I DON'T like Stormblood RDM

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

What i do know, is that RDM and SMN would just need to have their overall contribution increased to warrant the gap between them and BLM.

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I know it is hard to analyze, but the idea being that it doesn't exclude potency buffs, it just serves as an equalizer in some of the more frustrating aspects of being a caster. Having abundant overflow capacity for Mana means you could reserve a melee combo for movement where it allows, instead of having to stutter step or resort to VerScathe, or if stutter stepping is possible, more room to store more mana to prevent overflow if a raid window is opening up.

Practically speaking, this is a 'neutral' change in terms of potential DPS, but should be a notable uptick in terms of practical DPS - Which is what the Shadowbringers changes largely did for Black Mage, with the exception of Despair and even more enhanced Enochian, which is where a fair amount of its damage potential increase came from.

Manafication is largely a change to let Red Mage -get it on- like everyone else does at the start, however with this mind it would work better as a +80/80 in the 160 gauge state.

And Embolden, aside from being a straight buff, also allows the Red Mage to more readily capitalize on its own windows with more frequent use and a duration that matches (10.5 total seconds for a melee combo, though the damage is done by 8.0, so it all gets the 10% increase).

I think this serves to not only close to gap but make playing a Red Mage 'feel' better. From a hard RDPS standpoint, the Embolden changes alone should increase the "RDPS given" value by nearly double by virtue of no more decay and affecting casters, while having more individual control over Red Mage's outgoing damage and pacing should make reaching the maximum less RNG dependent. Affecting casters also means you don't have this weird case where the only two caster set up you would want auto excludes red mages.

Regarding Summoner, I've got too much "I want to change everything about it" to offer a bandaid fix, but moving Egi Assaults to the GCD and greatly increasing their potency would be the path I'd take, as well as completely turning pets into visuals and sourcing their attacks from the Summoner (AKA - no more ghosting attacks)

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Originally Posted by geekgirl101

Personally I'm blaming a fair amount of this on how ShB raids are designed as well as how flawed the jobs are. They're hyper-tuned for expert players with barely any breathing space between using abilities and dodging mechanics, and as such means unless you're one of the top 4 DPS classes in the game you'll be the first one to blame if you don't beat the enrage and won't get accepted into the more difficult content. Some raid groups would be ok with taking RDM, NIN and SMN in their current state if it wasn't for the demand in needing to do x amount of DPS in x amount of time, so when raid groups fail to beat the enrage after a flawless run they're gonna turn to the RDM, NIN and SMN, blame them for being low DPS and replace them. I even see raid groups in PF with messages like "don't bring low DPS or kick" whilst only admitting BLM, MNK, DRG and SAM as DPS roles. This is exactly what SE said only a couple of years ago they were trying to avoid and why they would not add DPS parsers in the game. They have inadvertently created meta classes and discrimination against the more weaker classes.

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So, my previous posts should make it clear that I'm not a fan of SE's encounter design or tunneled focus on DPS checks as the defacto pass-fail assessment.

But keep in mind, overall, this is one of the easier tiers in the lifespan of this game, contested only by early Delta and Alphascape. Midas Savage and Ultimate are fights designed and tuned to the elite of the playerbase; Creator Savage, and all tiers based on it including Eden's Gate by their own admission, specifically chose to make Savage more accessible. The only thing odd about Eden is that the major spike in required rDPS is between 1 and 2, and not 2 and 3 like most tiers Creator and later.

SE's intended goal with this is likely that the best groups can clear at min-ilvl, and everyone else catches up later as gear gives them a leg up. I don't think this is bad, necessarily, except that without other types of challenge being stressed in fights groups will hit Enrage early and then get stuck there. If progression were slower because fights were harder in other ways, and people thus were more geared by the time they hit a given enrage, this might be less of an issue. Of course, it's variable depending on player skill, and I'm not sure that's something SE can take into account with much granularity without making still more difficulty tiers past normal, EX, Savage, Ultimate, which I don't think is on the table. Compressing difficulty level further is not something I want to see either; if Savage were tuned to a level more akin to EX, that would leave an Ultimate fight per YEAR as the only content made with high level players in mind.

So long as DPS checks remain the principle challenge in EX+ content, this issue will only get worse. Easier fights, harder enrages. There are plenty of other ways to add challenge to fights besides tight enrages.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

BLM just needs to share niches, it can't be a viable option in prog if thats RDMs only niche because SMN challenges RDM on that front. The same holds true for RDM, RDM can't be a viable option for high optimization groups because thats BLM niche and SMN already challenges it on that front. currently, RDM is playing by those rules and isn't seeing any success in high speed optimization where as BLM is being a bit greedy and dominating RDM in recorded progression runs. This is the core problem right now that BLM faced prior to their buffs in SB, and RDM faced until the same point in patch 4,4

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To me, the solution there is actually make RDM effective in the prog role. Give them support abilities that actually keep the party ALIVE without tanking the RDM's own DPS, because weakness is too big a detriment to make Raise the cornerstone of their support.

Then, for optimization, put RDM's raw casting DPS significantly behind BLM as it is now, and let the gap be filled with proper timing of melee combo, giving RDM decent auto-attacks so they're rewarded for maintaining "uptime" in a similar manner to a melee, and making rDPS buffs (Embolden, maybe the Reflect type defensive I and others have recommended) better. Gives things for a RDM skill-gap, and, imo, optimally in a very good party that lines up buffs and feeds a cannon like a BLM supports should exceed selfish in rDPS. Because they can only GET there when working with the huge pDPS of a cannon. Damage raising buffs are pointless in my opinion if they don't lead to an overall increase in partywide DPS used properly.

The intended party DPS composition would become 1 Ranged, 1 Caster, 1 Melee, 1 Cannon, where 0-1 of the non-cannon slots could also be cannons depending on party composition (what are the tanks and healers?) and preference.

The problem this runs into is the "in-betweeners": SUM, BRD, maybe MNK if it stops being superior to SAM as a selfish DPS.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

You have mentioned this for Red Mage, some have mentioned it for Bard, Ninja is a cavalcade of issues, so on and so forth.

For example, I know you mentioned that Melee windows are unreliable for the Red Mage and another has mentioned Embolden doesn't line up well. Do you think this following list would result in satisfactory positive results:

1. Mana Gauge extended to 160
2. Manafication is +50/+50 instead of 'doubles current'
3. Embolden is 10s of +10%, 60s cooldown, 2 charges. [This one being a straight numerical buff]

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This'd likely be a good first step to take. Mana gauge extension also serves to be allowed to save your burst for a better position, Manafication works better in the 160 scenario since you won't be waiting for natural 80/80 to turn into 160/160, and the embolden is a much needed straight buff, and with charges it can much more easily line up with any group.

In some aspects, it'd make some things overall more accessible and easier, yet I feel like in other aspects such a change would make the gameplay a bit deeper, e.g. wait for 133/153 to get 2 combos off (or differently when combined with manafication) while waiting for a burst phase to make full use of it, or throw it quicker? That could depend on the party composition in question.

There'd be both pdps and rdps buff in this, but it wouldn't immediately encroach on BLM's territory, and it's fine if smaller steps are taken towards an end result that is more satisfactory, with the gap being closed but not so much as to kill BLM's niche, which is what I've been saying all along...

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Originally Posted by kajv95

There'd be both pdps and rdps buff in this, but it wouldn't immediately encroach on BLM's territory, and it's fine if smaller steps are taken towards an end result that is more satisfactory, with the gap being closed but not so much as to kill BLM's niche, which is what I've been saying all along...

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The biggest reason it wouldn't 'encroach' on Black Mage is that we'd be removing this hostile caster relationship that exists with Embolden being a physical only booster. Allowing them to boost magic damage isn't only a general buff, but removes the unnecessary barrier that naturally existed - The Red mage -doesn't want other casters-, and other casters -don't want a red mage-.

This comes back to another post that wasn't expanded enough upon, and it's that having a fourth DPS role for the 'Cannons' would add another lever. Where you can dump Black Mage, Samurai, and Machinist, tune them in their void there, and add additional levers for tuning. In this regard you could completely tune the out-of-box damage between every DPS role to be the same.

This not only simplifies a few matters (Ninja - Dragoon - Monk no longer have to encroach on Samurai in their tuning, same with Bard/Dancer and Machinist, and Summoner/Red Mage and Black mage), but our Full House party bonus can be increased to better encourage a 4 set without crippling a 3 set. You can increase the buffing capabilities of the 3 other roles, and encourage bringing the "Cannon" by making it so they -benefit more-.

This satisfies the greater RDPS, lower PDPS dynamic that's been argued for, but isn't currently possible, since you'd be A) A Subpar support job outside 8 mans and B) there's not enough a difference between the jobs in a more acceptable balance state for Samurai/Black Mage / Machinist to be desirable.

If Black Mage gets twice the benefit from buffs brought by a team, their 'RDPS' contribution is exactly the same as out of box, but their PDPS scales exponentially which feeds back into increasing the "RDPS" value of the supporters. The lack of raise is no longer an issue - Machinist and Samurai also don't have it, and if you're a good cannon, it won't matter what Cannon you play (Well in theory at least) - You have a place.

But I doubt we'll see that happen. Potency buffs for erebody!

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Lets give BLM even MORE Damage with more potential utility buffs so they maintain their supreme DPS.
The thought of another class competing for numbers will make the BLM feel inferior if they deal less than others in the party.

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Why not share the spotlight, and let everyone compete? Or is there a underlying fear of being left out because they simply arent performing good enough, and need an extra buffer to make sure they always have spot no matter how bad they play?

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Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

Why not share the spotlight, and let everyone compete? Or is there a underlying fear of being left out because they simply arent performing good enough, and need an extra buffer to make sure they always have spot no matter how bad they play?

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Did you literally just write your own text into a quote box so you could create this strawman?

Just tl;dr'ed the core of everything that has been said. No strawman here, just simplifying, a summary if you will.

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Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

Just tl;dr'ed the core of everything that has been said. No strawman here, just simplifying, a summary if you will.

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Let me help you. I'll use small words.

"IF BLACK MAGE IS 12k, THEN SO IS NINJA."

"IF NINJA GIVES 3% MORE RDPS, IT GIVES THE BLACK MAGE 6%"

"BLACK MAGE RDPS: 12,000"

"NINJA RDPS: 12,720"

Needs tuning, but if you took more than a minute to digest, that's the outcome you should have come to.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Let me help you. I'll use small words.

"IF BLACK MAGE IS 12k, THEN SO IS NINJA."

"IF NINJA GIVES 3% MORE RDPS, IT GIVES THE BLACK MAGE 6%"

"BLACK MAGE RDPS: 12,000"

"NINJA RDPS: 12,720"

Needs tuning, but if you took more than a minute to digest, that's the outcome you should have come to.

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Ah, then I apolegize for miss-reading. The end result does seem fair if thats how they do it. Should satisfy everyone involved.

And this is exactly the point I have been trying to get accross for god knows how long. the small words you just wrote.
But apparently that has been shot down so much by so many. Especially SAM BLM and MNK mains.

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Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

Ah, then I apolegize for miss-reading. The end result does seem fair if thats how they do it. Should satisfy everyone involved.

And this is exactly the point I have been trying to get accross for god knows how long. the small words you just wrote.
But apparently that has been shot down so much by so many. Especially SAM BLM and MNK mains.

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Our current system really doesn't support it, which is why there's a whole blurb of set up.

In our current system, to maintain that sort of parity means the RDPS bringers are severely lower on PDPS (and suffer in other parts of the game) or our PDPS aren't bringing anything worthwhile (And thus you could just use 4 RDPS and get a greater result)

That's my opinion at least. I think we need some structural change to really have that be an equitable set up, I dont' claim to speak for the others.