Hissatsu: Kaiten

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

"If you play perfectly it doesn't add complexity" Yeah ok, does anything at all? And im sure you yourself have felt good when learning how to use the skill while leveling, but decide to act like this is the best decision for no reason but to defend SE.

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hitting positional, using thirdeye on raidwides and not hitting ikishoten when you have 60+ kenki already isn't remotely playing perfectly, it's just the bare minimum

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Originally Posted by Enjuden

Here's the thing with Kaiten. It can be something else if developers want to use it for something else. It's little more than a damage buff for the next ogcd, however it's a player decision that is more than just 'dump meter into ogcd action that does damage', which all dps jobs unfortunately have and that is what they do. Kaiten is different in the regard of at least giving a different flavor of meter dump into damage. I guess Machinist has Reassemble as something similar in that regard. Maybe they could make it more interesting by buffing end of combo damage more than Iaijitsu so that there is some more decision making with meter use.

There's a reason JP is livid and letting the 'Ooo, let everything convert to Summoner crowd' be trampled into the dirt this time. It's not even button bloat that's the problem. It's idiotic decisions that are made THIS EXPANSION where they consolidate skills but magically decide Ikishoten shouldn't convert into Ogi Namikiri for..some reason? The 'bloat' is literally SE's fault, and why they choose to remove Kaiten when they can remove nothing is why people are mad.

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I know and understand why players are upset. I'm among them, but have felt SAM has gone awry since 6.0. The downward spiral hit me in the gut with the decision to remove Seigan. I underestimated just how much this would impact how SAM feels in combat. Removing Kaiten will no doubt impact how SAM feels even further.

That's what leads me to my main issues with SAM. They are stripping the job of what wasn't even a problem, and have added what no one was even asking for. The removal of Kaiten by itself is not the issue, it's the decision to fix what wasn't even broken.

If the issue is that you'll always have Kenki to be able to use Kaiten before an Iaijutsu then I'd rather they just nerf Kenki generation. No reason to kill a class mechanic instead.

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Originally Posted by baklava151

If the issue is that you'll always have Kenki to be able to use Kaiten before an Iaijutsu then I'd rather they just nerf Kenki generation. No reason to kill a class mechanic instead.

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The issue is (and always has been, ESPECIALLY IN SHADOWBRINGERS) crit variance. For instance, when you had BiS in Shadowbringers, a crit direct hit Midare does 180,000 damage but a normal one does 80,000 damage. How else do you fix that without making SAM overpowered or underpowered?

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Originally Posted by localareanetwork

You don't manage it because doing your rotation normally always no matter what just gets you the needed kenki for everything you use it on

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So we’re gonna pretend that this stuff doesn’t exist:

-downtime because of mechs where you can’t generate kenki
-party buffs
-AST cards
-needing kenki for movement

Even if you treat the sam rotation as if it’s being done on a target dummy, it obviously generates enough kenki for kaiten because otherwise there would be a resource generation problem with the job.

Also Im starting ot believe people are straight up jumping to defend no matter what this decision since a lot of people are just saying "it doesn't add complexity"... yet the post itself said its not about that. Just repeating the same thing over and over and pretending other people are idiots for not knowing this is insulting.

Misshapenchair hits the nail on the head with why the changes make Samurai and less interesting and well designed job:

https://youtu.be/XIHj-1_Yn1U

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Originally Posted by localareanetwork

The issue is (and always has been, ESPECIALLY IN SHADOWBRINGERS) crit variance. For instance, when you had BiS in Shadowbringers, a crit direct hit Midare does 180,000 damage but a normal one does 80,000 damage. How else do you fix that without making SAM overpowered or underpowered?

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I'm not understanding what that has to do with removing Kaiten but that sounds like a wider issue with how crit works in this game.

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Originally Posted by Amh_Wilzuun

So we’re gonna pretend that this stuff doesn’t exist:

-downtime because of mechs where you can’t generate kenki
-party buffs
-AST cards
-needing kenki for movement

Even if you treat the sam rotation as if it’s being done on a target dummy, it obviously generates enough kenki for kaiten because otherwise there would be a resource generation problem with the job.

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1. Use meditate during downtime.
2. Party buffs come up naturally when you reapply your dot and use ogi, so you'll have Ikishoten
3. Dunno how AST cards have anything to do with SAM Kenki Management. AST Cards are RNG so you can't possibly plan for when you get a melee card. Unrelated but I play AST too and I hate when it gives me too much of melee or ranged.
4. You're talking about the dash, I assume? You primarily use it to cancel knockback effects that you don't arms length. Which doesn't happen at all in this raid tier. The only time you use the dash at all even is when Hesperos uses Kothornos Kick after you soak your tower during Act 3. And even then, it's only 10 gauge, that's just one Sen combo

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Originally Posted by baklava151

I'm not understanding what that has to do with removing Kaiten but that sounds like a wider issue with how crit works in this game.

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Nerfing SAM's Kenki generation would just make it suck if you didn't buff it elsewhere, which I don't know how you'd buff it enough to make up for the massive damage nerf from having less gauge without making it overpowered.