why are people so resistant to constructive criticism about the game?

My issue usually arises with players from other games (not that it’s a bad thing) I love new players and perspectives but as someone already said some of these players ask for things that would change the game at its core. Yes this game needs a lot of changes in certain areas especially content but I think people forget the amount of work that goes into an MMO, I help develop smaller platform games and that alone is a hassle with a team and now you’re talking about a huge live online game.....a lot of the asks are really hard to produce and keep everyone happy at the same time. “You want more savage/ultimate well now we have to cut back on other things such as dungeons and 24 man raids” that’s an extreme example but this is the budget and team size SE is working with on this game

Also this is not new at all in the MMO genre, I’ve been eaten alive in my early WoW experiences as well as ESO and BDO. These are all games with just as an emotional community as this one, you have to learn to take it with a grain of salt and move forward knowing you put your point out there wether liked or not.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Ahhh, gotcha. I was taking it as the overall idea that male Viera should be a thing is the delusion itself, and that I'd take some issue with. :X Sorry for the misunderstanding.

But I do completely agree with your comment here. It's one thing to really hope for something, maybe even to push strongly for it, but at the end of the day it all boils down to being SE's decision on how/if they implement something. Probably not a good idea to set hard deadlines for things happening in game, unless of course they just really like dealing with disappointment.

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You're good! I figured my point didn't come across clearly. I think I typed that up while falling asleep last night anyways. But you're right, wanting something is fine as long as we realize that SE has the say on if / when it's implemented. I don't think 6.0 is a reasonable expectation given how much trouble these two races have already given them.

To the actual subject since I don't want to drag too off topic, people are opposed to criticism because they're taking it as an insult rather than constructive criticism. I've tried a few times over the past few years to help people and it's usually met with a snarky comment. So I've ceased trying.

LOL, you post too fast, I didn't even see it while trying to catch up on the thread.

Anyways, just a few comments:

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I meant players shouldn't put themselves into the position of gate keeper. That they are in no position to slap their seal on things, and are regularly proven wrong and yet still attempt to do so. I was just addressing that concept.

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One thing I would say is that no one can be an actual gate keeper unless they're an in-game bully, which is a reportable offense.

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True that nothing is free, but wouldn't you also say it's true we've no idea what they've secretly worked on, what they secretly WANT to work on, who is free, who isn't, who would be willing to put in extra hours because they see some value people want? That we don't have an adequate concept to actually plan our their resources?

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And that is why all we can do is voice our opinions, both in support of some ideas as well in opposition of other ideas. Let SE deal with the rest. It's just that places where ideas are shared can be places of arguments, which can be fun, but can also be unproductive or, worse, toxic.

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Like using lore as an example as I see that fairly often, difference from saying something is unlikely because of x and can't because of x when the only reason it would be can't is because a refusal to believe in wiggle room or that new lore can be added. NO WAY EMET CAN COME BACK, ignores the fact they could have flash backs, ptsd, fragments, or what have you- no actually you're not right in say it's impossible, but you could say its unlikely because reasons.

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This is essentially my argument for removing race-class restriction in WoW. The lore argument to keep it just doesn't hold true and people don't realize that lore doesn't (and maybe shouldn't) be static, at least not entirely.

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Hear, feel, think. XD.

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So, no room to speak then. :cool: The internet might be much emptier, hmm, probably for the better in some cases.

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Originally Posted by linayar

LOL, you post too fast, I didn't even see it while trying to catch up on the thread.

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VROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMM. :D

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Originally Posted by linayar

One thing I would say is that no one can be an actual gate keeper unless they're an in-game bully, which is a reportable offense.

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Technically true, doesn't stop people from acting like what they say is the law SE must follow though. :p

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Originally Posted by linayar

And that is why all we can do is voice our opinions, both in support of some ideas as well in opposition of other ideas. Let SE deal with the rest. It's just that places where ideas are shared can be places of arguments, which can be fun, but can also be unproductive or, worse, toxic.

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Yee, yee indeed!

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Originally Posted by linayar

This is essentially my argument for removing race-class restriction in WoW. The lore argument to keep it just doesn't hold true and people don't realize that lore doesn't (and maybe shouldn't) be static, at least not entirely.

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I've started to coin it as the lore-no. Usually the people who use it are quite knowledgeable in the lore but they have restricted themselves very tightly around it too. For example I had asked for Tonberry beast tribe and was told that because they're not technically beasts that it couldn't be done. Now the person who said it I know isn't evil or whatever (generally quite nice), but instead of saying it's unlikely or that maybe the system could be fun but the concept of beast wont work so we'll need a different system they just flat out said it can't be done. Well wouldn't you find it funny when about two weeks later SE comes out with a beastmen lore book page that says it's more of a concept than a technical description of body, a racial word in essence or a usage that can be something akin to calling something third world. And wouldn't you find it even funnier if they released a beast tribe of lalafell in a subsequent expansion.. like.. wouldn't that be just... funny... . .. . . . Cause they did. XD.

Lore-no's usually lead me to the 'you weren't really trying to have this conversation were you?' feeling. Eager to share their knowledge, which is nice, but not eager to actaully engage the potential ways to make the concept a reality. Like SMN and it's egi thing, back before it had demi. Sometimes people really do suggest things that are like "you literally have to rip out the lore to do that, and there is no other possible way what so ever" but just like people suggesting FFXIV be an RTS.. those type of suggestions are not 'that' common.

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Originally Posted by linayar

So, no room to speak then. :cool: The internet might be much emptier, hmm, probably for the better in some cases.

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Loool. I cry :p.

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Originally Posted by linayar

This is essentially my argument for removing race-class restriction in WoW. The lore argument to keep it just doesn't hold true and people don't realize that lore doesn't (and maybe shouldn't) be static, at least not entirely.

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Out of context, I know, but just to use this one topic as a bit of a microcosm...

I feel like race-class restriction in WoW has followed pretty decently from the point and purpose of the game at its various times.

It started very restricted when the game was more about lore and world-building and distinct cultures. But every expansion since has softened those restrictions (be them by race or by faction) to some degree, just as the original lore, world, and their paradigms have been deemphasized. Until recently, what they allow in those regards has been reconsidered with each expansion, and at least to me it's always felt "right" at that time, perhaps because they played a good balance between protecting their intent and allowing what players less invested in those intents wanted (especially when they could shift their vision to accommodate those wants without sacrificing what they, the developers, wanted).

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Of course the more extreme example of someone asking for this game to go from MMORPG to RTS, well okay.. sure.. lol. Can't happen, insane for thinking so, but vast majority of feedback isn't to that wild of a scale. And as a smaller example, what can happen, is we do have LoV (kind of rts content). Now of course LoV is a bit of a red feathered step child chocobo of the black tipped choco family, but just an example that SE has a history of, and will continue to, branch out.

Just because you don't think it's likely, even if SE said they've difficulty achieving whatever desired feature, or you just don't like the idea at all doesn't mean it isn't potentially constructive criticism.

High quality very likely to be implemented perfectly in line with your world view constructive criticism, which is what I feel a lot of people are 'actually' looking for when they say that- well yeah that'll be far more rare lol.

Unless someone here is secretly actually working for SE at a high level position I find the people telling others off on their desires based on nothing more than 'it can't fit, because I say so- even though I've been repeatedly wrong before' tend to be more in the wrong than the person with the wild idea who may of jumped the shark a little.

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Thank you for you well thoughtout post. :) And I agree with it. Of course there will be people here that are posting certain topics just to get a rise out of people (but even in a troll thread you can find good discussion) and sadly a lot of people take the bait and just keep the thread going without any good points.

But we really should not take down people who have real concerns and wishes and post them. Of course a lot of those might be impossible or dont fit but asking for them hurt nobody and some of the reactions to such threads are often so harsh...Dont worry SE wont just suddenly change the whole game because of one person posting something about it. But that point could be used for other ways. Maybe it will spark some kind of other creative idea for them. Heck Yoshida himself said that he made the staff play MMOs like WoW to get a feeling of it.

And just to be sure. I dont mean that you cant be against the idea. Thats 100% fine. But the way some people post about it..wanting the person to unsub and get their stuff..wanting them to shut up and being quite passive agressive about it too..that also not constructive..but seemingly that is allowed in their eyes but a fine post about something, even if its something unlikely, is seen as the bad thing..

FF14 players are passionate about the game. Some can handle the game being critized and do it themselves, others cannot handle it and object sometimes loudly.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Out of context, I know, but just to use this one topic as a bit of a microcosm...

I feel like race-class restriction in WoW has followed pretty decently from the point and purpose of the game at its various times.

It started very restricted when the game was more about lore and world-building and distinct cultures. But every expansion since has softened those restrictions (be them by race or by faction) to some degree, just as the original lore, world, and their paradigms have been deemphasized. Until recently, what they allow in those regards has been reconsidered with each expansion, and at least to me it's always felt "right" at that time, perhaps because they played a good balance between protecting their intent and allowing what players less invested in those intents wanted (especially when they could shift their vision to accommodate those wants without sacrificing what they, the developers, wanted).

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What do you think is their intent? (I've heard it say race-class restrictions had to do with balancing the race population so that people just don't end up as one popular race, but I feel like each race has enough following and it really shouldn't matter in the end.)

And with the new universal (mandatory for new players, optional for older players) starting area, I think Shadowlands is a really fitting point to remove all restrictions. Although the expansion after when players return to Azeroth (maybe) could also work.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Lore-no's usually lead me to the 'you weren't really trying to have this conversation were you?' feeling. Eager to share their knowledge, which is nice, but not eager to actaully engage the potential ways to make the concept a reality. Like SMN and it's egi thing, back before it had demi. Sometimes people really do suggest things that are like "you literally have to rip out the lore to do that, and there is no other possible way what so ever" but just like people suggesting FFXIV be an RTS.. those type of suggestions are not 'that' common.
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"stares wondering" =w=

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Originally Posted by linayar

What do you think is their intent? (I've heard it say race-class restrictions had to do with balancing the race population so that people just don't end up as one popular race, but I feel like each race has enough following and it really shouldn't matter in the end.)

And with the new universal (mandatory for new players, optional for older players) starting area, I think Shadowlands is a really fitting point to remove all restrictions. Although the expansion after when players return to Azeroth (maybe) could also work.

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There's probably several reasons for them not removing it, but I think a big one is they don't want to make unique totems and beast forms for every race, which is something people would definitely expect should they open up Shaman and Druid to everyone.