioned cleanly into Af everytime w/o fail. A better perk to th 2.0 ice phase was that the first fire (if buffered after fire 3) got the benefit of umbral ice 3 casting speed (like 1.6ish seconds on a fire) with all the potency of an AF3 cast. in 2.1 they changed how ice/fire phases worked via when the buff was applied, the last tick of ice was essentially removed if you just didn't stop casting during the ice phase, this is when the filler spell practice started.

^Continuing from previous post.

On regular enemies, most of you can probably attest to seeing one of your spells land when the enemy was technically already dead.
The most common and notable instance of this is landing a killshot with Fire, but weaving in a Firestarter straight afterwards anyway, leading to a ton of overkill damage that isn't needed, but is still displayed.

Now, in contrast, there are moments where you may have seen your spell land, but the damage was not displayed, likely due to (but not limited to) an invulnerability mechanic, or instance of leaving the arena.
In this scenario, where your damage was not displayed, is where your Fire III <> Blizzard III transition has the small probability of you being left with neither buff.

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Originally Posted by Xisin

In 2.0 the ice to fire phase was fairly seamless with perks, you never really had to wait out an interval of time or use filler... it just transitioned cleanly into Af everytime w/o fail. A better perk to th 2.0 ice phase was that the first fire (if buffered after fire 3) got the benefit of umbral ice 3 casting speed (like 1.6ish seconds on a fire) with all the potency of an AF3 cast. n 2.1 they changed how ice/fire phases worked via when the buff was applied on cast, thus ending this and resulting in a dps loss for blm.

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Right. I remember this, and I do miss it from time to time, but I've grown accustomed to it despite it feeling less fluid than before.

It's just that ever since 2.1 dropped, I would read posts from other people stating that mana ticks had been altered in some way, but to me it wasn't a direct change to the mana ticks themselves, but the altering of how AF3/UI3 were removed (switched to on-cast from on-hit like you stated) that resulted in the potential to miss mana ticks you would have previously received. Like Bloodline said, it felt more like a myth than anything.

I guess I was just being nit-picky and specific.

Edit: Clarification cause I'm silly.

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Originally Posted by LetBloodline

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The thing is, the cast isn't wasted since the primary purpose of Blizzard III is to switch to Umbral Ice 3. The fact that it also can do damage is secondary, as we'd still use Blizzard III at that point in our rotation even if it always did 0 damage. And, there's a 90% chance that the damage from the Blizzard III is, not only not wasted, but crucial to killing the Bulb on time, thus making it necessary for me to cast that spell at that time, which you seem utterly oblivious to.

Look at your "logic" again. You have flatly stated "If there is a 10% chance the spell is not needed, do not cast it." which equates to "If there is a 90% chance you must cast that spell, do not cast it." Do you realize how dumb you sound?

And since it's only 10% of the time the already rare instances that I'm having to cast Blizzard III at that point in the bulb's existence, the chance of the bug screwing me over is low enough to be completely worth the risk since my damage (even from a mere Blizzard III in AF3) is almost always required to finish the bulb on time with our current overall DPS.

So no, contrary to your misguided idiocy, I'm not a bad blm, nor am I playing the situation wrong, nor am I "whining." I'm letting the rest of you know that if you end up with a Blizzard III landing around the time a mob dies, pay attention in case you also get the bug because it can royally screw your rotation if you don't notice it until it's too late. Since I'm aware of the bug now, I can compensate and keep it from completely screwing over my rotation, though it is still an inconvenience on the occasions it happens.

So get over yourself and take information for what it is so that you can be aware of it on the off chance it happens to you, too, rather than being a shitty blm who refuses to be aware of potential issues because you'd rather believe you're superior to everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Dextro

However, if were to do the same thing post-patch, not only would you still not receive Umbral III, but your Astral III would be removed also - leaving you with nothing.

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After which patch? 2.1? I've not had that particular issue. Invincible targets simply pop up "invincible" and no change in AF3/UI3 occurs. Though, that's specifically how I remember it being before 2.3, so I'll try testing it again next time someone resets a hunt mob while I'm in Astral Fire.